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aus+uk / aus.cars / Re: Olden days.

SubjectAuthor
* Olden days.Peter Jason
+* Olden days.Noddy
|+- Olden days.alvey
|+- Olden days.Clocky
|+* Olden days.Xeno
||`- Olden days.Clocky
|`- Olden days.Peter Jason
+* Olden days.Yosemite Sam
|`- Olden days.Yosemite Sam
+* Olden days.Daryl
|+* Olden days.Peter Jason
||+- Olden days.Xeno
||+* Olden days.Noddy
|||+- Olden days.Xeno
|||`* Olden days.Peter Jason
||| `* Olden days.Noddy
|||  +- Olden days.alvey
|||  `- Olden days.Xeno
||+* Olden days.Daryl
|||`- Olden days.Xeno
||`- Olden days.Clocky
|+* Olden days.Xeno
||+* Olden days.Clocky
|||`- Olden days.Xeno
||`* Olden days.Peter Jason
|| `* Olden days.Daryl
||  `- Olden days.Peter Jason
|`* Olden days.Noddy
| +- Olden days.Xeno
| +* Olden days.Daryl
| |`* Olden days.Noddy
| | +- Olden days.Peter Jason
| | +- Olden days.Clocky
| | `- Olden days.jonz@ nothere.com
| `* Olden days.Peter Jason
|  `* Olden days.Noddy
|   `* Olden days.alvey
|    `- Olden days.Peter Jason
`* Olden days.Mountain Magpie
 +* Olden days.Peter Jason
 |`* Olden days.Noddy
 | +* Olden days.Peter Jason
 | |+- Olden days.Clocky
 | |`* Olden days.Noddy
 | | +- Olden days.Xeno
 | | `- Olden days.Clocky
 | +- Olden days.Xeno
 | `* Olden days.Crampus
 |  +- Olden days.Xeno
 |  +- Olden days.Noddy
 |  `* Olden days.Daryl
 |   `* Olden days.Noddy
 |    `- Olden days.Xeno
 `* Olden days.Rudy C
  `- Olden days.Clocky

Pages:123
Re: Olden days.

<j1j1t3FiitsU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: aus.cars
Subject: Re: Olden days.
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 18:22:09 +1100
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In-Reply-To: <sp0usf$kpd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Xeno - Sat, 11 Dec 2021 07:22 UTC

On 11/12/21 12:28 pm, Crampus wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps your "uncle" was just pulling your chain. You seem to be
>> easily amused and all.....
>>
>
> Early 80s, I knew a guy with a Valiant Regal sleeper car that went like
> a rocket. He claimed that his father worked in the Chrysler factory and
> fitted a blueprinted motor to his dealer order number....

Every engine that comes out of an OEM factory is *blueprinted*. That
means it conforms to the OEM specifications and tolerances and will
perform exactly like every other engine built to the same specs and
tolerances, nothing more. If you want an engine to perform better then
you need to use a different set of blueprints, a set with different
specs and tolerances. Production lines in the 80s were not geared up to
do that.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: Olden days.

<sp1t5c$g8q$3@dont-email.me>

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From: me...@home.com (Noddy)
Newsgroups: aus.cars
Subject: Re: Olden days.
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 21:05:31 +1100
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 by: Noddy - Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:05 UTC

On 11/12/2021 12:28 pm, Crampus wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps your "uncle" was just pulling your chain. You seem to be
>> easily amused and all.....
>>
>
> Early 80s, I knew a guy with a Valiant Regal sleeper car that went like
> a rocket. He claimed that his father worked in the Chrysler factory and
> fitted a blueprinted motor to his dealer order number....

Riiiiight. And where did this happen?

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

Re: Olden days.

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From: dwalf...@westpine.com.au (Daryl)
Newsgroups: aus.cars
Subject: Re: Olden days.
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 21:52:09 +1100
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 by: Daryl - Sun, 12 Dec 2021 10:52 UTC

On 11/12/21 12:28 pm, Crampus wrote:
> Noddy wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps your "uncle" was just pulling your chain. You seem to be
>> easily amused and all.....
>>
>
> Early 80s, I knew a guy with a Valiant Regal sleeper car that went like
> a rocket. He claimed that his father worked in the Chrysler factory and
> fitted a blueprinted motor to his dealer order number....

Having worked for a car company I'd say that that doesn't sound at all
probable.
For a start car factories don't make blueprinted engines so where did
the engine come from?
The works race team would have produced blueprinted engines, not
impossible but highly unlikely that one of those found their way into a
production car.
Valiants of that era had engines that were more powerful than the
competition so in its day it may have performed above average but a
blueprinted engine would only produce maybe 10% more than stock so
hardly a "sleeper" or a "rocket".
By today's standard it would be pretty lame and it would struggle to
keep up with a stock Corolla.

--
Daryl

Re: Olden days.

<sp4vep$n2c$1@dont-email.me>

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From: me...@home.com (Noddy)
Newsgroups: aus.cars
Subject: Re: Olden days.
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 01:03:02 +1100
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 by: Noddy - Sun, 12 Dec 2021 14:03 UTC

On 12/12/2021 9:52 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 11/12/21 12:28 pm, Crampus wrote:
>> Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>> Perhaps your "uncle" was just pulling your chain. You seem to be
>>> easily amused and all.....
>>>
>>
>> Early 80s, I knew a guy with a Valiant Regal sleeper car that went
>> like a rocket. He claimed that his father worked in the Chrysler
>> factory and fitted a blueprinted motor to his dealer order number....
>
> Having worked for a car company I'd say that that doesn't sound at all
> probable.

It isn't. It's just another of that stupid twat "Max's" trolls.

> For a start car factories don't make blueprinted engines so where did
> the engine come from?

Indeed.

> The works race team would have produced blueprinted engines, not
> impossible but highly unlikely that one of those found their way into a
> production car.

I'd say "impossible" is a safe bet :)

The post mentions "early 80's, but that doesn't state what year model
Valiant is being discussed. Chrysler Australia gave up making high
performance engines in 1972, and from then on they made nothing but run
of the mill family hack engines. Unlike Ford and Holden they had no
performance models in their range, and they made basic Vanilla Valiants
until they ceased production in early 1981.

For the record, "Blueprinting" is one of the most miss-used and wanked
over terms in the automotive field. It simply means nothing other than
building an engine to an exact set of tolerances, and as far as OEM
equipment goes you could spend a week ratting through parts bins to
gather the most precisely machined parts you could find and put the
engine together in the most meticulous fashion possible and be lucky if
you gained 3 horsepower over an average engine assembled on the
production line by a bunch of workers throwing the things together with
a hammer and rattle gun.

The reason for that is that there simply isn't enough variation in mass
produced parts for the "blueprinting" process to make any significant
difference, and that has been discovered by many factory "works" teams
when trying to come up with a power advantage. The BMC Works team spent
*hundreds* of hours searching through the stocks of engine parts in
trying to put together a Cooper S engine that made as much power as
possible in the 1960's for the Monte Carlo rally, and after putting in
many man hours of sorting, measuring, assembling and testing they came
up with an engine that made no more power than anyone else :)

Similarly, Ford Australia went down that part in the early 1970's with
the GTHO Falcons. Back in those days all the GTHO engines came in from
the US as crate engines, and they were shipped to Australia in "ready to
run" state. All Ford here in Oz had to do was take them out of their
boxes, put them in the car, fill them with oil and they were good to go.
However, if you planned to race a GTHO then you could order what was
called a "QC" engine.

It cost something like 58 bucks back in the day, and basically they gave
the engine a "prep" job for the race track. The engine was removed from
the crate and sent to a special sub assembly line where it was
dismantled and a few special tweaks were done such as running a hone
through the block to open up the piston to bore clearance a little,
changing the solid lifters to a different type, changing the advance
weights in the distributor to bring the timing in a little earlier and
give it a few more degrees of total, lighten the secondary spring in the
carb, etc etc.

It didn't necessarily make a bunch more power, but it made the engine
more suitable for track work. Depending on who ordered the engine there
was also some "special love" that was handed out, such as fitting
pistons backwards on the rods to take advantage of the fact that
Clevelands have a 60 thousandths offset in the pin, and running the
pistons backwards changes the rod angle at/near TDC and gives a slight
torque advantage.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

Re: Olden days.

<j1njehFelo9U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: aus.cars
Subject: Re: Olden days.
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 11:46:06 +1100
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In-Reply-To: <sp4vep$n2c$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Xeno - Mon, 13 Dec 2021 00:46 UTC

On 13/12/21 1:03 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 12/12/2021 9:52 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 11/12/21 12:28 pm, Crampus wrote:
>>> Noddy wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps your "uncle" was just pulling your chain. You seem to be
>>>> easily amused and all.....
>>>>
>>>
>>> Early 80s, I knew a guy with a Valiant Regal sleeper car that went
>>> like a rocket. He claimed that his father worked in the Chrysler
>>> factory and fitted a blueprinted motor to his dealer order number....
>>
>> Having worked for a car company I'd say that that doesn't sound at all
>> probable.
>
> It isn't. It's just another of that stupid twat "Max's" trolls.

At least Max doesn't pretend to be a qualified tradesman and claim
credentials he doesn't possess. Know anyone like that Darren? Oh, that's
right, *you* do that - all _ the _ time.
>
>> For a start car factories don't make blueprinted engines so where did
>> the engine come from?
>
> Indeed.

