On 7/14/2023 3:02 AM, David P wrote:
> Needed: Car experts to fend off grid disaster
> By David Ferris, 06/12/2023, E & E News
>
> One way to understand the kind of problems that can arise between an electric car and the electric grid is to consider the little-known history of a different appliance: the air conditioner. That machine first arrived on the radar of Eto, the Lawrence Berkeley scientist, in 2007, when his contacts at electric utilities reported something strange. “They were concerned about what they’d seen on their power systems,” he said.
>
> In 2010, the Dept of Energy, aided by NERC, launched an inquiry.
....snip...
> https://www.eenews.net/articles/needed-car-experts-to-fend-off-grid-disaster/

"said John Taggart, co-founder of WeaveGrid, a charging-software company
that works with both carmakers and utilities." Well, actually, a company that makes
money for itself, at the expense of others.

Well, that's just it. Some people feel they will profit off the
inability of the grid to function properly, by filling it with
software we don't need.

This is just endangering the grid, by adding more malware
injection points.

The grid should work the way it has always worked -- count the
number of loads, fit enough generators to support those loads.

The fact those same idiots, used Siemens control systems to
run substations and power plants and other things, and then
nation states found ways to get inside those control systems,
I guess this is just NOT ENOUGH OF A WAKEUP CALL to take
the software (the connection to a public Internet) out
of that system.

The "S" in "IOT" (Internet Of Things), stands for Security.
Did you notice there is no S in IOT ? Well, there isn't.

*******

The BEV people don't have to talk to the grid people.

The grid people will build out a grid of the appropriate
dimension for the load. The power generation industry,
will provide enough reliable baseline generation so "nothing sags".

And this has been their one job, the reason they get up
in the morning, for as long as I can remember.

Now you lot GET BACK TO WORK and stop writing these useless articles :-/
No, we do NOT need your cheese dick software, thanks.

Paul

On 14 Jul 2023 at 11:44:49 BST, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> The fact those same idiots, used Siemens control systems to
> run substations and power plants and other things, and then
> nation states found ways to get inside those control systems,
> I guess this is just NOT ENOUGH OF A WAKEUP CALL to take
> the software (the connection to a public Internet) out
> of that system.

There's no reason for these things to be connected to the public Internet.
They can run on a private network.

--
HAL 9000: Dave. Put down those Windows disks. Dave. DAVE!

Actually, when I was working for that now defunct industry, a UK colour tv
maker, We used to soak test the sets on a conveyer belt with sliding sockets
all connected to the phase of the mains that building had. However the Leccy
supply people came around and told us this wans not good as the sets were
not only on one mains phase, but used auto transformers and half wave
rectification to run them internally.
I gather we were making the local mains somewhat lop sided and unbalanced.
You would not imagine a hundred or so tvs could do that, would you.
I know this is not what the thread is actually about, but does show that
even in the 1960s, there were problems with the mains supply. I was also
told that some large supermarkets lighting were causing similar issues due
to phase shifts and reactive loading.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in message
news:u8r8v2$d79$1@dont-email.me...
> On 7/14/2023 3:02 AM, David P wrote:
>> Needed: Car experts to fend off grid disaster
>> By David Ferris, 06/12/2023, E & E News
>>
>> One way to understand the kind of problems that can arise between an
>> electric car and the electric grid is to consider the little-known
>> history of a different appliance: the air conditioner. That machine
>> first arrived on the radar of Eto, the Lawrence Berkeley scientist, in
>> 2007, when his contacts at electric utilities reported something strange.
>> "They were concerned about what they'd seen on their power systems," he
>> said.
>>
>> In 2010, the Dept of Energy, aided by NERC, launched an inquiry.
> ...snip...
>> https://www.eenews.net/articles/needed-car-experts-to-fend-off-grid-disaster/
>
> "said John Taggart, co-founder of WeaveGrid, a charging-software company
> that works with both carmakers and utilities." Well, actually, a company
> that makes
> money for itself, at the expense of others.
>
> Well, that's just it. Some people feel they will profit off the
> inability of the grid to function properly, by filling it with
> software we don't need.
>
> This is just endangering the grid, by adding more malware
> injection points.
>
> The grid should work the way it has always worked -- count the
> number of loads, fit enough generators to support those loads.
>
> The fact those same idiots, used Siemens control systems to
> run substations and power plants and other things, and then
> nation states found ways to get inside those control systems,
> I guess this is just NOT ENOUGH OF A WAKEUP CALL to take
> the software (the connection to a public Internet) out
> of that system.
>
> The "S" in "IOT" (Internet Of Things), stands for Security.
> Did you notice there is no S in IOT ? Well, there isn't.
>
> *******
>
> The BEV people don't have to talk to the grid people.
>
> The grid people will build out a grid of the appropriate
> dimension for the load. The power generation industry,
> will provide enough reliable baseline generation so "nothing sags".
>
> And this has been their one job, the reason they get up
> in the morning, for as long as I can remember.
>
> Now you lot GET BACK TO WORK and stop writing these useless articles :-/
> No, we do NOT need your cheese dick software, thanks.
>
> Paul

