We see quite a few messages here about poor service, so I thought I'd
post one concerning exceptionally good service.

Almost 9 years ago I installed a ceiling fan in our new conservatory.
The fan was pretty expensive, being a remote-controlled DC fan, 6-speed
and reversible, with a LED light. It has been used extensively over the
years. A week ago I found it would barely turn, at only one speed, and
no reverse. The light worked. I emailed the company explaining the
problem (<www.fantasiaceilingfans.com>), and a couple of days later got
a reply suggesting that the remote receiver control was faulty. The
reply stated the all-in cost of a replacement (including VAT and P&P),
and a pdf of instructions on how to fit it. I phoned in the order
yesterday at 3pm, and the remote control receiver, together with a new
remote transmitter, arrived at 11am this morning by 1st class post.

--

Jeff

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 11:32:56 +0100
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> We see quite a few messages here about poor service, so I thought I'd
> post one concerning exceptionally good service.
>
> Almost 9 years ago I installed a ceiling fan in our new conservatory.
> The fan was pretty expensive, being a remote-controlled DC fan,
> 6-speed and reversible, with a LED light. It has been used
> extensively over the years. A week ago I found it would barely turn,
> at only one speed, and no reverse. The light worked. I emailed the
> company explaining the problem (<www.fantasiaceilingfans.com>), and a
> couple of days later got a reply suggesting that the remote receiver
> control was faulty. The reply stated the all-in cost of a replacement
> (including VAT and P&P), and a pdf of instructions on how to fit it.
> I phoned in the order yesterday at 3pm, and the remote control
> receiver, together with a new remote transmitter, arrived at 11am
> this morning by 1st class post.
>

Let us know if that was in fact the problem!

--
Davey.

On 15/04/2023 13:19, Davey wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 11:32:56 +0100
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> We see quite a few messages here about poor service, so I thought I'd
>> post one concerning exceptionally good service.
>>
>> Almost 9 years ago I installed a ceiling fan in our new conservatory.
>> The fan was pretty expensive, being a remote-controlled DC fan,
>> 6-speed and reversible, with a LED light. It has been used
>> extensively over the years. A week ago I found it would barely turn,
>> at only one speed, and no reverse. The light worked. I emailed the
>> company explaining the problem (<www.fantasiaceilingfans.com>), and a
>> couple of days later got a reply suggesting that the remote receiver
>> control was faulty. The reply stated the all-in cost of a replacement
>> (including VAT and P&P), and a pdf of instructions on how to fit it.
>> I phoned in the order yesterday at 3pm, and the remote control
>> receiver, together with a new remote transmitter, arrived at 11am
>> this morning by 1st class post.
>>
>
> Let us know if that was in fact the problem!

Unfortunately it wasn't. So it has to be the motor, and that's where it
gets really weird. I took the fan down again to see if the motor had any
information. It did:

Rhine Electronic Co Ltd
Model No. N-125S
120Vac 60Hz 0.65A 38W
Conforms to ANSI/UL STD 507
Certified to CSA C22.2 No 113

I don't understand this. That's the spec for an American A/C motor, yet
this is supposed to be a DC motor. In fact, the remote control receiver has:

Model: RH788R
DC MOTOR CEILING FAN ONLY
Ceiling fan speed control
Input AC 220V-240V/50Hz
LIGHT: 300 Watts max Or 300 VA
DC MOTOR : 35 Watts MAX
Made in Taiwan

Note that Rhine Electronic Co Ltd are in Taiwan. The motor appears to be
the one on <http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html>,
but the number is slightly different (125NS instead of N-125S).

