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aus+uk / uk.comp.os.linux / Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

SubjectAuthor
* Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest isJava Jive
+- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restiKook
+- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPaul
+- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restJoerg Lorenz
+- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Charlie+
+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPancho
|`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
| `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning,Anton Shepelev
|  `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
+- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restAndy Burns
+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!VanguardLH
|`- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restJava Jive
+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restJava Jive
|`- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ant
 `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPaul
  `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ant
   +- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPaul
   `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restRavi Kapoor
    +* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    |+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restRavi Kapoor
    ||+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restJava Jive
    |||+- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Char Jackson
    |||+- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning,Dan Purgert
    |||`- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    ||`- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    |+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPaul
    ||`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    || `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restDaniel65
    ||  +* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    ||  |`- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restDaniel65
    ||  `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning,Dan Purgert
    |+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    ||+* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    |||`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    ||| +* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    ||| |`- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    ||| +- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restDaniel65
    ||| `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPancho
    |||  +- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E. R.
    |||  +* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Richard Kettlewell
    |||  |`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPancho
    |||  | +* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Richard Kettlewell
    |||  | |`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPancho
    |||  | | `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Richard Kettlewell
    |||  | `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    |||  |  `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPancho
    |||  |   +- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    |||  |   +- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restDaniel65
    |||  |   `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    |||  |    `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    |||  |     `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E. R.
    |||  |      `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restDaniel65
    |||  |       `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    |||  |        `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E. R.
    |||  |         `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restjjb
    |||  |          `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning,Eric Pozharski
    |||  +* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    |||  |`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E. R.
    |||  | `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    |||  |  `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    |||  |   `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    |||  |    `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restCarlos E.R.
    |||  `* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPaul
    |||   `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restPancho
    ||`- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, restDaniel65
    |`* Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Richard Kettlewell
    | `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake
    `- Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!Ken Blake

Pages:123
Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

<tqv4bh$1d3ub$1@dont-email.me>

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From: jav...@evij.com.invalid (Java Jive)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is
slooow!
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 00:02:54 +0000
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 by: Java Jive - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 00:02 UTC

Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
hardware relevant to both OSs!

In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive ...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1

.... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
beginning with cheaper very slow chips.

Like everyone else, I've heard of USB sticks having fractions of the
memory that they are specified to have, with the memory wrapping back to
the beginning for address ranges beyond the physical limit actually
installed, but the above claim is a new con on me. Has anyone else
encountered this?

FTR, here's what he says in full (auto-translated from Spanish into
English) ...

"Cliente Amazon
1.0 out of 5 stars Satisfaction and disappointment mixed
Reviewed in Spain on 10 December 2019
Verified Purchase

As on previous occasions I had already happened with other Chinese
manufacturers that the external pendrives or SSD disks not only did not
fulfill what was promised but were also a complete deception, since they
mixed internally two types of memory (fast at first and very slow
afterwards), I decided to do a complete test for each of the 10
pendrives. I will try to explain the process I performed as best as
possible for less experienced users.

I proceeded to format each pendrive by unchecking the “Quick Format”
option, controlling the initial and final time to determine the actual
write speed (which is what formatting basically does).

The joys and disappointments in the process did not wait too long: some
took about 8 to format (writing speeds of 15~17 MB. /sec., reasonably
“high” for usb 2.0) and the rest between 17 and 21 minutes, which means
that at most they reached typical usbs 1.0 speeds, with “variable”
formatting times (nor did I want to do the speed calculations so as not
to get bitter).

Of course, with these pendrive it is true that “random access”...

What really annoyed me was, when I observed the speed of the process of
formatting the “slow” pendrives, that I could see that at first the
advance, in general, seemed “normal” for the first/second gigabytes and
that then there was, visually, almost a stoppage in the speed of that
advance until its completion. This, in my opinion, clearly indicates
that the manufacturer (again, another manufacturer) has mixed chips with
“fast” access along with very slow chips, placing access to the fastest
“at the beginning” so that the usual test tools give “good results”.

That is why I, personally, [no longer] use the typical test tools that
usually only verify a “minimum” part (just the “initial”) of the total
capacity of the external disks/pendrives. I prefer to take a little
longer and perform my writing/formatting tests more comprehensively due
to the bad experiences I have had with different memory manufacturers.

However, in my tests none of the pendrives gave write errors: a simple
method to know is to use chkdsk (in the command console) when the
formatting is finished and check that the text “bad sectors” does not
appear.

Of the 10 pendrives, 7 had an acceptable speed (one took 10 minutes, but
I “accept it with resignation” as passable) and 3 were horribly slow.

As the overall price is reasonable, I don't dare complain about it, but
I value it with only one star because of the “unexpected surprises” I
have encountered.

