Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
making the house any colder.

That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
cold snap which we've just been experiencing.

Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat losses,
and the house will never reach the desired temperature.

Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
risk of legionella.
--
Cheers,
Roger

On 17/12/2022 17:38, Roger Mills wrote:
> Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
> boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
> making the house any colder.

Setting the house thermostat a couple of degrees lower and wearing a
decent woolly jumper provides by far the biggest saving (short of
switching the heating off entirely - which causes other problems).
>
> That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
> efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
> cold snap which we've just been experiencing.

+1

OTOH at least they have given some approximately correct advice instead
of doing the classic Thick Lizzy "Ostrich with head in sand" dance.
>
> Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
> reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat losses,
> and the house will never reach the desired temperature.

Reducing the target temperature for the house and wearing some more
clothes when indoors is the most obvious way to save money on energy bills.

> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
> risk of legionella.

It isn't all that likely in a domestic setting unless you set the boiler
flow temperature very low indeed (too low to be useful in radiators).

Some people have their radiators so hot ~80C that they are a distinct
hazard to small children touching them.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 17/12/2022 17:38, Roger Mills wrote:
> Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
> boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
> making the house any colder.
>
> That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
> efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
> cold snap which we've just been experiencing.
>

yes, i recently had to turn mine up to get the house warm...

> Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
> reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat losses,
> and the house will never reach the desired temperature.
>
> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
> risk of legionella.

It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a tank
stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as the pump
will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return flow is too hot.

They are also claiming you can save £75/year by switching things off
when in standby. Even Which only claimed £30. I think each watt saves
around £2.50/year and as most modern items are under 0.5watt thats a lot
of old in-efficient appliances...

Dave

On 17/12/2022 17:49, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 17:38, Roger Mills wrote:
>> Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
>> boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
>> making the house any colder.
>
> Setting the house thermostat a couple of degrees lower and wearing a
> decent woolly jumper provides by far the biggest saving (short of
> switching the heating off entirely - which causes other problems).
>>
>> That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
>> efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
>> cold snap which we've just been experiencing.
>
> +1
>
> OTOH at least they have given some approximately correct advice instead
> of doing the classic Thick Lizzy "Ostrich with head in sand" dance.
>>
>> Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
>> reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat
>> losses, and the house will never reach the desired temperature.
>
> Reducing the target temperature for the house and wearing some more
> clothes when indoors is the most obvious way to save money on energy bills.
>
>> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
>> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
>> risk of legionella.
>
> It isn't all that likely in a domestic setting unless you set the boiler
> flow temperature very low indeed (too low to be useful in radiators).
>
> Some people have their radiators so hot ~80C that they are a distinct
> hazard to small children touching them.
>

They only do it once though. There are still plenty of
non-condensing boilers in use and should be set to ?90/70
which is going to mean some rads are going to be hot.

Anyone turning down the boiler temp on an old system
like this (if it is even possible) could result in the
flue temp dropping too low and go into condensing mode.
This is terminal for a non-condensing boiler.

On 17/12/2022 17:49, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 17:38, Roger Mills wrote:

>> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
>> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
>> risk of legionella.
>
> It isn't all that likely in a domestic setting unless you set the boiler
> flow temperature very low indeed (too low to be useful in radiators).

Possibly no risk at all if the dwelling is occupied a flow of
chlorinated mains water is input to the hot water system daily/weekly.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 17/12/2022 17:59, David Wade wrote:

> It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a tank
> stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as the pump
> will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return flow is too hot.

and with the estimate that most of the UKs boilers are oversized it will
result in more inefficient and faster short cycling.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article <k06kc2F7hs6U4@mid.individual.net>, alan_m
<junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 17:59, David Wade wrote:

> > It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a
> > tank stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as
> > the pump will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return
> > flow is too hot.

> and with the estimate that most of the UKs boilers are oversized it will
> result in more inefficient and faster short cycling.

my boiler (from 1988) can only just keep up with the recent cold spell.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 19:41:55 +0000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 17/12/2022 17:59, David Wade wrote:
>
>> It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a tank
>> stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as the pump
>> will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return flow is too hot.
>
>and with the estimate that most of the UKs boilers are oversized it will
>result in more inefficient and faster short cycling.
>
>

Yep, that's what I ran into. And that is in part because the
modulation ratio on my boiler is poor, 1:3. But trying to turn the
stat down works fine in the lounge but my study at the back is
currently at 15 - and the keyboard is cold to the touch.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 17/12/2022 17:49, Martin Brown wrote:

>
> Reducing the target temperature for the house and wearing some more
> clothes when indoors is the most obvious way to save money on energy bills.
>

I got some snuggle fleece onesies and a USB heated waistcoat/vest. Much
more comfortable than trousers and jumpers. I really like the way the
heat distributes inside the baggy one piece clothing, with no waist
constriction. Stunningly warm, for sitting at the computer.