Oh dear, more people who don't really understand blueprinting. For the
record, factories and OEMs do blueprinting all the time. Everything is
*documented*, everything is checked for *conformity* to specifications,
everything is *recorded*. My wife used to work on an OEM production line
making parts for Holden, Ford and Toyota and, in every case, she had to
carry out the above *blueprinting*. The above also included frequent
*tolerance checking* of subcomponents - no different to the procedures
on the car factory floor.
>
>> The works race team would have produced blueprinted engines, not
>> impossible but highly unlikely that one of those found their way into
>> a production car.
>
> I'd say "impossible" is a safe bet :)
>
> The post mentions "early 80's, but that doesn't state what year model
> Valiant is being discussed. Chrysler Australia gave up making high
> performance engines in 1972, and from then on they made nothing but run
> of the mill family hack engines. Unlike Ford and Holden they had no
> performance models in their range, and they made basic Vanilla Valiants
> until they ceased production in early 1981.
>
> For the record, "Blueprinting" is one of the most miss-used and wanked
> over terms in the automotive field. It simply means nothing other than

And you are still doing it.

> building an engine to an exact set of tolerances, and as far as OEM
> equipment goes you could spend a week ratting through parts bins to

Blueprinting says nothing about *exact set of tolerances*. The engine
designer sets the tolerances required and they go on the blueprints. If
you, as an engine builder, want to use more precise tolerances, that is
entirely up to you but you had best know what you are doing. Remember
Les's engine? You didn't even *check* the valve to piston clearance so
you didn't do one of the fundamentals of blueprinting - the recording of
measurements and checking against specifications and tolerances - with
disastrous results for Les.

> gather the most precisely machined parts you could find and put the
> engine together in the most meticulous fashion possible and be lucky if
> you gained 3 horsepower over an average engine assembled on the
> production line by a bunch of workers throwing the things together with
> a hammer and rattle gun.

You are mistaking *selective assembly* for *blueprinting*. Do you know
what a *blueprint* actually is Darren? It's the engineering drawings
containing all the details, including measurements and *tolerances* by
which components are made and by which sub-assemblies are assembled.
Blueprinting is the process by which the engineer's blueprints are
followed in the build process right up to and including the recording
process.
>
> The reason for that is that there simply isn't enough variation in mass
> produced parts for the "blueprinting" process to make any significant
> difference, and that has been discovered by many factory "works" teams
> when trying to come up with a power advantage. The BMC Works team spent

Blueprinting in and of itself does not guarantee *any* performance
improvement.

> *hundreds* of hours searching through the stocks of engine parts in
> trying to put together a Cooper S engine that made as much power as
> possible in the 1960's for the Monte Carlo rally, and after putting in
> many man hours of sorting, measuring, assembling and testing they came
> up with an engine that made no more power than anyone else :)
>
> Similarly, Ford Australia went down that part in the early 1970's with
> the GTHO Falcons. Back in those days all the GTHO engines came in from
> the US as crate engines, and they were shipped to Australia in "ready to
> run" state. All Ford here in Oz had to do was take them out of their
> boxes, put them in the car, fill them with oil and they were good to go.
> However, if you planned to race a GTHO then you could order what was
> called a "QC" engine.
>
> It cost something like 58 bucks back in the day, and basically they gave
> the engine a "prep" job for the race track. The engine was removed from
> the crate and sent to a special sub assembly line where it was
> dismantled and a few special tweaks were done such as running a hone
> through the block to open up the piston to bore clearance a little,
> changing the solid lifters to a different type, changing the advance
> weights in the distributor to bring the timing in a little earlier and
> give it a few more degrees of total, lighten the secondary spring in the
> carb, etc etc.

Sounds like a load of bullshit to me. Are you seriously trying to say
they would *completely disassemble* a complete crate engine just so they
could *hone the bores a little*? The bores are the veritable heart of
the engine! Lots of disassembly to get that far - not to mention the
risk of abrasive particle contamination! And only charge $58 for the
privilege? I call bullshit on that. You have no idea how factory
assembly lines work. If you want that done, you do it *on the assembly
line* and not afterwards. Just think about why that would be the case;
watch out for the wood smoke when you do that. Might set off your smoke
alarms. Feel free to supply cites for your claims. Lots of urban legends
out there Darren and, like your claims of trade qualifications, those
urban legends don't have a lot of truth to them.
>
> It didn't necessarily make a bunch more power, but it made the engine
> more suitable for track work. Depending on who ordered the engine there
> was also some "special love" that was handed out, such as fitting
> pistons backwards on the rods to take advantage of the fact that
> Clevelands have a 60 thousandths offset in the pin, and running the
> pistons backwards changes the rod angle at/near TDC and gives a slight
> torque advantage.

Cannot see the *factory* doing that with the pistons. Got a cite?

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

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