<https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>

Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.

Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:

(1) if it poorly insulated
(2) if the radiators are under sized

This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.

The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
gas for heating.

Does this seem a reasonable claim?

It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.

This is, of course, air source.

I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
ground source.

Cheers

Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

David wrote:

> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
> gas for heating.
>
> Does this seem a reasonable claim?

historically gas price per kWh has been about 1/3 the electricity price,
so on cold days, it's possible gas would be cheaper, will "they" try to
decouple electricity prices from gas prices? Will "they" bung fossil
taxes onto gas to make it unattractive? Who knows ...

If you search for "ASHP CoP curve" plus various manufacturer names,
you'll get the general idea. As well as the outdoor temperature it also
depends whether the output is being used for UFH (lower temps) or DHW or
radiators (higher temps)

But you need to look at seasonal CoP which sort of averages it out over
a year.

> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>
> This is, of course, air source.
>
> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
> ground source.

You need quite a substantial area to install the slinky type ground
loops, so failing that (as I suspect modern density of housing would)
you'd be needing a vertical borehole for GSHP.

On 12/03/2023 15:59, David wrote:
> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>
> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>
> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>
> (1) if it poorly insulated
> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>
> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.

Greenies like to claim that they are really easy to fit and (almost) can
just be swapped for a combi boiler. When people find out this isn't
true, the whole project will be thrown into chaos.

For air source the outside unit is very large: much bigger than the air
con/fridge units on the side of shops. And noisy, so you can't put it
near your neighbours which might mean it'll be in the middle of your garden.

The inside unit is larger too, and you will need a cupboard to
accommodate a large water cylinder, perhaps with a cold header tank.
People are used to combis that you just hang on the wall somewhere.

Replacing the radiators with larger ones could be disruptive, even more
so for underfloor heating.

Insulation will have to be improved. Most people already have double
glazing, loft insulation and cavity wall insulation, so it's not clear
what you can do. Most properties aren't suitable for external cladding,
so you would have to put extra insulation inside the walls and under the
floor. This would mean everyone moving out and living in a hotel for two
or three weeks and putting their furniture in storage. When they move
back in they will find that nothing fits as all the rooms are smaller.

> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
> gas for heating.
>
> Does this seem a reasonable claim?

Yes, as there isn't much heat in the air outside to extract.

> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>
> This is, of course, air source.

Ground source will involve digging up the garden (if you have one) to
put all the pipes. What if they leak or an overenthusiastic gardener
does some "double digging" and hits one?

> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
> ground source.

Have they upgraded regulations for new builds to make them suitable for
heat pumps? If they have I expect developers will lobby for them to be
watered down.

Unless the houses are *very* well insulated, heat pumps are also
inherently inefficient as they have to be on all the time. Unlike gas
you can't turn them off when you are at work or go out for the day, or
at night when you are under the duvet.

I can see they are a good idea (or will be once we can find a low carbon
way to generate electricity), but people are reluctant to think through
the practicalities, and prefer to enthuse or glue themselves to roads.

--
Max Demian

On 12/03/2023 16:18, Andy Burns wrote:
> David wrote:
>
>> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
>> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
>> gas for heating.
>>
>> Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>
> historically gas price per kWh has been about 1/3 the electricity price,
> so on cold days, it's possible gas would be cheaper, will "they" try to
> decouple electricity prices from gas prices?  Will "they" bung fossil
> taxes onto gas to make it unattractive?  Who knows ...

If they do increase the price of gas everyone will freeze to death and
they will start subsidising energy as they are at the moment.

I think all these subsidies set a dangerous precedent; previously people
have made do and economised; now they expect the Government to pick up
the tab. The same with food banks.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

> The inside unit is larger too

Though, there isn't necessarily an indoor unit.

On 12 Mar 2023 at 16:50:35 GMT, "Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> I can see they are a good idea (or will be once we can find a low carbon
> way to generate electricity), but people are reluctant to think through
> the practicalities, and prefer to enthuse or glue themselves to roads.

