Starring Ogden and yours truly.

https://youtu.be/bZXQw5rFcgs

I blame the FIVE HOURS of waiting around for our second run. It was a
weird day, one of our lot carted off with broken bones and some crazy
number (25?) of red flags.

--
/Simon

On 26/04/2022 18:51, siwilson wrote:
> Starring Ogden and yours truly.
>
> https://youtu.be/bZXQw5rFcgs
>
> I blame the FIVE HOURS of waiting around for our second run. It was a
> weird day, one of our lot carted off with broken bones and some crazy
> number (25?) of red flags.

Classic commentary style. Strange emphasis on "Austrian-built KTM",
suggesting that some KTMs are built in Outer Mongolia or something.

And as for "almost overcooked it" ... 'almost' doing a lot of the heavy
lifting in that sentence, I think.

--
Eddie eddie@deguello.org

Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:
> On 26/04/2022 18:51, siwilson wrote:
>> Starring Ogden and yours truly.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/bZXQw5rFcgs
>>
>> I blame the FIVE HOURS of waiting around for our second run. It was a
>> weird day, one of our lot carted off with broken bones and some crazy
>> number (25?) of red flags.
>
> Classic commentary style. Strange emphasis on "Austrian-built KTM",
> suggesting that some KTMs are built in Outer Mongolia or something.
>
> And as for "almost overcooked it" ... 'almost' doing a lot of the heavy
> lifting in that sentence, I think.

I believe he also said the Husqvarna was a Swedish bike, not sure
that's necessarily true anymore after being bought by KTM.

Got a slight chuckle at the Velocette conking out in direct proximity
to the announcer's patter about them being fast in their day.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

Mark Olson wrote:
> Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:
> > siwilson wrote:
> >> https://youtu.be/bZXQw5rFcgs
>
> > Classic commentary style. Strange emphasis on "Austrian-built KTM",
> > suggesting that some KTMs are built in Outer Mongolia or something.

Well, they are. Not Outer Mongolia, but India, certainly, and a few other far-flung places. All the small-capacity road bikes are shipped in. But...

> I believe he also said the Husqvarna was a Swedish bike, not sure
> that's necessarily true anymore after being bought by KTM.

....it's certainly not the best commentary. Any perpetual argument about foot-up vs foot-down, or short-travel vs long-travel, is very much in his own head. It always sounds weird when he talks about riders being "in" their bikes, as if he hasn't noticed they're not cars.

> Got a slight chuckle at the Velocette conking out in direct proximity
> to the announcer's patter about them being fast in their day.

It's nice that they let the old gimmers have a go though. And I am, of course, talking about Simon.

On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
> Mark Olson wrote:
>> Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:
>>> siwilson wrote:
>>>> https://youtu.be/bZXQw5rFcgs
>>
>>> Classic commentary style. Strange emphasis on "Austrian-built
>>> KTM", suggesting that some KTMs are built in Outer Mongolia or
>>> something.
>
> Well, they are. Not Outer Mongolia, but India, certainly, and a few
> other far-flung places. All the small-capacity road bikes are shipped
> in. But...

Oh. Shows how much attention I've been paying.

>> I believe he also said the Husqvarna was a Swedish bike, not sure
>> that's necessarily true anymore after being bought by KTM.
>
> ...it's certainly not the best commentary. Any perpetual argument
> about foot-up vs foot-down, or short-travel vs long-travel, is very
> much in his own head. It always sounds weird when he talks about
> riders being "in" their bikes, as if he hasn't noticed they're not
> cars.

Very old-fashioned. Probably still considers electronic ignition to be
the work of the devil.

>> Got a slight chuckle at the Velocette conking out in direct
>> proximity to the announcer's patter about them being fast in their
>> day.
>
> It's nice that they let the old gimmers have a go though. And I am,
> of course, talking about Simon.

Enjoy it while it lasts, you young whippersnapper.

--
Eddie eddie@deguello.org

On 27/04/2022 15:55, Eddie wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>> Mark Olson wrote:
>>> Eddie <ed...@deguello.org> wrote:
>>>> siwilson wrote:
>>>>> https://youtu.be/bZXQw5rFcgs
>>>
>>>> Classic commentary style. Strange emphasis on "Austrian-built
>>>> KTM", suggesting that some KTMs are built in Outer Mongolia or
>>>> something.
>>
>
>>> I believe he also said the Husqvarna was a Swedish bike, not sure
>>> that's necessarily true anymore after being bought by KTM.
>>
>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary. Any perpetual argument
>> about foot-up vs foot-down, or short-travel vs long-travel, is very
>> much in his own head. It always sounds weird when he talks about
>> riders being "in" their bikes, as if he hasn't noticed they're not
>> cars.
>
> Very old-fashioned. Probably still considers electronic ignition to be
> the work of the devil.