I emailed the fan company again, but have no idea how to proceed at this
stage. Looks like I'll just have to write off the replacement remote and
go for a new fan. :-(

--

Jeff

On 18/04/2023 10:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 15/04/2023 13:19, Davey wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 11:32:56 +0100
>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> We see quite a few messages here about poor service, so I thought I'd
>>> post one concerning exceptionally good service.
>>>
>>> Almost 9 years ago I installed a ceiling fan in our new conservatory.
>>> The fan was pretty expensive, being a remote-controlled DC fan,
>>> 6-speed and reversible, with a LED light. It has been used
>>> extensively over the years. A week ago I found it would barely turn,
>>> at only one speed, and no reverse. The light worked. I emailed the
>>> company explaining the problem (<www.fantasiaceilingfans.com>), and a
>>> couple of days later got a reply suggesting that the remote receiver
>>> control was faulty. The reply stated the all-in cost of a replacement
>>> (including VAT and P&P), and a pdf of instructions on how to fit it.
>>> I phoned in the order yesterday at 3pm, and the remote control
>>> receiver, together with a new remote transmitter, arrived at 11am
>>> this morning by 1st class post.
>>>
>>
>> Let us know if that was in fact the problem!
>
> Unfortunately it wasn't. So it has to be the motor, and that's where it
> gets really weird. I took the fan down again to see if the motor had any
> information. It did:
>
> Rhine Electronic Co Ltd
> Model No. N-125S
> 120Vac 60Hz 0.65A 38W
> Conforms to ANSI/UL STD 507
> Certified to CSA C22.2 No 113
>
> I don't understand this. That's the spec for an American A/C motor, yet
> this is supposed to be a DC motor. In fact, the remote control receiver
> has:
>
> Model: RH788R
> DC MOTOR CEILING FAN ONLY
> Ceiling fan speed control
> Input AC 220V-240V/50Hz
> LIGHT: 300 Watts max Or 300 VA
> DC MOTOR : 35 Watts MAX
> Made in Taiwan
>
Universal motors are AC OR DC.
Work with either.

> Note that Rhine Electronic Co Ltd are in Taiwan. The motor appears to be
> the one on <http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html>,
> but the number is slightly different (125NS instead of N-125S).
>
> I emailed the fan company again, but have no idea how to proceed at this
> stage. Looks like I'll just have to write off the replacement remote and
> go for a new fan. :-(
>

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 18/04/2023 12:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/04/2023 10:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 15/04/2023 13:19, Davey wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 11:32:56 +0100
>>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We see quite a few messages here about poor service, so I thought I'd
>>>> post one concerning exceptionally good service.
>>>>
>>>> Almost 9 years ago I installed a ceiling fan in our new conservatory.
>>>> The fan was pretty expensive, being a remote-controlled DC fan,
>>>> 6-speed and reversible, with a LED light. It has been used
>>>> extensively over the years. A week ago I found it would barely turn,
>>>> at only one speed, and no reverse. The light worked. I emailed the
>>>> company explaining the problem (<www.fantasiaceilingfans.com>), and a
>>>> couple of days later got a reply suggesting that the remote receiver
>>>> control was faulty. The reply stated the all-in cost of a replacement
>>>> (including VAT and P&P), and a pdf of instructions on how to fit it.
>>>> I phoned in the order yesterday at 3pm, and the remote control
>>>> receiver, together with a new remote transmitter, arrived at 11am
>>>> this morning by 1st class post.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Let us know if that was in fact the problem!
>>
>> Unfortunately it wasn't. So it has to be the motor, and that's where it
>> gets really weird. I took the fan down again to see if the motor had any
>> information. It did:
>>
>> Rhine Electronic Co Ltd
>> Model No. N-125S
>> 120Vac 60Hz 0.65A 38W
>> Conforms to ANSI/UL STD 507
>> Certified to CSA C22.2 No 113
>>
>> I don't understand this. That's the spec for an American A/C motor, yet
>> this is supposed to be a DC motor. In fact, the remote control receiver
>> has:
>>
>> Model: RH788R
>> DC MOTOR CEILING FAN ONLY
>> Ceiling fan speed control
>> Input AC 220V-240V/50Hz
>> LIGHT: 300 Watts max Or 300 VA
>> DC MOTOR : 35 Watts MAX
>> Made in Taiwan
>>
> Universal motors are AC OR DC.
> Work with either.

This is a brushless DC motor
(<http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html> which appears
identical to mine). The info here seems to apply, especially the second
paragraph as the fan definitely often starts in reverse and then seems
to work out it needs to go the correct way (when it is working
properly!)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Controller_implementations>

The controller seems very complex. I opened it and a couple of photos
are here:
Receiver: <https://ibb.co/YW49XXW>
Receiver additional board <https://ibb.co/mJRcvkd>

The board is glued down so I can't see under it. There are 8 leads from
the long connector at the bottom of the picture to the motor, and a
couple of others from the mini socket next to the antenna which might go
to the led light. I assume that the eight leads are involved in not only
feeding power, but also measuring back emf.