We already have one: nuclear.

--
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:50:35 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

> On 12/03/2023 15:59, David wrote:
>> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-
pumps-
>> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>>
>> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>>
>> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>>
>> (1) if it poorly insulated (2) if the radiators are under sized
>>
>> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>
> Greenies like to claim that they are really easy to fit and (almost) can
> just be swapped for a combi boiler. When people find out this isn't
> true, the whole project will be thrown into chaos.
>
> For air source the outside unit is very large: much bigger than the air
> con/fridge units on the side of shops. And noisy, so you can't put it
> near your neighbours which might mean it'll be in the middle of your
> garden.
>
> The inside unit is larger too, and you will need a cupboard to
> accommodate a large water cylinder, perhaps with a cold header tank.
> People are used to combis that you just hang on the wall somewhere.
>
> Replacing the radiators with larger ones could be disruptive, even more
> so for underfloor heating.
>
> Insulation will have to be improved. Most people already have double
> glazing, loft insulation and cavity wall insulation, so it's not clear
> what you can do. Most properties aren't suitable for external cladding,
> so you would have to put extra insulation inside the walls and under the
> floor. This would mean everyone moving out and living in a hotel for two
> or three weeks and putting their furniture in storage. When they move
> back in they will find that nothing fits as all the rooms are smaller.
>
>> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is
>> less than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper
>> to use gas for heating.
>>
>> Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>
> Yes, as there isn't much heat in the air outside to extract.
>
>> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
>> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>>
>> This is, of course, air source.
>
> Ground source will involve digging up the garden (if you have one) to
> put all the pipes. What if they leak or an overenthusiastic gardener
> does some "double digging" and hits one?
>
>> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to
>> install ground source.
>
> Have they upgraded regulations for new builds to make them suitable for
> heat pumps? If they have I expect developers will lobby for them to be
> watered down.
>
> Unless the houses are *very* well insulated, heat pumps are also
> inherently inefficient as they have to be on all the time. Unlike gas
> you can't turn them off when you are at work or go out for the day, or
> at night when you are under the duvet.
>
> I can see they are a good idea (or will be once we can find a low carbon
> way to generate electricity), but people are reluctant to think through
> the practicalities, and prefer to enthuse or glue themselves to roads.

I live in West Cumbria in a three bedroomed house that is very well
insulated. The radiators warm up quickly from a cold start...depending on
outside temperature. The fan unit outside is fairly quiet ~50DbA and
cannot be heard in the house. I am not using the immersion heaters, only
the heat pump for a sustained water temperature of 50C.

David <wibble@btinternet.com> posted
><https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
>leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>
>Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>
>Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>
>(1) if it poorly insulated
>(2) if the radiators are under sized
>
>This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.

It might be NSS to you, but if you're Mrs Miggins of Mafeking St, Melton
Mowbray, with no knowledge of physics or engineering, you just want a
central heating system that keeps your home warm in cold weather. And if
you spend tens of thousands on something you were told would do that,
and it doesn't, then you've been diddled.

>The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
>than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
>gas for heating.
>
>Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>
>It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
>temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>
>This is, of course, air source.
>
>I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
>ground source.
>

They might have the scope but it is still very expensive.

--
Algernon

On 12/03/2023 16:54, Max Demian wrote:
> If they do increase the price of gas everyone will freeze to death and

No they wont.
I dont consider myself as old, but some people will (born 1964). We
didnt have central heating until the mid-70's, in fact few people did,
and, we didnt freeze to death. We had a coal fire, and an immersion
heater.That was it for the heat, apart from the oven and hob.
Ice was on the inside of the single glazed windows in the morning. The
vast majority of houses nowadays have far better insulation than in the
70's, ice inside is unheard of now.
People will just cut back a little, and only use the minimum of gas to
keep one room warm, then, go to bed with more blankets.
How do you think poeple in Ukraine are coping? We dont hear any stories
of people freezing to death.
--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

Smolley <s@home.net> posted
>I live in West Cumbria in a three bedroomed house that is very well
>insulated. The radiators warm up quickly from a cold start...depending on
>outside temperature. The fan unit outside is fairly quiet ~50DbA and
>cannot be heard in the house. I am not using the immersion heaters, only
>the heat pump for a sustained water temperature of 50C.