I'm sorry about the whole thing, but I think this is the only way to
show the problem and try to help other less experienced users perform
their own checks more guaranteably."

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

<tqv8ul$3h8ek$1@paganini.bofh.team>

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From: iKo...@gmail.com (iKook)
Newsgroups: alt.windows7.general,alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
is slooow!
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:30:12 +0000
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 by: iKook - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:30 UTC

On 27/01/2023 00:02, Java Jive wrote:
>
>
> As on previous occasions I had already happened with other Chinese
> manufacturers that the external pendrives or SSD disks not only did
> not fulfill what was promised but were also a complete deception,
> since they mixed internally two types of memory (fast at first and
> very slow afterwards), I decided to do a complete test for each of the
> 10 pendrives. I will try to explain the process I performed as best as
> possible for less experienced users.

Can you explain to us why would Chinese manufacturers do what you
suggest? How much do they save or to put it in positive terms, how much
do they make by doing that when the amount of work involved in doing
what you suggest they are doing. The item costs 14.38 (I believe it is
UK �) so for a few cents/pennies, are they so stupid to ruin their
business and reputation? These days everything is made in China so are
we going to spend time testing everything from that country? It's going
to be even more expensive for us when there are no alternative
manufacturers. European and American governments have destroyed their
factories by outsourcing everything to China and India.

Amazon Basic have similar items: <Amazon Basics - 128 GB, USB 3.1 Flash
Drive, Read Speed up to 130 MB/s : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B6148YKN/>>

You get 128GB for �14.06 and 256GB for �21.74

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: nos...@needed.invalid (Paul)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
is slooow!
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 00:07:26 -0500
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 by: Paul - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 05:07 UTC

On 1/26/2023 7:02 PM, Java Jive wrote:
> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB hardware relevant to both OSs!
>
> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive  ...
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>
> ... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so that
> it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the beginning
> with cheaper very slow chips.

The reviews I just glanced at, are for products other than the
item in question. This is "the Amazon way". Amazon allows bozo traders
to pour every review they ever got, for tea towels and scone warmers,
to be poured into the reviews of a USB stick.

The "lowest tier" of USB3 sticks, reads at 100MB/sec and writes at 10MB/sec.
The write rate gets worse, as it ages. I have a 128GB stick, with this
characteristic. When an advert does not mention the speed, this is
what you're getting.

The write speed never normally matches the read speed. The advert
presenting 320 read 200 write, is not impossible.

What you will find, is a bit of poetic license. The write rate
will probably be around 100 or so. Best case.

*******

If capacity fraud has been committed, then yes, it's true
there is weird write rate behavior. The banana-crisps who test
these products they buy, are not clever enough to do a write-readverify
and determine they have been defrauded. "Oh, YES, I did get 2TB of
storage for £10." Yet, if you ask them to compare the hard drive copy,
to what is on the stick now, they suddenly become silent.

*******

On SSD and NVMe, the TLC flash uses a portion of the flash set up as
SLC. This is called the SLC cache. Writes happen in two stages.
Fast write into the SLC cache. Slow later transfer into the main TLC body
of the device. Once the SLC cache is full, device write rates drop to the
TLC rate. This behavior can be seen on TLC and QLC drives.

I'm not aware of USB sticks doing this. The controller is not typically
sophisticated enough to be doing this. The USB stick may not have proper
wear leveling, and may suffer premature failure after a year or two.
Whereas an MLC stick will "last forever", but of course, are hardly
ever made any more.

A few USB devices, use an SSD plus a USB to SATA adapter chip. But
the form factor of the device is not usually that of a pen drive.
The device should have better characteristics, but take up more
desk space and the form factor is a general nuisance.

*******

USB sticks have one or two flash chips. In previous generations,
the controller could be two channel, and the device ran faster
because it was accessing two flash. The flash now, is I/O is fast enough,
the two devices could share a single channel. This makes the
controller chip slightly cheaper to build.

A few USB sticks (the square-ish Patriot Extreme), could have
four flash chips. But you can't plug two of those in next to
one another, so it's one of those per stack.

While you could go to all the trouble, of using two different
flash SKUs on a single stick, the quality of the flash used
in general is so poor, who really cares ? If a TLC wears out in
a year or two, and receives light usage (is not used as an OS
boot drive or something), then does it really matter if the
floor sweepings had different things written on them ? Presumably
the configuration utility they use at the factory, could handle
this behavior, but it would likely be a nuisance when setting
up the devices.

Even reputable brands, have poor flash in them.

My OCZ Rally2, laughs at my other sticks, and their shenanigans.
Sure, the stick had small capacity, it went slow, but... it
has not degraded, it does not slow with age. It actually
fucking well works. We will never see another stick like it.

Summary: If the review you saw was for a 2TB capacity device,
the speed variation could be evidence of capacity fraud,
but only a simple write-readverify can confirm your data
is not being stored on the device.

