AIUI If I had solar panels on the roof of my house I could connect the
inverter via a switch to the 13 amp socket in my attic. If I did that
how would I ensure that the energy from the panels is used either by
equipment in my house or goes out through my meter and makes it count
backwards.

--
Michael Chare

On 31/03/2023 17:17, Michael Chare wrote:
> AIUI If I had solar panels on the roof of my house I could connect the
> inverter via a switch to the 13 amp socket in my attic. If I did that
> how would I ensure that the energy from the panels is used either by
> equipment in my house or goes out through my meter and makes it count
> backwards.
>
>
Juts drink the koolaid and Believe In Solar Energy.

Like everyone else does.

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 31/03/2023 17:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 31/03/2023 17:17, Michael Chare wrote:
>> AIUI If I had solar panels on the roof of my house I could connect the
>> inverter via a switch to the 13 amp socket in my attic. If I did that
>> how would I ensure that the energy from the panels is used either by
>> equipment in my house or goes out through my meter and makes it count
>> backwards.
>>
>>
> Juts drink the koolaid and Believe In Solar Energy.
>
> Like everyone else does.

That's a typically unhelpful reply from TNP.

My understanding is that there is no longer a Feed In Tariff for newly
installed solar panels. Most installations either use Lithium batteries
to store excess energy or use it to heat up your hot water tank.

Michael Chare wrote:

> AIUI If I had solar panels on the roof of my house I could connect the
> inverter via a switch to the 13 amp socket in my attic.

Via a live 13A plug? I hope not, switched FCU would be better, on its
own MCB in the CU even better.

> If I did that how would I ensure that the energy from the panels is
> used either by equipment in my house or goes out through my meter and
> makes it count backwards.
That's the inverter's job, it makes sure its output is fractionally
higher voltage than the mains, but lots of meters won't actually count
backwards, electronic ones may display RED (reverse energy detected)

You wouldn't need permission for a micro-inverter (since it's below 16A
per phase) but you need to buy a type approved inverter

<https://www.ena-eng.org/producttypetestregister/Product.aspx>

And notify the DNO via a G98 form before fitting

<https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/resource-library/g98-connecting-domestic-scale-type-tested-generation-summary-guide-(single-premises).pdf>

Fredxx wrote:

> My understanding is that there is no longer a Feed In Tariff for newly
> installed solar panels.

Not by that name, however there is a Small Export Guarantee, which pays
somewhere between fuck all (1.0p/kWh) and 15p or 34p for some Octopus
tariffs (read your own small-print).

On 31/03/2023 17:40, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> Michael Chare wrote:
>
>> AIUI If I had solar panels on the roof of my house I could connect the
>> inverter via a switch to the 13 amp socket in my attic.
>
> Via a live 13A plug? I hope not, switched FCU would be better, on its
> own MCB in the CU even better.
>
>> If I did that how would I ensure that the energy from the panels is
>> used either by equipment in my house or goes out through my meter and
>> makes it count backwards.
> That's the inverter's job, it makes sure its output is fractionally
> higher voltage than the mains, but lots of meters won't actually count
> backwards, electronic ones may display RED (reverse energy detected)
>
> You wouldn't need permission for a micro-inverter (since it's below 16A
> per phase) but you need to buy a type approved inverter
>
> <https://www.ena-eng.org/producttypetestregister/Product.aspx>

I tried a couple of dozen download links across multiple pages and all
resulted in a 404. Do any work for you?

--

Jeff

On 31/03/2023 17:45, Andy Burns wrote:
> Fredxx wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that there is no longer a Feed In Tariff for newly
>> installed solar panels.
>
> Not by that name, however there is a Small Export Guarantee, which pays
> somewhere between fuck all (1.0p/kWh) and 15p or 34p for some Octopus
> tariffs (read your own small-print).

I live and learn:
https://www.solarpanelprices.co.uk/articles/solar-panels/best-smart-export-guarantee-tariffs/

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I tried a couple of dozen download links across multiple pages and all
> resulted in a 404. Do any work for you?

It looks borked to me.

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> <https://www.ena-eng.org/producttypetestregister/Product.aspx>
>
> I tried a couple of dozen download links across multiple pages and all
> resulted in a 404. Do any work for you?

No, but they used to a few months ago ...

On 31/03/2023 17:45, Andy Burns wrote:
> Fredxx wrote:
>
>> My understanding is that there is no longer a Feed In Tariff for newly
>> installed solar panels.
>
> Not by that name, however there is a Small Export Guarantee, which pays
> somewhere between fuck all (1.0p/kWh) and 15p or 34p for some Octopus
> tariffs (read your own small-print).
>

Not forgetting to establish what the tariff may be when you are importing.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 31/03/2023 17:40, Andy Burns wrote:

>
> You wouldn't need permission for a micro-inverter (since it's below 16A
> per phase) but you need to buy a type approved inverter
>
> <https://www.ena-eng.org/producttypetestregister/Product.aspx>
>
> And notify the DNO via a G98 form before fitting
>
> <https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/resource-library/g98-connecting-domestic-scale-type-tested-generation-summary-guide-(single-premises).pdf>

I was under the impression that the installation had to be signed off if
the electricity was to be exported to the grid and in practice finding
anyone that would be willing to sign off a DIY installation was close to
zero.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote:

> I was under the impression that the installation had to be signed off if
> the electricity was to be exported to the grid and in practice finding
> anyone that would be willing to sign off a DIY installation was close to
> zero.

