On 26-Dec-22 17:21, Max Demian wrote:

> They still used to have air vents directed to the screen. Or open the
> windows if the passengers are breathing too much moisture out.

Lax discipline.
Tell your passengers to stop breathing so much, or get out.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 26/12/2022 18:37, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:

>> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting
>> points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not
>> designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>
> Car made before the current regulations came in may not have built-in
> mounting points and, in those, tow bars were often fitted, by reputable
> manufacturers, the way seat belts were added to my first car: by fitting
> plates that would spread the load over the bodywork and bolting to
> those. (The plates I used were those used by the manufacturer in later
> models, which had seat belt fixings, although seat belts were still an
> optional extra)
>

That is true, but the current regs came in in August 1998 - getting on
for 25 years ago. I was assuming that we talking about newer cars than that.
--
Cheers,
Roger

On 26/12/2022 18:37, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
>> On 24/12/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 24/12/2022 15:57, Fredxx wrote:
>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:23, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:09, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 17:49, Michael Chare wrote:
>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 16:24, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>>>> being happily behind the times and never worked or wanted a car
>>>>>>>> with led lights what is the story with them?.....are any of the
>>>>>>>> lights a standard size like bulbs?.....do you have to replace
>>>>>>>> all of the lights or can you do it individualy like with
>>>>>>>> bulbs....if one goes do you have to replace the whole unit
>>>>>>>> ....is anything standard or are the just a money pit with
>>>>>>>> progress as an excuse?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Car LED lights are fine they use less electricity than filament
>>>>>>> bulbs, so the wiring to them is thinner. Depending on the car and
>>>>>>> the light you may have to change a complete fiting with more than
>>>>>>> one light if you have a failure. The wiring may not be thick
>>>>>>> enough if you have trailer filament light bulbs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A car designed without a fitment for adding a tow-bar cannot have
>>>>>> one fitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> After market tow bars for cars not designed to have one used to be
>>>>> quite a big business. Are you saying those no longer exist?
>>>>
>>>> I believe that is the case. 1998 was the date where you needed a
>>>> type approved tow-bar. Some cars don't have a train-weight
>>>> specification, and these cannot tow a trailer.
>>>
>>> I would have thought that type approval would not be a problem for a
>>> big tow bar manufacturer, such as Witter. The train-weight
>>> specification might be more of a problem, but are there many cars
>>> that don't have one or, because of their age perhaps, don't need one?
>>>
>>>>>> If a car is designed with fittings for a tow-bar, it should have
>>>>>> wiring capable of driving a trailer board with filament lights.
>>>
>>> I would have thought that was something for the two-bar fitter to
>>> check and, if necessary, to provide new wiring for. A caravan will
>>> need a lot more than just a few filament lights.
>>>
>>>
>> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting
>> points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not
>> designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>
> Car made before the current regulations came in may not have built-in
> mounting points and, in those, tow bars were often fitted, by reputable
> manufacturers, the way seat belts were added to my first car: by fitting
> plates that would spread the load over the bodywork and bolting to
> those. (The plates I used were those used by the manufacturer in later
> models, which had seat belt fixings, although seat belts were still an
> optional extra)

Yes and in those days, I took care to buy from a reputable and known
manufacturer, such as Witter.

Nowadays, I still do, but it is probably less important, as all
manufacturers have standards to keep to.

On 26/12/2022 23:03, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 26/12/2022 18:37, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>>> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting
>>> points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not
>>> designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>>
>> Car made before the current regulations came in may not have built-in
>> mounting points and, in those, tow bars were often fitted, by
>> reputable manufacturers, the way seat belts were added to my first
>> car: by fitting plates that would spread the load over the bodywork
>> and bolting to those. (The plates I used were those used by the
>> manufacturer in later models, which had seat belt fixings, although
>> seat belts were still an optional extra)
>>
>
> That is true, but the current regs came in in August 1998 - getting on
> for 25 years ago. I was assuming that we talking about newer cars than
> that.

My knowledge of after market tow bars dates from way back, when I bought
second hand. I have always had a trailer that needed towing. Once I
started buying new, I specified a tow hook, if one wasn't standard,
although on the last three cars, it folds away out of sight when not needed.

--
Colin Bignell

On 26/12/2022 20:51, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 24-Dec-22 11:30, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
>> On 12/24/2022 9:15 AM, Animal wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 06:17:22 UTC, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>
>>>> and don't get me started on DRLs ......
>>>
>>> shocking, all that life saving
>> rubbish
>
> Yep.  Some of those lives saved belong to absolute bastards.
>
all the twats with DRLs put the sensible rest of us without them at a
disadvantage as everybody now expects bright lights to save them looking
properly.....