Check through the reviews, and see if there are any for
a 128GB stick or not. So at least the review item is not
"a tea towel or a candle holder".

Verified Purchase
Ausgewiesen sind bis 350 MB/s Lesen und 200 MB/s Schreiben.
Gemessen wurde an einem Thunderbolt 3 Anschluß mit Rampow USB C Adapter, Test sequentiell:
Check Flash: Lesen 230 MB/s - Schreiben: 81 MB/s <=== so it's writing at 80... wot a surprise
HD Tune Pro: Lesen 300 MB/s - Schreiben: 83 MB/s
Win Explorer: Lesen 308 MB/s - Schreiben: 77 MB/s
Nur 3 Sterne, da die Schreibgeschwindigkeit doch stark vermindert ist.
[Only 3 stars, since the writing speed is greatly reduced]

As for the availability of branded sticks we recognize,
the availability of those is pretty weird. They do not
seem to be manufactured right now, at normal rates. Even though
there is an excess of flash chips around. I have no idea what
fab makes the controllers. Probably not TSMC. There are other
fabs and they make 22nm or 12nm chips. There are even fabs in
India.

https://www.amazon.ca/SanDisk-SDCZ880-128G-G46-Extreme-128GB-Solid/dp/B01MU8TZRV

"Mostly fantastic! A little misleading in a way, though. (Failed a year and half later btw)"

And that's the thing. You can actually get decent read/write rates, but life ? ...

Paul

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: hugyb...@gmx.ch (Joerg Lorenz)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
is slooow!
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:40:01 +0100
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 by: Joerg Lorenz - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 05:40 UTC

Am 27.01.23 um 01:02 schrieb Java Jive:
> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
> hardware relevant to both OSs!
>
> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
> over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive ...
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>
> ... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
> that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
> beginning with cheaper very slow chips.

This thread is completely OT in this group and has absolutely nothing to
do with Linux or Windows even not with Mac which you forgot. And this
lengthy considerations do not reach the people you want to reach.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:02:53 +0000
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 by: Charlie+ - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:02 UTC

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 00:02:54 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote as underneath :

>Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
>hardware relevant to both OSs!
>
>In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
>over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive ...
>
>https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>
>... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
>that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
>beginning with cheaper very slow chips.
>
>Like everyone else, I've heard of USB sticks having fractions of the
>memory that they are specified to have, with the memory wrapping back to
>the beginning for address ranges beyond the physical limit actually
>installed, but the above claim is a new con on me. Has anyone else
>encountered this?
>
>FTR, here's what he says in full (auto-translated from Spanish into
>English) ...
>
>"Cliente Amazon
>1.0 out of 5 stars Satisfaction and disappointment mixed
>Reviewed in Spain on 10 December 2019
>Verified Purchase
>
>As on previous occasions I had already happened with other Chinese
>manufacturers that the external pendrives or SSD disks not only did not
>fulfill what was promised but were also a complete deception, since they
>mixed internally two types of memory (fast at first and very slow
>afterwards), I decided to do a complete test for each of the 10
>pendrives. I will try to explain the process I performed as best as
>possible for less experienced users.
>
>I proceeded to format each pendrive by unchecking the “Quick Format”
>option, controlling the initial and final time to determine the actual
>write speed (which is what formatting basically does).
>
>The joys and disappointments in the process did not wait too long: some
>took about 8 to format (writing speeds of 15~17 MB. /sec., reasonably
>“high” for usb 2.0) and the rest between 17 and 21 minutes, which means
>that at most they reached typical usbs 1.0 speeds, with “variable”
>formatting times (nor did I want to do the speed calculations so as not
>to get bitter).
>
>Of course, with these pendrive it is true that “random access”...
>
>What really annoyed me was, when I observed the speed of the process of
>formatting the “slow” pendrives, that I could see that at first the
>advance, in general, seemed “normal” for the first/second gigabytes and
>that then there was, visually, almost a stoppage in the speed of that
>advance until its completion. This, in my opinion, clearly indicates
>that the manufacturer (again, another manufacturer) has mixed chips with
>“fast” access along with very slow chips, placing access to the fastest
>“at the beginning” so that the usual test tools give “good results”.
>
>That is why I, personally, [no longer] use the typical test tools that
>usually only verify a “minimum” part (just the “initial”) of the total
>capacity of the external disks/pendrives. I prefer to take a little
>longer and perform my writing/formatting tests more comprehensively due
>to the bad experiences I have had with different memory manufacturers.
>
>However, in my tests none of the pendrives gave write errors: a simple
>method to know is to use chkdsk (in the command console) when the
>formatting is finished and check that the text “bad sectors” does not
>appear.
>
>Of the 10 pendrives, 7 had an acceptable speed (one took 10 minutes, but
>I “accept it with resignation” as passable) and 3 were horribly slow.
>
>As the overall price is reasonable, I don't dare complain about it, but
>I value it with only one star because of the “unexpected surprises” I
>have encountered.
>
>I'm sorry about the whole thing, but I think this is the only way to
>show the problem and try to help other less experienced users perform
>their own checks more guaranteably."

