Hi,
In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
separate cooker radial.
From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher plugged in.
The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
Is this scenario acceptable?

Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
> separate cooker radial.
> From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher plugged in.
> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
> Is this scenario acceptable?

Yes, it's quite "correct". You *might* argue that having both a
washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
might want to check this).

Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch? If it's
one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".

--
Chris Green
·

On 04/03/2023 13:20, Chris Green wrote:
> Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
>> separate cooker radial.
>> From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
>> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher plugged in.
>> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
>> Is this scenario acceptable?
>
> Yes, it's quite "correct". You *might* argue that having both a
> washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
> simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
> exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
> might want to check this).
>
> Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch? If it's
> one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".

Thanks.
No, there is no fuse in the switch.
I can replace it with a fused switch. Or is that something you're not
allowed to do?

Grumps wrote:

> there is no fuse in the switch. I can replace it with a fused switch.
> Or is that something you're not allowed to do?

You can do it, but there's no need to, for a spur with just one single,
or one double 13A socket on it.

On 04/03/2023 13:52, Grumps wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 13:20, Chris Green wrote:
>> Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
>>> separate cooker radial.
>>>  From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
>>> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher
>>> plugged in.
>>> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
>>> Is this scenario acceptable?
>>
>> Yes, it's quite "correct".  You *might* argue that having both a
>> washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
>> simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
>> exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
>> might want to check this).
>>
>> Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch?  If it's
>> one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".
>
> Thanks.
> No, there is no fuse in the switch.
> I can replace it with a fused switch. Or is that something you're not
> allowed to do?
>

You can but it's not necessary so long as (a) there's only the one
double socket on the spur and (b) you don't have a plethora of unfused
spurs. See

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Adding_sockets#Spurs

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 13:20, Chris Green wrote:
> > Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
> >> separate cooker radial.
> >> From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
> >> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher plugged in.
> >> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
> >> Is this scenario acceptable?
> >
> > Yes, it's quite "correct". You *might* argue that having both a
> > washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
> > simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
> > exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
> > might want to check this).
> >
> > Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch? If it's
> > one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".
>
> Thanks.
> No, there is no fuse in the switch.
> I can replace it with a fused switch. Or is that something you're not
> allowed to do?
>
There's no need, it would just be "belt and braces". A twin socket on
a spur on a ring main is quite OK and as allowed by the regulations.
You can't add anything further to the spur though.

It's a bit of a grey area how Part P might apply to changing the
switch to an FCU. I *think* your allowed to change/repair existing
stuff but not dd new stuff in a kitchen. I'm sure someone else will
know more exactly.

--
Chris Green
·

On 04/03/2023 14:59, Chris Green wrote:
> Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 13:20, Chris Green wrote:
>>> Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
>>>> separate cooker radial.
>>>> From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
>>>> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher plugged in.
>>>> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
>>>> Is this scenario acceptable?
>>>
>>> Yes, it's quite "correct". You *might* argue that having both a
>>> washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
>>> simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
>>> exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
>>> might want to check this).
>>>
>>> Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch? If it's
>>> one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".
>>
>> Thanks.
>> No, there is no fuse in the switch.
>> I can replace it with a fused switch. Or is that something you're not
>> allowed to do?
>>
> There's no need, it would just be "belt and braces". A twin socket on
> a spur on a ring main is quite OK and as allowed by the regulations.
> You can't add anything further to the spur though.
>
> It's a bit of a grey area how Part P might apply to changing the
> switch to an FCU. I *think* your allowed to change/repair existing
> stuff but not dd new stuff in a kitchen. I'm sure someone else will
> know more exactly.
>

Kitchens ceased to be a special location in 2013 as part of the reforms
called for by the Select Committee. So broadly speaking only a new
circuit is notifiable.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Chris Green wrote:

> I *think* your allowed to change/repair existing
> stuff but not dd new stuff in a kitchen.

Kitchens are no longer "special locations" for Part P (unless they
contain a bath, shower, swimming pool or sauna heater)

On 04/03/2023 13:52, Grumps wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 13:20, Chris Green wrote:
>> Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
>>> separate cooker radial.
>>>  From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
>>> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher
>>> plugged in.
>>> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
>>> Is this scenario acceptable?
>>
>> Yes, it's quite "correct".  You *might* argue that having both a
>> washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
>> simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
>> exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
>> might want to check this).
>>
>> Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch?  If it's
>> one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".
>
> Thanks.
> No, there is no fuse in the switch.

> I can replace it with a fused switch. Or is that something you're not
> allowed to do?

You are allowed "to do" - but I can see no advantage in so doing.