>> Note that Rhine Electronic Co Ltd are in Taiwan. The motor appears to be
>> the one on <http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html>,
>> but the number is slightly different (125NS instead of N-125S).
>>
>> I emailed the fan company again, but have no idea how to proceed at this
>> stage. Looks like I'll just have to write off the replacement remote and
>> go for a new fan. :-(

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> This is a brushless DC motor
> (<http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html> which appears
> identical to mine). The info here seems to apply, especially the second
> paragraph as the fan definitely often starts in reverse and then seems
> to work out it needs to go the correct way (when it is working
> properly!)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Controller_implementations>
>
>
> The controller seems very complex. I opened it and a couple of photos
> are here:
> Receiver: <https://ibb.co/YW49XXW>

At a guess, clockwise from the bottom:

Mains input / voltage conversion
MOSFETs
SMPSU for logic
Microcontroller for control

> Receiver additional board <https://ibb.co/mJRcvkd>

That looks like the RF receiver

> The board is glued down so I can't see under it. There are 8 leads from
> the long connector at the bottom of the picture to the motor, and a
> couple of others from the mini socket next to the antenna which might go
> to the led light. I assume that the eight leads are involved in not only
> feeding power, but also measuring back emf.

If it is BLDC I'd expect three phase wires and three sense wires. Does that
connector also supply mains?

I suppose if it's not BLDC they could be synthesising ~120V to drive the US
motor? I can't clearly see what's under the heatsink but the labels could
be TR for triacs?

Theo

On 18/04/2023 18:49, Theo wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> This is a brushless DC motor
>> (<http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html> which appears
>> identical to mine). The info here seems to apply, especially the second
>> paragraph as the fan definitely often starts in reverse and then seems
>> to work out it needs to go the correct way (when it is working
>> properly!)
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Controller_implementations>
>>
>>
>> The controller seems very complex. I opened it and a couple of photos
>> are here:
>> Receiver: <https://ibb.co/YW49XXW>
>
> At a guess, clockwise from the bottom:
>
> Mains input / voltage conversion
> MOSFETs
> SMPSU for logic
> Microcontroller for control

I think everything by and under the metal screen/heatsink is related to
the SMPS. "TR4" is riveted to the metal, and there is a U2K8 bridge
rectifier, coil/transformer, and two 275V AC X2 class capacitors.There
are also a couple of 817C optocouplers and a 6-pin IC with obscured
markings. Near the other transformer is an LNK364DN AC to DC switching
converter.

By and "under" the RF receiver board there's a 93C46WP 3-Wire Serial
EEPROM, and what appears to be a 2904 dual op-amp. There's also a
custom(?) 32-pin QIL chip.

I didn't see any mosfets, but may have missed them. Which components do
you think they were?

>> Receiver additional board <https://ibb.co/mJRcvkd>
>
> That looks like the RF receiver

It is. The IC is a PT4302-X ultra-low power OOK/ASK superheterodyne
receiver.

>> The board is glued down so I can't see under it. There are 8 leads from
>> the long connector at the bottom of the picture to the motor, and a
>> couple of others from the mini socket next to the antenna which might go
>> to the led light. I assume that the eight leads are involved in not only
>> feeding power, but also measuring back emf.
>
> If it is BLDC I'd expect three phase wires and three sense wires. Does that
> connector also supply mains?

I would think so, but it's hidden. I've put the fan back up just to get
it out of the way.

> I suppose if it's not BLDC they could be synthesising ~120V to drive the US
> motor? I can't clearly see what's under the heatsink but the labels could
> be TR for triacs?

Do A/C motors "hunt" until they find the correct rotation direction and
speed?