Why dont testers use h2testw.exe? So simple, so accurate and spots wrap
around every time if the complete drive is tested, and gives the actual
read and write average speeds. C+

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: Pancho.J...@proton.me (Pancho)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
is slooow!
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:20:57 +0000
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 by: Pancho - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:20 UTC

On 27/01/2023 00:02, Java Jive wrote:
> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
> hardware relevant to both OSs!
>
> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
> over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive  ...
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>
> ... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
> that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
> beginning with cheaper very slow chips.
>
> Like everyone else, I've heard of USB sticks having fractions of the
> memory that they are specified to have, with the memory wrapping back to
> the beginning for address ranges beyond the physical limit actually
> installed, but the above claim is a new con on me.  Has anyone else
> encountered this?
>

I've often noticed, the initial speed writing a large file is fast, but
then slows dramatically after some time. I assumed some type of fast
cache memory was used. Caches have always been a thing, and are
generally sensible, although it is misleading to claim cache speed is
the total write speed.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

<vhqcajx6rn.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:53 UTC

On 2023-01-27 12:20, Pancho wrote:
> On 27/01/2023 00:02, Java Jive wrote:
>> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about
>> USB hardware relevant to both OSs!
>>
>> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal
>> all over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive  ...
>>
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>>
>> ... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning
>> so that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond
>> the beginning with cheaper very slow chips.
>>
>> Like everyone else, I've heard of USB sticks having fractions of the
>> memory that they are specified to have, with the memory wrapping back
>> to the beginning for address ranges beyond the physical limit actually
>> installed, but the above claim is a new con on me.  Has anyone else
>> encountered this?
>>
>
> I've often noticed, the initial speed writing a large file is fast, but
> then slows dramatically after some time. I assumed some type of fast
> cache memory was used. Caches have always been a thing, and are
> generally sensible, although it is misleading to claim cache speed is
> the total write speed.

Yes, but the difference in speed when writing to the cache or directly
is brutal.

Still, it would be better to use some software designed to test
thumbdrives for this. So, for now, it is only a suspicion. Needs further
testing/verification.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: anton....@g{oogle}mail.com (Anton Shepelev)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning,
rest is slooow!
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 by: Anton Shepelev - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:03 UTC

Carlos E.R.:

> Still, it would be better to use some software designed to
> test thumbdrives for this. So, for now, it is only a
> suspicion. Needs further testing/verification.

The speed of bad-o]block tests in USB-imaging software may be
a reliable indicator. These tests include read-only and
read-write tests with various patterns.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: use...@andyburns.uk (Andy Burns)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
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 by: Andy Burns - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:19 UTC

Java Jive wrote:

> claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so that
> it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
> beginning with cheaper very slow chips.

The closest to that I've heard is some SSDs have a small area of SLC for
initial writes and then the rest MLC/TLC/QLC, the SLC being faster and
more durable

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From: V...@nguard.LH (VanguardLH)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!
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 by: VanguardLH - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 15:51 UTC

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
> hardware relevant to both OSs!
>
> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
> over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive ...
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>
> ... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
> that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
> beginning with cheaper very slow chips.
>
> Like everyone else, I've heard of USB sticks having fractions of the
> memory that they are specified to have, with the memory wrapping back to
> the beginning for address ranges beyond the physical limit actually
> installed, but the above claim is a new con on me. Has anyone else
> encountered this?

Of the USB flash drives that I've dismantled (after they
catastrophically fail due to exceeding the maximum write cycles), there
is only one chip inside.

https://www.usbmemorydirect.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/USB-flash-drive-motherboard-1.jpg

One chip is the for hardware interface between memory chip and the USB
protocol interface (aka mass storage controller). The other chip (just
one) is for the flash memory.

If a brand and model doesn't provide a spec sheet listing the sustained
read and write speeds, don't get that USB drive. There are lots of
cheap and promotional USB drives, and they're crap for speed. I usually
look at write speed, because read speed will be inherently faster.
However, if you intend to write once to use the USB drive as archival
storage, and since reads are non-destructive to flash memory, perhaps
fast write speed isn't much of a concern to you other than the first
time you add more files to the drive.

If there are multi-chip flash memory USB drives, I haven't seen them;
however, I don't buy crappy cheap no-name USB flash drives. Having to
wave solder multiple flash chips on a PCB with pads with multiple chips
would seem to be a more expensive manufacture process than having just
one flash chip to mount on the PCB. If you cannot find complete specs,
included read/write performances as bps or IOPs, on a drive, don't buy
that drive. You're getting an unknown that is sold solely on capacity,
and not on performance. Most consumers only look at capacity, and then
later find performance sucks.

Until the one making accusations provides proof, it looks more like
someone dissatisfied with their purchase spewing FUD. Also sounds like
someone that doesn't know the difference between burst or buffered mode
and sustained mode.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
is slooow!
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:41 UTC

On 2023-01-27 13:03, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Carlos E.R.:
>
>> Still, it would be better to use some software designed to
>> test thumbdrives for this. So, for now, it is only a
>> suspicion. Needs further testing/verification.
>
> The speed of bad-o]block tests in USB-imaging software may be
> a reliable indicator. These tests include read-only and
> read-write tests with various patterns.

That burns the thing out. It is destructive.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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From: jav...@evij.com.invalid (Java Jive)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
is slooow!
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:01:47 +0000
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 by: Java Jive - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:01 UTC

On 27/01/2023 00:02, Java Jive wrote:
>
> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
> hardware relevant to both OSs!
>
> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
> over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive  ...
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>
> .... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
> that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
> beginning with cheaper very slow chips.

Thanks for all the informative replies, all of which I've read.

It seems to me that most probably what the reviewer was actually
measuring was the difference between cache and memory write speeds.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

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Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
is slooow!
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 by: Java Jive - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:10 UTC

On 27/01/2023 15:51, VanguardLH wrote:
> Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
>> hardware relevant to both OSs!
>>
>> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
>> over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive ...
>>
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>>
>> ... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
>> that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
>> beginning with cheaper very slow chips.
>>
>> Like everyone else, I've heard of USB sticks having fractions of the
>> memory that they are specified to have, with the memory wrapping back to
>> the beginning for address ranges beyond the physical limit actually
>> installed, but the above claim is a new con on me. Has anyone else
>> encountered this?
>
> Of the USB flash drives that I've dismantled (after they
> catastrophically fail due to exceeding the maximum write cycles), there
> is only one chip inside.
>
> https://www.usbmemorydirect.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/USB-flash-drive-motherboard-1.jpg
>
> One chip is the for hardware interface between memory chip and the USB
> protocol interface (aka mass storage controller). The other chip (just
> one) is for the flash memory.
>
> If a brand and model doesn't provide a spec sheet listing the sustained
> read and write speeds, don't get that USB drive. There are lots of
> cheap and promotional USB drives, and they're crap for speed. I usually
> look at write speed, because read speed will be inherently faster.
> However, if you intend to write once to use the USB drive as archival
> storage, and since reads are non-destructive to flash memory, perhaps
> fast write speed isn't much of a concern to you other than the first
> time you add more files to the drive.
>
> If there are multi-chip flash memory USB drives, I haven't seen them;
> however, I don't buy crappy cheap no-name USB flash drives. Having to
> wave solder multiple flash chips on a PCB with pads with multiple chips
> would seem to be a more expensive manufacture process than having just
> one flash chip to mount on the PCB. If you cannot find complete specs,
> included read/write performances as bps or IOPs, on a drive, don't buy
> that drive. You're getting an unknown that is sold solely on capacity,
> and not on performance. Most consumers only look at capacity, and then
> later find performance sucks.
>
> Until the one making accusations provides proof, it looks more like
> someone dissatisfied with their purchase spewing FUD. Also sounds like
> someone that doesn't know the difference between burst or buffered mode
> and sustained mode.

Thanks for a most informative post. Your point about the extra
complexity of multiple instead of single chips possibly increasing
rather than reducing costs is reasonably convincing.

I too have noticed that many USB sticks seem slower at writing large
amounts of data, and I think the difference between cache and memory
write speeds is the most likely explanation to be correct.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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Newsgroups: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.windows7.general
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 21:24 UTC

On 2023-01-27 21:01, Java Jive wrote:
> On 27/01/2023 00:02, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about
>> USB hardware relevant to both OSs!
>>
>> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal
>> all over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive  ...
>>
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1
>>
>> .... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning
>> so that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond
>> the beginning with cheaper very slow chips.
>
> Thanks for all the informative replies, all of which I've read.
>
> It seems to me that most probably what the reviewer was actually
> measuring was the difference between cache and memory write speeds.

Dunno.

Cache write is orders of magnitude faster than actual write. It is easy
to notice.

He mentions a "writing speeds of 15~17 MB" initially", and that is not
cache speed, which would be at least in the hundreds, depending on
available RAM.

But he was not writing files, he was formatting (slow formatting). Is
the cache caching that?