G99 systems (over 16A per phase) permission needs to be applied for, G98
it's only a case of notifying them.

It needs to be signed-off by an MCS installer if you want to be paid
under the SEG scheme, and yes, they are highly unlikely to sign-of a
DIYed installation, but the best plan is to make sure you use all your
own electrons, and don't export anything ...

On 31/03/2023 19:40, alan_m wrote:
> On 31/03/2023 17:40, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>>
>> You wouldn't need permission for a micro-inverter (since it's below
>> 16A per phase) but you need to buy a type approved inverter
>>
>> <https://www.ena-eng.org/producttypetestregister/Product.aspx>
>>
>> And notify the DNO via a G98 form before fitting
>>
>> <https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/resource-library/g98-connecting-domestic-scale-type-tested-generation-summary-guide-(single-premises).pdf>
>
> I was under the impression that the installation had to be signed off if
> the electricity was to be exported to the grid and in practice finding
> anyone that would be willing to sign off a DIY installation was close to
> zero.
>

that is my understanding too....

However, if you also had battery storage, you could hopefully get away
with not exporting, but using the battery where either the load exceeds
the solar PV output or where there is no sun and this reduce your
electricity consumption from teh grid.

Do you still need to do the g98 et al rigmarole as the only net effect
on the grid is that you consume less electricty instead of exporting it.

SH wrote:

> Do you still need to do the g98 et al rigmarole as the only net effect
> on the grid is that you consume less electricty instead of exporting it.

Yes, because the DNOs don't want your inverter zapping their repair bods
if the power goes off ...

On 31/03/2023 20:19, Andy Burns wrote:
> SH wrote:
>
>> Do you still need to do the g98 et al rigmarole as the only net effect
>> on the grid is that you consume less electricty instead of exporting it.
>
> Yes, because the DNOs don't want your inverter zapping their repair bods
> if the power goes off ...
>

....or overloading the substation on a sunny summer's day if a number of
roofs are exporting, which is why you have to seek permission to have
generation capacity of more than 3.6kW installed.

Also, while a qualified electrician can sign off an installation, for
SEG you still require him to be Microgeneration Certification Scheme
accredited else you get nothing for export.

On 31/03/2023 19:35, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> <https://www.ena-eng.org/producttypetestregister/Product.aspx>
>>
>> I tried a couple of dozen download links across multiple pages and all
>> resulted in a 404. Do any work for you?
>
> No, but they used to a few months ago ...
>
>
>
Green energy firms die as as fasts as the latest bullshit about green
energy gets exposed.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.ena-eng.org/producttypetestregister/Product.aspx>
>>>
>>> I tried a couple of dozen download links across multiple pages and
>>> all resulted in a 404. Do any work for you?
>>
>> No, but they used to a few months ago ...
>
> Green energy firms die as as fasts as the latest bullshit about green
> energy gets exposed.

It's not a manufacturer specific site, here's a different page that
isn't b0rked

<https://www.ena-eng.org/gen-ttr/Index?Action=ViewDetail&EID=54939017&tab=search>

On 31/03/2023 20:43, ajh wrote:
> On 31/03/2023 20:19, Andy Burns wrote:
>> SH wrote:
>>
>>> Do you still need to do the g98 et al rigmarole as the only net
>>> effect on the grid is that you consume less electricty instead of
>>> exporting it.
>>
>> Yes, because the DNOs don't want your inverter zapping their repair
>> bods if the power goes off ...
>>
>
> ...or overloading the substation on a sunny summer's day if a number
> of roofs are exporting, which is why you have to seek permission to
> have generation capacity of more than 3.6kW installed.

What I can't get my head around is surely the energy will flow back
though the local 415/11kV transformer, into that system, and then the
11/33kV transformer, and so on until it's being absorbed all over
Europe. In other words, a bit like pissing in the sea ?

Mark Carver wrote:

> What I can't get my head around is surely the energy will flow back
> though the local 415/11kV transformer, into that system, and then
> the 11/33kV transformer, and so on until it's being absorbed all
> over Europe. In other words, a bit like pissing in the sea ?

But pissing with a million dicks.

Not sure the extra few mV from Michael's inverter would force its way
through the HVDC links to europe, wouldn't the rectifiers and inverters
at each end of the link regulate the voltage?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
> > What I can't get my head around is surely the energy will flow back
> > though the local 415/11kV transformer, into that system, and then
> > the 11/33kV transformer, and so on until it's being absorbed all
> > over Europe. In other words, a bit like pissing in the sea ?
>
> But pissing with a million dicks.
>
> Not sure the extra few mV from Michael's inverter would force its way
> through the HVDC links to europe, wouldn't the rectifiers and inverters
> at each end of the link regulate the voltage?

Not so much 'force', but it's surplus energy will affect how much exported.
eg if those million are each generating 1kW then that's 1GW which is a
measurable chunk of national consumption. That's enough to idle a CCGT
plant or two - either in the UK or in Europe. Where it flows is decided by
the network operator - they don't see your individual output but they all
add up.

In reality, your output is likely to be powering somebody else in your
street/village/town/etc, but the reduction in demand can be seen at the
larger scale. Mostly we don't have enough solar right now to put the wider
grid into surplus, even if individual local sections may struggle.

(wind has more overcapacity issues, but I think windfarms aren't hooking
into the domestic distribution network)

Theo

On 01/04/2023 11:16, Theo wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>>> What I can't get my head around is surely the energy will flow back
>>> though the local 415/11kV transformer, into that system, and then
>>> the 11/33kV transformer, and so on until it's being absorbed all
>>> over Europe. In other words, a bit like pissing in the sea ?
>>
>> But pissing with a million dicks.
>>
>> Not sure the extra few mV from Michael's inverter would force its way
>> through the HVDC links to europe, wouldn't the rectifiers and inverters
>> at each end of the link regulate the voltage?
>
> Not so much 'force', but it's surplus energy will affect how much exported.
> eg if those million are each generating 1kW then that's 1GW which is a
> measurable chunk of national consumption. That's enough to idle a CCGT
> plant or two - either in the UK or in Europe. Where it flows is decided by
> the network operator - they don't see your individual output but they all
> add up.
>
> In reality, your output is likely to be powering somebody else in your
> street/village/town/etc, but the reduction in demand can be seen at the
> larger scale. Mostly we don't have enough solar right now to put the wider
> grid into surplus, even if individual local sections may struggle.

ISTR that a few years ago, Germany was actually paying people to
consume, because bright sunny weather was generating too much power.

On 01/04/2023 10:19, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 31/03/2023 20:43, ajh wrote:

>>
>> ...or overloading the substation on a sunny summer's day if a number
>> of roofs are exporting, which is why you have to seek permission to
>> have generation capacity of more than 3.6kW installed.
>
> What I can't get my head around is surely the energy will flow back
> though the local 415/11kV transformer, into that system, and then the
> 11/33kV transformer, and so on until it's being absorbed all over
> Europe. In other words, a bit like pissing in the sea ?
>
>
>

I suppose a substation feeds in the order of a few tens of houses, each
with the capability of demanding 60-100 amps but the diversity of
consumption means that the average load for each house at any moment is
say ~4kW. So the substation can deliver 4kW times the say 30 houses on
each phase on the 240V side of the transformer. Above that and the
voltage goes down until there is a brown out I suppose.

OTOH if a large number of houses have micro generation and that exceeds
the 4kW each the 240V side of the substation could become overloaded if
there is little demand from other houses on the phase.

Not a problem at current levels of home generation but...

One thing we do know about renewable generation is there is no incentive
on any of the distribution network to increase capacity because we have
a dysfunctional pricing system that assumed gas prices should dictate a
baseline amongst other anomalies like charging grid interconnected
storage both ways for transmission.

ajh wrote:

> I suppose a substation feeds in the order of a few tens of houses,
> each with the capability of demanding 60-100 amps but the diversity
> of consumption means that the average load for each house at any
> moment is say ~4kW.

My annual electrical consumption is 2628 kWh, so an average of 300 W.

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> On 01/04/2023 11:16, Theo wrote:
> > Not so much 'force', but it's surplus energy will affect how much exported.
> > eg if those million are each generating 1kW then that's 1GW which is a
> > measurable chunk of national consumption. That's enough to idle a CCGT
> > plant or two - either in the UK or in Europe. Where it flows is decided by
> > the network operator - they don't see your individual output but they all
> > add up.
> >
> > In reality, your output is likely to be powering somebody else in your
> > street/village/town/etc, but the reduction in demand can be seen at the
> > larger scale. Mostly we don't have enough solar right now to put the wider
> > grid into surplus, even if individual local sections may struggle.
>
> ISTR that a few years ago, Germany was actually paying people to
> consume, because bright sunny weather was generating too much power.

This happens in the UK occasionally ('negative pricing' on agile tariffs).
AIUI it it's a bit of a quirk of the way wind is priced: operators are paid for
their generation, but if the grid can't take their generation they're paid a
second time to shutter it. Hence it's cheaper to pay people to consume than
it is to pay the shuttering costs.

I think it's largely because of transmission limits: it is not that there's
surplus power, but there's not enough grid capacity to take it where it's
needed. For offshore wind that's Scotland->England capacity, for solar it's
local network sections being overwhelmed.

The negative pricing itself is often triggered at times of low demand
(middle of a stormy night) rather than anomalously high generation.

Theo

Theo wrote:

> SteveW wrote:
>
>> ISTR that a few years ago, Germany was actually paying people to
>> consume, because bright sunny weather was generating too much power.
>
> This happens in the UK occasionally ('negative pricing' on agile tariffs).

Seems to happen less often now ...

<https://agileprices.co.uk>
<https://energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-east-midlands/>