--

Jeff

On 19/04/2023 11:08, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 18/04/2023 18:49, Theo wrote:
>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> This is a brushless DC motor
>>> (<http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html> which appears
>>> identical to mine). The info here seems to apply, especially the second
>>> paragraph as the fan definitely often starts in reverse and then seems
>>> to work out it needs to go the correct way (when it is working
>>> properly!)
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Controller_implementations>
>>>
>>>
>>> The controller seems very complex. I opened it and a couple of photos
>>> are here:
>>> Receiver: <https://ibb.co/YW49XXW>
>>
>> At a guess, clockwise from the bottom:
>>
>> Mains input / voltage conversion
>> MOSFETs
>> SMPSU for logic
>> Microcontroller for control
>
> I think everything by and under the metal screen/heatsink is related to
> the SMPS. "TR4" is riveted to the metal, and there is a U2K8 bridge
> rectifier, coil/transformer, and two 275V AC X2 class capacitors.There
> are also a couple of 817C optocouplers and a 6-pin IC with obscured
> markings. Near the other transformer is an LNK364DN AC to DC switching
> converter.
>
> By and "under" the RF receiver board there's a 93C46WP 3-Wire Serial
> EEPROM, and what appears to be a 2904 dual op-amp. There's also a
> custom(?) 32-pin QIL chip.
>
> I didn't see any mosfets, but may have missed them. Which components do
> you think they were?
>
>>> Receiver additional board <https://ibb.co/mJRcvkd>
>>
>> That looks like the RF receiver
>
> It is. The IC is a PT4302-X ultra-low power OOK/ASK superheterodyne
> receiver.
>
>>> The board is glued down so I can't see under it. There are 8 leads from
>>> the long connector at the bottom of the picture to the motor, and a
>>> couple of others from the mini socket next to the antenna which might go
>>> to the led light. I assume that the eight leads are involved in not only
>>> feeding power, but also measuring back emf.
>>
>> If it is BLDC I'd expect three phase wires and three sense wires.
>> Does that
>> connector also supply mains?
>
> I would think so, but it's hidden. I've put the fan back up just to get
> it out of the way.
>
>> I suppose if it's not BLDC they could be synthesising ~120V to drive
>> the US
>> motor?  I can't clearly see what's under the heatsink but the labels
>> could
>> be TR for triacs?
>
> Do A/C motors "hunt" until they find the correct rotation direction and
> speed?
>
Depends on what type they are.

Universal motors dont have a correct speed.
BLDC motors without sensors will use the coils to sense everything and
will do a little kick to find out where they are If they have sensors
they wont.

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 19/04/2023 11:08, Jeff Layman wrote:
> >
> > I think everything by and under the metal screen/heatsink is related to
> > the SMPS. "TR4" is riveted to the metal, and there is a U2K8 bridge
> > rectifier, coil/transformer, and two 275V AC X2 class capacitors.There
> > are also a couple of 817C optocouplers and a 6-pin IC with obscured
> > markings. Near the other transformer is an LNK364DN AC to DC switching
> > converter.
> >
> > By and "under" the RF receiver board there's a 93C46WP 3-Wire Serial
> > EEPROM, and what appears to be a 2904 dual op-amp. There's also a
> > custom(?) 32-pin QIL chip.
> >
> > I didn't see any mosfets, but may have missed them. Which components do
> > you think they were?

I was thinking about the TRs. If it was 3 phase BLDC you'd need 6
MOSFETs. I can't see how many are on that heatsink.
(although I suppose there could be 3 dual-MOSFET packages)

It could also use switching MOSFET(s) for the SMPSU - only one would be
needed for that, although there may also be a TO220 style diode.

> > Do A/C motors "hunt" until they find the correct rotation direction and
> > speed?
> >
> Depends on what type they are.
>
> Universal motors dont have a correct speed.
> BLDC motors without sensors will use the coils to sense everything and
> will do a little kick to find out where they are If they have sensors
> they wont.

If there's hall sensors it may rely on detecting the particular waveform to
know which direction it's turning, which it can't do when static. So a
little kick may be needed so it knows what the rotor is doing.