I read the original text in Spanish, and he says that it goes reasonable
fast for the first gigabyte or two, and then it stalled. He says he did
not use "test tools" because they don't test the whole thumbdrive.

In any case, the information is only grounds for further, proper
investigation.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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 by: Ant - Fri, 27 Jan 2023 23:41 UTC

It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
old 128 MB that STILL work today.

In alt.os.linux Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about USB
> hardware relevant to both OSs!

> In a review raising the spectre of the VW emissions testing scandal all
> over again, an Amazon customer for this 128GB USB 3.1 drive ...

> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08LG94ZR8/ref=twister_B08R5S2ZWG?th=1

> ... claims that the manufacturer has put fast chips at the beginning so
> that it passes review tests well, but fills up the memory beyond the
> beginning with cheaper very slow chips.

> Like everyone else, I've heard of USB sticks having fractions of the
> memory that they are specified to have, with the memory wrapping back to
> the beginning for address ranges beyond the physical limit actually
> installed, but the above claim is a new con on me. Has anyone else
> encountered this?

> FTR, here's what he says in full (auto-translated from Spanish into
> English) ...

> "Cliente Amazon
> 1.0 out of 5 stars Satisfaction and disappointment mixed
> Reviewed in Spain on 10 December 2019
> Verified Purchase

> As on previous occasions I had already happened with other Chinese
> manufacturers that the external pendrives or SSD disks not only did not
> fulfill what was promised but were also a complete deception, since they
> mixed internally two types of memory (fast at first and very slow
> afterwards), I decided to do a complete test for each of the 10
> pendrives. I will try to explain the process I performed as best as
> possible for less experienced users.

> I proceeded to format each pendrive by unchecking the ???Quick Format???
> option, controlling the initial and final time to determine the actual
> write speed (which is what formatting basically does).

> The joys and disappointments in the process did not wait too long: some
> took about 8 to format (writing speeds of 15~17 MB. /sec., reasonably
> ???high??? for usb 2.0) and the rest between 17 and 21 minutes, which means
> that at most they reached typical usbs 1.0 speeds, with ???variable???
> formatting times (nor did I want to do the speed calculations so as not
> to get bitter).

> Of course, with these pendrive it is true that ???random access???...

> What really annoyed me was, when I observed the speed of the process of
> formatting the ???slow??? pendrives, that I could see that at first the
> advance, in general, seemed ???normal??? for the first/second gigabytes and
> that then there was, visually, almost a stoppage in the speed of that
> advance until its completion. This, in my opinion, clearly indicates
> that the manufacturer (again, another manufacturer) has mixed chips with
> ???fast??? access along with very slow chips, placing access to the fastest
> ???at the beginning??? so that the usual test tools give ???good results???.

> That is why I, personally, [no longer] use the typical test tools that
> usually only verify a ???minimum??? part (just the ???initial???) of the total
> capacity of the external disks/pendrives. I prefer to take a little
> longer and perform my writing/formatting tests more comprehensively due
> to the bad experiences I have had with different memory manufacturers.

> However, in my tests none of the pendrives gave write errors: a simple
> method to know is to use chkdsk (in the command console) when the
> formatting is finished and check that the text ???bad sectors??? does not
> appear.

> Of the 10 pendrives, 7 had an acceptable speed (one took 10 minutes, but
> I ???accept it with resignation??? as passable) and 3 were horribly slow.

> As the overall price is reasonable, I don't dare complain about it, but
> I value it with only one star because of the ???unexpected surprises??? I
> have encountered.

> I'm sorry about the whole thing, but I think this is the only way to
> show the problem and try to help other less experienced users perform
> their own checks more guaranteably."

--
"But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us." --2 Corinthians 4:7. :) (L/C)NY 4721 [h2o black ????/(\_/)]! TGIF after passing out after 10:18 PM 4 >7h after a shreddy Th even wo new TV eps.
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Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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 by: Paul - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 05:36 UTC

On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
> old 128 MB that STILL work today.

That's because it is SLC.

Paul

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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 by: Ant - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 08:16 UTC

In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
> > It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
> > old 128 MB that STILL work today.

> That's because it is SLC.

https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
was an interesting read.
--
"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being." --Ephesians 3:16. Wandering Earth 1 was a meh, but will 2 B better?
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Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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 by: Paul - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 08:43 UTC

On 1/28/2023 3:16 AM, Ant wrote:
> In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
>>> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
>>> old 128 MB that STILL work today.
>
>> That's because it is SLC.
>
> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
> was an interesting read.
>

Micron made a 32GB SLC flash chip.

But it appears to be a tease and does not
seem to ship in a USB stick.

Some person in China took a picture of a
USB3 stick, with the 32GB SLC flash chip
fitted to it. But it appeared to be for the
purpose of selling some other inferior product.
I doubt they ever had stock of those sticks,
just a prototype or a mockup of one.

