On 14/04/2023 10:20, SteveW wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 08:36, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 14/04/2023 08:14, Chris Green wrote:
>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2023 20:42, Chris Green wrote:
>>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/04/2023 17:37, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> group, I suspect, I have been refusing regular blandishments from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> company to get a smart meter, as there seem to be no advantages
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> customer and many potential drawbacks.
>>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>>>>
>>>>> 'They' can disconnect you.
>>>>>
>>>> and they can do that with a dumb meter.
>>>>
>>> Only by breaking into your property and pulling the main fuse, they
>>> can't do it remotely.
>>>
>> My main fuse (and millions of others) is external to the house.
>
> The majority probably aren't though, as they only started fitting
> external meter boxes in recent decades.
>
> It does seem a very poor idea. Someone passing sees you loading your car
> for a holiday or one of your household puts too much on social media and
> anyone who wants to burgle you can cut your power off, leave immediately
> and come back a few days later, when the alarm batteries are flat.
>

If so then smart meters are a boon: you can download your meter's
readings while you are away, see (within a day or 2) that power is off,
and get someone to investigate.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 14/04/2023 10:23, SteveW wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 08:05, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 13/04/2023 23:42, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 13/04/2023 22:20, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2023 19:00, alan_m wrote:
>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>> I can think of several:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>>> consumption also needs a battery - who pays for that?
>>
>> We do - and then some... See below
>>
>>> Mine plugs into the mains.  Wouldn't you just throw yours away as you
>>> would still be manually reading the meters? Having no remote display
>>> with a smart meter is no different to having no remote display with dumb
>>> meter so where is the drawback?
>>
>> The drawback is paying for something we don't want, don't use, and
>> don't need. You seem to forget that the smart meter installation
>> programme across the country is costing £11 billion.
>
> But by using them to push people (through timed tariffs) to use energy
> away from the peaks, they can save more than that by not building an
> extra nuclear power station.
>
> It is the wrong solution, but I can see why they've chosen it.
>

If you are on a dumb meter the chances are you will only be offered the
more expensive tariffs whereas those on a smart meter will at least have
the opportunity to switch some activities away from the high cost per
hour periods. At this stage of the game having a dumb or smart meter
isn't going to change what is going to happen.

Is it just the power stations that need upgrading? When we all have
electric cars and electric heating can the rest of the existing
infrastructure cope?

Even being generous with COP figures for heat pumps and taking a low
efficiency figure for fuel in an ICE vehicle a average household
switching to all electric is likely to use x2 to x3 more electricity in
a year - but most of that extra will be in a 6 month period where CH is
required so perhaps the infrastructure needs to supply x5 more.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 14/04/2023 10:41, Robin wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 10:20, SteveW wrote:
>> On 14/04/2023 08:36, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 14/04/2023 08:14, Chris Green wrote:
>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 13/04/2023 20:42, Chris Green wrote:
>>>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/04/2023 17:37, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> group, I suspect, I have been refusing regular blandishments
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> company to get a smart meter, as there seem to be no advantages
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> customer and many potential drawbacks.
>>>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'They' can disconnect you.
>>>>>>
>>>>> and they can do that with a dumb meter.
>>>>>
>>>> Only by breaking into your property and pulling the main fuse, they
>>>> can't do it remotely.
>>>>
>>> My main fuse (and millions of others) is external to the house.
>>
>> The majority probably aren't though, as they only started fitting
>> external meter boxes in recent decades.
>>
>> It does seem a very poor idea. Someone passing sees you loading your
>> car for a holiday or one of your household puts too much on social
>> media and anyone who wants to burgle you can cut your power off,
>> leave immediately and come back a few days later, when the alarm
>> batteries are flat.
>>
>
> If so then smart meters are a boon: you can download your meter's
> readings while you are away, see (within a day or 2) that power is
> off, and get someone to investigate.
>
Not even that, I get an instant notification on my phone  every time the
doorbell loses its internet connection, and a clip of the last received
image

On 14/04/2023 09:28, N_Cook wrote:

> OK my really really smart meter (It told me I had an old PVR on standby
> , to avoid manually resetting its clock each month or so of sole use,
> was wasting 0.2 units of electricity a day as a vampire device).

