I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
sandstone has started to crumble.

(This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
This is not the subject of this posting.)

Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.

On 13/12/2022 17:04, Scott wrote:
> I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
> sandstone has started to crumble.
>
> (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
> of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
> This is not the subject of this posting.)
>
> Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
> undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
> can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.
>
Not really. You could fix a cover over it; a piece of tarpaulin or
something.

Bill

On Tuesday, 13 December 2022 at 17:04:14 UTC, Scott wrote:
> I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
> sandstone has started to crumble.
>
> (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
> of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
> This is not the subject of this posting.)
>
> Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
> undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
> can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.

If the cause is freeze thaw damage, and it usually is, directing water away from it can stop it. You'd need to know more what's going on before doing anything else

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:08:38 +0000
William Wright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

> On 13/12/2022 17:04, Scott wrote:
> > I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
> > sandstone has started to crumble.
> >
> > (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
> > of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
> > This is not the subject of this posting.)
> >
> > Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
> > undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
> > can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.
> >
> Not really. You could fix a cover over it; a piece of tarpaulin or
> something.
>
> Bill

I used to get spawling, brick surfaces eroding owing to the ingress of water.
This had been caused by a paved patio being right up to the house.
That wa cured by getting someon to cut the paving leaving an approx 6 inch trough al the way along. I fiolled that with medium-sized stones.

The main problem was to restore the bricks. I mixed rapid setting mortar with a plasticiser.
It worke a treat. I finished all off with an exterior paint, matching the wall.

My pal Ray needed cure an unpainted wall with bricks of varying red-brown colours.
He used dye. They used to stock it in Homebase but my nearest one closed down.
I would try something to match your stone.

HTH, Alan

--
Mint 20.3, kernel 5.4.0-132-generic, Cinnamon 5.2.7
running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 16GB of DRAM.

The problem is that if you try to stabilise the erosion by getting back to a
firm surface, you might get accused of causing damage. There used to be some
stuff for hardening off sandstone and other crumbly surfaces. You don't say
how far up from the ground it is, or whether the sandstone is just a very
thin cladding to make the block look right.
Is it under collective ownership, or is everyone leasing or renting? What
about preventative maintenance in the original contract and who pays for it.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mlbhphlsaqefq2sudknkreskm93oat5p8v@4ax.com...
>I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
> sandstone has started to crumble.
>
> (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
> of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
> This is not the subject of this posting.)
>
> Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
> undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
> can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 11:25:13 -0000
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is it under collective ownership, or is everyone leasing
> or renting?

It's a tenement so there is specific law to cover all aspects of rights
and responsibilities. See Tenements (Scotland) Act 2004 (needs to be
read in conjunction with the OP's deeds).

On Tuesday, 13 December 2022 at 22:20:23 UTC, pinnerite wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:08:38 +0000
> William Wright <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>
> > On 13/12/2022 17:04, Scott wrote:
> > > I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
> > > sandstone has started to crumble.
> > >
> > > (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
> > > of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
> > > This is not the subject of this posting.)
> > >
> > > Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
> > > undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
> > > can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.
> > >
> > Not really. You could fix a cover over it; a piece of tarpaulin or
> > something.
> >
> > Bill
> I used to get spawling, brick surfaces eroding owing to the ingress of water.
> This had been caused by a paved patio being right up to the house.
> That wa cured by getting someon to cut the paving leaving an approx 6 inch trough al the way along. I fiolled that with medium-sized stones.
>
> The main problem was to restore the bricks. I mixed rapid setting mortar with a plasticiser.
> It worke a treat. I finished all off with an exterior paint, matching the wall.
>
> My pal Ray needed cure an unpainted wall with bricks of varying red-brown colours.
> He used dye. They used to stock it in Homebase but my nearest one closed down.
> I would try something to match your stone.
>
> HTH, Alan

If you want to ensure further degradation that'll do it

On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:07:09 +0000, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 11:25:13 -0000
>"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is it under collective ownership, or is everyone leasing
>> or renting?
>
>It's a tenement so there is specific law to cover all aspects of rights
>and responsibilities. See Tenements (Scotland) Act 2004 (needs to be
>read in conjunction with the OP's deeds).

