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aus+uk / uk.comp.sys.mac / Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

SubjectAuthor
* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)D.M. Procida
+* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)David Brooks
|`- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)whisky-dave
+* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris
|+* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)RJH
||`* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Graeme Wall
|| `- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris
|`* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)D.M. Procida
| `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Alan B
|  `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)D.M. Procida
|   `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris
|    +- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)D.M. Procida
|    `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris Ridd
|     +* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)D.M. Procida
|     |`* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris
|     | `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris Ridd
|     |  `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris
|     |   `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris Ridd
|     |    `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris
|     |     `- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris
|     `- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Theo
`* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Jaimie Vandenbergh
 `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Theo
  `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Jaimie Vandenbergh
   `* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Theo
    +* Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)D.M. Procida
    |`- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Theo
    +- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Chris Ridd
    `- Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)Jaimie Vandenbergh

Pages:12
Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

<jd0etvFugbtU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 28 Apr 2022 21:23:11 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:23 UTC

I have a Lenovo 24-inch display QHD (2560 x 1440) which I think is pretty
good.

The resolution's excellent - it doesn't have retina-level smoothness, but it
makes an FHD display (1920 x 1080) look very coarse.

I also like the way that the USB-C connector will handle video input, power
the MacBook and provide a USB hub that connects my microphone and telephone,
all at the same time, with a single connector, and it has an HDMI connector
too.

It's this one
<https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/monitors/home/Q24h-10D20238QL023-8inch-Monitor-HDMI/p/66A8GAC6UK>.

I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
get the same again, any other suggestions?

Daniele

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

<0%DaK.150908$Mih.68578@fx05.ams1>

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Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
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From: DGB...@nomail.afraid.org (David Brooks)
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 by: David Brooks - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:50 UTC

On 28/04/2022 22:23, D.M. Procida wrote:
> I have a Lenovo 24-inch display QHD (2560 x 1440) which I think is pretty
> good.
>
> The resolution's excellent - it doesn't have retina-level smoothness, but it
> makes an FHD display (1920 x 1080) look very coarse.
>
> I also like the way that the USB-C connector will handle video input, power
> the MacBook and provide a USB hub that connects my microphone and telephone,
> all at the same time, with a single connector, and it has an HDMI connector
> too.
>
> It's this one
> <https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/monitors/home/Q24h-10D20238QL023-8inch-Monitor-HDMI/p/66A8GAC6UK>.
>
> I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
> get the same again, any other suggestions?
>
> Daniele

I played around on one of these in John Lewis this afternoon:-

https://www.johnlewis.com/apple-studio-display-with-tilt-height-adjustable-stand-nano-texture-glass-27-inch-5k-retina-display-silver/p6145617

A finer picture you'll never see! :-D

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: ithink...@gmail.com (Chris)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:06:41 +0100
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 by: Chris - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:06 UTC

On 28/04/2022 22:23, D.M. Procida wrote:
> I have a Lenovo 24-inch display QHD (2560 x 1440) which I think is pretty
> good.
>
> The resolution's excellent - it doesn't have retina-level smoothness, but it
> makes an FHD display (1920 x 1080) look very coarse.
>
> I also like the way that the USB-C connector will handle video input, power
> the MacBook and provide a USB hub that connects my microphone and telephone,
> all at the same time, with a single connector, and it has an HDMI connector
> too.
>
> It's this one
> <https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/monitors/home/Q24h-10D20238QL023-8inch-Monitor-HDMI/p/66A8GAC6UK>.
>
> I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
> get the same again, any other suggestions?
>
> Daniele

Work supplied me with this one, instead of a separate monitor and
powered hub:
https://www.hp.com/gb-en/shop/product.aspx?id=1B9X2AA&opt=ABU&sel=DEF

Am pretty happy with it. Bright and clear display, thin bezel, and fully
adjustable. Also works well with my external TM drive - despite some
glitches at some point which resolved themselves.

The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
battery only.