The vampire usage of electricity has been vastly overstated. Modern
devices, by law, have to be less than 0.5W in a standby state. However
this can be a bit misleading. My PVR has a standby state and a deep
standby state and its only the deep standby that consumes the low
figure. In standby little is switched off and so the power saving is
minimal. My PVR can wake up from deep standby for a recording and then
be configured to go back into deep standby afterwards.

Friends did find that the timer on their oven was power hungry and that
was only being used as a glorified kitchen clock for 99% of the time.
They now switch off the power to the oven whilst not cooking :)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 08:14, Chris Green wrote:
> > alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 13/04/2023 20:42, Chris Green wrote:
> >>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>> On 13/04/2023 17:37, Clive Page wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> group, I suspect, I have been refusing regular blandishments from the
> >>>>> company to get a smart meter, as there seem to be no advantages to the
> >>>>> customer and many potential drawbacks.
> >>>> And the drawback are what?
> >>>>
> >>> 'They' can disconnect you.
> >>>
> >> and they can do that with a dumb meter.
> >>
> > Only by breaking into your property and pulling the main fuse, they
> > can't do it remotely.
> >
> My main fuse (and millions of others) is external to the house.

So where's the meter etc.?

Mine is all in a locked garage, I thought most people's CU, meter,
etc. were in the house.

--
Chris Green
·

On 13/04/2023 17:37, Clive Page wrote:
> I've had another communication from our current electricity supplier
> (EDF) saying that they are legally obliged to change our meters are they
> are at the end of their lifespan.  This may well be true as we've had
> the same meters for a very long time.  I think it is only the
> electricity meter is actually past its use-by date, but they want to
> change the gas meter as well "free of charge" - as if that is a bonus.
>
> I last heard from them a few months ago but at the time I said that if
> this involved disconnecting the gas and electricity for any time at all,
> which it did, then I would refuse to have it done during cold weather.
> That excuse clearly worked, but probably can't be used again.
>
> It seems that we do have a choice of smart meter or not - except that as
> far as I can gather if you opt for a non-smart meter what you get is a
> smart meter with its smart functionality disabled.  How much of this is
> disabled I haven't yet been able to find out.  Like many others on this
> group, I suspect, I have been refusing regular blandishments from the
> company to get a smart meter, as there seem to be no advantages to the
> customer and many potential drawbacks.

Others have reported that they have received re-furbished non-smart meters.

Reading a Smart Meter can be faffy. From what I remember mine don't show
the consumption by default and button pushes are needed to enable the
display.

>
> But what I don't know is whether having smart meters which is
> dumbed-down would be better or worse than having a genuine smart meter.
> Does anyone else have any experience of this?
>

well you have to read the dumb version and like I say it might be a tad
faffy.

You say it offers nothing to the consumer, but in fact you can get
detailed usage data e.g.

https://data.n3rgy.com/consumer/download-data

more ways to access the data here:-

https://www.smartme.co.uk/meter-data.html

I find my "in-home" display useful. When it goes read its usually
because my wife is baking and she now is much more aware of how much a
home baked loaf costs....

.... as for remote cut off, I think that is a long way off. You are very
unlikely to be on the same sub-station as critical infrastructure and I
am sure thats the level at which cut-offs are being managed...

Dave

On 13/04/2023 21:09, Andy Burns wrote:
> Chris Green wrote:
>
>> alan_m wrote:
>>
>>> the drawback are what?
>>>
>> 'They' can disconnect you.
>
> If you have a smart meter installed, but in dumb mode, are you sure they
> still can't remotely disconnect?  It'd only require a SIM card to allow
> that.
>
In the north not even a SIM card as our meters don't use the mobile
network...

