For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
energy sources.

1st thoiught was wind. But the regulations seem designed to not be
acceptable for a large swathe of UK properties.

Form - Legal & Planning permission in England @
https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/main/wind-turbines/legal-planning-permission-for-wind-turbines/

* For building-mounted turbines, the following criteria must be met:

The property must be detached
**** So, that is me out of it. A quick google makes this 25% of properties

* For pole-mounted turbines:

The top of the turbine must be no more than 11.1m above the ground
**** Fine
The turbine must be at least 1.1 times of its own height away from
the edge of the landowner’s land

**** I don't need a tape measure to work out I can't do that as it would
need to be higher than the house.

Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
Garage roof may be a solutuon.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

YTCYTC#1 wrote:

> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative energy
> sources.
>
> 1st thoiught was wind.

Remember when B&Q sold puny wind-generators to mount on your house, do you ever
see any of them still around?

> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well. Garage
> roof may be a solutuon.

PV mounting "buckets" allow sandbags or paving slabs for ballast, e.g

<https://www.theoffgridengineer.co.uk/solar-c130/solar-panel-mounting-c138/renusol-console-solar-panel-mounting-bucket-p238>

On 01/04/2022 08:53, YTC#1 wrote:

> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
> energy sources.

Keep in mind...

There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
didn't shine and the wind didn't blow. Renewables - which include the
polluting Biomass - provided less that 10% of total demand for those
weeks. Recent evenings have seen the same. You'll need to factor this in.

Averaged over a year, the output from a solar panel is about 12% of
nominal capacity, and from a wind turbine it's less than 30%.

--
Spike

On Friday, 1 April 2022 at 09:53:04 UTC+1, YTC#1 wrote:
> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
> energy sources.
<snip>

I've recently-ish placed an order for some solar panels and a battery. Installation
next month. Not enough to go 'off grid', but enough to dent the bills and frankly
I think it's the right thing to do for all sorts of non-financial reasons. I've gone
for ground mounting in 'buckets' since the wind is too much here on occasion
to trust the roof with them...

Using the 'sales' numbers it looks like it should pay for itself in about ten years.
If the cost of energy stays where it is maybe a little less (since calculations
used pre-April figures). If I switch to a tariff where I can charge the battery off
peak in the winter at a low cost and optimise my use when the sun shines with
things such as water heating etc. then maybe a bit better again; but I need to
play with it to understand it really.

It was difficult to get attention from a lot of companies, I guess they're snowed
under with enquiries/orders/work.

I'm not so negative on wind, but I think it's niche. I'm on top of a hill with a *lot*
of wind so it's on the list (and I've got the space for one). The only question is
what to do. A decent turbine is expensive to install (30-50k+) and needs
permission from the grid for interconnection since its peak production is far more
than I could use. There are smaller ones around 1-3kW or so that look interesting
and maybe I'll fuck around with something like that in a standalone configuration
since I think the solar will max out what I can connect to the grid without special
permissions.

On 4/1/2022 1:53 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
> energy sources.
>

YES! Do it.

> 1st thought was wind. But the regulations seem designed to not be
> acceptable for a large swathe of UK properties.
>
No idea if these are acceptable or affordable:
https://vortexbladeless.com/
(hmm. Bottom line says "Not for sale yet." oh well.)
>
>
> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>
Not enough wind here, but plenty of sun. I had 8 cells put on my roof a
few years ago. Enough to zero out my electrical usage for the year. It's
nice getting a $0.00 bill. And the installation is about paid for.

But it's illegal here to go off grid. No matter how efficient you are,
you have to stay connected and pay a fee to the private power company.
aaargh.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Friday, 1 April 2022 at 11:36:00 UTC+1, Turby wrote:

> But it's illegal here to go off grid. No matter how efficient you are,
> you have to stay connected and pay a fee to the private power company.
> aaargh.

Good lord. That's really shocking and totally wrong.

I'd like to go 'off grid' and I guess I've got the land etc. to do it.

Maybe it's something to review in a year or two after I've had some experience.
Maybe.

My grandfather's farm was off-grid until the 1980s. They had their own diesel
generator that just quietly thudded away (very low idle RPM) and had their own
well providing water. Still use the well, but are now on-grid for electricity.