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: patchmo...@gmx.com (RJH)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:37:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: RJH - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:37 UTC

On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 28/04/2022 22:23, D.M. Procida wrote:
>> I have a Lenovo 24-inch display QHD (2560 x 1440) which I think is pretty
>> good.
>>
>> The resolution's excellent - it doesn't have retina-level smoothness, but it
>> makes an FHD display (1920 x 1080) look very coarse.
>>
>> I also like the way that the USB-C connector will handle video input, power
>> the MacBook and provide a USB hub that connects my microphone and telephone,
>> all at the same time, with a single connector, and it has an HDMI connector
>> too.
>>
>> It's this one
>> <https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/monitors/home/Q24h-10D20238QL023-8inch-Monitor-HDMI/p/66A8GAC6UK>.
>>
>> I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
>> get the same again, any other suggestions?
>>
>> Daniele
>
> Work supplied me with this one, instead of a separate monitor and
> powered hub:
> https://www.hp.com/gb-en/shop/product.aspx?id=1B9X2AA&opt=ABU&sel=DEF
>
> Am pretty happy with it. Bright and clear display, thin bezel, and fully
> adjustable. Also works well with my external TM drive - despite some
> glitches at some point which resolved themselves.
>
> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
> battery only.

Looks good - although the branding on the back's a bit unfortunate . . .

--
Cheers, Rob

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

<t4gc1l$5h6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rai...@greywall.demon.co.uk (Graeme Wall)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:44:21 +0100
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 by: Graeme Wall - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:44 UTC

On 29/04/2022 10:37, RJH wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28/04/2022 22:23, D.M. Procida wrote:
>>> I have a Lenovo 24-inch display QHD (2560 x 1440) which I think is pretty
>>> good.
>>>
>>> The resolution's excellent - it doesn't have retina-level smoothness, but it
>>> makes an FHD display (1920 x 1080) look very coarse.
>>>
>>> I also like the way that the USB-C connector will handle video input, power
>>> the MacBook and provide a USB hub that connects my microphone and telephone,
>>> all at the same time, with a single connector, and it has an HDMI connector
>>> too.
>>>
>>> It's this one
>>> <https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/monitors/home/Q24h-10D20238QL023-8inch-Monitor-HDMI/p/66A8GAC6UK>.
>>>
>>> I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
>>> get the same again, any other suggestions?
>>>
>>> Daniele
>>
>> Work supplied me with this one, instead of a separate monitor and
>> powered hub:
>> https://www.hp.com/gb-en/shop/product.aspx?id=1B9X2AA&opt=ABU&sel=DEF
>>
>> Am pretty happy with it. Bright and clear display, thin bezel, and fully
>> adjustable. Also works well with my external TM drive - despite some
>> glitches at some point which resolved themselves.
>>
>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>> battery only.
>
> Looks good - although the branding on the back's a bit unfortunate . . .
>

oops!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

<jd1rrdF81maU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 29 Apr 2022 10:09:49 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:09 UTC

On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
> battery only.

Why do you think that is?

Daniele

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: alanrich...@nospamgmail.com.here (Alan B)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:27:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Alan B - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:27 UTC

D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>> battery only.
>
> Why do you think that is?

Presumably the monitor PSU is supplying a charging current to the port on
the MBP.

--
Cheers, Alan

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

<073794e0-602f-4ba3-a30a-c633c144b391n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
From: whisky.d...@gmail.com (whisky-dave)
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 by: whisky-dave - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:38 UTC