On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 24/12/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 24/12/2022 15:57, Fredxx wrote:
>>> On 24/12/2022 15:23, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:09, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>> On 23/12/2022 17:49, Michael Chare wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 16:24, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>>> being happily behind the times and never worked or wanted a car
>>>>>>> with led lights what is the story with them?.....are any of the
>>>>>>> lights a standard size like bulbs?.....do you have to replace all
>>>>>>> of the lights or can you do it individualy like with bulbs....if
>>>>>>> one goes do you have to replace the whole unit ....is anything
>>>>>>> standard or are the just a money pit with progress as an excuse?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Car LED lights are fine they use less electricity than filament
>>>>>> bulbs, so the wiring to them is thinner. Depending on the car and
>>>>>> the light you may have to change a complete fiting with more than
>>>>>> one light if you have a failure. The wiring may not be thick
>>>>>> enough if you have trailer filament light bulbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> A car designed without a fitment for adding a tow-bar cannot have
>>>>> one fitted.
>>>>
>>>> After market tow bars for cars not designed to have one used to be
>>>> quite a big business. Are you saying those no longer exist?
>>>
>>> I believe that is the case. 1998 was the date where you needed a type
>>> approved tow-bar. Some cars don't have a train-weight specification,
>>> and these cannot tow a trailer.
>>
>> I would have thought that type approval would not be a problem for a
>> big tow bar manufacturer, such as Witter. The train-weight
>> specification might be more of a problem, but are there many cars that
>> don't have one or, because of their age perhaps, don't need one?
>>
>>>>> If a car is designed with fittings for a tow-bar, it should have
>>>>> wiring capable of driving a trailer board with filament lights.
>>
>> I would have thought that was something for the two-bar fitter to
>> check and, if necessary, to provide new wiring for. A caravan will
>> need a lot more than just a few filament lights.
>>
>>
> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting points
> rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not designed
> for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>
> That's not to say that Joe operating out of the railway arches won't
> find a way, but it won't be legal, and the Witters of this world will
> steer well clear.
I fit tow bars as a defence mechanism I don't even fit the electrics.....

On 12/26/2022 1:00 PM, SteveW wrote:
> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
>> On 24/12/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 24/12/2022 15:57, Fredxx wrote:
>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:23, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:09, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 17:49, Michael Chare wrote:
>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 16:24, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>>>> being happily behind the times and never worked or wanted a car with led lights what is the story with them?.....are any of the lights a standard size like bulbs?.....do you have to replace all of the lights or can you do it individualy like with bulbs....if one goes do you have to replace the whole unit ....is anything standard or are the just a money pit with progress as an excuse?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Car LED lights are fine they use less electricity than filament bulbs, so the wiring to them is thinner. Depending on the car and the light you may have to change a complete fiting with more than one light if you have a failure. The wiring may not be thick enough if you have trailer filament light bulbs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A car designed without a fitment for adding a tow-bar cannot have one fitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> After market tow bars for cars not designed to have one used to be quite a big business. Are you saying those no longer exist?
>>>>
>>>> I believe that is the case. 1998 was the date where you needed a type approved tow-bar. Some cars don't have a train-weight specification, and these cannot tow a trailer.
>>>
>>> I would have thought that type approval would not be a problem for a big tow bar manufacturer, such as Witter. The train-weight specification might be more of a problem, but are there many cars that don't have one or, because of their age perhaps, don't need one?
>>>
>>>>>> If a car is designed with fittings for a tow-bar, it should have wiring capable of driving a trailer board with filament lights.
>>>
>>> I would have thought that was something for the two-bar fitter to check and, if necessary, to provide new wiring for. A caravan will need a lot more than just a few filament lights.
>>>
>>>
>> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>>
>> That's not to say that Joe operating out of the railway arches won't find a way, but it won't be legal, and the Witters of this world will steer well clear.
>
> Many cars have the mounting points and approved towbars, but are still not permitted to tow. You may find that a diesel or petrol version of a car can tow, but the electric version cannot, either because the manufacturer has simply not bothered to put the electric version through the paperwork and testing required and has not issued it with a towing weight or because they have not done so, as they consider that the regenerative braking will be adversely affected.
>
> In some cases, it is permitted to fit the towbar designed for the petrol or diesel model, but only to use it for a bike or disability scooter carrier and not for towing.
>
> In at least one case, the EV version is not approved for towing in the EU or the UK, but is approved to tow 500kg in Norway and has been known to tow 2300kg elsewhere.