According to Building Regs, you ought to be dead of legionella by now.
--
Algernon

On 12/03/2023 17:32, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:
> Smolley <s@home.net> posted
>> I live in West Cumbria in a three bedroomed house that is very well
>> insulated. The radiators warm up quickly from a cold start...depending on
>> outside temperature. The fan unit outside is fairly quiet ~50DbA and
>> cannot be heard in the house. I am not using the immersion heaters, only
>> the heat pump for a sustained water temperature of 50C.
>
> According to Building Regs, you ought to be dead of legionella by now.

Clearly not as the ASHP will run its scheduled 'legionella' cycle weekly
or every second week, getting the water above 60 degrees to kill off any
legionella bacteria. And, of course, very few domestic cases of
legionella have ever been found, and it is a low risk.
--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On 12 Mar 2023 at 16:50:35 GMT, Max Demian wrote:

>> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
>> ground source.
>
> Have they upgraded regulations for new builds to make them suitable for
> heat pumps? If they have I expect developers will lobby for them to be
> watered down.

Not to my knowledge - in the sense that a good deal more insulating should be
done, and there's no requirement for mechanical heat recovery ventilation.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 12/03/2023 17:49, RJH wrote:
> On 12 Mar 2023 at 16:50:35 GMT, Max Demian wrote:
>
>>> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
>>> ground source.
>>
>> Have they upgraded regulations for new builds to make them suitable for
>> heat pumps? If they have I expect developers will lobby for them to be
>> watered down.
>
> Not to my knowledge - in the sense that a good deal more insulating should be
> done, and there's no requirement for mechanical heat recovery ventilation.
>

Building Regs changed last year to give lower U values for new builds
and extensions etc.
They can still go further, as you say, MVHR should be compulsory, and
far better insulation is easily done, but, the big house builders still
do the bare minimum they can get away with.
--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On 12/03/2023 15:59, David wrote:
> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>
> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>
> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>
> (1) if it poorly insulated
> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>
> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>
> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
> gas for heating.
>
> Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>
> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>
> This is, of course, air source.
>
> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
> ground source.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Dave R
>

Well worth watching that program on C5 catchup to see how badly
the roof structure was built (and just how much timber was used)
simply to create a 'dormer' bungalow.

And they bought the site without realising that shit does not
flow uphill, so an expensive giant 'saniflow' had to be buried
in the ground immediately outside the property.

On 12 Mar 2023 15:59:57 GMT, David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:

><https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
>leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>
>Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>
>Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>
>(1) if it poorly insulated
>(2) if the radiators are under sized
>
>This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>
>The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
>than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
>gas for heating.
>
>Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>
>It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
>temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>
>This is, of course, air source.
>
>I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
>ground source.
>
>Cheers
>
>
>
>Dave R

Heat pumps aren't viable unless you live in somewhere like Iceland.
They're only suitable for virtue-signaling douchebags who want to brag
about how green they are to the neighbours. Ten grand down the shitter
just for the bragging rights? No thanks.

On 12/03/2023 16:50, Max Demian wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 15:59, David wrote:
>> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
>> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>>
>> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>>
>> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>>
>> (1) if it poorly insulated
>> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>>
>> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>
> Greenies like to claim that they are really easy to fit and (almost) can
> just be swapped for a combi boiler. When people find out this isn't
> true, the whole project will be thrown into chaos.
>
> For air source the outside unit is very large: much bigger than the air
> con/fridge units on the side of shops. And noisy, so you can't put it
> near your neighbours which might mean it'll be in the middle of your
> garden.
>
> The inside unit is larger too, and you will need a cupboard to
> accommodate a large water cylinder, perhaps with a cold header tank.
> People are used to combis that you just hang on the wall somewhere.
>
> Replacing the radiators with larger ones could be disruptive, even more
> so for underfloor heating.
>
> Insulation will have to be improved. Most people already have double
> glazing, loft insulation and cavity wall insulation, so it's not clear
> what you can do. Most properties aren't suitable for external cladding,
> so you would have to put extra insulation inside the walls and under the
> floor. This would mean everyone moving out and living in a hotel for two
> or three weeks and putting their furniture in storage. When they move
> back in they will find that nothing fits as all the rooms are smaller.
>