On Thursday, 28 April 2022 at 22:50:55 UTC+1, David Brooks wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 22:23, D.M. Procida wrote:
> > I have a Lenovo 24-inch display QHD (2560 x 1440) which I think is pretty
> > good.
> >
> > The resolution's excellent - it doesn't have retina-level smoothness, but it
> > makes an FHD display (1920 x 1080) look very coarse.
> >
> > I also like the way that the USB-C connector will handle video input, power
> > the MacBook and provide a USB hub that connects my microphone and telephone,
> > all at the same time, with a single connector, and it has an HDMI connector
> > too.
> >
> > It's this one
> > <https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/monitors/home/Q24h-10D20238QL023-8inch-Monitor-HDMI/p/66A8GAC6UK>.
> >
> > I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
> > get the same again, any other suggestions?
> >
> > Daniele
> I played around on one of these in John Lewis this afternoon:-
>
> https://www.johnlewis.com/apple-studio-display-with-tilt-height-adjustable-stand-nano-texture-glass-27-inch-5k-retina-display-silver/p6145617
>
> A finer picture you'll never see! :-D

Unless you opt for the Pro display XDR of course for an extrra ~4K (that's 4k in ££££)

But I woud like to compare a nano-texture screen to see if its worth the extra £250 or so.

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From: jai...@usually.sessile.org (Jaimie Vandenbergh)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 29 Apr 2022 12:57:10 GMT
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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:57 UTC

On 28 Apr 2022 at 22:23:11 BST, "D.M. Procida"
<daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:

> I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
> get the same again, any other suggestions?

I'm using a Huawei MateView 28", some >4k res and 3:2 ratio which is a
pretty nice device. Does the USB-C one-cord thing.

I am having trouble with its builtin USB3 hub though, which my M1 thinks
is USB2. Got a ticket open with Huawei support, since the vid/pid does
show it as a USB3 10gbps hub.

I got it at at £350, but that was with a £50 off coupon and £100
cashback, which sweetened the rrp significantly and I'm not sure they're
doing that now.

My other option was the Studio display though, so even at full price you
could get nearly three.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Tomorrow (noun) - A mystical land where 99 per cent
of all human productivity, motivation and achievement
is stored.
-- http://thedoghousediaries.com/3474

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 29 Apr 2022 14:25:03 +0100 (BST)
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 by: Theo - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 13:25 UTC

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
> On 28 Apr 2022 at 22:23:11 BST, "D.M. Procida"
> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> > I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
> > get the same again, any other suggestions?
>
> I'm using a Huawei MateView 28", some >4k res and 3:2 ratio which is a
> pretty nice device. Does the USB-C one-cord thing.
>
> I am having trouble with its builtin USB3 hub though, which my M1 thinks
> is USB2. Got a ticket open with Huawei support, since the vid/pid does
> show it as a USB3 10gbps hub.

Is that perhaps related to the limited Thunderbolt/USB implementation in the
original M1? It may be giving all the high speed lanes in the cable to
video, leaving only the slow USB2 pair.

It could also be your cable only has one high speed pair wired in each
direction. Ordinarily that would get you USB at 5Gbps (at Gen1 speeds) or
10Gbps (Gen2 speeds), leaving a second pair for the video, but if your cable
only has one pair then the video might take it, leaving no pairs for USB.

I would try a '20Gbps' or '40Gbps' cable, since they will have both pairs
wired. (If you don't have such a thing, any other cables you have lying
around would be worth trying)

Theo

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 by: D.M. Procida - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:15 UTC

On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:27:58 BST, "Alan B"
<alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:

> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>>> battery only.
>>
>> Why do you think that is?
>
> Presumably the monitor PSU is supplying a charging current to the port on
> the MBP.

But mine does exactly the same, and it maintains 80% happily. It took a while
before it decided that was what it was going to do, though.

Daniele

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Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
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 by: Chris - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:38 UTC

D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:27:58 BST, "Alan B"
> <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:
>
>> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>>>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>>>> battery only.
>>>
>>> Why do you think that is?
>>
>> Presumably the monitor PSU is supplying a charging current to the port on
>> the MBP.
>
> But mine does exactly the same, and it maintains 80% happily. It took a while
> before it decided that was what it was going to do, though.

It only sits at 80% for a while. It will eventually charge to 100% and at
that point won't discharge.