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:54:38 AM UTC-4, Spike wrote:

> There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
> didn't shine and the wind didn't blow.

Common misconception. It isn't the case that solar produces zero energy when the sun doesn't shine. It does in fact produce energy in daylight hours, albeit at a reduced rate.

I would get solar immediately, but my roof is too choppy with architectural "features" (that I don't like). So I subscribed to a Solar Farm, a few miles away who make a load of electricity and feed it into the grid. My utility company then credit me for my "share". The rate is discounted, but of course I don't own the capital equipment so the financial model doesn't lead to a point in the future where the power is "free" having accounted for set up costs. On the other hand, there was no buy-in required, just a month-to-month commitment to pay for my portion of power.

On 01/04/2022 13:01, Ben Blaney wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:54:38 AM UTC-4, Spike wrote:
>
>> There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
>> didn't shine and the wind didn't blow.
>
> Common misconception. It isn't the case that solar produces zero energy when the sun doesn't shine. It does in fact produce energy in daylight hours, albeit at a reduced rate.
>
> I would get solar immediately, but my roof is too choppy with architectural "features" (that I don't like). So I subscribed to a Solar Farm, a few miles away who make a load of electricity and feed it into the grid. My utility company then credit me for my "share". The rate is discounted, but of course I don't own the capital equipment so the financial model doesn't lead to a point in the future where the power is "free" having accounted for set up costs. On the other hand, there was no buy-in required, just a month-to-month commitment to pay for my portion of power.
>
That is an interesting option - and one I was not aware of.
I might even get together getting around to maybe looking into that?

Twenty years ago, I got 50 weeks a year electricity from wind power for
my boat. It was excellent - but a bit whirry on breezy nights!

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 01/04/2022 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
> YTCYTC#1 wrote:
>
>> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
>> energy sources.
>>
>> 1st thoiught was wind.
>
> Remember when B&Q sold puny wind-generators to mount on your house, do
> you ever see any of them still around?

No, and err, presumably no.
>
>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very
>> well. Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>
> PV mounting "buckets" allow sandbags or paving slabs for ballast, e.g
>
> <https://www.theoffgridengineer.co.uk/solar-c130/solar-panel-mounting-c138/renusol-console-solar-panel-mounting-bucket-p238>
>
>
Ta ... I think?

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/04/2022 13:01, Ben Blaney wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:54:38 AM UTC-4, Spike wrote:
>
>> There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
>> didn't shine and the wind didn't blow.
>
> Common misconception. It isn't the case that solar produces zero energy when the sun doesn't shine. It does in fact produce energy in daylight hours, albeit at a reduced rate.
>
> I would get solar immediately, but my roof is too choppy with architectural "features" (that I don't like). So I subscribed to a Solar Farm, a few miles away who make a load of electricity and feed it into the grid. My utility company then credit me for my "share". The rate is discounted, but of course I don't own the capital equipment so the financial model doesn't lead to a point in the future where the power is "free" having accounted for set up costs. On the other hand, there was no buy-in required, just a month-to-month commitment to pay for my portion of power.
>

I doubt there is anything similar in the UK.

Community PowerGrid..... hmmm, I wonder if that could be pitched :-)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/04/2022 11:05, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Friday, 1 April 2022 at 09:53:04 UTC+1, YTC#1 wrote:
>> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
>> energy sources.
> <snip>
>
> I've recently-ish placed an order for some solar panels and a battery. Installation
> next month. Not enough to go 'off grid', but enough to dent the bills and frankly
> I think it's the right thing to do for all sorts of non-financial reasons. I've gone
> for ground mounting in 'buckets' since the wind is too much here on occasion
> to trust the roof with them...

I've been mulling it for a while, but only just loaded and app on the
iPad which made me realise that between the back roof and the garage
roof I can track the sun most of the day.

I'd started looking at air/ground source but just don't see that as a
viable option for this house (yet).

>
> Using the 'sales' numbers it looks like it should pay for itself in about ten years.
> If the cost of energy stays where it is maybe a little less (since calculations

It will be an interesting thing to watch, fuel process rarely go down
(much) over time. I suspect high prices will be here to stay.

And you can bet the standing charges will stay high.

