On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern cars
don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this gives
us something to talk about)

It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a roll
over for example.

--
"his opinions have been crushed into insignificant dust by
the enormous weight of his lies"- Alvey on the Fraudster

On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
>
> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern
> cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this
> gives us something to talk about)
>
> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
> roll over for example.
>

p.s. Happy New Year everyone.  :)

--
"his opinions have been crushed into insignificant dust by
the enormous weight of his lies"- Alvey on the Fraudster

On 2/1/22 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
>
> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern cars
> don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this gives
> us something to talk about)

two points to note here. Point 1. Pretty much all cars now have rack and
pinion steering and power assist. Rack and pinion is generally more
direct than, say, recirculating ball steering boxes. 3.5-4 turns lock to
lock was common on such *old* steering boxes. The power steering also
makes more direct steering possible. Point 2. The *old cars* I grew up
with and worked on in my early days in the trade pretty much all had
cross ply or bias ply tyres of a reasonably high profile. The sidewise
give in the sidewalls along with the very large slip angles produced at
the tread guaranteed *lag* and general vagueness in the steering.

Almost forgot, there are no *production* cars that I am aware of that
are *steer* by wire beyond some exotic models like the up market
Infiniti model and, I think, some models of Tesla. But they are rare.
The most common definition and example of *drive by wire* thus far is
throttle control by wire. Were they referring to this rather than *steer
by wire*? Steer by wire would be considered so rare that you really
can't factor it into the accident stats at this point in time.
Personally, I like my steering wheel with a *fail safe* connection to
the road wheels.
>
> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a roll
> over for example.
>
If you are used to the car, this shouldn't be an issue. That said, some
car suspensions are mismatched to the tyres - even OEM factory fitted
tyres. That can lead to the yaw frequency matching the suspension
frequency. That's what happened with the A Class Benz when it was first
released, the motoring journalists rolled one on a demo day. The first
fix item on the agenda was to stiffen the suspension in roll so that it
was impossible for the driver to switch from one lock to the other fast
enough to get into phase with the side to side rocking of the body.
Other changes included widening of the rear track, stiffer front
anti-roll bar, smaller rolling radius tyres and default standard OEM
fitment of ESP (stability control).

The downside to those mods was a noticeably more harsh ride. Remember
what you complained about on your MG? There was probably a very good
reason why the ride on that car was harsh and it had to do with
maintaining stability under the sort of movements, like the *Elk Test*,
that the A Class came to grief with.

What people don't often realise is that handling, braking, performance,
etc, in modern cars is *still* a mass of compromises. Sure, the
manufacturer can make you a car that handles like a race car but it sure
won't be a *comfortable boulevard cruiser* if they do that.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 2/01/2022 3:57 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>
>>
>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
>> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
>> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern
>> cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
>> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this
>> gives us something to talk about)
>>
>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>> roll over for example.
>>
>
> p.s. Happy New Year everyone.  :)
>
>

Happy new year to you too!

On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
>
> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern cars
> don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this gives
> us something to talk about)

**Points:

* Sounds like complete bullshit to me. The first cars I drove were: VP
Valiant, EH Holden and FC Holden (my first car). All had horrible
steering (unassisted). All were vague and just generally unpleasant to
drive. I assume they were recirculating ball type steering. Then I
bought a Ford Escort. It was a revelation. It actually went where I
pointed it! Rack and pinion (unassisted) steering will do that for you.
That and radial tyres. Unlike the Holdens and Valiant I drove, sometimes
I would jump in the Escort just to enjoy the trill of driving. It didn't
matter where. It was just fun.

* Most modern cars have some kind of power assistance for the steering
(pretty much necessary for FWD cars). Traditionally, that has been
hydraulic power assistance. IMO, the very best assisted steering cars
was not quite as direct as my old Escort was.

* My 2001 Nissan Stagea is rack and pinion, with hydraulic power assist.
My 2018 Subaru Levorg is electric power assist. It is extremely
responsive and quite direct and better than my Nissan. It is STILL not
as direct as my old Escort.

* AFAIK, Honda was the first company with electric power steering assist
in the mighty NSX. It has three motors mounted somewhere in the steering
system. Electric power sterring will likely be the only type available
in coming years, as it can work with collision avoidance systems, lane
keeping systems and the like.

>
> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a roll
> over for example.

**Yeah, no, that's bullshit. The fundamental requirement of a steering
system is to ensure that the vehicle goes where the driver wants it to.
And, like everything, the driver will become accustomed to a particular
type of steering system.