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From: ithink...@gmail.com (Chris)
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Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:38:15 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Chris - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:38 UTC

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 10:37, RJH wrote:
>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/04/2022 22:23, D.M. Procida wrote:
>>>> I have a Lenovo 24-inch display QHD (2560 x 1440) which I think is pretty
>>>> good.
>>>>
>>>> The resolution's excellent - it doesn't have retina-level smoothness, but it
>>>> makes an FHD display (1920 x 1080) look very coarse.
>>>>
>>>> I also like the way that the USB-C connector will handle video input, power
>>>> the MacBook and provide a USB hub that connects my microphone and telephone,
>>>> all at the same time, with a single connector, and it has an HDMI connector
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>> It's this one
>>>> <https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/monitors/home/Q24h-10D20238QL023-8inch-Monitor-HDMI/p/66A8GAC6UK>.
>>>>
>>>> I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
>>>> get the same again, any other suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> Daniele
>>>
>>> Work supplied me with this one, instead of a separate monitor and
>>> powered hub:
>>> https://www.hp.com/gb-en/shop/product.aspx?id=1B9X2AA&opt=ABU&sel=DEF
>>>
>>> Am pretty happy with it. Bright and clear display, thin bezel, and fully
>>> adjustable. Also works well with my external TM drive - despite some
>>> glitches at some point which resolved themselves.
>>>
>>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>>> battery only.
>>
>> Looks good - although the branding on the back's a bit unfortunate . . .
>>
>
> oops!

File it next to the Lexus ISIS.

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
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 by: D.M. Procida - Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:25 UTC

On 29 Apr 2022 at 15:38:15 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:27:58 BST, "Alan B"
>> <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:
>>
>>> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>>>>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>>>>> battery only.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>
>>> Presumably the monitor PSU is supplying a charging current to the port on
>>> the MBP.
>>
>> But mine does exactly the same, and it maintains 80% happily. It took a while
>> before it decided that was what it was going to do, though.
>
> It only sits at 80% for a while. It will eventually charge to 100% and at
> that point won't discharge.

Interesting. I have my MacBook Pro (M1) set to "Optimised battery charging",
and even when plugged into the monitor's PSU, it maintains 80%.

However, there was a period of some days when it didn't - but I am pretty sure
that was nothing to do with what was charging it, but to do with what the MBP
decided it ought to be doing.

I wonder what will happen if you leave it plugged in longer.

Daniele

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
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 by: Chris Ridd - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:06 UTC

On 29/04/2022 15:38, Chris wrote:
> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:27:58 BST, "Alan B"
>> <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:
>>
>>> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>>>>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>>>>> battery only.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>
>>> Presumably the monitor PSU is supplying a charging current to the port on
>>> the MBP.
>>
>> But mine does exactly the same, and it maintains 80% happily. It took a while
>> before it decided that was what it was going to do, though.
>
> It only sits at 80% for a while. It will eventually charge to 100% and at
> that point won't discharge.

I wonder how the power negotiation works.

If the supplier (HP screen) always provides current even when the
consumer (Mac) says not to, does the Mac still charge? Or does the Mac
refuse to draw that current? I'd have assumed the latter, to be able to
work with dumb chargers.

--
Chris

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 by: D.M. Procida - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 09:47 UTC

On 30 Apr 2022 at 10:06:55 BST, "Chris Ridd" <chrisridd@mac.com> wrote:

> On 29/04/2022 15:38, Chris wrote:
>> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:27:58 BST, "Alan B"
>>> <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:
>>>
>>>> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>>>>>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>>>>>> battery only.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>
>>>> Presumably the monitor PSU is supplying a charging current to the port on
>>>> the MBP.
>>>
>>> But mine does exactly the same, and it maintains 80% happily. It took a while
>>> before it decided that was what it was going to do, though.
>>
>> It only sits at 80% for a while. It will eventually charge to 100% and at
>> that point won't discharge.
>
> I wonder how the power negotiation works.
>
> If the supplier (HP screen) always provides current even when the
> consumer (Mac) says not to, does the Mac still charge? Or does the Mac
> refuse to draw that current? I'd have assumed the latter, to be able to
> work with dumb chargers.