> used pre-April figures). If I switch to a tariff where I can charge the battery off
> peak in the winter at a low cost and optimise my use when the sun shines with
> things such as water heating etc. then maybe a bit better again; but I need to
> play with it to understand it really.
>
> It was difficult to get attention from a lot of companies, I guess they're snowed
> under with enquiries/orders/work.

Yeah, I may have to wait for my chosen company to get back to me :-)

>
> I'm not so negative on wind, but I think it's niche. I'm on top of a hill with a *lot*
> of wind so it's on the list (and I've got the space for one). The only question is
> what to do. A decent turbine is expensive to install (30-50k+) and needs
> permission from the grid for interconnection since its peak production is far more
> than I could use. There are smaller ones around 1-3kW or so that look interesting
> and maybe I'll fuck around with something like that in a standalone configuration
> since I think the solar will max out what I can connect to the grid without special
> permissions.

I was only eyeing uop the smaller ones, not sure the neighbours would
have appreciated a 50k one :-)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

YTCYTC#1 wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Remember when B&Q sold puny wind-generators to mount on your house, do you
>> ever see any of them still around?
>
> No, and err, presumably no.

<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/feb/06/windpower>

>>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>>
>> PV mounting "buckets" allow sandbags or paving slabs for ballast, e.g
>>
>> <https://www.theoffgridengineer.co.uk/solar-c130/solar-panel-mounting-c138/renusol-console-solar-panel-mounting-bucket-p238>
>
> Ta ... I think?

I'd be interested to know what type of 'buckets' Stephen Packer used, if
different from the above ...

On 01/04/2022 11:35, Turby wrote:
> On 4/1/2022 1:53 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
>> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
>> energy sources.
>>
>
> YES! Do it.
>
>> 1st thought was wind. But the regulations seem designed to not be
>> acceptable for a large swathe of UK properties.
>>
> No idea if these are acceptable or affordable:
> https://vortexbladeless.com/
> (hmm. Bottom line says "Not for sale yet." oh well.)
>>
>>
>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very
>> well. Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>>
> Not enough wind here, but plenty of sun. I had 8 cells put on my roof a
> few years ago. Enough to zero out my electrical usage for the year. It's
> nice getting a $0.00 bill. And the installation is about paid for.
>
> But it's illegal here to go off grid. No matter how efficient you are,
> you have to stay connected and pay a fee to the private power company.
> aaargh.
>

No intention of going off grid, just eying up options for "doing my bit"
(and maybe cutting the monthly bill :-) )

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/04/2022 12:15, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Friday, 1 April 2022 at 11:36:00 UTC+1, Turby wrote:
>
>> But it's illegal here to go off grid. No matter how efficient you are,
>> you have to stay connected and pay a fee to the private power company.
>> aaargh.
>
> Good lord. That's really shocking and totally wrong.

Land of the free[1]
>
> I'd like to go 'off grid' and I guess I've got the land etc. to do it.
>
> Maybe it's something to review in a year or two after I've had some experience.
> Maybe.
>
> My grandfather's farm was off-grid until the 1980s. They had their own diesel
Not an acceptable option in the 21st century :-)

> generator that just quietly thudded away (very low idle RPM) and had their own
> well providing water. Still use the well, but are now on-grid for electricity.

[1] Well, if you are a business at least.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:

> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
> Garage roof may be a solutuon.

If you are going full on, as many panels as you can get. 400 watt
versions are available now, go for them if there is a choice.
Battery charging too. Its expensive to fit, but will pay for itself a lot
sooner than it would have 6 months ago. It was predicted the typical pay
back time was 7 years, that has come down to 4 years, maybe less, as
panels are cheaper,and electricity is more expensive.
And, insulation. Get loads in, and block the draughts. 80% of energy in
the house is for heating, reduce that percentage and you will be saving
money.
There are loads of sites out there explaining all the pros/cons of both
solar and battery back up, and the related insulation savings, I've not
found a single one that goes through it all, some are just written for
idiots, but there are some good written sites showing the best ways to
save.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
wrote:

>Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>Garage roof may be a solutuon.

solar panels work in any orientation, just at a much lower power.
Apparently, even north-facing in the UK isn't quite so bad as it might
seem because the UK has a lot of cloudy days where south facing panels
lose out, but the clouds illuminate north facing panels a little.