Dave

On 14/04/2023 10:52, alan_m wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 10:23, SteveW wrote:
>> On 14/04/2023 08:05, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 13/04/2023 23:42, alan_m wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2023 22:20, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> On 13/04/2023 19:00, alan_m wrote:
>>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>>> I can think of several:
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>>> consumption also needs a battery - who pays for that?
>>>
>>> We do - and then some... See below
>>>
>>>> Mine plugs into the mains.  Wouldn't you just throw yours away as you
>>>> would still be manually reading the meters? Having no remote display
>>>> with a smart meter is no different to having no remote display with
>>>> dumb
>>>> meter so where is the drawback?
>>>
>>> The drawback is paying for something we don't want, don't use, and
>>> don't need. You seem to forget that the smart meter installation
>>> programme across the country is costing £11 billion.
>>

Yes, but what is the cost of refusal. Because of government targets the
power companies are not allowed to take "no" for an answer, and as many
have found they still nag. The staff costs for this must be huge.

>> But by using them to push people (through timed tariffs) to use energy
>> away from the peaks, they can save more than that by not building an
>> extra nuclear power station.
>>
>> It is the wrong solution, but I can see why they've chosen it.
>>
>
> If you are on a dumb meter the chances are you will only be offered the
> more expensive tariffs whereas those on a smart meter will at least have
> the opportunity to switch some activities away from the high cost per
> hour periods. At this stage of the game having a dumb or smart meter
> isn't going to change what is going to happen.
>
> Is it just the power stations that need upgrading? When we all have
> electric cars and electric heating can the rest of the existing
> infrastructure cope?
>
> Even being generous with COP figures for heat pumps and taking a low
> efficiency figure for fuel in an ICE vehicle a average household
> switching to all electric is likely to use x2 to x3 more electricity in
> a year - but most of that extra will be in a 6 month period where CH is
> required so perhaps the infrastructure needs to supply x5 more.
>

On 13/04/2023 21:12, Andy Burns wrote:
> All UK domestic electricity supplies are billed for real power, not
> apparent power (a smart meter can probably measure the latter, but it
> isn't used for billing)

....isn't used for billing yet ?

--
Mike Clarke

David Wade wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> If you have a smart meter installed, but in dumb mode, are you sure
>> they still can't remotely disconnect?  It'd only require a SIM card to
>> allow that.
>
> In the north not even a SIM card as our meters don't use the mobile
> network...

I keep forgetting it's gr^H^Harqiva oop north.

On 14/04/2023 11:13, Chris Green wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 14/04/2023 08:14, Chris Green wrote:
>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2023 20:42, Chris Green wrote:
>>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/04/2023 17:37, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> group, I suspect, I have been refusing regular blandishments from the
>>>>>>> company to get a smart meter, as there seem to be no advantages to the
>>>>>>> customer and many potential drawbacks.
>>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>>>>
>>>>> 'They' can disconnect you.
>>>>>
>>>> and they can do that with a dumb meter.
>>>>
>>> Only by breaking into your property and pulling the main fuse, they
>>> can't do it remotely.
>>>
>> My main fuse (and millions of others) is external to the house.
> So where's the meter etc.?

In the same box, on an outside wall. Surely you've noticed homes with
such cabinets !

Here's a picture (not of mine, but a similar set up)

<https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwwoNUFUM-xjHcxI1I_vo_iq0aFkor9iZSVAM7ljPk6OsEjGVRZ3FUqkJ86yzOX4GZuL8&usqp=CAU>

Mike Clarke wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> All UK domestic electricity supplies are billed for real power, not
>> apparent power (a smart meter can probably measure the latter, but it
>> isn't used for billing)
>
> ...isn't used for billing yet ?