It most definitely is!
It lures you in with all sorts of temptations about making life easier
and then....
B'stard!

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Olson wrote:

>> I believe he also said the Husqvarna was a Swedish bike, not sure
>> that's necessarily true anymore after being bought by KTM.
>
> ...it's certainly not the best commentary. Any perpetual argument
> about foot-up vs foot-down, or short-travel vs long-travel, is very
> much in his own head. It always sounds weird when he talks about riders
> being "in" their bikes, as if he hasn't noticed they're not cars.

I did get the impression he was a 'car guy' and doing his best to
handle commentating on the bikes.

>> Got a slight chuckle at the Velocette conking out in direct proximity
>> to the announcer's patter about them being fast in their day.
>
> It's nice that they let the old gimmers have a go though. And I am, of course, talking about Simon.

Oof.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.

At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".

:-)
--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>
> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".

The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
in order to create a turning moment -

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg

El Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:50:27 +0100, Sqirrel99 escribió:

> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>
>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for
>> "air-braking".
>
> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
> in order to create a turning moment -
>
> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/
why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg

Hmm, centrifugal force, eh?

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

On 28/04/2022 07:50, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>
>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>
> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
> in order to create a turning moment -
>
> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg

I thought they did it because Rossi started doing it, and then started
to find justification for it.

Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 28/04/2022 07:50, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
>> in order to create a turning moment -
>>
>> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg
>
> I thought they did it because Rossi started doing it, and then started
> to find justification for it.

While that is entirely true, it doesn't mean that it doesn't also
have a useful effect physical given the physics involved.
Of course, as the article speculates, it may be only psychological
for many riders.

Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:50:27 +0100, Sqirrel99 escribió:
>
>> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for
>>> "air-braking".
>> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
>> in order to create a turning moment -
>>
>> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/
> why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg
>
> Hmm, centrifugal force, eh?

It's seagulls all over again !

On 29/04/2022 08:19, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>Mike Fleming wrote:
>> On 28/04/2022 07:50, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>>> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>>> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
>>> in order to create a turning moment -
>>>
>>> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg
>>
>> I thought they did it because Rossi started doing it, and then started
>> to find justification for it.
>
>While that is entirely true, it doesn't mean that it doesn't also
>have a useful effect physical given the physics involved.
>Of course, as the article speculates, it may be only psychological
>for many riders.

As in, "Oops, I might be about to fall sideways!"?

Chris

--
XV750SE & GS550T

ChrisND @UKRM wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 08:19, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>> Mike Fleming wrote:
>>> On 28/04/2022 07:50, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>>>> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>>>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>>>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>>>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>>>> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
>>>> in order to create a turning moment -
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg
>>> I thought they did it because Rossi started doing it, and then started
>>> to find justification for it.
>> While that is entirely true, it doesn't mean that it doesn't also
>> have a useful effect physical given the physics involved.
>> Of course, as the article speculates, it may be only psychological
>> for many riders.
>
> As in, "Oops, I might be about to fall sideways!"?

Seems to work for Deliveroo riders.

On 28/04/2022 07:50, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>
>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>
> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
> in order to create a turning moment -
>
> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg

Of the three main effects mentioned:

1) Drag. Clearly sticking your leg out will cause some drag and that
will slow the bike a bit more than sitting-up alone will do, but it's
all pretty minimal compared with the actual brakes. Keeping them up to
temperature will have a far bigger effect.

2) Turning moment. Riders could put a knee out to achieve the same
amount of drag and turning moment. But they don't do this - they dangle
the leg instead - so it's not turning moment.

The counter-steer assist suggested in the article is plain wrong.

3) Mass redistribution. I think this is most likely because - as the
article says - your leg is quite heavy and moving that mass forward
means the centre of mass goes forward. Think of it as moving weight from
the back of the bike to the front - which means there is less trying to
make the back wheel come round and overtake the front. This will
translate as more stability entering the corner.

In theory, therefore, putting both legs out forwards would double the
benefit. Unfortunately the first rider who had the balls to try this no
longer has any. :-)

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 27/04/2022 23:12, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>
> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>
> :-)

Having re-watched my little excursion, I noticed my foot's off the peg
in that corner too. I think that was more a reaction to "oh crap I'm
gonna crash" than any science.

AIUI, in hillclimbing, it come's from the dirtbike technique which is
supposed to load up the front for more grip. I've no idea if it works or
not, but most of the quick hillclimbers do it.

--
/Simon

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 10:36:07 +0100, siwilson
<siwilson@nodamnspam.hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 27/04/2022 23:12, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>
>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>>
>> :-)
>
>Having re-watched my little excursion, I noticed my foot's off the peg
>in that corner too. I think that was more a reaction to "oh crap I'm
>gonna crash" than any science.
>
>AIUI, in hillclimbing, it come's from the dirtbike technique which is
>supposed to load up the front for more grip. I've no idea if it works or
>not, but most of the quick hillclimbers do it.

That's what the MX lore says. I have a sneakng suspicion that getting
weight forward helps compress the front a tiny bit and shorten the
trail, and helps the bike turn in, but I've never seen any reference
to this anywhere.

--

-Pip

On 28/04/2022 18:56, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>El Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:50:27 +0100, Sqirrel99 escribió:
>
>> Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>> On 27/04/2022 13:28, ogden wrote:
>>>> ...it's certainly not the best commentary.
>>>
>>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for
>>> "air-braking".
>>
>> The following article by Mark McVeigh suggests that they indeed do,
>> in order to create a turning moment -
>>
>> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/racing/
>why-do-racers-dangle-their-leg
>
>
>Hmm, centrifugal force, eh?
>
Depends on the angle of the dangle ;-)

--
Geoff

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:23:39 +0100, Pipl <pluscher@live.co.uk> wrote:

>>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".

>>AIUI, in hillclimbing, it come's from the dirtbike technique which is
>>supposed to load up the front for more grip. I've no idea if it works or
>>not, but most of the quick hillclimbers do it.

>That's what the MX lore says. I have a sneakng suspicion that getting
>weight forward helps compress the front a tiny bit and shorten the
>trail, and helps the bike turn in, but I've never seen any reference
>to this anywhere.

I'm not an MX-er, but the couple of times I've ridden a super-motard
style bike, the advice I was given was "try to touch the front wheel
spindle with your inside boot"....and it definitely helped. I did
play with the "Rossi dangle" a few years back (on the Hayabusa, on the
road, of all things), and I thought I noticed some positive effect.

One of the very fast club racers at ARA does it, too, so it permeated
right down to that level now
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 03/05/2022 09:28, Champ wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:23:39 +0100, Pipl <pluscher@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> At 18.30 he says that MotoGP riders put their foot out for "air-braking".
>
>>> AIUI, in hillclimbing, it come's from the dirtbike technique which is
>>> supposed to load up the front for more grip. I've no idea if it works or
>>> not, but most of the quick hillclimbers do it.
>
>> That's what the MX lore says. I have a sneakng suspicion that getting
>> weight forward helps compress the front a tiny bit and shorten the
>> trail, and helps the bike turn in, but I've never seen any reference
>> to this anywhere.
>
> I'm not an MX-er, but the couple of times I've ridden a super-motard
> style bike, the advice I was given was "try to touch the front wheel
> spindle with your inside boot"....and it definitely helped. I did

All this chatter reminds me of Veggie Dave, and his spiral fracture
while using that technique.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Tuesday, 3 May 2022 at 11:27:49 UTC+1, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 03/05/2022 09:28, Champ wrote:
>
> > I'm not an MX-er, but the couple of times I've ridden a super-motard
> > style bike, the advice I was given was "try to touch the front wheel
> > spindle with your inside boot"....and it definitely helped. I did
> All this chatter reminds me of Veggie Dave, and his spiral fracture
> while using that technique.

From memory, you have to try to get your hip forward as well so if your
heel digs in it doesn't try to 'shorten' your leg as it pushes the foot/leg
backwards (i.e, viewed from the side the foot isn't very far in front of
the body).

But it's a few years since I've ridden off road and even longer since I've
done any training.

On 04/05/2022 23:49, Pip Luscher wrote:
> YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk> Wrote in message:
> [of sticking a foot forward]
>> All this chatter reminds me of Veggie Dave, and his spiral fracture while using that technique.
>
> Yes, there are known risks with the technique (which,
> incidentally, I'm really bad at). Not sure how effective they
> would be IRL, but it's why I wear knee braces.

I don't think a knee brace would've helped in VD's case.

--
Eddie eddie@deguello.org

On 05/05/2022 11:03, Eddie wrote:
> On 04/05/2022 23:49, Pip Luscher wrote:
>> YTC#1 <bdp@ytc1-spambin.co.uk> Wrote in message:
>> [of sticking a foot forward]
>>> All this chatter reminds me of Veggie Dave, and his spiral fracture
>>> while using that technique.
>>
>> Yes, there are known risks with the technique (which,
>>   incidentally, I'm really bad at). Not sure how effective they
>>   would be IRL, but it's why I wear knee braces.
>
> I don't think a knee brace would've helped in VD's case.
>

IIRC his knee was fine, it was a nice x-ray.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/