(I would actually argue it would make it less fit for purpose).

An unfused spur can have one single or one double socket on the end of
it. The nominal load is treated as 20A. In theory the socket could
support 26A - but that is unlikely to occur as a long term load (neither
appliance is likely yo be 13A - and both have shortish duty cycles and
thermostatic controls). A 2.5mm^2 spur cable has an installed rating of
27A if clipped direct or embedded in masonry.

If you added a FCU at the spur point you would just make a nuisance fuse
failure a possibility in a situation where the overload protection is
already "designed in" by the rules governing spurs.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 04/03/2023 13:52, Grumps wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 13:20, Chris Green wrote:
>> Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
>>> separate cooker radial.
>>>  From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
>>> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher
>>> plugged in.
>>> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
>>> Is this scenario acceptable?
>>
>> Yes, it's quite "correct".  You *might* argue that having both a
>> washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
>> simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
>> exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
>> might want to check this).
>>
>> Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch?  If it's
>> one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".
>
> Thanks.
> No, there is no fuse in the switch.
> I can replace it with a fused switch. Or is that something you're not
> allowed to do?
>
I think you are allowed. But who cares? You know its safe to do so.
Safer in fact. Better than any EU bureacrats

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

Which reminds me. They now sell plug in double induction hobs with a 13A
plug. This seems a little marginal, as I'd have thought the current might be
affected by the presence of the pan and its contents.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:tu21d7$vlig$13@dont-email.me...
> On 04/03/2023 13:52, Grumps wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 13:20, Chris Green wrote:
>>> Grumps <not@here.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> In my kitchen (rewired a long time ago) there is a single ring, and a
>>>> separate cooker radial.
>>>> From the ring there is a switched spur which goes to a double socket
>>>> under the countertop. This has a washing machine and dishwasher plugged
>>>> in.
>>>> The switch (I think) looks like a 20Amp part.
>>>> Is this scenario acceptable?
>>>
>>> Yes, it's quite "correct". You *might* argue that having both a
>>> washing machine and a dishwasher whose heating elements might run
>>> simultaneously is a little marginal but I doubt if the total load
>>> exceeds 20 amps as the dishwasher probably has only a 1kW heater (you
>>> might want to check this).
>>>
>>> Is the switch one with a fuse in it or is it just a switch? If it's
>>> one with a fuse (13A) in it then the whole thing is even more "correct".
>>
>> Thanks.
>> No, there is no fuse in the switch.
>> I can replace it with a fused switch. Or is that something you're not
>> allowed to do?
>>
> I think you are allowed. But who cares? You know its safe to do so. Safer
> in fact. Better than any EU bureacrats
>
>
> --
> Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
>

Brian Gaff wrote:

> Which reminds me. They now sell plug in double induction hobs with a 13A
> plug. This seems a little marginal,

I think with many induction hobs, you program it to let it know whether
it's on a 13A/16A/20A/32A circuit and it modulates the power of the
"rings" down to suit, if more than one is on at a time?

On 06/03/2023 17:13, Andy Burns wrote:
> Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> Which reminds me. They now sell plug in double induction hobs with a 13A
>> plug. This seems a little marginal,
>
> I think with many induction hobs, you program it to let it know whether
> it's on a 13A/16A/20A/32A circuit and it modulates the power of the
> "rings" down to suit, if more than one is on at a time?

Bring back the Baby Belling. That had a grill and oven as well as two
rings. Of course you couldn't have more than two things on at once.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

> Bring back the Baby Belling.

It seems they have ...

<https://appliancist.com/cooking/ranges/baby-belling-redesigned-new-look-for-uk-favourite.html>

On 06/03/2023 17:19, Max Demian wrote:
> On 06/03/2023 17:13, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>>> Which reminds me. They now sell plug in double induction hobs with a 13A
>>> plug. This seems a little marginal,
>>
>> I think with many induction hobs, you program it to let it know
>> whether it's on a 13A/16A/20A/32A circuit and it modulates the power
>> of the "rings" down to suit, if more than one is on at a time?
>
> Bring back the Baby Belling. That had a grill and oven as well as two
> rings. Of course you couldn't have more than two things on at once.
>
I still have one, in the shed. I really should get rid of it.

On 06/03/2023 19:56, S Viemeister wrote:
> On 06/03/2023 17:19, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 06/03/2023 17:13, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>
>>>> Which reminds me. They now sell plug in double induction hobs with a
>>>> 13A
>>>> plug. This seems a little marginal,
>>>
>>> I think with many induction hobs, you program it to let it know
>>> whether it's on a 13A/16A/20A/32A circuit and it modulates the power
>>> of the "rings" down to suit, if more than one is on at a time?
>>
>> Bring back the Baby Belling. That had a grill and oven as well as two
>> rings. Of course you couldn't have more than two things on at once.
>>
> I still have one, in the shed. I really should get rid of it.