There is a smaller company that makes SLC flash,
but their flash chips are the small capacity ones. And the pricing
is what you would expect for such a thing. No matter
what the capacity, they're $100+. You sometimes see
them listed as "industrial USB stick" on the electronics
company sites.

Paul

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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 by: Ravi Kapoor - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 20:30 UTC

On 28/01/2023 08:16, Ant wrote:
> In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
>>> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
>>> old 128 MB that STILL work today.
>> That's because it is SLC.
> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
> was an interesting read.
Have the flash industry managed to sort out the size of 1GB yet? I
bought a 256GB flash drive sometime ago but it had only 231GB. People
told me that it is because nobody uses correct measurement yet. Is 1GB =
1000MB or is it 1024MB. I have not been able to reconcile how 256GB is
only 231GB when reformatted as NTFS or exFAT (default). I lost 25GB
unnecessarily.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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In-Reply-To: <tr4041$2cb13$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Carlos E.R. - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:51 UTC

On 2023-01-28 21:30, Ravi Kapoor wrote:
> On 28/01/2023 08:16, Ant wrote:
>> In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
>>>> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
>>>> old 128 MB that STILL work today.
>>> That's because it is SLC.
>> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>> was an interesting read.
> Have the flash industry managed to sort out the size of 1GB yet? I
> bought a 256GB flash drive sometime ago but it had only 231GB. People
> told me that it is because nobody uses correct measurement yet. Is 1GB =
> 1000MB or is it 1024MB. I have not been able to reconcile how 256GB is
> only 231GB when reformatted as NTFS or exFAT (default). I lost 25GB
> unnecessarily.

There is no confusion at all, except for you. You have to study and
learn the different units.

The industry has very clear that 1 GiB = 1024 MiB, and 1 GB = 1000 MB.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte#Multiple-byte_units>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte#Consumer_confusion>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Ravi Kapoor)
Newsgroups: alt.windows7.general,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
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 by: Ravi Kapoor - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 22:30 UTC

On 28/01/2023 21:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-01-28 21:30, Ravi Kapoor wrote:
>> On 28/01/2023 08:16, Ant wrote:
>>> In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
>>>>> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still
>>>>> have
>>>>> old 128 MB that STILL work today.
>>>> That's because it is SLC.
>>> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>>>
>>> was an interesting read.
>> Have the flash industry managed to sort out the size of 1GB yet? I
>> bought a 256GB flash drive sometime ago but it had only 231GB. People
>> told me that it is because nobody uses correct measurement yet. Is 1GB =
>> 1000MB or is it 1024MB. I have not been able to reconcile how 256GB is
>> only 231GB when reformatted as NTFS or exFAT (default). I lost 25GB
>> unnecessarily.
>
> There is no confusion at all, except for you. You have to study and
> learn the different units.
>
> The industry has very clear that 1 GiB = 1024 MiB, and 1 GB = 1000 MB.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte#Multiple-byte_units>
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte#Consumer_confusion>
>
So you are very clever here. How do you work out 256GB = 231GB? Use your
figures to demonstrate this, Mr Clever.

(256 x 1000) / 1024 = 250

How does 250 compare with 231? You can reconcile the figures for us to
understand better.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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From: Ken...@invalid.news.com (Ken Blake)
Newsgroups: alt.windows7.general,alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!
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 by: Ken Blake - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 23:00 UTC

On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 20:30:30 +0000, Ravi Kapoor
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 28/01/2023 08:16, Ant wrote:
>> In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
>>>> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
>>>> old 128 MB that STILL work today.
>>> That's because it is SLC.
>> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>> was an interesting read.
>Have the flash industry managed to sort out the size of 1GB yet? I
>bought a 256GB flash drive sometime ago but it had only 231GB. People
>told me that it is because nobody uses correct measurement yet. Is 1GB =
>1000MB or is it 1024MB. I have not been able to reconcile how 256GB is
>only 231GB when reformatted as NTFS or exFAT (default). I lost 25GB
>unnecessarily.

It has nothing to do with the flash industry. All hard drive
manufacturers define 1TB as 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, while the rest of
the computer world, including Windows, defines it as 2 to the 40th
power (1,099,511,637,776) bytes. So a 5 trillion byte drive is
actually around 4.5TB.
Some people point out that the official international standard defines
the "T" of TB as one trillion, not1,099,511,637,776. Correct though
they are, using the binary value of TB is so well established in the
computer world that I consider using the decimal value of a trillion
to be deceptive marketing on the part of the hard drive manufacturer.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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Newsgroups: alt.windows7.general,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
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 by: Java Jive - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 23:06 UTC

On 28/01/2023 22:30, Ravi Kapoor wrote:
>
> On 28/01/2023 21:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> The industry has very clear that 1 GiB = 1024 MiB, and 1 GB = 1000 MB.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte#Multiple-byte_units>
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte#Consumer_confusion>
>
> So you are very clever here. How do you work out 256GB = 231GB? Use your
> figures to demonstrate this, Mr Clever.
>
> (256 x 1000) / 1024 = 250
>
> How does 250 compare with 231? You can reconcile the figures for us to
> understand better.

'The industry', whatever exactly that means, may say one thing, but what
really matters is what people do, and the fact remains that I rarely see
GiB in practice, and OSs do one thing while disk manufacturers do another.

In OSs, and BTW this is also what I was taught in academia, ...
1KB = 1024 bytes
1MB = 1024 KB
1GB = 1024 MB
.... but to storage manufacturers ...
1KB = 1000 bytes
1MB = 1000 of their KB
1GB = 1000 of their MB

Hence to convert disk manufacturers' GB figures to OS' GB figures, you
have to multiply by (1000/1024)^3, giving ...
256 (manufacturer) GB x 1000^3 / 1024^3 = 238 (OS) GB

Then there will be some file system overhead to deduct after that.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

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Newsgroups: alt.windows7.general,uk.comp.os.linux,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Sat, 28 Jan 2023 23:38 UTC

On 2023-01-28 23:30, Ravi Kapoor wrote:
> On 28/01/2023 21:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-01-28 21:30, Ravi Kapoor wrote:
>>> On 28/01/2023 08:16, Ant wrote:
>>>> In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
>>>>>> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> old 128 MB that STILL work today.
>>>>> That's because it is SLC.
>>>> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>>>> was an interesting read.
>>> Have the flash industry managed to sort out the size of 1GB yet? I
>>> bought a 256GB flash drive sometime ago but it had only 231GB. People
>>> told me that it is because nobody uses correct measurement yet. Is 1GB =
>>> 1000MB or is it 1024MB. I have not been able to reconcile how 256GB is
>>> only 231GB when reformatted as NTFS or exFAT (default). I lost 25GB
>>> unnecessarily.
>>
>> There is no confusion at all, except for you. You have to study and
>> learn the different units.
>>
>> The industry has very clear that 1 GiB = 1024 MiB, and 1 GB = 1000 MB.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte#Multiple-byte_units>
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte#Consumer_confusion>
>>
> So you are very clever here. How do you work out 256GB = 231GB? Use your
> figures to demonstrate this, Mr Clever.
>
> (256 x 1000) / 1024 = 250

256×10^9÷(1024^3) = 238,418579102

That is, 256 GB = 238 GiB. The rest is used in the filesystem overhead.

>
> How does 250 compare with 231? You can reconcile the figures for us to
> understand better.
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Re: Claim: Cheap USB Sticks have fast memory only at beginning, rest is slooow!

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Newsgroups: alt.windows7.general,alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux
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 by: Paul - Sun, 29 Jan 2023 00:17 UTC

On 1/28/2023 4:51 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-01-28 21:30, Ravi Kapoor wrote:
>> On 28/01/2023 08:16, Ant wrote:
>>> In alt.os.linux Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 1/27/2023 6:41 PM, Ant wrote:
>>>>> It's hard to find good reviews on these USB flash sticks. I still have
>>>>> old 128 MB that STILL work today.
>>>> That's because it is SLC.
>>> https://www.kingston.com/en/blog/pc-performance/difference-between-slc-mlc-tlc-3d-nand
>>> was an interesting read.
>> Have the flash industry managed to sort out the size of 1GB yet? I
>> bought a 256GB flash drive sometime ago but it had only 231GB. People
>> told me that it is because nobody uses correct measurement yet. Is 1GB =
>> 1000MB or is it 1024MB. I have not been able to reconcile how 256GB is
>> only 231GB when reformatted as NTFS or exFAT (default). I lost 25GB
>> unnecessarily.
>
> There is no confusion at all, except for you. You have to study and learn the different units.
>
> The industry has very clear that 1 GiB = 1024 MiB, and 1 GB = 1000 MB.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte#Multiple-byte_units>
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte#Consumer_confusion>
>

The legends on packaging and on computer screens can be wrong,
so the blame is not always with the user. They switch between GB and GiB
in a willy-nilly fashion.

If I pipe dd to wc -c , I can count the bytes that way :-)

When I use slightly more efficient methods, this is what I get

"128GB" stick = 128,983,236,608 bytes [they are using the decimal method like HDD do]
"1GB" stick = 1,006,108,672 bytes [they are using the decimal method like HDD do]

Then the computer screen does the math for GiB, but prints "GB" next
to the resulting number. Unnecessarily scaring the user.

The above numbers, do not involve any file systems, so these sample
numbers are not a side effect of "formatting". These numbers
are collected from the physical layer.

Paul

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