This is an example of a BEV towing test. The F150 has two motors, with slightly
different reduction ratio gear boxes on each.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/ford-f150-lightning-electric-truck-towing-test/

"The tightly clustered results reveal that aerodynamics have a bigger impact on
towing range than weight. Using the width and height of the trailers to calculate
a crude approximation of frontal area, the larger two trailers more than double
the area plowing through the air compared to an unladen F-150. If you're towing
something smaller and sleeker, such as a boat, an open car hauler, or a utility
trailer, you'll likely be able to push farther than we did on a single charge. "

"With 775 lb-ft of torque on tap, the electric F-150 shoves off from a stop smoothly
and confidently, but that authority wanes as speeds climb. Equipped with
single-speed transmissions at the front and rear motors, the Lightning
can't just downshift into the meat of the torque curve like a gas truck does,
so passing maneuvers at highway speeds require patience and planning with a heavy trailer."

And apparently they use the friction brakes more when towing.
Which implies regen can't "eat" the whole load. So if you're heading
back from the mountains, towards Denver, that's the smell of brakes
you're smelling, rather than hot motors :-)

The best thing you can haul with a BEV truck, is a low profile battery pack :-)

Paul

In message <toe6tg$3im6i$1@dont-email.me>, jim.gm4dhj
<kinvig.netta@ntlworld.com> writes
>On 26/12/2022 20:51, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 24-Dec-22 11:30, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
>>> On 12/24/2022 9:15 AM, Animal wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 06:17:22 UTC, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> and don't get me started on DRLs ......
>>>>
>>>> shocking, all that life saving
>>> rubbish
>> Yep.  Some of those lives saved belong to absolute bastards.
>>
>all the twats with DRLs put the sensible rest of us without them at a
>disadvantage as everybody now expects bright lights to save them
>looking properly.....

When it was announced that we were going to be made to have DRLs, I was
initially against the idea. However, I now have a car which has them, I
can see the benefit (especially as there is a certain group of drivers
who seem to be totally opposed to idea of 'see and be seen' when it
comes to vehicle lights. The only problem I foresee is if I have a DRL
failure, replacing one will probably entail starting with the removal of
the rear number plate and working forward.
--
Ian

On 27/12/2022 07:31, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
>> On 24/12/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>> On 24/12/2022 15:57, Fredxx wrote:
>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:23, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:09, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 17:49, Michael Chare wrote:
>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 16:24, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>>>> being happily behind the times and never worked or wanted a car
>>>>>>>> with led lights what is the story with them?.....are any of the
>>>>>>>> lights a standard size like bulbs?.....do you have to replace
>>>>>>>> all of the lights or can you do it individualy like with
>>>>>>>> bulbs....if one goes do you have to replace the whole unit
>>>>>>>> ....is anything standard or are the just a money pit with
>>>>>>>> progress as an excuse?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Car LED lights are fine they use less electricity than filament
>>>>>>> bulbs, so the wiring to them is thinner. Depending on the car and
>>>>>>> the light you may have to change a complete fiting with more than
>>>>>>> one light if you have a failure. The wiring may not be thick
>>>>>>> enough if you have trailer filament light bulbs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A car designed without a fitment for adding a tow-bar cannot have
>>>>>> one fitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> After market tow bars for cars not designed to have one used to be
>>>>> quite a big business. Are you saying those no longer exist?
>>>>
>>>> I believe that is the case. 1998 was the date where you needed a
>>>> type approved tow-bar. Some cars don't have a train-weight
>>>> specification, and these cannot tow a trailer.
>>>
>>> I would have thought that type approval would not be a problem for a
>>> big tow bar manufacturer, such as Witter. The train-weight
>>> specification might be more of a problem, but are there many cars
>>> that don't have one or, because of their age perhaps, don't need one?
>>>
>>>>>> If a car is designed with fittings for a tow-bar, it should have
>>>>>> wiring capable of driving a trailer board with filament lights.
>>>
>>> I would have thought that was something for the two-bar fitter to
>>> check and, if necessary, to provide new wiring for. A caravan will
>>> need a lot more than just a few filament lights.
>>>
>>>
>> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting
>> points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not
>> designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>>
>> That's not to say that Joe operating out of the railway arches won't
>> find a way, but it won't be legal, and the Witters of this world will
>> steer well clear.
> I fit tow bars as a defence mechanism I don't even fit the electrics.....

Some pillock with a tow bar reversed into the front of my Astra
while it was parked outside my house. I have my suspicion who it
was; lady living 3 doors down has a Honda CRV with a tow bar and
her sister lives next to me. I noticed that CRV being reversed in
front of my car a few days ago while they were playing musical
chairs with the car parking arrangements and the damage to my
front number plae and the air grill below it is the same height
as that sodding CRV towing ball.

On 26/12/2022 11:12, NY wrote:
> "Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ZEaBj1Jn8LqjFwVy@brattleho.plus.com...
>> My first car, a 1953 Ford Perfect, had drum brakes (of course) and rod
>> brakes - and it could stop on a sixpence. [Mind you, its top speed was
>> about 50mph, and I used to cruise at 42mph.] No radio, of course, but
>> it was fitted with an optional retrofit heater (passenger side, under
>> the front shelf) and a stick-on rear window heater. Indicators were
>> semaphore, and windscreen wipers vacuum driven. No temperature gauge,
>> but it did have an ammeter (moving iron, I think). I have happy
>> memories of many 160 and 80 metre mobile QSOs from it.
>
> I was listening to a podcast of a novel (Paraffin Winter) set in the
> long hard winter of 1963 and the protagonist describes how he bought a
> second-hand car (might have been a Prefect/Popular/Anglia) and got the
> garage to fit an after-market heater. Hard to imagine cars ever not
> having them - in winter they are more important than radios. Essential
> to keep the windows demisted: the driver may freeze but he still needs
> to be able to see out.

Even with the later model Ford Anglia (105E notchback) the heater
was an optional extra. £12 10s if I recollect.

On 27/12/2022 08:56, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <toe6tg$3im6i$1@dont-email.me>, jim.gm4dhj
> <kinvig.netta@ntlworld.com> writes
>> On 26/12/2022 20:51, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> On 24-Dec-22 11:30, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
>>>> On 12/24/2022 9:15 AM, Animal wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, 24 December 2022 at 06:17:22 UTC, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> and don't get me started on DRLs ......
>>>>>
>>>>> shocking, all that life saving
>>>> rubbish
>>>  Yep.  Some of those lives saved belong to absolute bastards.
>>>
>> all the twats with DRLs put the sensible rest of us without them at a
>> disadvantage as everybody now expects bright lights to save them
>> looking properly.....
>
> When it was announced that we were going to be made to have DRLs, I was
> initially against the idea. However, I now have a car which has them, I
> can see the benefit (especially as there is a certain group of drivers
> who seem to be totally opposed to idea of 'see and be seen' when it
> comes to vehicle lights. The only problem I foresee is if I have a DRL
> failure, replacing one will probably entail starting with the removal of
> the rear number plate and working forward.
In the 90's I had a crap volvo 440 with early DRLs......people would
flash me to tell me I had left my lights on so I found that if I sat the
light switch between settings they would stay off...then people started
flashing me to tell me my DRLs were not working because they knew Volvos
were the only car to have them at the time...you can't win....tee hee

On 27/12/2022 12:10, Andrew wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 07:31, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
>>> On 24/12/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:57, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:23, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:09, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 17:49, Michael Chare wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 16:24, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>>>>> being happily behind the times and never worked or wanted a car
>>>>>>>>> with led lights what is the story with them?.....are any of the
>>>>>>>>> lights a standard size like bulbs?.....do you have to replace
>>>>>>>>> all of the lights or can you do it individualy like with
>>>>>>>>> bulbs....if one goes do you have to replace the whole unit
>>>>>>>>> ....is anything standard or are the just a money pit with
>>>>>>>>> progress as an excuse?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Car LED lights are fine they use less electricity than filament
>>>>>>>> bulbs, so the wiring to them is thinner. Depending on the car
>>>>>>>> and the light you may have to change a complete fiting with more
>>>>>>>> than one light if you have a failure. The wiring may not be
>>>>>>>> thick enough if you have trailer filament light bulbs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A car designed without a fitment for adding a tow-bar cannot have
>>>>>>> one fitted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After market tow bars for cars not designed to have one used to be
>>>>>> quite a big business. Are you saying those no longer exist?
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that is the case. 1998 was the date where you needed a
>>>>> type approved tow-bar. Some cars don't have a train-weight
>>>>> specification, and these cannot tow a trailer.
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought that type approval would not be a problem for a
>>>> big tow bar manufacturer, such as Witter. The train-weight
>>>> specification might be more of a problem, but are there many cars
>>>> that don't have one or, because of their age perhaps, don't need one?
>>>>
>>>>>>> If a car is designed with fittings for a tow-bar, it should have
>>>>>>> wiring capable of driving a trailer board with filament lights.
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought that was something for the two-bar fitter to
>>>> check and, if necessary, to provide new wiring for. A caravan will
>>>> need a lot more than just a few filament lights.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting
>>> points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not
>>> designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>>>
>>> That's not to say that Joe operating out of the railway arches won't
>>> find a way, but it won't be legal, and the Witters of this world will
>>> steer well clear.
>> I fit tow bars as a defence mechanism I don't even fit the electrics.....
>
> Some pillock with a tow bar reversed into the front of my Astra
> while it was parked outside my house. I have my suspicion who it
> was; lady living 3 doors down has a Honda CRV with a tow bar and
> her sister lives next to me. I noticed that CRV being reversed in
> front of my car a few days ago while they were playing musical
> chairs with the car parking arrangements and the damage to my
> front number plae and the air grill below it is the same height
> as that sodding CRV towing ball.
saved me a few times from wummin drivers

On 27/12/2022 08:49, Paul wrote:
> On 12/26/2022 1:00 PM, SteveW wrote:
>> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
>>> On 24/12/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:57, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:23, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:09, Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 17:49, Michael Chare wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 16:24, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>>>>> being happily behind the times and never worked or wanted a car
>>>>>>>>> with led lights what is the story with them?.....are any of the
>>>>>>>>> lights a standard size like bulbs?.....do you have to replace
>>>>>>>>> all of the lights or can you do it individualy like with
>>>>>>>>> bulbs....if one goes do you have to replace the whole unit
>>>>>>>>> ....is anything standard or are the just a money pit with
>>>>>>>>> progress as an excuse?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Car LED lights are fine they use less electricity than filament
>>>>>>>> bulbs, so the wiring to them is thinner. Depending on the car
>>>>>>>> and the light you may have to change a complete fiting with more
>>>>>>>> than one light if you have a failure. The wiring may not be
>>>>>>>> thick enough if you have trailer filament light bulbs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A car designed without a fitment for adding a tow-bar cannot have
>>>>>>> one fitted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After market tow bars for cars not designed to have one used to be
>>>>>> quite a big business. Are you saying those no longer exist?
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that is the case. 1998 was the date where you needed a
>>>>> type approved tow-bar. Some cars don't have a train-weight
>>>>> specification, and these cannot tow a trailer.
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought that type approval would not be a problem for a
>>>> big tow bar manufacturer, such as Witter. The train-weight
>>>> specification might be more of a problem, but are there many cars
>>>> that don't have one or, because of their age perhaps, don't need one?
>>>>
>>>>>>> If a car is designed with fittings for a tow-bar, it should have
>>>>>>> wiring capable of driving a trailer board with filament lights.
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought that was something for the two-bar fitter to
>>>> check and, if necessary, to provide new wiring for. A caravan will
>>>> need a lot more than just a few filament lights.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sadly, no.  Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting
>>> points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not
>>> designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
>>>
>>> That's not to say that Joe operating out of the railway arches won't
>>> find a way, but it won't be legal, and the Witters of this world will
>>> steer well clear.
>>
>> Many cars have the mounting points and approved towbars, but are still
>> not permitted to tow. You may find that a diesel or petrol version of
>> a car can tow, but the electric version cannot, either because the
>> manufacturer has simply not bothered to put the electric version
>> through the paperwork and testing required and has not issued it with
>> a towing weight or because they have not done so, as they consider
>> that the regenerative braking will be adversely affected.
>>
>> In some cases, it is permitted to fit the towbar designed for the
>> petrol or diesel model, but only to use it for a bike or disability
>> scooter carrier and not for towing.
>>
>> In at least one case, the EV version is not approved for towing in the
>> EU or the UK, but is approved to tow 500kg in Norway and has been
>> known to tow 2300kg elsewhere.
>
> This is an example of a BEV towing test. The F150 has two motors, with
> slightly
> different reduction ratio gear boxes on each.
>
> https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/ford-f150-lightning-electric-truck-towing-test/
>
>    "The tightly clustered results reveal that aerodynamics have a
> bigger impact on
>     towing range than weight. Using the width and height of the
> trailers to calculate
>     a crude approximation of frontal area, the larger two trailers more
> than double
>     the area plowing through the air compared to an unladen F-150. If
> you're towing
>     something smaller and sleeker, such as a boat, an open car hauler,
> or a utility
>     trailer, you'll likely be able to push farther than we did on a
> single charge. "
>
>    "With 775 lb-ft of torque on tap, the electric F-150 shoves off from
> a stop smoothly
>     and confidently, but that authority wanes as speeds climb. Equipped
> with
>     single-speed transmissions at the front and rear motors, the Lightning
>     can't just downshift into the meat of the torque curve like a gas
> truck does,
>     so passing maneuvers at highway speeds require patience and
> planning with a heavy trailer."
>
> And apparently they use the friction brakes more when towing.
> Which implies regen can't "eat" the whole load. So if you're heading
> back from the mountains, towards Denver, that's the smell of brakes
> you're smelling, rather than hot motors :-)
>
> The best thing you can haul with a BEV truck, is a low profile battery
> pack :-)