I should add something about a 'rollover'. Modern cars (IOW: Anything
manufactured after, oh I dunno, 1955, except old VWs and a couple of
others) do not just 'rollover'. This was lesson #1 in the Peter Wherrett
advanced driving course I completed back in 1972. We were then invited
to try to roll our cars. It can't be done, UNLESS you strike a gutter,
pothole or some other object that prevents a car, that is moving
sideways, from continuing to move sideways. Hitting a (say) gutter at
sufficient speed may cause a car to roll. I should add that the first
Mercedes A Class could be induced to rollover, provided the driver was
sufficiently motivated to cause the car to do so. Apart from that,
modern cars do no rollover.

On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
>
> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern cars
> don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this gives
> us something to talk about)
>
> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a roll
> over for example.
>

**OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric power
steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first electric
power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the first modern
manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.

Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic power
steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY vigorously
and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so don't take it too
seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can back the claim. UNless
the electrical system fails, electric power steering never runs out of
juice.

On 4/1/22 5:56 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>
>>
>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
>> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
>> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern
>> cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
>> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this
>> gives us something to talk about)
>
> **Points:
>
> * Sounds like complete bullshit to me.

There are few car that don't have a direct connection between the
steering wheel and the wheels, some model Tesla, some more recent Toyota
and Infinity.
https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/how-steer-by-wire-works

The first cars I drove were: VP
> Valiant, EH Holden and FC Holden (my first car). All had horrible
> steering (unassisted). All were vague and just generally unpleasant to
> drive. I assume they were recirculating ball type steering. Then I
> bought a Ford Escort. It was a revelation. It actually went where I
> pointed it! Rack and pinion (unassisted) steering will do that for you.
> That and radial tyres. Unlike the Holdens and Valiant I drove, sometimes
> I would jump in the Escort just to enjoy the trill of driving. It didn't
> matter where. It was just fun.

The Escort was a light car so direct steering works fine, not so good on
a heavier car.
Escort steering racks are very common on Lotus 7 replicas which usually
weigh less than 700kg, you can even get rack with different ratio's, the
most direct are call "quick rack".
>
> * Most modern cars have some kind of power assistance for the steering
> (pretty much necessary for FWD cars). Traditionally, that has been
> hydraulic power assistance. IMO, the very best assisted steering cars
> was not quite as direct as my old Escort was.
>
> * My 2001 Nissan Stagea is rack and pinion, with hydraulic power assist.
> My 2018 Subaru Levorg is electric power assist. It is extremely
> responsive and quite direct and better than my Nissan. It is STILL not
> as direct as my old Escort.
>
> * AFAIK, Honda was the first company with electric power steering assist
> in the mighty NSX. It has three motors mounted somewhere in the steering
> system. Electric power sterring will likely be the only type available
> in coming years, as it can work with collision avoidance systems, lane
> keeping systems and the like.
>
>>
>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>> roll over for example.
>
> **Yeah, no, that's bullshit. The fundamental requirement of a steering
> system is to ensure that the vehicle goes where the driver wants it to.
> And, like everything, the driver will become accustomed to a particular
> type of steering system.

Agree, sounds like BS.
Old Rolls Royces and a few other makes had very vague steering from new,
apparently it was deliberate, they called it the sneeze factor, a driver
could sneeze and even if in sneezing they yanked the steering wheel not
much would happen.
A long time age I had a drive of a mid 60's Jag 420 that belonged to
someone who used to post here, the steering was so vague it was near
impossible to keep it in a straight line, the owner thought that it was
normal.

--
Daryl

On 4/01/2022 9:59 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 4/1/22 5:56 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than
>>> in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,
>>> because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that
>>> modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection
>>> to the steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but
>>> this gives us something to talk about)
>>
>> **Points:
>>
>> * Sounds like complete bullshit to me.
>
> There are few car that don't have a direct connection between the
> steering wheel and the wheels, some model Tesla, some more recent Toyota
> and Infinity.
> https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/how-steer-by-wire-works
>
>  The first cars I drove were: VP
>> Valiant, EH Holden and FC Holden (my first car). All had horrible
>> steering (unassisted). All were vague and just generally unpleasant to
>> drive. I assume they were recirculating ball type steering. Then I
>> bought a Ford Escort. It was a revelation. It actually went where I
>> pointed it! Rack and pinion (unassisted) steering will do that for
>> you. That and radial tyres. Unlike the Holdens and Valiant I drove,
>> sometimes I would jump in the Escort just to enjoy the trill of
>> driving. It didn't matter where. It was just fun.
>
> The Escort was a light car so direct steering works fine, not so good on
> a heavier car.

**Well, none of my cars have had power steer, except for my VP
Commodore. ALL the Holdens I've owned had shit steering.

> Escort steering racks are very common on Lotus 7 replicas which usually
> weigh less than 700kg, you can even get rack with different ratio's, the
> most direct are call "quick rack".
>>
>> * Most modern cars have some kind of power assistance for the steering
>> (pretty much necessary for FWD cars). Traditionally, that has been
>> hydraulic power assistance. IMO, the very best assisted steering cars
>> was not quite as direct as my old Escort was.
>>
>> * My 2001 Nissan Stagea is rack and pinion, with hydraulic power
>> assist. My 2018 Subaru Levorg is electric power assist. It is
>> extremely responsive and quite direct and better than my Nissan. It is
>> STILL not as direct as my old Escort.
>>
>> * AFAIK, Honda was the first company with electric power steering
>> assist in the mighty NSX. It has three motors mounted somewhere in the
>> steering system. Electric power sterring will likely be the only type
>> available in coming years, as it can work with collision avoidance
>> systems, lane keeping systems and the like.
>>
>>>
>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>>> roll over for example.
>>
>> **Yeah, no, that's bullshit. The fundamental requirement of a steering
>> system is to ensure that the vehicle goes where the driver wants it
>> to. And, like everything, the driver will become accustomed to a
>> particular type of steering system.
>
> Agree, sounds like BS.
> Old Rolls Royces and a few other makes had very vague steering from new,
> apparently it was deliberate, they called it the sneeze factor, a driver
> could sneeze and even if in sneezing they yanked the steering wheel not
> much would happen.
> A long time age I had a drive of a mid 60's Jag 420 that belonged to
> someone who used to post here, the steering was so vague it was near
> impossible to keep it in a straight line, the owner thought that it was
> normal.
>
>

**Doesn't surprise me. A mate of mine owned an XJS and a Merc 450SEL
back in the early 1980s. I took them both for a drive. The XJS had very
light steering, which completely divorced me from the road. The (V12)
engine was a delight, but the steering was horrible. By comparison, the
biggest compliment I could pay to the Merc was that it felt as nimble as
my Escort! It had excellent 'feel' and it enabled me to point the Merc
exactly where I wanted it to go. The owned was offended, but I reckon
the Merc was an astonishing thing. Big, heavy, but a really nice drive.
I am not surprised that it was the vehicle of choice for third world
dictators.

On 4/1/22 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>
>>
>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
>> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
>> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern
>> cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
>> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this
>> gives us something to talk about)
>>
>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>> roll over for example.
>>
>
> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric power
> steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first electric
> power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the first modern
> manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>
> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic power
> steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY vigorously
> and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so don't take it too

Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may be
possible. Shockers (hydraulic) will run out of damping when a vehicle is
driven vigorously over rough roads at speed due to aeration and heating
of the oil so that could apply to PS as well. That said, you would need
to be driving extremely vigorously indeed. Can't see it myself but you
never know. What hydraulic power does is run out of pressure when the
engine speed is low or at idle. Whenever the system is not providing
assist, there is always free flow of fluid. When assist is needed, flow
is restricted so that pressure is increased commensurate with the amount
of assistance required. The difficulty lies with the fact that at times
of low flow when the engine is at idle or slow speed, there may not be
sufficient pressure built up to provide the required degree of assist.
As well, if the engine stalls out for whatever reason, there will be a
sudden loss of assist.

> seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can back the claim. UNless
> the electrical system fails, electric power steering never runs out of
> juice.

Yes, plenty of juice - even if the engine is idling or stalls out -
courtesy of the *battery*. Plus it can be controlled by the BCM
independently of driver input.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 3/1/22 7:27 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 2/01/2022 3:57 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than
>>> in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,
>>> because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that
>>> modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection
>>> to the steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but
>>> this gives us something to talk about)
>>>
>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>>> roll over for example.
>>>
>>
>> p.s. Happy New Year everyone.  :)
>>
>>
>
> Happy new year to you too!
>
A Happy and Safe New Year to all (no restrictions).

Last new year party yesterday at Grafton.

We ate, we drank, we were merry, and now we shall diet.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
> On 4/1/22 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than
>>> in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,
>>> because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that
>>> modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection
>>> to the steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but
>>> this gives us something to talk about)
>>>
>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>>> roll over for example.
>>>
>>
>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>
>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic power
>> steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY vigorously
>> and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so don't take it too
>
> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may be
> possible.

**OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road feel
inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my recollection.

On 4/01/2022 5:56 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>
>>
>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than in
>> days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,  because
>> they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that modern
>> cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection to the
>> steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but this
>> gives us something to talk about)
>
> **Points:
>
> * Sounds like complete bullshit to me.

That's because it is :)

Felix has either got it wrong, which is highly likely, or the person he
was listening to was a complete moron. Steer by wire is an emerging
technology that is very niche indeed.

> The first cars I drove were: VP Valiant, EH Holden and FC Holden (my first car). All had horrible
> steering (unassisted). All were vague and just generally unpleasant to
> drive. I assume they were recirculating ball type steering.

Yes they were, and for the record the older they got the more they wore
out and the worse they felt. They were probably old shitheaps by the
time you got your hands on them, and they most likely weren't helped by
the fact that they had terrible tyres and suspension systems.

> Then I bought a Ford Escort. It was a revelation. It actually went where I
> pointed it! Rack and pinion (unassisted) steering will do that for you.

Not on it's own it won't :)

A Rack & Pinion steering system is certainly a more precise steering
mechanism than any steering box, but it's ability to "perform" is
limited by the chassis it's fitted to and installing one into an
otherwise average car won't transform it into a world beater. The Escort
was a great drive because it had excellent all round chassis dynamics,
either as a product of intentional design or just a fluke of it, and as
a result it made for an excellent performance car in it's day.

But that wasn't all due to it having a rack and pinion steering system.
A Ford Cortina of the same vintage *also* had a rack & pinion steering
system and they handled like shit by comparison.

> That and radial tyres. Unlike the Holdens and Valiant I drove, sometimes
> I would jump in the Escort just to enjoy the trill of driving. It didn't
> matter where. It was just fun.

There's more to it than that. Spring rates, weight balance, centre of
gravity. All of these things are key components into making a car
perform well.

> * Most modern cars have some kind of power assistance for the steering
> (pretty much necessary for FWD cars). Traditionally, that has been
> hydraulic power assistance. IMO, the very best assisted steering cars
> was not quite as direct as my old Escort was.

The "directness" of any steering system has little to do with the level
of power assistance, if any, and is all about steering ratio. In other
words, the amount of turn of the steering wheel relative to the amount
of turn of the front wheels.

> * My 2001 Nissan Stagea is rack and pinion, with hydraulic power assist.
> My 2018 Subaru Levorg is electric power assist. It is extremely
> responsive and quite direct and better than my Nissan. It is STILL not
> as direct as my old Escort.

That's just the way the designers have set the things up. It's not a
result of the steering system per se', but how the respective designers
have configured the car.

> * AFAIK, Honda was the first company with electric power steering assist
> in the mighty NSX. It has three motors mounted somewhere in the steering
> system.

Couldn't tell you if it was the first, but I don't know why it would
need three motors. Most only ever need one. Either wrapped around the
steering column shaft or hooked up directly to the rack itself.

> Electric power sterring will likely be the only type available
> in coming years, as it can work with collision avoidance systems, lane
> keeping systems and the like.

And auto parking, and any other application where the car is expected to
drive itself.

>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>> roll over for example.
>
> **Yeah, no, that's bullshit.

Absolutely.

> The fundamental requirement of a steering
> system is to ensure that the vehicle goes where the driver wants it to.

That's the general idea, but it doesn't always work out that way :)

> And, like everything, the driver will become accustomed to a particular
> type of steering system.

There is nothing to become "accustomed" to. As far as the average driver
is concerned there is no distinction to be mad between hydraulic and
electric power steering.

> I should add something about a 'rollover'. Modern cars (IOW: Anything
> manufactured after, oh I dunno, 1955, except old VWs and a couple of
> others) do not just 'rollover'. This was lesson #1 in the Peter Wherrett
> advanced driving course I completed back in 1972. We were then invited
> to try to roll our cars. It can't be done, UNLESS you strike a gutter,
> pothole or some other object that prevents a car, that is moving
> sideways, from continuing to move sideways. Hitting a (say) gutter at
> sufficient speed may cause a car to roll. I should add that the first
> Mercedes A Class could be induced to rollover, provided the driver was
> sufficiently motivated to cause the car to do so. Apart from that,
> modern cars do no rollover.

This is complete and utter bullshit :)

Short of roll over inducing suspension systems like the atrocious swing
arms found in early VW's and some "sports" cars, the ability of any
vehicle to roll over is dependent on a number of factors which include
speed, weight balance, centre of gravity, spring rates and mechanical
grip. It is entirely possible for a modern car to roll over in the right
circumstances, and to suggest otherwise is a complete nonsense.

I'm not the slightest bit surprised you got that from a Peter Wherrett
driving course, as the man was a complete flog.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 4/1/22 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was
>>>> mentioned that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive
>>>> steering than in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had
>>>> more lag, because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this
>>>> mean that modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical
>>>> connection to the steering components? (and yes, I know I could
>>>> google it, but this gives us something to talk about)
>>>>
>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>
>>>
>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>
>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>> don't take it too
>>
>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may be
>> possible.
>
> **OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
> steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
> hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road feel
> inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my recollection.
>
Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick tyres
and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they don't
need it.

--
Daryl

On 4/01/2022 10:09 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 9:59 am, Daryl wrote:

>>   The first cars I drove were: VP
>>> Valiant, EH Holden and FC Holden (my first car). All had horrible
>>> steering (unassisted). All were vague and just generally unpleasant
>>> to drive. I assume they were recirculating ball type steering. Then I
>>> bought a Ford Escort. It was a revelation. It actually went where I
>>> pointed it! Rack and pinion (unassisted) steering will do that for
>>> you. That and radial tyres. Unlike the Holdens and Valiant I drove,
>>> sometimes I would jump in the Escort just to enjoy the trill of
>>> driving. It didn't matter where. It was just fun.
>>
>> The Escort was a light car so direct steering works fine, not so good
>> on a heavier car.
>
> **Well, none of my cars have had power steer, except for my VP
> Commodore. ALL the Holdens I've owned had shit steering.