Any suggestion that's going to change? Other than it seems like a bee
in BigClive's bonnet and some Dutch university having their 5 minutes of
fame regarding smart meters using Rogowski coils which no UK meters use.

On 14/04/2023 10:23, SteveW wrote:
> But by using them to push people (through timed tariffs) to use energy
> away from the peaks, they can save more than that by not building an
> extra nuclear power station.
>
> It is the wrong solution, but I can see why they've chosen it.
Its just another desperate attempt to 'make renewable energy work'

The cost of installing all those smart meters would easily have built
another nuclear power station

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:59:21 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Clive Page wrote:
>
>> It's still not clear whether smart meters are truly portable between
>> power companies
>
>if it's SMETS2, then the meter isn't read by any your supplier, it's
>read by DCC, from where the data can be passed to any supplier, to you,
>or (with your permission) to a 3rd party.
>

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/smart-meter-transition-and-data-communications-company-dcc

"Energy suppliers are required to take all reasonable steps to rollout
smart meters to all of their domestic and small business customers by
the end of December 2021.

From January 2022 all gas and electricity suppliers will have binding
annual installation targets to roll out smart and advanced meters to
their remaining non-smart customers by the end of 2025.

Suppliers must publish their annual targets on their websites. Each
year the annual targets are re-set based on the proportion of a
supplier�s customer base without a smart or advanced meter."

I wonder how long I can hold out.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

AnthonyL wrote:

> <https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/smart-meter-transition-and-data-communications-company-dcc>
>
> "Energy suppliers are required to take all reasonable steps to rollout
> smart meters to all of their domestic and small business customers by
> the end of December 2021.
>
> From January 2022 all gas and electricity suppliers will have binding
> annual installation targets to roll out smart and advanced meters to
> their remaining non-smart customers by the end of 2025.
>
> Suppliers must publish their annual targets on their websites. Each
> year the annual targets are re-set based on the proportion of a
> supplier’s customer base without a smart or advanced meter."

Yes, the suppliers are obliged to "push" you to have one, but you're not
obliged to accept one

> I wonder how long I can hold out.

I suspect OFGEM will soon change it so you have to have one.

On 13/04/2023 22:15, SteveW wrote:
> On 13/04/2023 22:01, Animal wrote:
>> On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 17:37:25 UTC+1, Clive Page wrote:

> If the meter calibration period has expired, they can force a change.

I believe that the utility companies have a legal obligation to offer
you a new meter if yours is out of certification or calibration, but you
do not have a legal obligation to accept it. I don't know if they can
force a change, by using a warrant to gain entry into your property to
complete the change in a similar way to change ordinary meters to
prepayment ones.

The argument usually used by the utility company is that if the charge
seems too much because the meter is reading too high, they won't
entertain a refund because they offered you a newly certificated meter,
which you refused. What they never say, of course, is that the reverse
is also true, and that a meter could just as well be reading too low (in
fact that's much more likely as the gears get old and perhaps sticky).