I wouldn't expect megawatts, mind.

--

-Pip

On 01/04/2022 16:51, Pipl wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
> wrote:

>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.

> solar panels work in any orientation, just at a much lower power.
> Apparently, even north-facing in the UK isn't quite so bad as it might
> seem because the UK has a lot of cloudy days where south facing panels
> lose out, but the clouds illuminate north facing panels a little.

> I wouldn't expect megawatts, mind.

This is a very thoughtful article:

<https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/367-the-reality-of-relying-upon-renewable-power>

TL:DR:

A professor has been running a broadband remote-community broadband
relay for the last seven years from renewables. He explains the
difficulties of keeping the system functioning with a non-availability
as low as ten times that of the National Grid.

--
Spike

On Friday, 1 April 2022 at 16:19:58 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:
>
> > Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
> > Garage roof may be a solutuon.
> If you are going full on, as many panels as you can get. 400 watt
> versions are available now, go for them if there is a choice.
> Battery charging too. Its expensive to fit, but will pay for itself a lot
> sooner than it would have 6 months ago. It was predicted the typical pay
> back time was 7 years, that has come down to 4 years, maybe less, as
> panels are cheaper,and electricity is more expensive.
> And, insulation. Get loads in, and block the draughts. 80% of energy in
> the house is for heating, reduce that percentage and you will be saving
> money.
> There are loads of sites out there explaining all the pros/cons of both
> solar and battery back up, and the related insulation savings, I've not
> found a single one that goes through it all, some are just written for
> idiots, but there are some good written sites showing the best ways to
> save.

I've gone for a battery solution but I'm not convinced it's that profitable without
being able to fuck around charging over the 'off peak' period and using during
the peak period and that depends on appropriate tariffs. I suspect the panels
themselves will be fine in the summer and the battery will *hopefully* run a fair
amount of the house in the evening but in the winter I suspect that the battery
won't get a lot of charge on days that the oven/dishwasher/
washing machine/tumble drier get used. I couldn't really make the
numbers work for a large battery (12kWh vs 6kWh) but I think I need 'experience'
to come to a conclusion on whether I expand it. Certainly don't expect pay
back in 4 years for the battery.

On 4/1/2022 8:19 AM, Alan wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>
> If you are going full on, as many panels as you can get. 400 watt
> versions are available now, go for them if there is a choice.
> Battery charging too. Its expensive to fit, but will pay for itself a lot
> sooner than it would have 6 months ago. It was predicted the typical pay
> back time was 7 years, that has come down to 4 years, maybe less, as
> panels are cheaper,and electricity is more expensive.

When I first looked, the payback time was >14 years. When I finally
installed them, it was 9 years.

> And, insulation. Get loads in, and block the draughts. 80% of energy in
> the house is for heating, reduce that percentage and you will be saving
> money.

My home's previous owner was an environmental physicist. The wife was an
architect. When they remodeled the house, they put in a basement and a
loft and added a lot more insulation. In the summer, you open windows
top and bottom and the heat just goes away. The office has a Trombe
wall, so never needs heating or cooling. Passive systems work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 17:36:47 +0000, Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid>
wrote:

>On 01/04/2022 16:51, Pipl wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>
>> solar panels work in any orientation, just at a much lower power.
>> Apparently, even north-facing in the UK isn't quite so bad as it might
>> seem because the UK has a lot of cloudy days where south facing panels
>> lose out, but the clouds illuminate north facing panels a little.
>
>> I wouldn't expect megawatts, mind.
>
>This is a very thoughtful article:
>
><https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/367-the-reality-of-relying-upon-renewable-power>
>
>TL:DR:
>
>A professor has been running a broadband remote-community broadband
>relay for the last seven years from renewables. He explains the
>difficulties of keeping the system functioning with a non-availability
>as low as ten times that of the National Grid.

Yes, very interesting to see first-hand real-world experience.

--

-Pip

On 01/04/2022 15:49, Andy Burns wrote:
> YTCYTC#1 wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Remember when B&Q sold puny wind-generators to mount on your house,
>>> do you ever see any of them still around?
>>
>> No, and err, presumably no.
>
> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/feb/06/windpower>

And £1900 was a hefty chunk o wedge in 2006.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/04/2022 16:19, Alan wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>
> If you are going full on, as many panels as you can get. 400 watt
> versions are available now, go for them if there is a choice.
> Battery charging too. Its expensive to fit, but will pay for itself a lot
> sooner than it would have 6 months ago. It was predicted the typical pay
> back time was 7 years, that has come down to 4 years, maybe less, as
> panels are cheaper,and electricity is more expensive.
> And, insulation. Get loads in, and block the draughts. 80% of energy in
> the house is for heating, reduce that percentage and you will be saving
> money.

Yeah, I know. And I am guilty of not having cavity wall insulation, and
know the loft insulation needs redoing as no longer up to spec.

> There are loads of sites out there explaining all the pros/cons of both
> solar and battery back up, and the related insulation savings, I've not
> found a single one that goes through it all, some are just written for
> idiots,

Oh, good. Can you point me at them please? :-)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/04/2022 18:36, Spike wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 16:51, Pipl wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:53:02 +0100, YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Right, off to look at Solar then, but house is not orientated very well.
>>> Garage roof may be a solutuon.
>
>> solar panels work in any orientation, just at a much lower power.
>> Apparently, even north-facing in the UK isn't quite so bad as it might
>> seem because the UK has a lot of cloudy days where south facing panels
>> lose out, but the clouds illuminate north facing panels a little.
>
>> I wouldn't expect megawatts, mind.
>
> This is a very thoughtful article:
>
> <https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/367-the-reality-of-relying-upon-renewable-power>
>
> TL:DR:
>
> A professor has been running a broadband remote-community broadband
> relay for the last seven years from renewables. He explains the
> difficulties of keeping the system functioning with a non-availability
> as low as ten times that of the National Grid.
>

Erm,
a) I've met him.
b) I've worked on the kit :-)
https://ytc1-cloud.dyndns.org:643/index.php/s/r692MH6dnckExsX
https://ytc1-cloud.dyndns.org:643/index.php/s/JHLQYqrYLZaWNZT

Lugging a spare windmill up the hills in the Boarders is knackering

Cameras have now been fitted so they can see in advance what the issues
are before going up the hills.

The broadband system works bloody well out in the sticks
--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/04/2022 10:07, Andy Burns wrote:
> YTCYTC#1 wrote:
>
>> For some strange reason (not), my thoughts have turned to alternative
>> energy sources.
>>
>> 1st thoiught was wind.
>
> Remember when B&Q sold puny wind-generators to mount on your house, do
> you ever see any of them still around?

Puny is the word. There's a reason that the latest generation
wind-turbines are taller than the Eiffel Tower.

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 01/04/2022 15:39, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>
> On 01/04/2022 13:01, Ben Blaney wrote:
>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:54:38 AM UTC-4, Spike wrote:
>>
>>> There were at least two one-week periods this winter where the sun
>>> didn't shine and the wind didn't blow.
>>
>> Common misconception.  It isn't the case that solar produces zero
>> energy when the sun doesn't shine.  It does in fact produce energy in
>> daylight hours, albeit at a reduced rate.
>>
>> I would get solar immediately, but my roof is too choppy with
>> architectural "features" (that I don't like).  So I subscribed to a
>> Solar Farm, a few miles away who make a load of electricity and feed
>> it into the grid.  My utility company then credit me for my "share".
>> The rate is discounted, but of course I don't own the capital
>> equipment so the financial model doesn't lead to a point in the future
>> where the power is "free" having accounted for set up costs.  On the
>> other hand, there was no buy-in required, just a month-to-month
>> commitment to pay for my portion of power.
>
> I doubt there is anything similar in the UK.
>
> Community PowerGrid..... hmmm, I wonder if that could be pitched :-)

What I find stupid is sticking solar panels all over land that could be
used for other purposes when there's lots of roofs that could be pressed
into service. I think there must be a financial model that makes sense
for everyone - how about a nationalised solar power generator that
provides free installation, allows you to take power for your personal
use for free (with some regulation and a maximum battery capability) and
all the rest of the power goes into the national grid. Would need some
more electric mountains for power storage though.