As I said, power steering has nothing to do with a vehicle's ability to
steer, and your VP had rack and pinion steering which goes to show that
the presence of a rack and pinion steering system doesn't automatically
turn a vehicle into a racing car.

>> Old Rolls Royces and a few other makes had very vague steering from
>> new, apparently it was deliberate, they called it the sneeze factor, a
>> driver could sneeze and even if in sneezing they yanked the steering
>> wheel not much would happen.

Sounds like any Ford from the 1960's :)

>> A long time age I had a drive of a mid 60's Jag 420 that belonged to
>> someone who used to post here, the steering was so vague it was near
>> impossible to keep it in a straight line, the owner thought that it
>> was normal.

And it had a rack & pinion, huh? :)

This is precisely the point. It's not much good fitting a sharp steering
mechanism to a car that has a suspension so soft and floaty will it will
fall over as soon as you yank on the wheel.

> **Doesn't surprise me. A mate of mine owned an XJS and a Merc 450SEL
> back in the early 1980s. I took them both for a drive. The XJS had very
> light steering, which completely divorced me from the road. The (V12)
> engine was a delight, but the steering was horrible.

That's because a lot of Jaguars never had speed sensitive power steering.

> By comparison, the biggest compliment I could pay to the Merc was that it felt as nimble as
> my Escort! It had excellent 'feel' and it enabled me to point the Merc
> exactly where I wanted it to go. The owned was offended, but I reckon
> the Merc was an astonishing thing. Big, heavy, but a really nice drive.
> I am not surprised that it was the vehicle of choice for third world
> dictators.

To each their own, but what you've done here is highlighted the massive
difference in car *setup*. Not component differences.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 4/1/22 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was
>>>> mentioned that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive
>>>> steering than in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had
>>>> more lag, because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this
>>>> mean that modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical
>>>> connection to the steering components? (and yes, I know I could
>>>> google it, but this gives us something to talk about)
>>>>
>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>
>>>
>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>
>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>> don't take it too
>>
>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may be
>> possible.
>
> **OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
> steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
> hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road feel
> inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my recollection.
>
As I said, I can't really see the PS running out of puff, especially in
a racing application. But did the racing cars really *need* PS anyway?
Most were lightened versions of roadgoing cars anyway. The other point I
would make at this juncture is that early PS systems were rather
insensitive and lacked adequate feedback anyway. Power Brakes were the
same. It wasn't until the 80s or 90s where PS became better at providing
the driver with *road feel* to the point that many people wouldn't pick
the car as having PS.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 4/01/2022 12:06 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 4/1/22 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>>> On 4/1/22 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was
>>>>> mentioned that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive
>>>>> steering than in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had
>>>>> more lag, because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this
>>>>> mean that modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a
>>>>> mechanical connection to the steering components? (and yes, I know
>>>>> I could google it, but this gives us something to talk about)
>>>>>
>>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>>
>>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>>> don't take it too
>>>
>>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may
>>> be possible.
>>
>> **OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
>> steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
>> hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road
>> feel inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my recollection.
>>
> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick tyres
> and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they don't
> need it.
>

**I was referring to my recollection of something I THINK I read back in
the 1970s. I drove an old Porsche back in the 1980s. Although it needed
power steering at parking speeds, it lacked it. I note that the Phase
III GTHO was available with optional PS. I betcha it was never fitted to
any GTHO that went racing.

On 4/01/2022 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:

>>
>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>> roll over for example.
>>
>
> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric power
> steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first electric
> power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the first modern
> manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.

Thanks.

> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic power
> steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY vigorously
> and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so don't take it too
> seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can back the claim.

Yeah, it's rubbish. As long as the pump is providing fluid pressure and
the system is working as it's supposed to be, they don't run out of
assistance.

> UNless the electrical system fails, electric power steering never runs out of
> juice.

Electric power steering systems aren't without their faults either, and
there's been some infamous issues with it. Most notably was the one in
the US about a decade ago that affected Toyota Corollas. The cars had a
bug whereby the electric power steering system would suddenly and
unexpectedly pull on full right or left lock at freeway speeds which
resulted in a number of people being killed in the resulting accidents
and Toyota recalling millions of vehicles.

Hydraulic power steering would have a hard time ever doing that.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 4/01/2022 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:

>>
>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may be
>> possible.