Mostly, I jut want to tow a 5' x 3' trailer to the tip, to take rubbish
for disposal or to pick something up from one of the DIY stores (both
journeys less than 7 miles. I am not bothered about decreased range or
using the friction brakes more. Just taking waste that I've collected
into the trailer, without dirtying the interior of the car.

"Andrew" <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:toenj9$1cfv$2@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 26/12/2022 11:12, NY wrote:
>> "Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:ZEaBj1Jn8LqjFwVy@brattleho.plus.com...
>>> My first car, a 1953 Ford Perfect, had drum brakes (of course) and rod
>>> brakes - and it could stop on a sixpence. [Mind you, its top speed was
>>> about 50mph, and I used to cruise at 42mph.] No radio, of course, but it
>>> was fitted with an optional retrofit heater (passenger side, under the
>>> front shelf) and a stick-on rear window heater. Indicators were
>>> semaphore, and windscreen wipers vacuum driven. No temperature gauge,
>>> but it did have an ammeter (moving iron, I think). I have happy memories
>>> of many 160 and 80 metre mobile QSOs from it.
>>
>> I was listening to a podcast of a novel (Paraffin Winter) set in the long
>> hard winter of 1963 and the protagonist describes how he bought a
>> second-hand car (might have been a Prefect/Popular/Anglia) and got the
>> garage to fit an after-market heater. Hard to imagine cars ever not
>> having them - in winter they are more important than radios. Essential to
>> keep the windows demisted: the driver may freeze but he still needs to be
>> able to see out.
>
> Even with the later model Ford Anglia (105E notchback) the heater
> was an optional extra. £12 10s if I recollect.

Gosh, optional heaters were as late as that? How about vacuum windscreen
wipers - when was the last car with those?

When was the last car made that was not factory-fitted with seat belts? Some
time before the wearing became mandatory in the early 1990s. The only car
that my parents owned which did not have seat belts was my mum's 1960-model
Morris Minor (*). Dad's C-reg Austin Cambridge had them in the front, as did
his E-reg Ford Corsair and all his Hillman Hunters and all newer cars.

When was the last two-door car made which could not have conventional seat
belts mounted on the B pillar, and which instead had those absurd 10-foot
seat belts which mounted near the rear wheel arch and so were a trip hazard
for anyone getting in/out of the back seats.

(*) When mum bought the car second-hand in 1966, she was told that seat
belts could not be fitted because neither the B pillars on the two-door
model nor the body near the rear wheel arch were strong enough for the
mountings. Not sure how true that was - I'm sure people with Moggies of that
age nowadays have managed to fit inertia reel belts.

In article <toh6qt$3ul0j$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Andrew" <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:toenj9$1cfv$2@gioia.aioe.org...
> > On 26/12/2022 11:12, NY wrote:
> >> "Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:ZEaBj1Jn8LqjFwVy@brattleho.plus.com...
> >>> My first car, a 1953 Ford Perfect, had drum brakes (of course) and
> >>> rod brakes - and it could stop on a sixpence. [Mind you, its top
> >>> speed was about 50mph, and I used to cruise at 42mph.] No radio, of
> >>> course, but it was fitted with an optional retrofit heater
> >>> (passenger side, under the front shelf) and a stick-on rear window
> >>> heater. Indicators were semaphore, and windscreen wipers vacuum
> >>> driven. No temperature gauge, but it did have an ammeter (moving
> >>> iron, I think). I have happy memories of many 160 and 80 metre
> >>> mobile QSOs from it.
> >>
> >> I was listening to a podcast of a novel (Paraffin Winter) set in the
> >> long hard winter of 1963 and the protagonist describes how he bought
> >> a second-hand car (might have been a Prefect/Popular/Anglia) and got
> >> the garage to fit an after-market heater. Hard to imagine cars ever
> >> not having them - in winter they are more important than radios.
> >> Essential to keep the windows demisted: the driver may freeze but he
> >> still needs to be able to see out.
> >
> > Even with the later model Ford Anglia (105E notchback) the heater was
> > an optional extra. £12 10s if I recollect.