A new build will typically have a 100mm cavity either fully-filled
with rockwool batts or have 50mm celotex clamped tightly (if only)
to the inner leaf, joints tape with silver tape and a 50mm cavity.

Putting 50mm of celotex inside, plus 9mm PB isn't that bad, apart
from the disruption and relocation of switches and sockets.

External wall insulation is probably better. I have seen quite
a few '60's houses cladded and they had cavity walls anyway. If you
live in a property with 9inch solid walls you *need* to do something,
pretending that double glazing and a log burner are adequate is
just burying your head in the sand.

2 years from now we will see what Labour have in store. Expect
a massive resurgence of home-sellers packs with updated thermal
requirements. Some houses are going to be unsaleable, apart from at
auction methinks, unless £thousands are invested.

On 12/03/2023 17:55, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 17:49, RJH wrote:
>> On 12 Mar 2023 at 16:50:35 GMT, Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>>> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to
>>>> install
>>>> ground source.
>>>
>>> Have they upgraded regulations for new builds to make them suitable for
>>> heat pumps? If they have I expect developers will lobby for them to be
>>> watered down.
>>
>> Not to my knowledge - in the sense that a good deal more insulating
>> should be
>> done, and there's no requirement for mechanical heat recovery
>> ventilation.
>>
>
> Building Regs changed last year to give lower U values for new builds
> and extensions etc.
> They can still go further, as you say, MVHR should be compulsory, and
> far better insulation is easily done, but, the big house builders still
> do the bare minimum they can get away with.

Some Bellway houses were built near me in 2010. In 2017 one
had an extension built. It was inches away from a public
footpath and when the existing cavity was was broken into
to attach the extension, it was obvious that the only
insulation inside the existing cavity wall was 1 inch thick
EPS just flapping about *loose* inside the cavity. So utterly
pointless.

On 12/03/2023 18:07, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On 12 Mar 2023 15:59:57 GMT, David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
>> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>>
>> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>>
>> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>>
>> (1) if it poorly insulated
>> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>>
>> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>>
>> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
>> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
>> gas for heating.
>>
>> Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>>
>> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
>> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>>
>> This is, of course, air source.
>>
>> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to install
>> ground source.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave R
>
>
> Heat pumps aren't viable unless you live in somewhere like Iceland.
> They're only suitable for virtue-signaling douchebags who want to brag
> about how green they are to the neighbours. Ten grand down the shitter
> just for the bragging rights? No thanks.

Meanwhile, out in the real world Southern East Africa is about to
be hit again by Cyclone Freddy that has been going for over 33 days,
and in California they are having 'Pineapple rain' (whatever that is).
And at 'The Marrams' in Hemby (got to laugh at that name), a few more
wooden 'temporary' houses have become floating (sinking) pontoons.

https://www.wildlifetrusts.org/wildlife-explorer/grasses-sedges-and-rushes/marram-grass

Those houses are built on a sand dune on an eroding coastline with
sea levels rising.

On 12/03/2023 17:41, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 16:54, Max Demian wrote:
>> If they do increase the price of gas everyone will freeze to death and
>
>
> No they wont.
> I dont consider myself as old, but some people will (born 1964). We
> didnt have central heating until the mid-70's, in fact few people did,
> and, we didnt freeze to death. We had a coal fire, and an immersion
> heater.That was it for the heat, apart from the oven and hob.
> Ice was on the inside of the single glazed windows in the morning. The
> vast majority of houses nowadays have far better insulation than in the
> 70's, ice inside is unheard of now.
> People will just cut back a little, and only use the minimum of gas to
> keep one room warm, then, go to bed with more blankets.
> How do you think poeple in Ukraine are coping? We dont hear any stories
> of people freezing to death.