More amusing cluelessness from the "teacher" who failed carburetor and
brake system 101. Do yourself a favour and take whatever this moron
claims with a grain of salt Trevor, as he has absolutely *no idea* what
he's talking about :)

> **OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
> steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
> hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road feel
> inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my recollection.
And again, it's a myth and for two reasons.

Firstly, power steering in and of itself does not remove "road feel", as
you yourself discovered in driving the big Benz and comparing it to the
Jaguar.

Secondly, depending on what "racing cars" you're talking about, there
are a number of reasons why power steering systems aren't common. In the
first instance most "racing cars" are light enough to not need steering
assistance. Secondly, power steering systems cost horsepower to drive,
and thirdly a power steering system is both a weight penalty and an
introduced failure point that most probably don't need.

Still, in having said that there have been some competition cars over
the years that have run hydraulic power steering systems. You may recall
seeing this car on Australian race tracks in the 1980's:

> https://scontent.fmel8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/27788474_1825332554144645_7174595354834527284_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=gl1W5qZihGkAX-qM-ti&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel8-1.fna&oh=00_AT_GtAnRMEEtpqJ9OdPsRX6DXX0CIJ3DvUXq-DOXyzuoew&oe=61F83603

It was a successful car that ran a hydraulic power steering system
without any problems.

To move things into the modern day realm, as far as I'm aware Formula 1
cars run hydraulic power steering systems. The reason for that is
because as light as the cars are the incredible amounts of downforce
created by their wings would make steering them quite impossible without
it, and I believe the reason why they use hydraulic systems specifically
is to prevent teams from implementing illegal steering assistance
programs that would be possible with electric steering systems.

Unsurprisingly, F1 cars don't ever seem to run out of steering
assistance even with uber high rpm engines......

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 4/01/2022 12:16 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 12:06 pm, Daryl wrote:

>> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
>> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick
>> tyres and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
>> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they
>> don't need it.

Indeed.

>
> **I was referring to my recollection of something I THINK I read back in
> the 1970s. I drove an old Porsche back in the 1980s. Although it needed
> power steering at parking speeds, it lacked it. I note that the Phase
> III GTHO was available with optional PS. I betcha it was never fitted to
> any GTHO that went racing.

Probably not, because they didn't *need* it.

As you just said, the Porsche you drove needed power steering at parking
speeds, but I expect at high speed it was just fine. Similarly, the
GTHO's that raced back in the day didn't spend a hell of a lot of time
at low speed where power steering would have made any difference.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 4/1/22 12:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
>>>
>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>>> roll over for example.
>>>
>>
>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic power
>> steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY vigorously
>> and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so don't take it
>> too seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can back the claim.
>
> Yeah, it's rubbish. As long as the pump is providing fluid pressure and
> the system is working as it's supposed to be, they don't run out of
> assistance.
>
>> UNless the electrical system fails, electric power steering never runs
>> out of juice.
>
> Electric power steering systems aren't without their faults either, and
> there's been some infamous issues with it. Most notably was the one in
> the US about a decade ago that affected Toyota Corollas. The cars had a
> bug whereby the electric power steering system would suddenly and
> unexpectedly pull on full right or left lock at freeway speeds which
> resulted in a number of people being killed in the resulting accidents
> and Toyota recalling millions of vehicles.
>
> Hydraulic power steering would have a hard time ever doing that.

Ah Darren, always the bullshit artist. Can't help yourself, can you?

Here's a reality check for you.

https://www.torquenews.com/106/nhtsa-closes-investigation-toyota-corolla-steering-systems

No mention of people killed or injured in the case of this fault Darren.
Please explain.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 4/1/22 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 10:09 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 9:59 am, Daryl wrote:
>
>>>   The first cars I drove were: VP
>>>> Valiant, EH Holden and FC Holden (my first car). All had horrible
>>>> steering (unassisted). All were vague and just generally unpleasant
>>>> to drive. I assume they were recirculating ball type steering. Then
>>>> I bought a Ford Escort. It was a revelation. It actually went where
>>>> I pointed it! Rack and pinion (unassisted) steering will do that for
>>>> you. That and radial tyres. Unlike the Holdens and Valiant I drove,
>>>> sometimes I would jump in the Escort just to enjoy the trill of
>>>> driving. It didn't matter where. It was just fun.
>>>
>>> The Escort was a light car so direct steering works fine, not so good
>>> on a heavier car.
>>
>> **Well, none of my cars have had power steer, except for my VP
>> Commodore. ALL the Holdens I've owned had shit steering.
>
> As I said, power steering has nothing to do with a vehicle's ability to
> steer, and your VP had rack and pinion steering which goes to show that
> the presence of a rack and pinion steering system doesn't automatically
> turn a vehicle into a racing car.
>
>>> Old Rolls Royces and a few other makes had very vague steering from
>>> new, apparently it was deliberate, they called it the sneeze factor,
>>> a driver could sneeze and even if in sneezing they yanked the
>>> steering wheel not much would happen.
>
> Sounds like any Ford from the 1960's :)