--

Jeff

I can only confirm what you say. Although there are still refurbished older
type meters about, EDF only fit the electronic kind as used by the smart
meter part. I did initially have the new one fail after a year, right on
Christmas day, leving me with no economy 7, but after that all has been well
and it seems to be working so far. Others have said that theirs loses the
connection to the system, and as this one supposes must either be over the
mains cable or via a mobile connection, it could I imagine happen if your
meter is in an underground spot.
I like the fact that there is no more meter reading to be done and bills
only get taken on real readings not the wildly inaccurate estimations EDF
used before. Strange how those always ended up with them holding my money
and not the other way around.
I like the talking customer display and the way it changes tariff for
economy 7. I have no gas here, so cannot comment on that.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Clive Page" <usenet@page2.eu> wrote in message
news:k9qpe0Fsb7bU2@mid.individual.net...
> I've had another communication from our current electricity supplier (EDF)
> saying that they are legally obliged to change our meters are they are at
> the end of their lifespan. This may well be true as we've had the same
> meters for a very long time. I think it is only the electricity meter is
> actually past its use-by date, but they want to change the gas meter as
> well "free of charge" - as if that is a bonus.
>
> I last heard from them a few months ago but at the time I said that if
> this involved disconnecting the gas and electricity for any time at all,
> which it did, then I would refuse to have it done during cold weather.
> That excuse clearly worked, but probably can't be used again.
>
> It seems that we do have a choice of smart meter or not - except that as
> far as I can gather if you opt for a non-smart meter what you get is a
> smart meter with its smart functionality disabled. How much of this is
> disabled I haven't yet been able to find out. Like many others on this
> group, I suspect, I have been refusing regular blandishments from the
> company to get a smart meter, as there seem to be no advantages to the
> customer and many potential drawbacks.
>
> But what I don't know is whether having smart meters which is dumbed-down
> would be better or worse than having a genuine smart meter. Does anyone
> else have any experience of this?
>
> --
> Clive Page

On 14/04/2023 08:42, alan_m wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 08:05, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 13/04/2023 23:42, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 13/04/2023 22:20, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2023 19:00, alan_m wrote:
>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>> I can think of several:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>>> consumption also needs a battery - who pays for that?
>>
>> We do - and then some... See below
>>
>>> Mine plugs into the mains.  Wouldn't you just throw yours away as you
>>> would still be manually reading the meters? Having no remote display
>>> with a smart meter is no different to having no remote display with dumb
>>> meter so where is the drawback?
>>
>> The drawback is paying for something we don't want, don't use, and don't
>> need. You seem to forget that the smart meter installation programme
>> across the country is costing £11 billion. Well, that's the original
>> figure; does anyone know what the figure is so far, and what the final
>> figure will be? You can now add to that the cost of replacing all the
>> meters in south and central England that use 3G for their
>> communications. Do you really think that smart meters and their
>> installation costs grow on trees, or that the utility companies will pay
>> for it? Let's assume there are 25 million properties in the UK. The
>> approximate cost to each is £440 (£11 billion / 25 million). So the
>> "smart meter" programme is costing every household £440. I've no
>> objection to those who want a smart meter paying £440 to have one
>> installed; I just don't want to pay it. The smart meter programme is
>> almost entirely something for the benefit of the utility companies.
>>
>
> So, don't have a smart meter and the utility company will charge you less.

All of us are paying for it whether we have it or not.

> Long before smart meters there was a meter replacement scheme with a
> target of 10 years.
>
> I agree that we are paying a lot but smart meters are not going away and
> there is currently no £440 cost saving for rejecting one.

Sadly, I agree with you! We are stuck into this extensive legislation
forcing smart meters on everybody. Unfortunately, no government is going
to say "enough is enough - we've got to stop throwing good money after
bad". But that's not surprising as its *our* money, not theirs.

> The choice for the OP is to have a smart or dumb meter as a replacement.

It might be possible to get an old meter; it just depends on whether or
not any (re)certificated ones are available.

--

Jeff

On 14/04/2023 12:46, Jeff Layman wrote:
> Unfortunately, no government is going to say "enough is enough - we've
> got to stop throwing good money after bad"

Its amazing what a few by-election defeats will do.

--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 14/04/2023 10:23, SteveW wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 08:05, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 13/04/2023 23:42, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 13/04/2023 22:20, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2023 19:00, alan_m wrote:
>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>> I can think of several:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>>> consumption also needs a battery - who pays for that?
>>
>> We do - and then some... See below
>>
>>> Mine plugs into the mains.  Wouldn't you just throw yours away as you
>>> would still be manually reading the meters? Having no remote display
>>> with a smart meter is no different to having no remote display with dumb
>>> meter so where is the drawback?
>>
>> The drawback is paying for something we don't want, don't use, and don't
>> need. You seem to forget that the smart meter installation programme
>> across the country is costing £11 billion.
>
> But by using them to push people (through timed tariffs) to use energy
> away from the peaks, they can save more than that by not building an
> extra nuclear power station.