On 7/16/2023 4:17 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Actually, when I was working for that now defunct industry, a UK colour tv
> maker, We used to soak test the sets on a conveyer belt with sliding sockets
> all connected to the phase of the mains that building had. However the Leccy
> supply people came around and told us this wans not good as the sets were
> not only on one mains phase, but used auto transformers and half wave
> rectification to run them internally.
> I gather we were making the local mains somewhat lop sided and unbalanced.
> You would not imagine a hundred or so tvs could do that, would you.
> I know this is not what the thread is actually about, but does show that
> even in the 1960s, there were problems with the mains supply. I was also
> told that some large supermarkets lighting were causing similar issues due
> to phase shifts and reactive loading.
> Brian
>

From a design requirements point of view, a home charger for a BEV
is going to have an Active PFC requirement placed upon it. This might
cost 1% efficiency (the user is going to pay a tiny bit more for the
charging process), but it will also help the power supply people at their end.

Nobody wants to correct a reactive power load as big as 30%
of the grid. This should be corrected at the periphery, where
for these devices it is relatively easy to do. The price of a
charger box, is significant, and the cost adder for a PFC stage
is peanuts, compared to the cost of the entire charger.

I own a couple ATX supplies here, that have Active PFC. The
rest are the old 0.7 PF ones. At some point, Active PFC started
appearing on ATX supplies, implying some sort of start was
causing that to happen. It might have been a European standard,
as people in North America could not figure out why all their
supplies at Newegg, were the PFC type.

Large industries, the ones fitted with power meters for both
reactive and resistive (watts) billing, it is up to that large
consumer, to add capacitor banks, if they do not like the
additional monthly charge for the reactive power flowing from
the grid. By charging for reactive power (something they *could*
do to consumers, by using smart meters!), you can elicit corrective
action by the consumer. If it costs you a million pounds a month
for reactive power, maybe ten million pounds worth of capacitor
bank is worth it.

But since BEVs will involve many small chargers, it's easier
to place an Active PFC requirement on the charger box. One which
is *tighter* than the apparent lack of specificity on modern
LED bulbs. Expensive LEDs bulbs at first, had relatively good PFC
(0.9 maybe). The cheap bulbs we have now, that's apparently been
stripped out of some of them. And likely to the annoyance of the
grid folks. That makes the LED bulbs, practically just as bad as
the CFL bulbs (I doubt any of those were corrected in a big way).

Using a Kill-O-Watt meter, you can measure the Power Factor
of your LED bulb, and see whether it is a clunker or not.
Then test a CFL and see what the figure is for one of those,
for comparison. I might have one cheap LED bulb here, which
is *worse* than a CFL. An achievement.

Paul