Mates dad had several XK and XL Falcons, it would be difficult to forget
the huge number of turns lock to lock, most likely to reduce the
steering effort in a non PS car.
I used to own a V8 HK Holden which had ram type PS and it wasn't speed
sensitive, pretty vague at higher speeds.
>
>>> A long time age I had a drive of a mid 60's Jag 420 that belonged to
>>> someone who used to post here, the steering was so vague it was near
>>> impossible to keep it in a straight line, the owner thought that it
>>> was normal.
>
> And it had a rack & pinion, huh? :)

Don't think so, it was a mid 60's 420G and they had recirculating ball
steering box.
Remember Ron McGrice? It was his Jag, nice car but the steering was woeful.
>
> This is precisely the point. It's not much good fitting a sharp steering
> mechanism to a car that has a suspension so soft and floaty will it will
> fall over as soon as you yank on the wheel.
>
>> **Doesn't surprise me. A mate of mine owned an XJS and a Merc 450SEL
>> back in the early 1980s. I took them both for a drive. The XJS had
>> very light steering, which completely divorced me from the road. The
>> (V12) engine was a delight, but the steering was horrible.
>
> That's because a lot of Jaguars never had speed sensitive power steering.
>
>> By comparison, the biggest compliment I could pay to the Merc was that
>> it felt as nimble as my Escort! It had excellent 'feel' and it enabled
>> me to point the Merc exactly where I wanted it to go. The owned was
>> offended, but I reckon the Merc was an astonishing thing. Big, heavy,
>> but a really nice drive. I am not surprised that it was the vehicle of
>> choice for third world dictators.
>
> To each their own, but what you've done here is highlighted the massive
> difference in car *setup*. Not component differences.
>

True, it comes down to how the designers think that their customers
would want their steering to feel.

--
Daryl

On 4/1/22 12:16 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 12:06 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 4/1/22 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was
>>>>>> mentioned that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive
>>>>>> steering than in days gone by, when steering was more slack and
>>>>>> had more lag, because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does
>>>>>> this mean that modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a
>>>>>> mechanical connection to the steering components? (and yes, I know
>>>>>> I could google it, but this gives us something to talk about)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>>>> don't take it too
>>>>
>>>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may
>>>> be possible.
>>>
>>> **OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
>>> steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
>>> hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road
>>> feel inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my
>>> recollection.
>>>
>> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
>> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick
>> tyres and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
>> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they
>> don't need it.
>>
>
> **I was referring to my recollection of something I THINK I read back in
> the 1970s. I drove an old Porsche back in the 1980s. Although it needed
> power steering at parking speeds, it lacked it. I note that the Phase
> III GTHO was available with optional PS. I betcha it was never fitted to
> any GTHO that went racing.

I've driven a 1979 911 and I don't remember thinking that the steering
was heavy at parking speeds but I do remember the excellent amount of feel.
1970's PS was primitive to what we have now so not surprised they
wouldn't have it on a race car of that era, I've seen lots of GT Falcons
and driven a few and never seen one with PS, it may have been an option
but it was very rare.
I've also only ever seen one genuine XYGT auto, auto wasn't available in
the HO.

--
Daryl

On 4/01/2022 2:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 4/1/22 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> And it had a rack & pinion, huh? :)
>
> Don't think so, it was a mid 60's 420G and they had recirculating ball
> steering box.

Sorry, I was thinking about the later series which had racks.

> Remember Ron McGrice? It was his Jag, nice car but the steering was woeful.

I'd struggle to use the words "Jaguar" and "nice car" in the same
sentence :)

>> To each their own, but what you've done here is highlighted the
>> massive difference in car *setup*. Not component differences.
>>
>
> True, it comes down to how the designers think that their customers
> would want their steering to feel.

It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties of
both assisted and manual steering systems.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 4/01/2022 3:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 2:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> And it had a rack & pinion, huh? :)
>>
>> Don't think so, it was a mid 60's 420G and they had recirculating ball
>> steering box.
>
> Sorry, I was thinking about the later series which had racks.
>
>> Remember Ron McGrice? It was his Jag, nice car but the steering was
>> woeful.
>
> I'd struggle to use the words "Jaguar" and "nice car" in the same
> sentence :)
>
>>> To each their own, but what you've done here is highlighted the
>>> massive difference in car *setup*. Not component differences.
>>>
>>
>> True, it comes down to how the designers think that their customers
>> would want their steering to feel.
>
> It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
> required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
> related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties of
> both assisted and manual steering systems.

**No, Trevor is not confusing the two. The two cars I cited (the Jag and
the Merc) were very different. The Jag managed to completely isolate the
driver from any road feel, whereas the Merc managed to convey a
surprisingly good road feel (almost like my Escort), despite a
relatively light steering effort (though not as light as the Jag).