> Gosh, optional heaters were as late as that? How about vacuum windscreen
> wipers - when was the last car with those?

I think it was the Ford Popular. Late 50s / early 60s.

> When was the last car made that was not factory-fitted with seat belts?

My '65 Anglia Estate did not have them.

> Some time before the wearing became mandatory in the early 1990s. The
> only car that my parents owned which did not have seat belts was my
> mum's 1960-model Morris Minor (*). Dad's C-reg Austin Cambridge had them
> in the front, as did his E-reg Ford Corsair and all his Hillman Hunters
> and all newer cars.

> When was the last two-door car made which could not have conventional
> seat belts mounted on the B pillar, and which instead had those absurd
> 10-foot seat belts which mounted near the rear wheel arch and so were a
> trip hazard for anyone getting in/out of the back seats.

> (*) When mum bought the car second-hand in 1966, she was told that seat
> belts could not be fitted because neither the B pillars on the two-door
> model nor the body near the rear wheel arch were strong enough for the
> mountings. Not sure how true that was - I'm sure people with Moggies of
> that age nowadays have managed to fit inertia reel belts.

The reels were fitted to the floor - back seat passenger foot space.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 24/12/2022 12:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I'd dispute the wiring size, as I'm pretty sure many cars do use thick
> enough wires for caravans and trailers which might have non LED lights, but
> certainly elsewhere they could be thinner and one would suppose any fuses
> smaller as well.
> People tell me that unless the light is out due to a crash or some wiring
> defect in the vehicle, they hardly ever stop working. So you have swings and
> roundabouts I suppose.
>
> Brian
>

Sorry, late to the party and don't have time to read all the messages
so this may have already been covered but Big Clive was sent a £1200
Tesla headlamp module that had failed, for him to take apart. (yes
technically it wasn't actually the LED that has failed but it was its
control circuitry that wouldn't be needed with non LED system)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_toknJIOhEg

--
Chris B (News)

On 12/29/2022 6:14 AM, Chris B wrote:
> On 24/12/2022 12:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> I'd dispute the wiring size, as I'm pretty sure many cars do use thick
>> enough wires for caravans and trailers which might have non LED lights, but
>> certainly elsewhere they could be thinner and one would suppose any fuses
>> smaller as well.
>>   People tell me that unless the light is out due to a crash or some wiring
>> defect in the vehicle, they hardly ever stop working. So you have swings and
>> roundabouts I suppose.
>>
>>   Brian
>>
>
>
> Sorry,  late to the party and don't have time to read all the messages so this may have already been covered but Big Clive was sent a £1200 Tesla headlamp module that had failed, for him to take apart.  (yes technically it wasn't actually the LED that has failed but it was its control circuitry that wouldn't be needed with non LED system)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_toknJIOhEg

"Jesus wept"

Think of the stereo system I could have for £1200.

A piddly little bit of plastic with some cheesium LEDs in it.

And they design a gasketed housing for the constant current source...
and it leaks ? Where is Jesus when you need Him.

Why, £1200 would buy you one wheel and one rim for the Tesla.
Collect the whole set.

If they put the constant current source inside the same
housing as the motor controllers (the housing that connects
to the active cooling system), they could just send a few
conductors to carry constant current to the headlamp assembly.
There's no need to bolt a poorly cooled module to the
back of that plastic crapshoot of a headlamp. But I suppose
if you did that, the replacement headlamp assembly would be £1180.

£1200 for a plastic headlight is "military hammer pricing".

