Colin Bignell wrote:

> I leave my wealth to the children of my youngest sister does not use an
> apostrophe and is unambiguous.

But if your youngest sister dies, and her children survive, do you want the
money to go to them, or the children of your next youngest sister?

On 26/11/2022 20:52, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <tltsll$1jt4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Andrew
> <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> writes
>> On 26/11/2022 19:40, Tim+ wrote:
>>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>> On 25/11/2022 19:23, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 01:42:20 +1100, Colin Bignell
>>>>> <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25/11/2022 14:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25/11/2022 14:08, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 25/11/2022 12:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 25/11/2022 11:01, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And that's what I said. For wide area networking (sic!) you need
>>>>>>>>>>> standard protocols agreed by all.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even then, provided the meaning is clear, it is not really
>>>>>>>>>> necessary. Newspapers helped standardise the written language,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> if you look back at some of the early newspapers, even they
>>>>>>>>>> varied
>>>>>>>>>> in both spelling and grammar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You argument reminds me of Ernest K Ganns training  in 'fate is
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> hunter'
>>>>>>>>> He was disciplined to fly exactly on the target altitude. Why?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "One day it may save your life; if you are in the habit of
>>>>>>>>> doing it"
>>>>>>>>> And it did, Twice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It can also kill, as with the honey-pot effect of light aircraft
>>>>>>>> converging on the same radio beacon at exactly the same
>>>>>>>> altitude. In
>>>>>>>> pre-GPS days, my aircraft had a RNav, which allowed me to plot
>>>>>>>> GPS-like routes, using radio beacons as set points and avoid flying
>>>>>>>> directly over the beacons.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are flying without a flight plan and not under traffic
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> in crowded airspace, you probably dont deserve to live
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most private pilots fly that way. Getting certified to fly on
>>>>>> instruments is expensive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some things, like plane full of passengers and crew, are more
>>>>>>>>> important that sloppy lazy selfishness.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is why all air traffic is spoken in unambiguous english
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In France, it can be in French at regional airports, although they
>>>>>>>> will respond in English if first addressed in English. Also very
>>>>>>>> French is calling the tower and being told by a message,
>>>>>>>> recorded in
>>>>>>>> French, that ATC is at lunch.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course many air traffic controllers speak the local language to
>>>>>>> local pilots, Its caused a few accidents, too, when otrher aircraft
>>>>>>> havent inderstood the conversations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even the English used by ATC evolves, usually as a result of an
>>>>>>>> accident. Today, take-off only refers to an aircraft on the runway
>>>>>>>> in the process of or about to take-off. Prior to entering the
>>>>>>>> runway, the term departure is used. This is a result of the
>>>>>>>> collision of two 747s, in poor visibility at Los Rodeos Airport on
>>>>>>>> Tenerife. The pilot of the KLM aircraft reported that he was 'at
>>>>>>>> take-off' the Spanish air controller took this to mean he was at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> holding point for the runway. The American pilot of the other 747,
>>>>>>>> which was taxiing down the runway in the other direction also does
>>>>>>>> not appear to have thought otherwise. However, the Dutch aircraft
>>>>>>>> had actually begun its take-off run.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed. Its developing into a standardised form, though, not
>>>>>>> wandering off in all directions.
>>>>>>>   You merely reinforce my point,that unambiguous clear shared
>>>>>>> standards are necessary for precise communication.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, in day to day life, most people are not looking for precise
>>>>>> communication.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Consider
>>>>>>> I leave my wealth to my youngest sisters' children
>>>>>>> versus
>>>>>>> I leave my wealth to my youngest sister's children
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure how you can have two youngest sisters,
>>>>>
>>>>> Very easily if you have more than two sisters.
>>>>
>>>> Only if they are twins. Otherwise, both would be younger but only one
>>>> would be youngest.
>>>>
>>>  Even twins legally have younger/older status and will have order and
>>> time
>>> of births recorded.
>>>  Tim
>>>
>> If they are genuinely identical then even birth certificates
>> and original NHS documents won't prove which one is which.
>
> I think you're wrong. IIRC (although I've only had personal experience
> of this once!) after being born babies are almost immediately fitted
> with an appropriate ID wrist tag.

But they don't wear those wrist tags all their lives !. Swapping
places to play tricks on their teachers (and others) is par for
the course with identical twins.

On 26/11/2022 21:49, Tim+ wrote:
> Andrew <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 26/11/2022 19:40, Tim+ wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Even twins legally have younger/older status and will have order and time
>>> of births recorded.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
>> If they are genuinely identical then even birth certificates
>> and original NHS documents won't prove which one is which.
>>
>
> Do you really believe that they come out side by side? One is always first.
>
> Tim
>

Not the point. genuinely identical twins can easily interchange
'identities' at various stages of their lives (notably when
they are in school). QED actually proving which one popped out
first later in life is not easy.

On 28/11/2022 17:33, Andy Burns wrote:
> Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>> I leave my wealth to the children of my youngest sister does not use
>> an apostrophe and is unambiguous.
>
> But if your youngest sister dies, and her children survive, do you want
> the money to go to them, or the children of your next youngest sister?

For the second case, it would need to read the children of my youngest
surviving sister.

--
Colin Bignell

On 28/11/2022 18:34, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 17:33, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Colin Bignell wrote:
>>
>>> I leave my wealth to the children of my youngest sister does not use
>>> an apostrophe and is unambiguous.
>>
>> But if your youngest sister dies, and her children survive, do you
>> want the money to go to them, or the children of your next youngest
>> sister?
>
> For the second case, it would need to read the children of my youngest
> surviving sister.

Not at all. That is exactly where lawyers make huge sums of money and
the costs eat up inheritances. What you would need to put is exectly who
it is to go to and who it should go to if circumstances change.

So "to the children of my sister Alice" or "to the children of my sister
Alice, but if she should pre-decease me, to the children of my sister
Brenda" depending upon which version you want. Don't leave any room for
argument.

On 28/11/2022 19:33, SteveW wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 18:34, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 28/11/2022 17:33, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>
>>>> I leave my wealth to the children of my youngest sister does not use
>>>> an apostrophe and is unambiguous.
>>>
>>> But if your youngest sister dies, and her children survive, do you
>>> want the money to go to them, or the children of your next youngest
>>> sister?
>>
>> For the second case, it would need to read the children of my youngest
>> surviving sister.
>
> Not at all. That is exactly where lawyers make huge sums of money and
> the costs eat up inheritances. What you would need to put is exectly who
> it is to go to and who it should go to if circumstances change.
>
> So "to the children of my sister Alice" or "to the children of my sister
> Alice, but if she should pre-decease me, to the children of my sister
> Brenda" depending upon which version you want. Don't leave any room for
> argument.
>

This is about the meaning of the wording, rather than about how to write
a will. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, in a real will, the
beneficiaries would be named individually, with current addresses, and
possibly dates of birth.

--
Colin Bignell

On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 05:23:26 +1100, Andrew
<Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:

> On 26/11/2022 21:49, Tim+ wrote:
>> Andrew <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2022 19:40, Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Even twins legally have younger/older status and will have order and
>>>> time
>>>> of births recorded.
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>
>>> If they are genuinely identical then even birth certificates
>>> and original NHS documents won't prove which one is which.
>>>
>> Do you really believe that they come out side by side? One is always
>> first.
>> Tim
>>
>
> Not the point. genuinely identical twins can easily interchange
> 'identities' at various stages of their lives (notably when
> they are in school). QED actually proving which one popped out
> first later in life is not easy.

In fact it is trivial since fingerprints are unique.

And no one normally needs to prove who is the first born identical twin
anyway.

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