On 4/1/22 12:41 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may
>>> be possible.
>
> More amusing cluelessness from the "teacher" who failed carburetor and
> brake system 101. Do yourself a favour and take whatever this moron
> claims with a grain of salt Trevor, as he has absolutely *no idea* what
> he's talking about :)

Ah Darren, I see I am still getting under your skin. Please note, I said
*i* couldn't see the issue happening, all I did was allow for the
possibility.
>
>> **OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
>> steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
>> hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road
>> feel inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my recollection.
> And again, it's a myth and for two reasons.
>
> Firstly, power steering in and of itself does not remove "road feel", as
> you yourself discovered in driving the big Benz and comparing it to the
> Jaguar.

Power steering is an *assist system* and, as such cannot remove road
feel. In fact all steering systems are specifically designed to provide
*feedback* to the steering wheel so the driver knows what is going on at
the tyre tread contact point. That is regardless of whether they are
fitted with PS or not. The PS system, in providing assistance, has
natural feedback damping but definitely not removal of feedback.
>
> Secondly, depending on what "racing cars" you're talking about, there
> are a number of reasons why power steering systems aren't common. In the
> first instance most "racing cars" are light enough to not need steering

Gee, pretty sure I made that point.

> assistance. Secondly, power steering systems cost horsepower to drive,
> and thirdly a power steering system is both a weight penalty and an
> introduced failure point that most probably don't need.

Power steering systems are designed to *fail safe* Darren. If they fail,
all that happens is you lose assistance. You can still operate the car.
Also, given that the PS system hydraulics are *free flow* when *not*
providing assistance turning the steering, the hydraulic load on the
pump is *minimal* unless and until you turn the steering thereby loading
up the pump. What's more, some PS systems have an automatic switch to
cut assistance during hard acceleration under heavy load. It's not hard
to implement such systems, been doing it on AC systems for decades. Even
easier to do that manually if they use an electromagnetic clutch on the
pump.

>
> Still, in having said that there have been some competition cars over
> the years that have run hydraulic power steering systems. You may recall
> seeing this car on Australian race tracks in the 1980's:
>
>> https://scontent.fmel8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/27788474_1825332554144645_7174595354834527284_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=gl1W5qZihGkAX-qM-ti&_nc_ht=scontent.fmel8-1.fna&oh=00_AT_GtAnRMEEtpqJ9OdPsRX6DXX0CIJ3DvUXq-DOXyzuoew&oe=61F83603
>>
>
> It was a successful car that ran a hydraulic power steering system
> without any problems.
>
> To move things into the modern day realm, as far as I'm aware Formula 1

Well, that's you out of the picture. Back to the 60s with your truck you go.

> cars run hydraulic power steering systems. The reason for that is
> because as light as the cars are the incredible amounts of downforce
> created by their wings would make steering them quite impossible without
> it, and I believe the reason why they use hydraulic systems specifically
> is to prevent teams from implementing illegal steering assistance
> programs that would be possible with electric steering systems.

Good to see you put Dr Google to work! ;-)
>
> Unsurprisingly, F1 cars don't ever seem to run out of steering
> assistance even with uber high rpm engines......

If ever a car was going to run out of power steering assistance, it
would have to be a rally car. All the rest really aren't stressing the
power steering all that much. F1 cars would be no exception. Plus it's
simple to run the PS hydraulic pump with an electric motor rather than
direct from the engine. The *extreme* RPM range when connected to an F1
engine might just create complications

Whilst discussing PS on F1 cars, it would be prudent to point out at
this juncture that F1 cars do *not* use a *stand alone* hydraulic system
for the power steering. The PS system used in F1 cars is a totally
different beast to any and all systems used on pretty much any other
car. In fact, F1 cars have between 8-10 hydraulic subsystems of which
power steering is but one. Others include gearshift, differential,
clutch, throttle, brakes, wastegate and more. These systems all use a
common engine driven pump. The pump is one initially used in aviation as
are the control systems. The company that makes F1 hydraulic systems is
https://www.moog.com/markets.html
It seems the company now makes specialised and dedicated F1 hydraulics
components and, get this Darren, they are *lightweight* and *compact*.
Funny that, eh? See this for more;
https://www.moog.com/markets/motorsport/motorsport-products-for-formula-1.html
So, in light of the fact that power racks have *minimal parasitic load*
when not turning, we can forget about the horsepower required to drive
that pump, especially when the PS parasitic load is but one of many
which are potentially far more parasitic. Did I mention that PS systems
only ever fully load the hydraulic pump when at *full lock*. Don't think
an F1 car would see anything near full lock during a race so loads would
be proportioned way down. I will guarantee that the rack itself will be
a lightweight precision unit as well. Remember, you can size the rack
according to the pressure supplied by the pump.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)