Paul

On Wednesday, 28 December 2022 at 00:36:36 UTC, SteveW wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 08:49, Paul wrote:
> > On 12/26/2022 1:00 PM, SteveW wrote:
> >> On 26/12/2022 17:47, Roger Mills wrote:
> >>> On 24/12/2022 17:42, Colin Bignell wrote:
> >>>> On 24/12/2022 15:57, Fredxx wrote:
> >>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:23, Colin Bignell wrote:
> >>>>>> On 24/12/2022 15:09, Fredxx wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 17:49, Michael Chare wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 23/12/2022 16:24, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> being happily behind the times and never worked or wanted a car
> >>>>>>>>> with led lights what is the story with them?.....are any of the
> >>>>>>>>> lights a standard size like bulbs?.....do you have to replace
> >>>>>>>>> all of the lights or can you do it individualy like with
> >>>>>>>>> bulbs....if one goes do you have to replace the whole unit
> >>>>>>>>> ....is anything standard or are the just a money pit with
> >>>>>>>>> progress as an excuse?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Car LED lights are fine they use less electricity than filament
> >>>>>>>> bulbs, so the wiring to them is thinner. Depending on the car
> >>>>>>>> and the light you may have to change a complete fiting with more
> >>>>>>>> than one light if you have a failure. The wiring may not be
> >>>>>>>> thick enough if you have trailer filament light bulbs.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A car designed without a fitment for adding a tow-bar cannot have
> >>>>>>> one fitted.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> After market tow bars for cars not designed to have one used to be
> >>>>>> quite a big business. Are you saying those no longer exist?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I believe that is the case. 1998 was the date where you needed a
> >>>>> type approved tow-bar. Some cars don't have a train-weight
> >>>>> specification, and these cannot tow a trailer.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would have thought that type approval would not be a problem for a
> >>>> big tow bar manufacturer, such as Witter. The train-weight
> >>>> specification might be more of a problem, but are there many cars
> >>>> that don't have one or, because of their age perhaps, don't need one?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> If a car is designed with fittings for a tow-bar, it should have
> >>>>>>> wiring capable of driving a trailer board with filament lights.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would have thought that was something for the two-bar fitter to
> >>>> check and, if necessary, to provide new wiring for. A caravan will
> >>>> need a lot more than just a few filament lights.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Sadly, no. Tow bars have to be attached to the built-in mounting
> >>> points rather than to ad-hoc holes drilled in the bodywork. Cars not
> >>> designed for towing have no built-in mounting points. End of!
> >>>
> >>> That's not to say that Joe operating out of the railway arches won't
> >>> find a way, but it won't be legal, and the Witters of this world will
> >>> steer well clear.
> >>
> >> Many cars have the mounting points and approved towbars, but are still
> >> not permitted to tow. You may find that a diesel or petrol version of
> >> a car can tow, but the electric version cannot, either because the
> >> manufacturer has simply not bothered to put the electric version
> >> through the paperwork and testing required and has not issued it with
> >> a towing weight or because they have not done so, as they consider
> >> that the regenerative braking will be adversely affected.
> >>
> >> In some cases, it is permitted to fit the towbar designed for the
> >> petrol or diesel model, but only to use it for a bike or disability
> >> scooter carrier and not for towing.
> >>
> >> In at least one case, the EV version is not approved for towing in the
> >> EU or the UK, but is approved to tow 500kg in Norway and has been
> >> known to tow 2300kg elsewhere.
> >
> > This is an example of a BEV towing test. The F150 has two motors, with
> > slightly
> > different reduction ratio gear boxes on each.
> >
> > https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/ford-f150-lightning-electric-truck-towing-test/
> >
> > "The tightly clustered results reveal that aerodynamics have a
> > bigger impact on
> > towing range than weight. Using the width and height of the
> > trailers to calculate
> > a crude approximation of frontal area, the larger two trailers more
> > than double
> > the area plowing through the air compared to an unladen F-150. If
> > you're towing
> > something smaller and sleeker, such as a boat, an open car hauler,
> > or a utility
> > trailer, you'll likely be able to push farther than we did on a
> > single charge. "
> >
> > "With 775 lb-ft of torque on tap, the electric F-150 shoves off from
> > a stop smoothly
> > and confidently, but that authority wanes as speeds climb. Equipped
> > with
> > single-speed transmissions at the front and rear motors, the Lightning
> > can't just downshift into the meat of the torque curve like a gas
> > truck does,
> > so passing maneuvers at highway speeds require patience and
> > planning with a heavy trailer."
> >
> > And apparently they use the friction brakes more when towing.
> > Which implies regen can't "eat" the whole load. So if you're heading
> > back from the mountains, towards Denver, that's the smell of brakes
> > you're smelling, rather than hot motors :-)
> >
> > The best thing you can haul with a BEV truck, is a low profile battery
> > pack :-)
> Mostly, I jut want to tow a 5' x 3' trailer to the tip, to take rubbish
> for disposal or to pick something up from one of the DIY stores (both
> journeys less than 7 miles. I am not bothered about decreased range or
> using the friction brakes more. Just taking waste that I've collected
> into the trailer, without dirtying the interior of the car.
On the subject of trailers. I recently ordered what I thought was two 24 watt LED lights to fit to my Ifor Williams old style 505 horse trailer. Turned out to be one light with two lamps. When I reverse it now there's no difficulty in seeing what's behind as the 48Watts of cool white LED turns night into day.