The only real downside is I have to change when I want to go outdoors.
It would be good if there was something similar to a onesie that could
be worn inside and outside. Something like a quilted boiler suit. I
tried one but, I got the wrong side, and it was a bit heavy. I don't
want a coverall/overall I want something light and instead of normal
clothes.

I think heated/temperature controlled clothes, could be very significant.

On 17/12/2022 20:44, charles wrote:
> In article <k06kc2F7hs6U4@mid.individual.net>, alan_m
> <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2022 17:59, David Wade wrote:
>
>>> It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a
>>> tank stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as
>>> the pump will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return
>>> flow is too hot.
>
>> and with the estimate that most of the UKs boilers are oversized it will
>> result in more inefficient and faster short cycling.
>
> my boiler (from 1988) can only just keep up with the recent cold spell.
>
Yeah. i made a mistake when I specced mine, I didnt think about 'heat up
from freezing cold'.

The boiler ran nearly 24 hrs non stop when it tripped two days ago, to
get the house back up. Then it tripped again on restart.
--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On 17/12/2022 22:39, Pancho wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 17:49, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>>
>> Reducing the target temperature for the house and wearing some more
>> clothes when indoors is the most obvious way to save money on energy
>> bills.
>>
>
> I got some snuggle fleece onesies and a USB heated waistcoat/vest. Much
> more comfortable than trousers and jumpers. I really like the way the
> heat distributes inside the baggy one piece clothing, with no waist
> constriction. Stunningly warm, for sitting at the computer.
>
> The only real downside is I have to change when I want to go outdoors.
> It would be good if there was something similar to a onesie that could
> be worn inside and outside. Something like a quilted boiler suit. I
> tried one but, I got the wrong side, and it was a bit heavy. I don't
> want a coverall/overall I want something light and instead of normal
> clothes.

Ski stuff. Sorta padded romper suit
>
> I think heated/temperature controlled clothes, could be very significant.
>
>
>

--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

On 17/12/2022 22:39, Pancho wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 17:49, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>>
>> Reducing the target temperature for the house and wearing some more
>> clothes when indoors is the most obvious way to save money on energy
>> bills.
>>
>
> I got some snuggle fleece onesies and a USB heated waistcoat/vest. Much
> more comfortable than trousers and jumpers. I really like the way the
> heat distributes inside the baggy one piece clothing, with no waist
> constriction. Stunningly warm, for sitting at the computer.
>
> The only real downside is I have to change when I want to go outdoors.
> It would be good if there was something similar to a onesie that could
> be worn inside and outside. Something like a quilted boiler suit. I
> tried one but, I got the wrong side, and it was a bit heavy. I don't
> want a coverall/overall I want something light and instead of normal
> clothes.
>
> I think heated/temperature controlled clothes, could be very significant.

Many years ago, when camping at a drag racing meet in a cold November, a
friend had a Swedish army (IIRC) sleeping bag. Very warm and in the
morning he could just unzip down the front and back of the lower part
and rezip them to themselves and the bottom half became trouser legs.

On 17/12/2022 19:41, alan_m wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 17:59, David Wade wrote:
>
>> It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a
>> tank stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as
>> the pump will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return
>> flow is too hot.
>
> and with the estimate that most of the UKs boilers are oversized it will
> result in more inefficient and faster short cycling.

I'm glad to say that that is not happening here.

When I first moved here, I sized the boiler and radiators myself, using
the calculations in a book from the library. It worked out at 11kW.

Since then we have added a (heated) conservatory, but now have a 15kW
boiler.

We have also changed the system, so each room has it's own
timer/thermostat and motorised valve and radiator sizes have been
increased to allow a lower running temperature, but the boiler has a 6:1
modulation range - in fact from our gas meter readings, it appears that
it can even modulate a little lower than quoted.

We have been running it at 60°C, but have had to up it a little for the
unusual cold of the last week and to replenish the hot-water cylinder
fast enough on days of heavy usage.