I doubt it will make much difference to what they could get with Economy
7 or whatever it is called. Apart from running washing machines or
dishwashers at night there's not much of a saving to be made. Of course,
it might temp you to change from gas heating to electricity. Not only is
electricity much more expensive than gas (at present), but the cost
during the day would be very high. And, as I mentioned at the start, how
much difference would this make to currently using Economy 7 with
storage heaters?

How much smart meters are going to "save" is reducing every time someone
looks at the figures. It used to be hundreds of pounds for every
consumer. Now, you might like to look at, for example,
<https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/energy-smart-meter-money-saving/>.
Quote:

"Smart Energy GB have calculated that, collectively, the savings could
be as much as £560 million if everyone in Britain changed to a smart meter.

This savings figures was further broken down regionally as part of their
summer campaign to promote the benefits of upgrading to a smart meter,
with the following results:

Londoners could save up to £69.6 million a year if each household
(583,083 homes) had a smart meter installed
Scotland could save as much as £51.1 million a year if each
household (544,719 homes) had a smart meter installed
West Midlands households could save as much as £49.1 million a year
if each household (585,694 homes) had a smart meter installed

The above numbers were calculated by Smart Energy GB based on a 2%
average energy consumption saving per household per year, which equates
to £21.17 when calculated in line with fuel prices published by the
Energy Saving Trust in March 2018. This is then multiplied by the number
of households per region, which was then rounded."

I can't get my head round the figures. The individual areas "could save"
about £80 - 120 per household, but the last paragraph puts the saving at
only £21?!

> It is the wrong solution, but I can see why they've chosen it.

I don't disagree, but it just goes to show what incompetents we have
when it comes to energy needs in this country, if the wrong solution is
better than doing nothing.

--

Jeff

On 14/04/2023 10:41, Robin wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 10:20, SteveW wrote:
>> On 14/04/2023 08:36, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 14/04/2023 08:14, Chris Green wrote:
>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 13/04/2023 20:42, Chris Green wrote:
>>>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/04/2023 17:37, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> group, I suspect, I have been refusing regular blandishments
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> company to get a smart meter, as there seem to be no advantages
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> customer and many potential drawbacks.
>>>>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'They' can disconnect you.
>>>>>>
>>>>> and they can do that with a dumb meter.
>>>>>
>>>> Only by breaking into your property and pulling the main fuse, they
>>>> can't do it remotely.
>>>>
>>> My main fuse (and millions of others) is external to the house.
>>
>> The majority probably aren't though, as they only started fitting
>> external meter boxes in recent decades.
>>
>> It does seem a very poor idea. Someone passing sees you loading your
>> car for a holiday or one of your household puts too much on social
>> media and anyone who wants to burgle you can cut your power off, leave
>> immediately and come back a few days later, when the alarm batteries
>> are flat.
>>
>
> If so then smart meters are a boon: you can download your meter's
> readings while you are away, see (within a day or 2) that power is off,
> and get someone to investigate.

If I'm on holiday, I'm not checking my smart meter ... I might not even
have my phone turned on.

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:05:00 +1000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

> On 13/04/2023 23:42, alan_m wrote:
>> On 13/04/2023 22:20, Clive Page wrote:
>>> On 13/04/2023 19:00, alan_m wrote:
>>>> And the drawback are what?
>>> I can think of several:
>
> (snip)
>
>>> consumption also needs a battery - who pays for that?
>
> We do - and then some... See below
>
>> Mine plugs into the mains. Wouldn't you just throw yours away as you
>> would still be manually reading the meters? Having no remote display
>> with a smart meter is no different to having no remote display with dumb
>> meter so where is the drawback?
>
> The drawback is paying for something we don't want, don't use, and don't
> need. You seem to forget that the smart meter installation programme
> across the country is costing £11 billion. Well, that's the original
> figure; does anyone know what the figure is so far, and what the final
> figure will be? You can now add to that the cost of replacing all the
> meters in south and central England that use 3G for their
> communications. Do you really think that smart meters and their
> installation costs grow on trees, or that the utility companies will pay
> for it? Let's assume there are 25 million properties in the UK.

> The approximate cost to each is £440

Don't believe that given the number of them needed.

> (£11 billion / 25 million). So the "smart meter" programme is costing
> every household £440. I've no objection to those who want a smart meter
> paying £440 to have one installed;

You are ignoring the cost of a monkey showing up
periodically to read your stupid meter.

> I just don't want to pay it.

You do pay for a monkey showing up
periodically to read your stupid meter.

> The smart meter programme is almost entirely something for the benefit
> of the utility companies.

Bullshit.

On 14/04/2023 11:07, alan_m wrote:
> On 14/04/2023 09:28, N_Cook wrote:
>
>> OK my really really smart meter (It told me I had an old PVR on
>> standby , to avoid manually resetting its clock each month or so of
>> sole use, was wasting 0.2 units of electricity a day as a vampire
>> device).
>
> The vampire usage of electricity has been vastly overstated. Modern
> devices, by law, have to be less than 0.5W in a standby state.  However
> this can be a bit misleading. My PVR has a standby state and a deep
> standby state and its only the deep standby that consumes the low
> figure. In standby little is switched off and so the power saving is
> minimal. My PVR can wake up from deep standby for a recording and then
> be configured to go back into deep standby afterwards.

The trouble with deep standby is the start-up time, which puts many
people off using it. I often put the TV on in the kitchen, while I am
doing things and then, when I am finished, move into the living-room and
carry on watching. Over a minute and often nearly two, missing from the
programme, as I start the living-room box up is just too much.

On 14/04/2023 12:33, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 13/04/2023 22:15, SteveW wrote:
>> On 13/04/2023 22:01, Animal wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 17:37:25 UTC+1, Clive Page wrote:
>
>> If the meter calibration period has expired, they can force a change.
>
> I believe that the utility companies have a legal obligation to offer
> you a new meter if yours is out of certification or calibration, but you
> do not have a legal obligation to accept it. I don't know if they can
> force a change, by using a warrant to gain entry into your property to
> complete the change in a similar way to change ordinary meters to
> prepayment ones.
>
> The argument usually used by the utility company is that if the charge
> seems too much because the meter is reading too high, they won't
> entertain a refund because they offered you a newly certificated meter,
> which you refused. What they never say, of course, is that the reverse
> is also true, and that a meter could just as well be reading too low (in
> fact that's much more likely as the gears get old and perhaps sticky).

Many people with dumb electricity meters have electronic ones these
days. They've been around so long that we were on our third before we
switched to smart meters.

On 14-Apr-23 12:32, Andy Burns wrote:
> AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> <https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/smart-meter-transition-and-data-communications-company-dcc>
>>
>> "Energy suppliers are required to take all reasonable steps to rollout
>> smart meters to all of their domestic and small business customers by
>> the end of December 2021.
>>
>>  From January 2022 all gas and electricity suppliers will have binding
>> annual installation targets to roll out smart and advanced meters to
>> their remaining non-smart customers by the end of 2025.
>>
>> Suppliers must publish their annual targets on their websites. Each
>> year the annual targets are re-set based on the proportion of a
>> supplier’s customer base without a smart or advanced meter."
>
> Yes, the suppliers are obliged to "push" you to have one, but you're not
> obliged to accept one

Which is typical government bullshit.
Instruct a body that they _must_ do something, but refuse to given them
any authority get it done.

I am not suggesting that energy suppliers should have the power to
compel their customers, but the gross dishonesty involved is galling.

--
Sam Plusnet