Yes, I have done all that. The Factors have said the work is not
urgent at the moment. The owners have voted 4-4 so there is no
majority decision to proceed.

I am looking at section 8 as an option but, although the wall is
clearly intended to provide shelter or support, my concern is that in
the absence of evidence that shelter or support is compromised, I may
face an argument that the repair is not necessary. I would prefer the
Factors - or a suitable competent person - to determine that it is. I
am in discussion with the Factors and a stonemason is due to visit.

My question to the group was whether there is anything I should do to
to mitigate the loss (if the stonemason is delayed due to Christmas /
New Year / weather).

Out of interest, if terms of (section 10, do I have a duty to obtain
competitive quotes or can I instruct a contractor of my own choice and
simply recover the cost? Do the words 'had the maintenance been
carried out by virtue of the management scheme in question' create a
need to obtain competitive quotes?

On Wednesday, 14 December 2022 at 22:41:26 UTC, Animal wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 December 2022 at 22:20:23 UTC, pinnerite wrote:
> > On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:08:38 +0000
> > William Wright <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 13/12/2022 17:04, Scott wrote:
> > > > I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
> > > > sandstone has started to crumble.
> > > >
> > > > (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
> > > > of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
> > > > This is not the subject of this posting.)
> > > >
> > > > Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
> > > > undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
> > > > can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.
> > > >
> > > Not really. You could fix a cover over it; a piece of tarpaulin or
> > > something.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > I used to get spawling, brick surfaces eroding owing to the ingress of water.
> > This had been caused by a paved patio being right up to the house.
> > That wa cured by getting someon to cut the paving leaving an approx 6 inch trough al the way along. I fiolled that with medium-sized stones.
> >
> > The main problem was to restore the bricks. I mixed rapid setting mortar with a plasticiser.
> > It worke a treat. I finished all off with an exterior paint, matching the wall.
> >
> > My pal Ray needed cure an unpainted wall with bricks of varying red-brown colours.
> > He used dye. They used to stock it in Homebase but my nearest one closed down.
> > I would try something to match your stone.
> >
> > HTH, Alan
> If you want to ensure further degradation that'll do it

Sand/Lime OTOH plays well with sandstone, and can be used. Porous enough to let damp evaporate, and doesn't trash the stone when it eventually fails. It's not usually needed & is ugly compared to stone, but if it is necessary lime works. Cement also damagess the stone if slight movement occurs, which is not unusual on old walls. From here we can't know what you actually need to do.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 10:06:07 -0800 (PST), Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, 14 December 2022 at 22:41:26 UTC, Animal wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 13 December 2022 at 22:20:23 UTC, pinnerite wrote:
>> > On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:08:38 +0000
>> > William Wright <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On 13/12/2022 17:04, Scott wrote:
>> > > > I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
>> > > > sandstone has started to crumble.
>> > > >
>> > > > (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
>> > > > of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
>> > > > This is not the subject of this posting.)
>> > > >
>> > > > Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
>> > > > undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
>> > > > can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.
>> > > >
>> > > Not really. You could fix a cover over it; a piece of tarpaulin or
>> > > something.
>> > >
>> > > Bill
>> > I used to get spawling, brick surfaces eroding owing to the ingress of water.
>> > This had been caused by a paved patio being right up to the house.
>> > That wa cured by getting someon to cut the paving leaving an approx 6 inch trough al the way along. I fiolled that with medium-sized stones.
>> >
>> > The main problem was to restore the bricks. I mixed rapid setting mortar with a plasticiser.
>> > It worke a treat. I finished all off with an exterior paint, matching the wall.
>> >
>> > My pal Ray needed cure an unpainted wall with bricks of varying red-brown colours.
>> > He used dye. They used to stock it in Homebase but my nearest one closed down.
>> > I would try something to match your stone.
>> >
>> > HTH, Alan
>> If you want to ensure further degradation that'll do it
>
>Sand/Lime OTOH plays well with sandstone, and can be used. Porous enough to let damp evaporate, and doesn't trash the stone when it eventually fails. It's not usually needed & is ugly compared to stone, but if it is necessary lime works. Cement also damagess the stone if slight movement occurs, which is not unusual on old walls. From here we can't know what you actually need to do.