While basically true, one difficulty is that far fewer places have
things like open fire places, many will have combi boilers and so no
immersion etc, any many younger households may have no memory of what it
used to be like and how to survive.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 12/03/2023 16:50, Max Demian wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 15:59, David wrote:
>> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
>> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>>
>> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>>
>> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>>
>> (1) if it poorly insulated
>> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>>
>> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>
> Greenies like to claim that they are really easy to fit and (almost) can
> just be swapped for a combi boiler. When people find out this isn't
> true, the whole project will be thrown into chaos.
>
> For air source the outside unit is very large: much bigger than the air
> con/fridge units on the side of shops. And noisy, so you can't put it
> near your neighbours which might mean it'll be in the middle of your
> garden.

This is quite a good review of one properly installed, and shows the COP
over (most of) the winter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMMyhBku6Ic

> The inside unit is larger too, and you will need a cupboard to
> accommodate a large water cylinder, perhaps with a cold header tank.

There would be little point installing a header tank of there is not
one. An unvented cylinder would make more sense.

> People are used to combis that you just hang on the wall somewhere.
>
> Replacing the radiators with larger ones could be disruptive, even more
> so for underfloor heating.

Yup it could be. Although in some cases it could be a case of swapping
to the same size rad but with more panels / fins etc.

> Insulation will have to be improved. Most people already have double
> glazing, loft insulation and cavity wall insulation, so it's not clear
> what you can do. Most properties aren't suitable for external cladding,
> so you would have to put extra insulation inside the walls and under the
> floor. This would mean everyone moving out and living in a hotel for two
> or three weeks and putting their furniture in storage. When they move
> back in they will find that nothing fits as all the rooms are smaller.
>
>> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
>> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
>> gas for heating.
>>
>> Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>
> Yes, as there isn't much heat in the air outside to extract.

its still 278 degrees above (absolute) zero - to plenty to extract. The
difficulty can be the need to run de-icing cycles on the main evaporator.

>
>> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
>> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>>
>> This is, of course, air source.
>
> Ground source will involve digging up the garden (if you have one) to
> put all the pipes. What if they leak or an overenthusiastic gardener
> does some "double digging" and hits one?

Then they were not buried deep enough!

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 12/03/2023 18:28, Andrew wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 18:07, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> On 12 Mar 2023 15:59:57 GMT, David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
>>> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>>>
>>> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>>>
>>> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>>>
>>> (1) if it poorly insulated
>>> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>>>
>>> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>>>
>>> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
>>> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to
>>> use
>>> gas for heating.
>>>
>>> Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>>>
>>> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
>>> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>>>
>>> This is, of course, air source.
>>>
>>> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to
>>> install
>>> ground source.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave R
>>
>>
>> Heat pumps aren't viable unless you live in somewhere like Iceland.
>> They're only suitable for virtue-signaling douchebags who want to brag
>> about how green they are to the neighbours. Ten grand down the shitter
>> just for the bragging rights? No thanks.
>
> Meanwhile, out in the real world Southern East Africa is about to
> be hit again by Cyclone Freddy that has been going for over 33 days,
> and in California they are having 'Pineapple rain' (whatever that is).
> And at 'The Marrams' in Hemby (got to laugh at that name), a few more
> wooden 'temporary' houses have become floating (sinking) pontoons.
>
> https://www.wildlifetrusts.org/wildlife-explorer/grasses-sedges-and-rushes/marram-grass
>
> Those houses are built on a sand dune on an eroding coastline with
> sea levels rising.
>
Those houses are built on a sand dune on an eroding coastline,

Sea levels are not rising significantly more than they have for the last
5000 years
--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On 12 Mar 2023 at 19:13:37 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 12/03/2023 18:28, Andrew wrote:
>> On 12/03/2023 18:07, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> On 12 Mar 2023 15:59:57 GMT, David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>>>>
>>>> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>>>>
>>>> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>>>>
>>>> (1) if it poorly insulated
>>>> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>>>>
>>>> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>>>>
>>>> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
>>>> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to
>>>> use
>>>> gas for heating.
>>>>
>>>> Does this seem a reasonable claim?
>>>>
>>>> It could make a big difference if you lived on the wrong side of the
>>>> temperature divide which is often seen in the North West.
>>>>
>>>> This is, of course, air source.
>>>>
>>>> I assume (probably wrongly) that new builds will have the scope to
>>>> install
>>>> ground source.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave R
>>>
>>>
>>> Heat pumps aren't viable unless you live in somewhere like Iceland.
>>> They're only suitable for virtue-signaling douchebags who want to brag
>>> about how green they are to the neighbours. Ten grand down the shitter
>>> just for the bragging rights? No thanks.
>>
>> Meanwhile, out in the real world Southern East Africa is about to
>> be hit again by Cyclone Freddy that has been going for over 33 days,
>> and in California they are having 'Pineapple rain' (whatever that is).
>> And at 'The Marrams' in Hemby (got to laugh at that name), a few more
>> wooden 'temporary' houses have become floating (sinking) pontoons.
>>
>> https://www.wildlifetrusts.org/wildlife-explorer/grasses-sedges-and-rushes/marram-grass
>>
>> Those houses are built on a sand dune on an eroding coastline with
>> sea levels rising.
>>
> Those houses are built on a sand dune on an eroding coastline,
>
> Sea levels are not rising significantly more than they have for the last
> 5000 years

The state of the sea-level is minor compared to how much it rises when there's
a really high tide, with a strong northerly over the North Sea piling up the
water at the southern end as well. Then, East Anglia tends to flood. And since
the coast there is largely comprised of low cliffs made of mud, hardly
surprising that feet of it send to vanish during such episodes.

--
When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain you vote for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you don't like it you can change it.

Tony Benn

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 17:32:12 +0000, Algernon Goss-Custard wrote:

> Smolley <s@home.net> posted
>>I live in West Cumbria in a three bedroomed house that is very well
>>insulated. The radiators warm up quickly from a cold start...depending
>>on outside temperature. The fan unit outside is fairly quiet ~50DbA and
>>cannot be heard in the house. I am not using the immersion heaters, only
>>the heat pump for a sustained water temperature of 50C.
>
> According to Building Regs, you ought to be dead of legionella by now.

Ah yes the only case I remember was the BBC air conditioning ducts at
Broacasting House, but they had not been cleaned out for 8 decades.

On 12-Mar-23 15:59, David wrote:
> <https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-11830589/How-heat-pumps-
> leave-homes-cold-owners-having-ripped-out.html>
>
> Seems mainly the usual "oh, the horror" followed by inconvenient facts.
>
> Heap pumps can fail to heat your home:
>
> (1) if it poorly insulated
> (2) if the radiators are under sized
>
> This comes under the "No shit, Sherlock!" banner.
>
> The interesting bit was a claim that if the external temperature is less
> than 5C then the efficiency drops right off and it becomes cheaper to use
> gas for heating.
>
> Does this seem a reasonable claim?

So... In just the sort of weather when you really _need_ heating, it's
no bliddy use?

Have I got that right?

I come from the "put an extra jumper on" old-school approach to thermal
management, but when the outside temperature drops really low I want
heating.

--
Sam Plusnet

John Rumm wrote:

> This is quite a good review of one properly installed, and shows the COP
> over (most of) the winter:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMMyhBku6Ic

I had watched the start of that before, thought the customer had been
coached somewhat, besides if it's the same radiators just fed from a
heatpump, how can it eliminate hotspots? Stopped watching at that point ...