I assume the latter too. However the other Chris is having an experience I
can't explain.

Daniele

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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 15:00 UTC

On 29 Apr 2022 at 14:25:03 BST, "Theo"
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>> On 28 Apr 2022 at 22:23:11 BST, "D.M. Procida"
>> <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I need a monitor for my other office; before I do the sensible thing and just
>>> get the same again, any other suggestions?
>>
>> I'm using a Huawei MateView 28", some >4k res and 3:2 ratio which is a
>> pretty nice device. Does the USB-C one-cord thing.
>>
>> I am having trouble with its builtin USB3 hub though, which my M1 thinks
>> is USB2. Got a ticket open with Huawei support, since the vid/pid does
>> show it as a USB3 10gbps hub.
>
> Is that perhaps related to the limited Thunderbolt/USB implementation in the
> original M1? It may be giving all the high speed lanes in the cable to
> video, leaving only the slow USB2 pair.

Mm. Seems likely. Shame mrs' work Dell doesn't do USB-C video, I don't
have another appropriate device to test it with.

> It could also be your cable only has one high speed pair wired in each
> direction. Ordinarily that would get you USB at 5Gbps (at Gen1 speeds) or
> 10Gbps (Gen2 speeds), leaving a second pair for the video, but if your cable
> only has one pair then the video might take it, leaving no pairs for USB.
>
> I would try a '20Gbps' or '40Gbps' cable, since they will have both pairs
> wired. (If you don't have such a thing, any other cables you have lying
> around would be worth trying)

Yup, 40Gbps USB4 does the same.

Thanks for the heads up, I wasn't aware of the M1 lanes issue. Can't
find anything useful about it, do you have any ref?

Cheers - Jaimie

--
'It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? `I protect the
lives and property of my citizens; you keep the public
safe from an unreasonable and trouble-generating
minority; he maintains a totalitarian regime of
thought control.' -- Bernard, Yes Minister

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 30 Apr 2022 16:30:34 +0100 (BST)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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 by: Theo - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 15:30 UTC

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
> Yup, 40Gbps USB4 does the same.
>
> Thanks for the heads up, I wasn't aware of the M1 lanes issue. Can't
> find anything useful about it, do you have any ref?

I'm not saying there *is* a lanes issue, I'm just guessing.

Basically, USB-C provides four differential pairs, normally two in each
direction. Each pair can do 5, 10 or 20Gbps, resulting in up to 40Gbps in
each direction. There is additionally a 480Mbps USB 2 channel on a separate
pair.

There are two ways this is handled. The USB 3.x way is the pairs are
essentially circuit switched. You plug it a docking station and it says
'I'd like some Displayport, some USB superspeed please, and by the way I can
offer charging'. There are four pairs, so you might get two lanes of
Displayport (both going out) and one lane each way of USB 3.x.

The Thunderbolt way is that Thunderbolt is a packet switching network. So
you have the four lanes running the Thunderbolt protocol, and on top of that
you open a tunnel a bit like a VPN for Displayport and a tunnel for USB.
They share the available bandwidth. For example, if you change to a lower
resolution video mode there's more bandwidth for USB. To do this you need
an endpoint that supports Thunderbolt to essentially terminate those VPN
tunnels.

USB 4 brought Thunderbolt into the USB standard. That means a USB 4 device
can implement the packet switching way instead of the circuit switching way.
Thunderbolt 4 is a minor bump of Thunderbolt to align with USB 4, basically
making a bunch of optional things mandatory.

There is talk that the M1 only supported Thunderbolt 3 not Thunderbolt 4 (as
in it failed to tick the TBT4 must-have boxes) because it only supported one
external display - I'm not clear if that's a port limitation or because of a
lack of onboard Displayport controller for a third panel (internal, external
1, external 2). I'm not casting aspersions about M1, just unclear on what
it does and doesn't support (USB-C stuff is always super murky...)