Can my mum have it? :-)

On 06/03/2023 20:12, SH wrote:
> On 06/03/2023 19:56, S Viemeister wrote:
>> On 06/03/2023 17:19, Max Demian wrote:
>>> On 06/03/2023 17:13, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Brian Gaff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Which reminds me. They now sell plug in double induction hobs with
>>>>> a 13A
>>>>> plug. This seems a little marginal,
>>>>
>>>> I think with many induction hobs, you program it to let it know
>>>> whether it's on a 13A/16A/20A/32A circuit and it modulates the power
>>>> of the "rings" down to suit, if more than one is on at a time?
>>>
>>> Bring back the Baby Belling. That had a grill and oven as well as two
>>> rings. Of course you couldn't have more than two things on at once.
>>>
>> I still have one, in the shed. I really should get rid of it.
>
> Can my mum have it? :-)

Sure, if you want to pick it up for her. The shed it's in, is on the
north coast of Scotland...

On 06/03/2023 17:31, Andy Burns wrote:
> Max Demian wrote:
>
>> Bring back the Baby Belling.
>
> It seems they have ...
>
> <https://appliancist.com/cooking/ranges/baby-belling-redesigned-new-look-for-uk-favourite.html>

I remember the pre-1972 version that had a hot plate on top with the
grill underneath at the top of the oven and a metal sheet you could
slide in to reflect the heat up. There were two off/low/medium/high
switches, one for the hotplate/grill and one for the oven. There was a
thermometer built into the oven door. I think they were designed for a
15A socket but people plugged them into 13A.

--
Max Demian

On 04/03/2023 15:42, Andy Burns wrote:
> Chris Green wrote:
>
>> I *think*  your allowed to change/repair existing
>> stuff but not dd new stuff in a kitchen.
>
> Kitchens are no longer "special locations" for Part P (unless they
> contain a bath, shower, swimming pool or sauna heater)

What defines a room as a kitchen?

eg in offices a separate room with a kettle, microwave and a toaster is
often called a kitchen but it has no cooker/oven so IMHO it's not a kitchen.

On 07/03/2023 21:09, ARW wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 15:42, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Chris Green wrote:
>>
>>> I *think*  your allowed to change/repair existing
>>> stuff but not dd new stuff in a kitchen.
>>
>> Kitchens are no longer "special locations" for Part P (unless they
>> contain a bath, shower, swimming pool or sauna heater)
>
>
> What defines a room as a kitchen?
>
> eg in offices a separate room with a kettle, microwave and a toaster is
> often called a kitchen but it has no cooker/oven so IMHO it's not a
> kitchen.
>

Spot on for the building regs where '“kitchen” means a room or part of a
room which contains a sink and food preparation facilities'.

But I've no idea just what distinguishes a sink from a washbasin. Or
indeed from a bidet fitted on a plinth.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 07/03/2023 21:09, ARW wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 15:42, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Chris Green wrote:
>>
>>> I *think*  your allowed to change/repair existing
>>> stuff but not dd new stuff in a kitchen.
>>
>> Kitchens are no longer "special locations" for Part P (unless they
>> contain a bath, shower, swimming pool or sauna heater)
>
>
> What defines a room as a kitchen?
>
> eg in offices a separate room with a kettle, microwave and a toaster is
> often called a kitchen but it has no cooker/oven so IMHO it's not a
> kitchen.
>
>

'Food preparation area' ??.

Hence covers bedsits, or indeed most modern
flats where there is no definable kitchen as such.

On 08/03/2023 11:59, Andrew wrote:
> On 07/03/2023 21:09, ARW wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 15:42, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Chris Green wrote:
>>>
>>>> I *think*  your allowed to change/repair existing
>>>> stuff but not dd new stuff in a kitchen.
>>>
>>> Kitchens are no longer "special locations" for Part P (unless they
>>> contain a bath, shower, swimming pool or sauna heater)
>>
>>
>> What defines a room as a kitchen?
>>
>> eg in offices a separate room with a kettle, microwave and a toaster
>> is often called a kitchen but it has no cooker/oven so IMHO it's not a
>> kitchen.
>>
>>
>
> 'Food preparation area' ??.
>
> Hence covers bedsits, or indeed most modern
> flats where there is no definable kitchen as such.

See the definition I posted which means for Part P the "kitchen" would
only have been the relevant /part/ of a studio flat, kitchen-diner etc

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid