I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.

Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
loft?

In sci.physics Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:
> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>
> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
> loft?

A quick Google search of plumbing sites shows that the concensus is that
pipes usually burst at -7 C after about 6 hours with copper being the
most prone to burst and PEX the least prone.

On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>
> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
> loft?

I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
accurate details.

On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 20:27:13 -0600, whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
wrote:

>On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
>> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>>
>> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
>> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
>> loft?
>
>I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
>temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
>accurate details.

Yes, I'm sure max volume is at -4 C, so I suppose that is when pipes
are most likely to burst.

But as ice is solid, it doesn't leave the pipe, so the problem only
manifests itself when the temperature rises and the ice melts.

In article <jvd0c5F9jdbU1@mid.individual.net>,
whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> wrote:
> On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
> > I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
> >
> > Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
> > cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
> > loft?

> I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
> temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
> accurate details.

The pipe bursts with ice formation, but intil the ice thaws you don't
notice the leak.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 07/12/2022 22:49, Pamela wrote:
> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>
> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
> loft?

It is better to insulate them. The pipe will burst when the water
freezes solid right through on the weakest point on the pipe. You may
not notice this until the thaw comes and liquid water is free to flow again.

Foam insulation is very cheap, but anything over the pipes helps to
protect them from frost damage - even a strip of carpet will help.

Usually the position that freezes has some sort of exterior draft of
very cold air hitting it. I don't think there is a worst temperature -
the colder it is outside the colder it will be in the loft.

The damage might be done when the ice is at its maximum expansion but
you will have that state occur twice if the pipe gets even colder.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 09:21:51 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/12/2022 22:49, Pamela wrote:
>> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>>
>> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
>> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
>> loft?
>
>It is better to insulate them. The pipe will burst when the water
>freezes solid right through on the weakest point on the pipe. You may
>not notice this until the thaw comes and liquid water is free to flow again.
>
>Foam insulation is very cheap, but anything over the pipes helps to
>protect them from frost damage - even a strip of carpet will help.
>
>Usually the position that freezes has some sort of exterior draft of
>very cold air hitting it. I don't think there is a worst temperature -
>the colder it is outside the colder it will be in the loft.
>
>The damage might be done when the ice is at its maximum expansion but
>you will have that state occur twice if the pipe gets even colder.

If you have a non-return valve in the line, such as for an outside
tap, the non-return valve will initially prevent the expanding ice
from allowing pressure back up the pipe, but will eventually fail and
become completely knackered and refuse to allow water to pass in
either direction even after the thaw.

--
Chris

"Chris Hogg" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:psb3ph17mud9gnc8ufsi8ocee487c83cs1@4ax.com...
> If you have a non-return valve in the line, such as for an outside
> tap, the non-return valve will initially prevent the expanding ice
> from allowing pressure back up the pipe, but will eventually fail and
> become completely knackered and refuse to allow water to pass in
> either direction even after the thaw.

Thank you for the reminder. We have a water supply to the garage and to
outside taps around the garden. Although most of the pipe is blue plastic,
I'm sure some of it will be copper. I've just turned off all that pipework
at a tap inside the house - and opened the taps so any remaining water was
chance to expand out of the tap instead of expanding in the pipes.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 19:16:17 +1100, John Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 20:27:13 -0600, whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
>>> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>>>
>>> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
>>> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
>>> loft?
>>
>> I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
>> temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
>> accurate details.
>
> Yes, I'm sure max volume is at -4 C, so I suppose that is when pipes
> are most likely to burst.
>
> But as ice is solid, it doesn't leave the pipe, so the problem only
> manifests itself when the temperature rises and the ice melts.

Depends on where it burst. If it pushes a joint apart, you can see
the ice plug expelled from the now open end of the pipe when only
the joint area has frozen and the rest of the pipe back to the supply
isnt frozen.

I've not measured my piece of string lately.
My gut feeling is it depends on the sort of connectors, how long the pipe
is and how thick the walls are.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Pamela" <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:XnsAF66E81D8E51237B93@88.198.57.247...
>I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>
> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
> loft?

On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 00:50:45 UTC, chop wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 19:16:17 +1100, John Armstrong <j...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 20:27:13 -0600, whodat <who...@void.nowgre.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
> >>> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
> >>>
> >>> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
> >>> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
> >>> loft?
> >>
> >> I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
> >> temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
> >> accurate details.
> >
> > Yes, I'm sure max volume is at -4 C, so I suppose that is when pipes
> > are most likely to burst.
> >
> > But as ice is solid, it doesn't leave the pipe, so the problem only
> > manifests itself when the temperature rises and the ice melts.
> Depends on where it burst. If it pushes a joint apart, you can see
> the ice plug expelled from the now open end of the pipe when only
> the joint area has frozen and the rest of the pipe back to the supply
> isnt frozen.

I wonder whether vertical pipe runs will be less likely to freeze than
horizontal, as there is the possibility of convection spreading heat around
more easily. Has anyone noticed a difference?

John

In message <207e953c-97fa-4464-a8f6-a05cb03465c1n@googlegroups.com>,
John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> writes
>On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 00:50:45 UTC, chop wrote:
>> On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 19:16:17 +1100, John Armstrong <j...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 20:27:13 -0600, whodat <who...@void.nowgre.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
>> >>> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>> >>>
>> >>> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
>> >>> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
>> >>> loft?
>> >>
>> >> I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
>> >> temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
>> >> accurate details.
>> >
>> > Yes, I'm sure max volume is at -4 C, so I suppose that is when pipes
>> > are most likely to burst.
>> >
>> > But as ice is solid, it doesn't leave the pipe, so the problem only
>> > manifests itself when the temperature rises and the ice melts.
>> Depends on where it burst. If it pushes a joint apart, you can see
>> the ice plug expelled from the now open end of the pipe when only
>> the joint area has frozen and the rest of the pipe back to the supply
>> isnt frozen.
>
>I wonder whether vertical pipe runs will be less likely to freeze than
>horizontal, as there is the possibility of convection spreading heat around
>more easily. Has anyone noticed a difference?

Very bad idea to have an outdoor tap at the bottom of a pipe run!

--
Tim Lamb

On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 17:46:45 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <207e953c-97fa-4464...@googlegroups.com>,
> John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> writes
> >On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 00:50:45 UTC, chop wrote:
> >> On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 19:16:17 +1100, John Armstrong <j...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 20:27:13 -0600, whodat <who...@void.nowgre.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
> >> >>> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
> >> >>> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper pipes in a
> >> >>> loft?
> >> >>
> >> >> I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
> >> >> temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
> >> >> accurate details.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, I'm sure max volume is at -4 C, so I suppose that is when pipes
> >> > are most likely to burst.
> >> >
> >> > But as ice is solid, it doesn't leave the pipe, so the problem only
> >> > manifests itself when the temperature rises and the ice melts.
> >> Depends on where it burst. If it pushes a joint apart, you can see
> >> the ice plug expelled from the now open end of the pipe when only
> >> the joint area has frozen and the rest of the pipe back to the supply
> >> isnt frozen.
> >
> >I wonder whether vertical pipe runs will be less likely to freeze than
> >horizontal, as there is the possibility of convection spreading heat around
> >more easily. Has anyone noticed a difference?
> Very bad idea to have an outdoor tap at the bottom of a pipe run!

Shouldn't that be the other way round? Ice does tend to float!

John

In message <853b8733-d124-4dba-871a-903896fa80fcn@googlegroups.com>,
John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> writes
>On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 17:46:45 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <207e953c-97fa-4464...@googlegroups.com>,
>> John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> writes
>> >On Saturday, 10 December 2022 at 00:50:45 UTC, chop wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 19:16:17 +1100, John Armstrong
>> >><j...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 20:27:13 -0600, whodat <who...@void.nowgre.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On 12/7/2022 4:49 PM, Pamela wrote:
>> >> >>> I vaguely recall ice expands to its maximum volume at -4 C.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Would less cold temperatures (such as -2 C) for a sustained period
>> >> >>> cause ice to expand enough to burst uninsulated 15 mm copper
>> >> >>>pipes in a
>> >> >>> loft?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I vaguely recall something from my youth that pipe bursting happens of
>> >> >> temperature rise. Perhaps someone with some sensibility can provide
>> >> >> accurate details.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, I'm sure max volume is at -4 C, so I suppose that is when pipes
>> >> > are most likely to burst.
>> >> >
>> >> > But as ice is solid, it doesn't leave the pipe, so the problem only
>> >> > manifests itself when the temperature rises and the ice melts.
>> >> Depends on where it burst. If it pushes a joint apart, you can see
>> >> the ice plug expelled from the now open end of the pipe when only
>> >> the joint area has frozen and the rest of the pipe back to the supply
>> >> isnt frozen.
>> >
>> >I wonder whether vertical pipe runs will be less likely to freeze than
>> >horizontal, as there is the possibility of convection spreading heat around
>> >more easily. Has anyone noticed a difference?
>> Very bad idea to have an outdoor tap at the bottom of a pipe run!
>
>Shouldn't that be the other way round? Ice does tend to float!
Exactly. With the pipe sealed at the top, further freezing pressurises
the remaining water and bursts the pipe.

Garden standpipes were relatively safe from frost until non-return
valves were fitted to taps.

--
Tim Lamb