Unless you have a Thunderbolt (or USB 4 running Thunderbolt protocol)
device, it's likely it does the circuit switching method which has the
bandwidth limitation. Which is not an M1 fault per se, it's just that
you're using it in a different, more limited, mode.

Theo

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: daniele-...@invalid.com (D.M. Procida)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 30 Apr 2022 16:36:30 GMT
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 by: D.M. Procida - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 16:36 UTC

On 30 Apr 2022 at 16:30:34 BST, "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
wrote:

> There are two ways this is handled. The USB 3.x way is the pairs are
> essentially circuit switched. You plug it a docking station and it says
> 'I'd like some Displayport, some USB superspeed please, and by the way I can
> offer charging'. There are four pairs, so you might get two lanes of
> Displayport (both going out) and one lane each way of USB 3.x.

That's really interesting. But clearly, there's two-way traffic to monitors,
because displays are able to tell the computer about themselves, in some
detail. So do they temporarily use their connections in the other direction,
or do they do that over another circuit?

Daniele

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 30 Apr 2022 20:37:32 +0100 (BST)
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 by: Theo - Sat, 30 Apr 2022 19:37 UTC

D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
> That's really interesting. But clearly, there's two-way traffic to monitors,
> because displays are able to tell the computer about themselves, in some
> detail. So do they temporarily use their connections in the other direction,
> or do they do that over another circuit?

There are additional pins in the USB-C connector when in Displayport
Alt-mode:

1. SBU (sideband) are used as a half duplex 1Mbps channel for HDCP, EDID
exchange (monitors describing their capabilities)

2. CC (control channel) used for power delivery negotiation

CC is 'standard' USB-C, and this use of SBU is specific to Displayport.

https://www.quantumdata.com/assets/essentials_displayport_usb-c_dp_alt_mode_protocols_webinar.pdf
has some diagrams of various configurations.

Theo

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: chrisr...@mac.com (Chris Ridd)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 11:15:25 +0100
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 by: Chris Ridd - Sun, 1 May 2022 10:15 UTC

On 30/04/2022 16:30, Theo wrote:
> There is talk that the M1 only supported Thunderbolt 3 not Thunderbolt 4 (as
> in it failed to tick the TBT4 must-have boxes) because it only supported one
> external display - I'm not clear if that's a port limitation or because of a
> lack of onboard Displayport controller for a third panel (internal, external
> 1, external 2). I'm not casting aspersions about M1, just unclear on what
> it does and doesn't support (USB-C stuff is always super murky...)

I think only the original M1 Macs had the one external display
limitation. At least the new 14" and 16" Pro models can support 2 (or 3
for Max) external displays.

--
Chris

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: ithink...@gmail.com (Chris)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 11:03:19 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Chris - Sun, 1 May 2022 11:03 UTC

D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 30 Apr 2022 at 10:06:55 BST, "Chris Ridd" <chrisridd@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> On 29/04/2022 15:38, Chris wrote:
>>> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:27:58 BST, "Alan B"
>>>> <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 09:06:41 BST, "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only slight downside is that my MBP is more-or-less constantly at
>>>>>>> 100% battery charge so now and again I disconnect it to run on the
>>>>>>> battery only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you think that is?
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably the monitor PSU is supplying a charging current to the port on
>>>>> the MBP.
>>>>
>>>> But mine does exactly the same, and it maintains 80% happily. It took a while
>>>> before it decided that was what it was going to do, though.
>>>
>>> It only sits at 80% for a while. It will eventually charge to 100% and at
>>> that point won't discharge.
>>
>> I wonder how the power negotiation works.
>>
>> If the supplier (HP screen) always provides current even when the
>> consumer (Mac) says not to, does the Mac still charge? Or does the Mac
>> refuse to draw that current? I'd have assumed the latter, to be able to
>> work with dumb chargers.
>
> I assume the latter too. However the other Chris is having an experience I
> can't explain.

All I can report is what I'm experiencing. I too have an M1 MBP (13" 2020)
and have the optimised charging option ticked.