On 18/12/2022 11:37, SteveW wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 19:41, alan_m wrote:
>> On 17/12/2022 17:59, David Wade wrote:
>>
>>> It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a
>>> tank stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as
>>> the pump will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return
>>> flow is too hot.
>>
>> and with the estimate that most of the UKs boilers are oversized it
>> will result in more inefficient and faster short cycling.
>
> I'm glad to say that that is not happening here.
>
> When I first moved here, I sized the boiler and radiators myself, using
> the calculations in a book from the library. It worked out at 11kW.
>
> Since then we have added a (heated) conservatory,
One sure way to waste an awful lot of heat energy (and money)

In article <tnms57$3v0v1$1@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/12/2022 20:44, charles wrote:
> > In article <k06kc2F7hs6U4@mid.individual.net>, alan_m
> > <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 17/12/2022 17:59, David Wade wrote:
> >
> >>> It may also result in the boiler running much longer. If you have a
> >>> tank stat it may not reach the desired temp seems very wastefull as
> >>> the pump will run even if the boiler shuts down because the return
> >>> flow is too hot.
> >
> >> and with the estimate that most of the UKs boilers are oversized it
> >> will result in more inefficient and faster short cycling.
> >
> > my boiler (from 1988) can only just keep up with the recent cold spell.
> >
> Yeah. i made a mistake when I specced mine, I didnt think about 'heat up
> from freezing cold'.

In previous years I have kept it on a a low temp overnight. I didn't last
week - error.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

As always, its a case of read the small print. Even EDF are advising to turn
the flow rate down, not to me there should be a way, sensor wise to do this
with an outside Thermometer, and a control circuit for the pump.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Roger Mills" <mills37.fslife@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k06d4iF6lv0U1@mid.individual.net...
> Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
> boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
> making the house any colder.
>
> That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
> efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
> cold snap which we've just been experiencing.
>
> Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
> reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat losses,
> and the house will never reach the desired temperature.
>
> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
> risk of legionella.
> --
> Cheers,
> Roger

I would agree with that last statement, they can also be a distinct hazard
if one is under a window and aperson is looking out of said window while
standing up. Ahem, hot genitals syndrome?
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tnkvf1$b2b$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 17/12/2022 17:38, Roger Mills wrote:
>> Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
>> boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
>> making the house any colder.
>
> Setting the house thermostat a couple of degrees lower and wearing a
> decent woolly jumper provides by far the biggest saving (short of
> switching the heating off entirely - which causes other problems).
>>
>> That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
>> efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
>> cold snap which we've just been experiencing.
>
> +1
>
> OTOH at least they have given some approximately correct advice instead of
> doing the classic Thick Lizzy "Ostrich with head in sand" dance.
>>
>> Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
>> reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat losses,
>> and the house will never reach the desired temperature.
>
> Reducing the target temperature for the house and wearing some more
> clothes when indoors is the most obvious way to save money on energy
> bills.
>
>> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
>> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
>> risk of legionella.
>
> It isn't all that likely in a domestic setting unless you set the boiler
> flow temperature very low indeed (too low to be useful in radiators).
>
> Some people have their radiators so hot ~80C that they are a distinct
> hazard to small children touching them.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown
>

On 17 Dec 2022 at 17:38:25 GMT, Roger Mills wrote:

> Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
> boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
> making the house any colder.
>
> That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
> efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
> cold snap which we've just been experiencing.
>
> Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
> reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat losses,
> and the house will never reach the desired temperature.
>
> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
> risk of legionella.

Shapps is an idiot. Saw him on TV basically advising everyone to turn their
boiler down to 60C regardless..
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 13:58:25 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patchmoney@gmx.com>
wrote:

>On 17 Dec 2022 at 17:38:25 GMT, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> Apparently the government is about to advise people to turn down their
>> boiler flow temperature - claiming that that will save energy without
>> making the house any colder.
>>
>> That may be true during mild spells, allowing the boiler to run more
>> efficiently by condensing better - but it *ain't* true for the type of
>> cold snap which we've just been experiencing.
>>
>> Unless the radiators are grossly oversized, running them cooler will
>> reduce their output to less than is required to balance the heat losses,
>> and the house will never reach the desired temperature.
>>
>> Besides which, if people have a stored hot water system rather than a
>> combi boiler, reducing the flow temperature too much will increase the
>> risk of legionella.
>
>Shapps is an idiot. Saw him on TV basically advising everyone to turn their
>boiler down to 60C regardless..

I'm fairly sure he said "most". But without defining who it is a bit
silly. And to do it as an authoritive voice is typical of ignorant
career politicians. You'd hope he'd get some expert advice before
parading himself on TV.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 18/12/2022 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Yeah. i made a mistake when I specced mine, I didnt think about 'heat up
> from freezing cold'.
>
> The boiler ran nearly 24 hrs non stop when it tripped two days ago, to
> get the house back up. Then it tripped again on restart.

Been there - but a long time ago.

Once we lived in Bracknell. It's OK, we've escaped now, but one of the
nice things was we got a development corporation house. Basically a
council house, but via the job not through need.

It had heating downstairs only. In the cold winters we had back then,
when it froze like last week for a month (1982?), the boiler was running
24/7, and we had a fan heater in our bedroom to get dressed.

Andy