Good point. As I explained to Rob, ultimately the repair needs to be
carried out professionally as a common repair with the cost shared
amongst all proprietors. My question at the moment is whether there
is anything I can do just to minimise further damage until the repair
can be undertaken without making the stonemason's job more difficult
of course.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 10:06:07 -0800 (PST)
Animal <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sand/Lime OTOH plays well with sandstone, and can be used. Porous
> enough to let damp evaporate, and doesn't trash the stone when it
> eventually fails. It's not usually needed & is ugly compared to
> stone, but if it is necessary lime works

I'd have thought that a splash of the right dye would make it blend
pretty well. There are specialist lime mortar suppliers that will
match a sample of old mortar, I wonder what would happen if you sent
them a bit of sandstone.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 13:18:31 +0000
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:07:09 +0000, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:

> Yes, I have done all that. The Factors have said the work is not
> urgent at the moment. The owners have voted 4-4 so there is no
> majority decision to proceed.
>
I was replying to Brian, I don't have any experience with Scottish
property law.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 20:09:13 +0000, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 13:18:31 +0000
>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:07:09 +0000, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I have done all that. The Factors have said the work is not
>> urgent at the moment. The owners have voted 4-4 so there is no
>> majority decision to proceed.
>>
>I was replying to Brian, I don't have any experience with Scottish
>property law.

Sorry. I assumed when you mentioned the Act you had some knowledge of
it.

On Thursday, 15 December 2022 at 18:19:07 UTC, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 10:06:07 -0800 (PST), Animal <tabb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, 14 December 2022 at 22:41:26 UTC, Animal wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, 13 December 2022 at 22:20:23 UTC, pinnerite wrote:
> >> > On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:08:38 +0000
> >> > William Wright <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On 13/12/2022 17:04, Scott wrote:
> >> > > > I live in a sandstone tenement block. Outside one of my windows the
> >> > > > sandstone has started to crumble.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > (This is a mutual repair that will require the consent of a majority
> >> > > > of the owners with legal provisions if consent cannot be obtained.
> >> > > > This is not the subject of this posting.)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Is there any form of temporary repair that I could and should be
> >> > > > undertaking to prevent further deterioration until permanent repairs
> >> > > > can be carried out taking account of the winter weather conditions.
> >> > > >
> >> > > Not really. You could fix a cover over it; a piece of tarpaulin or
> >> > > something.
> >> > >
> >> > > Bill
> >> > I used to get spawling, brick surfaces eroding owing to the ingress of water.
> >> > This had been caused by a paved patio being right up to the house.
> >> > That wa cured by getting someon to cut the paving leaving an approx 6 inch trough al the way along. I fiolled that with medium-sized stones.
> >> >
> >> > The main problem was to restore the bricks. I mixed rapid setting mortar with a plasticiser.
> >> > It worke a treat. I finished all off with an exterior paint, matching the wall.
> >> >
> >> > My pal Ray needed cure an unpainted wall with bricks of varying red-brown colours.
> >> > He used dye. They used to stock it in Homebase but my nearest one closed down.
> >> > I would try something to match your stone.
> >> >
> >> > HTH, Alan
> >> If you want to ensure further degradation that'll do it
> >
> >Sand/Lime OTOH plays well with sandstone, and can be used. Porous enough to let damp evaporate, and doesn't trash the stone when it eventually fails. It's not usually needed & is ugly compared to stone, but if it is necessary lime works. Cement also damagess the stone if slight movement occurs, which is not unusual on old walls. From here we can't know what you actually need to do.
> Good point. As I explained to Rob, ultimately the repair needs to be
> carried out professionally as a common repair with the cost shared
> amongst all proprietors. My question at the moment is whether there
> is anything I can do just to minimise further damage until the repair
> can be undertaken without making the stonemason's job more difficult
> of course.