However, it doesn't often get used away from my desk and even when it does,
because of the efficiency of the CPU, it rarely gets below 80%.

I have seen it sit at ~80% "on hold" in the past, but not noticed it in a
while. I wonder if that's because I don't really have a routine so it can't
work out when the best time to fully charge is?

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
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 by: Chris Ridd - Sun, 1 May 2022 14:02 UTC

On 01/05/2022 12:03, Chris wrote:
> D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 30 Apr 2022 at 10:06:55 BST, "Chris Ridd" <chrisridd@mac.com> wrote:
>>> If the supplier (HP screen) always provides current even when the
>>> consumer (Mac) says not to, does the Mac still charge? Or does the Mac
>>> refuse to draw that current? I'd have assumed the latter, to be able to
>>> work with dumb chargers.
>>
>> I assume the latter too. However the other Chris is having an experience I
>> can't explain.
>
> All I can report is what I'm experiencing. I too have an M1 MBP (13" 2020)
> and have the optimised charging option ticked.
>
> However, it doesn't often get used away from my desk and even when it does,
> because of the efficiency of the CPU, it rarely gets below 80%.
>
> I have seen it sit at ~80% "on hold" in the past, but not noticed it in a
> while. I wonder if that's because I don't really have a routine so it can't
> work out when the best time to fully charge is?

That sounds plausible.

--
Chris

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 01 May 2022 15:33:52 +0100 (BST)
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 by: Theo - Sun, 1 May 2022 14:33 UTC

Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com> wrote:
> I wonder how the power negotiation works.
>
> If the supplier (HP screen) always provides current even when the
> consumer (Mac) says not to, does the Mac still charge? Or does the Mac
> refuse to draw that current? I'd have assumed the latter, to be able to
> work with dumb chargers.

You can't force something to charge. Even if it's 'receiving' power, it can
decide to disconnect the battery, preventing it from charging, or disconnect
the load, preventing the system from running. If it has decided 80% charge
is where it wants to stop, it can do that.

In essence* there are two DC-DC converters - one for battery and one for
system power. You can run a DC-DC in either direction. If the battery one is
outputting and the system power one is inputting, you run the laptop from
the battery. If both are inputting you run the laptop and charge the
battery. If the battery one is outputting, you can also route that to
the USB-C. If the battery one shuts off, it neither drains nor charges.

* It's a bit more complicated than that since there are usually multiple
voltages involved, with a tree of DC-DC converters, and USB-C also supports
multiple voltages. For efficiency you may also want some bypass routing to
avoid going through too many DC-DCs. But the general picture is to think of
multiple power sources/sinks with a network to move energy from one place to
another, and there's no reason why you can't feed it both ways.

Theo

Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)

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From: jai...@usually.sessile.org (Jaimie Vandenbergh)
Newsgroups: uk.comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: Monitors, again (USB-C and other considerations)
Date: 1 May 2022 20:48:47 GMT
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 by: Jaimie Vandenbergh - Sun, 1 May 2022 20:48 UTC

On 30 Apr 2022 at 16:30:34 BST, "Theo"
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Unless you have a Thunderbolt (or USB 4 running Thunderbolt protocol)
> device, it's likely it does the circuit switching method which has the
> bandwidth limitation. Which is not an M1 fault per se, it's just that
> you're using it in a different, more limited, mode.

Yeah, it made sense immediately as a possibility when you mentioned it.
I wonder if it's bumping over a bandwidth tier due to being a ~4.5k
screen...

The current Mac Pro has related issues when used with an XDR - using the
base video card you only get USB2 at the monitor's hub; with the next
one up you get USB3 5gbps there. It's due to the better card supporting
DSC (display stream compression) and freeing up enough cable bandwidth.

I'll see if I can devise some way of testing it, and also raise it with
Apple (being a beta tester has some minor benefits!) and give Huawei
tech support a ping too.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Hey T-Rex! This ice cream cake is delicious!"
"Thanks! You don't think it tastes like... *philosophical compromise*?"
"Only a little!
-- http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1093

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