Theo

On 19/04/2023 11:08, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 18/04/2023 18:49, Theo wrote:
>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> This is a brushless DC motor
>>> (<http://www.rhine-e.com.tw/CeilingFan/FAN_BLDC/list.html> which appears
>>> identical to mine). The info here seems to apply, especially the second
>>> paragraph as the fan definitely often starts in reverse and then seems
>>> to work out it needs to go the correct way (when it is working
>>> properly!)
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Controller_implementations>
>>>
>>>
>>> The controller seems very complex. I opened it and a couple of photos
>>> are here:
>>> Receiver: <https://ibb.co/YW49XXW>
>>
>> At a guess, clockwise from the bottom:
>>
>> Mains input / voltage conversion
>> MOSFETs
>> SMPSU for logic
>> Microcontroller for control
>
> I think everything by and under the metal screen/heatsink is related to
> the SMPS. "TR4" is riveted to the metal, and there is a U2K8 bridge
> rectifier, coil/transformer, and two 275V AC X2 class capacitors.There
> are also a couple of 817C optocouplers and a 6-pin IC with obscured
> markings. Near the other transformer is an LNK364DN AC to DC switching
> converter.
>
> By and "under" the RF receiver board there's a 93C46WP 3-Wire Serial
> EEPROM, and what appears to be a 2904 dual op-amp. There's also a
> custom(?) 32-pin QIL chip.
>
> I didn't see any mosfets, but may have missed them. Which components do
> you think they were?
>
>>> Receiver additional board <https://ibb.co/mJRcvkd>
>>
>> That looks like the RF receiver
>
> It is. The IC is a PT4302-X ultra-low power OOK/ASK superheterodyne
> receiver.
>
>>> The board is glued down so I can't see under it. There are 8 leads from
>>> the long connector at the bottom of the picture to the motor, and a
>>> couple of others from the mini socket next to the antenna which might go
>>> to the led light. I assume that the eight leads are involved in not only
>>> feeding power, but also measuring back emf.
>>
>> If it is BLDC I'd expect three phase wires and three sense wires.
>> Does that
>> connector also supply mains?
>
> I would think so, but it's hidden. I've put the fan back up just to get
> it out of the way.
>
>> I suppose if it's not BLDC they could be synthesising ~120V to drive
>> the US
>> motor?  I can't clearly see what's under the heatsink but the labels
>> could
>> be TR for triacs?
>
> Do A/C motors "hunt" until they find the correct rotation direction and
> speed?

I wouldn't have thought so but is perhaps possible. There are some BlDC
motors that use back-emf and/or current sense to work out position and
direction as per your wiki article. The controller won't know the
starting position and may have to make a guess. It shouldn't run in
reverse for more than a fraction of a turn?

Many implementations use a micro to do all the control, sensing (onboard
ADC) and drive (via a MOSFET).

On 19/04/2023 13:24, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 19/04/2023 11:08, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>
>>> I think everything by and under the metal screen/heatsink is related to
>>> the SMPS. "TR4" is riveted to the metal, and there is a U2K8 bridge
>>> rectifier, coil/transformer, and two 275V AC X2 class capacitors.There
>>> are also a couple of 817C optocouplers and a 6-pin IC with obscured
>>> markings. Near the other transformer is an LNK364DN AC to DC switching
>>> converter.
>>>
>>> By and "under" the RF receiver board there's a 93C46WP 3-Wire Serial
>>> EEPROM, and what appears to be a 2904 dual op-amp. There's also a
>>> custom(?) 32-pin QIL chip.
>>>
>>> I didn't see any mosfets, but may have missed them. Which components do
>>> you think they were?
>
> I was thinking about the TRs. If it was 3 phase BLDC you'd need 6
> MOSFETs. I can't see how many are on that heatsink.
> (although I suppose there could be 3 dual-MOSFET packages)
>
> It could also use switching MOSFET(s) for the SMPSU - only one would be
> needed for that, although there may also be a TO220 style diode.
>
>>> Do A/C motors "hunt" until they find the correct rotation direction and
>>> speed?
>>>
>> Depends on what type they are.
>>
>> Universal motors dont have a correct speed.
>> BLDC motors without sensors will use the coils to sense everything and
>> will do a little kick to find out where they are If they have sensors
>> they wont.
>
> If there's hall sensors it may rely on detecting the particular waveform to
> know which direction it's turning, which it can't do when static. So a
> little kick may be needed so it knows what the rotor is doing.
>
No point in halls - don't net you anything sensorless can do. The
sensored ones normally use optical sensors I think, but its years since
I had truck with one

> Theo

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

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