If the damage is progressing, lime usually stops it by moving the saturated outer layer into the lime, ie the lime becomes sacrificial.
Lime is super easy to use, this is the wrong time of year though. Perhaps you could make it work with antifreeze but I don't know.

Yes renders can be dyed, even quite skilfully, but dye is not permanent, and tends to fail streakily. Easier to accept a white finish if acceptable.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 21:24:49 +0000
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> Sorry. I assumed when you mentioned the Act you had some knowledge of
> it.

That's the extent of my knowledge, I'm afraid.

On 14/12/2022 22:41, Animal wrote:
> If you want to ensure further degradation that'll do it

The very rustic and soft finish of the bricks used around my front door,
began to spall quite badly. What I did, was removed all the loose
surface and refaced with a strong mix of sand and cement, to match as
best I could the sound bricks. Once thoroughly dry, I painted all the
rustic bricks with masonry paint.

That was several years ago, it has worked fine and several similar
builds around me have followed my lead.

On 18/12/2022 12:03, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 14/12/2022 22:41, Animal wrote:
>> If you want to ensure further degradation that'll do it
>
> The very rustic and soft finish of the bricks used around my front door,
> began to spall quite badly. What I did, was removed all the loose
> surface and refaced with a strong mix of sand and cement, to match as
> best I could the sound bricks. Once thoroughly dry, I painted all the
> rustic bricks with masonry paint.
>
> That was several years ago, it has worked fine and several similar
> builds around me have followed my lead.

The usual way of doing it is to remove the entire brick
and put put it back in the other way around. Only works
if the bricks are faced all-around, some modern bricks
like LBC 'Tudor' are only faced one side and one end.
This meant that they had to be used frog-down on one
side of a window or door reveal.

On 18/12/2022 12:50, Andrew wrote:
> The usual way of doing it is to remove the entire brick
> and put put it back in the other way around. Only works
> if the bricks are faced all-around, some modern bricks
> like LBC 'Tudor' are only faced one side and one end.
> This meant that they had to be used frog-down on one
> side of a window or door reveal.

These were single faced, and far too crumbly to risk taking out.

On Sunday, 18 December 2022 at 12:04:03 UTC, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 14/12/2022 22:41, Animal wrote:
> > If you want to ensure further degradation that'll do it
> The very rustic and soft finish of the bricks used around my front door,
> began to spall quite badly. What I did, was removed all the loose
> surface and refaced with a strong mix of sand and cement, to match as
> best I could the sound bricks. Once thoroughly dry, I painted all the
> rustic bricks with masonry paint.
>
> That was several years ago, it has worked fine and several similar
> builds around me have followed my lead.

It's common practice. When the cement eventually lets go it takes off a layer of brick or stone with it. The bigger problem is that the reduced evaporation rate often results in much faster freeze thaw damage. Yes you can do it, but the long & widespread history of resulting history of resulting damage is why Spab advises against doing this on stonework.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:28:06 +0000, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 21:24:49 +0000
>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Sorry. I assumed when you mentioned the Act you had some knowledge of
>> it.
>
>That's the extent of my knowledge, I'm afraid.

My next thought is whether legal expenses cover [on my household
contents policy] will cover this at least to the extent of a short
consultation. Maybe not one for Christmas week though :-)

On 20/12/2022 11:24, Scott wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:28:06 +0000, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 21:24:49 +0000
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry. I assumed when you mentioned the Act you had some knowledge of
>>> it.
>>
>> That's the extent of my knowledge, I'm afraid.
>
> My next thought is whether legal expenses cover [on my household
> contents policy] will cover this at least to the extent of a short
> consultation. Maybe not one for Christmas week though :-)

You'd have to ask but legal expenses cover is generally for (a) disputes
which (b) you are likely to win. It's not clear to me you yet have a
dispute as such. And if you escalate to one, there seems to be no
hard/expert evidence that work needs to be done now. So perhaps wait at
least for the stonemason's view - though s/he may not be accepted by all
as an impartial expert if work's short currently.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid