If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you use?

I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal or
greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will work just as
well.

Daniele

On 27/01/2022 8:56 am, D.M. Procida wrote:
> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you use?
>
> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal or
> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will work just as
> well.
>
> Daniele

**Two cables exhibiting similar levels of resistance and inductance will
sound the same through any given pair of speakers. Whilst it is tempting
to save a few pennies by using mains cable, I advise that this can, in
rare circumstances, lead to deadly results. I always advise using cable
that does not resemble mains cable as a speaker cable. It's safer and
need not cost any more.

The loop resistance and inductance required will depend on the length of
the cable and the impedance characteristics of the speakers. Lower is
always better, but not necessarily audibly significant.

Trevor Wilson wrote:
=================
>
> **Two cables exhibiting similar levels of resistance and inductance will
> sound the same through any given pair of speakers. Whilst it is tempting
> to save a few pennies by using mains cable, I advise that this can, in
> rare circumstances, lead to deadly results. I always advise using cable
> that does not resemble mains cable as a speaker cable. It's safer and
> need not cost any more.
>

** Good general rule to use mains cable and connectors ONLY for mains power.

I have seen 3 pin outlets and plugs used for 12V DC - very dangerous.

..... Phil

On 27/01/2022 10:19 am, Phil Allison wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> =================
>>
>> **Two cables exhibiting similar levels of resistance and inductance will
>> sound the same through any given pair of speakers. Whilst it is tempting
>> to save a few pennies by using mains cable, I advise that this can, in
>> rare circumstances, lead to deadly results. I always advise using cable
>> that does not resemble mains cable as a speaker cable. It's safer and
>> need not cost any more.
>>
>
> ** Good general rule to use mains cable and connectors ONLY for mains power.
>
> I have seen 3 pin outlets and plugs used for 12V DC - very dangerous.
>

**YIKES!

Trevor Wilson wrote:
================
>
> > ** Good general rule to use mains cable and connectors ONLY for mains power.
> >
> > I have seen 3 pin outlets and plugs used for 12V DC - very dangerous.
> >
> **YIKES!
>

** The culprit was a licensed electrician !

To connect a hand held electric starter ( see link for example ) to a 12V car battery in a carry box, he used a double power outlet and 3 pin plug on the end of the motor's lead.

https://sullivanproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/S601n05.jpg

When I hinted that it was not a good idea, Sparky ( real name Warren ) assured me that Aussie 3 pin mains connectors were very reliable.

...... Phil

On Wed 26/01/2022 21:56, D.M. Procida wrote:
> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you use?
>
> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal or
> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will work just as
> well.
>

The size of cable you use largely depends upon the length. If, say, the
amp etc sites between the speakers with maybe 1-1.5m of cable run to
each speaker then something around 1.5sqmm will suffice. However of you
have a 3-5m run of cable per speaker then 4sqmm of even 6sqmm would be
better.

In terms of the type of cable, multi-core flex is better than solid
core. If you don't have access to a store that sells such cable, try a
car spares retailer as they are likely to have some quite tough/big
cable for in-car sound systems. It won't be cheap but it will both be
safer (identification) than using mains cable, and it should overall
make your system sound better.

OK Phil, time to hammer me......!

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:08:13 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

>Trevor Wilson wrote:
>================
>>
>> > ** Good general rule to use mains cable and connectors ONLY for mains power.
>> >
>> > I have seen 3 pin outlets and plugs used for 12V DC - very dangerous.
>> >
>> **YIKES!
>>
>
>** The culprit was a licensed electrician !
>
>To connect a hand held electric starter ( see link for example ) to a 12V car battery in a carry box, he used a double power outlet and 3 pin plug on the end of the motor's lead.
>
>https://sullivanproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/S601n05.jpg
>
>When I hinted that it was not a good idea, Sparky ( real name Warren ) assured me that Aussie 3 pin mains connectors were very reliable.
>
>
>..... Phil

I've seen worse. At my first ever job there was a row of benches with
mains sockets in a row long the back of each. The mains entered at one
end of the row. To connect the benches the electrician had made up
short mains leads with a plug at both ends, and used those to make the
connections. He had at least written "do not remove" on them, which I
suppose was a small mercy.

d

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In message <sstlc6$kf7$1@dont-email.me>, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
writes
>On Wed 26/01/2022 21:56, D.M. Procida wrote:
>> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you use?
>> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal
>>or
>> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will
>>work just as
>> well.
>>
>
>The size of cable you use largely depends upon the length. If, say, the
>amp etc sites between the speakers with maybe 1-1.5m of cable run to
>each speaker then something around 1.5sqmm will suffice. However of you
>have a 3-5m run of cable per speaker then 4sqmm of even 6sqmm would be
>better.
>
>In terms of the type of cable, multi-core flex is better than solid
>core. If you don't have access to a store that sells such cable, try a
>car spares retailer as they are likely to have some quite tough/big
>cable for in-car sound systems. It won't be cheap but it will both be
>safer (identification) than using mains cable, and it should overall
>make your system sound better.
>
>OK Phil, time to hammer me......!
>
Sensibly-sized mains cable is probably electrically indistinguishable
from 'proper' speaker cable. A couple of years ago, in
uk.tech.digital-tv, there was an analysis of the characteristics and
performance of the two - but I can't instantly find it.
--
Ian

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 08:52:15 +0000, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sstlc6$kf7$1@dont-email.me>, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
>writes
>>On Wed 26/01/2022 21:56, D.M. Procida wrote:
>>> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you use?
>>> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal
>>>or
>>> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will
>>>work just as
>>> well.
>>>
>>
>>The size of cable you use largely depends upon the length. If, say, the
>>amp etc sites between the speakers with maybe 1-1.5m of cable run to
>>each speaker then something around 1.5sqmm will suffice. However of you
>>have a 3-5m run of cable per speaker then 4sqmm of even 6sqmm would be
>>better.
>>
>>In terms of the type of cable, multi-core flex is better than solid
>>core. If you don't have access to a store that sells such cable, try a
>>car spares retailer as they are likely to have some quite tough/big
>>cable for in-car sound systems. It won't be cheap but it will both be
>>safer (identification) than using mains cable, and it should overall
>>make your system sound better.
>>
>>OK Phil, time to hammer me......!
>>
>Sensibly-sized mains cable is probably electrically indistinguishable
>from 'proper' speaker cable. A couple of years ago, in
>uk.tech.digital-tv, there was an analysis of the characteristics and
>performance of the two - but I can't instantly find it.

Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
inductance etc is utterly pointless.

d

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In article <j5e2lqF56ofU1@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> On 27/01/2022 8:56 am, D.M. Procida wrote:
> > If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did
> > you use?
> >
> > I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal
> > or greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will
> > work just as well.
> >
> > Daniele

> **Two cables exhibiting similar levels of resistance and inductance will
> sound the same through any given pair of speakers. Whilst it is
> tempting to save a few pennies by using mains cable, I advise that this
> can, in rare circumstances, lead to deadly results. I always advise
> using cable that does not resemble mains cable as a speaker cable. It's
> safer and need not cost any more.

IIUC in the UK you can still buy two-core mains cables that are required to
be coloured red as they are for use outdoors with garden equipment. I've
used that in the past. More generally, this may be a guide in terms of the
amount of copper needed

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cables/lscables.html

Basically, depends how long the cable needs to be to get an acceptably low
series resistance.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <61f26a40.3775281@news.eternal-september.org>, Don Pearce
<spam@spam.com> wrote:

> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
> inductance etc is utterly pointless.

...unless you are using some specific amplifiers I won't Naim. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Woody wrote:
================
>
> >
> The size of cable you use largely depends upon the length. If, say, the
> amp etc sites between the speakers with maybe 1-1.5m of cable run to
> each speaker then something around 1.5sqmm will suffice.

** At about 35mohms overall - it sure as hell would.

> However of you
> have a 3-5m run of cable per speaker then 4sqmm of even 6sqmm would be
> better.

** Got a sane reason for that remark ?

> In terms of the type of cable, multi-core flex is better than solid
> core.

* Multi-core = what exactly ??

> If you don't have access to a store that sells such cable, try a
> car spares retailer as they are likely to have some quite tough/big
> cable for in-car sound systems. It won't be cheap but it will both be
> safer (identification) than using mains cable, and it should overall
> make your system sound better.

** Car speakers are sometimes 1ohm impedance.

OTT size cables are used purely for their WANK value.

> OK Phil, time to hammer me......!

** You're wacking it pretty hard right now.

....... Phil

Jim Lesurf wrote:
=============
> In> > Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
> > handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
> > inductance etc is utterly pointless.
>
> ..unless you are using some specific amplifiers I won't Naim. :-)
> Jim
>

** I know just what JL is circuitously alluding too.

An it's all * sour grapes* horse poo as usual.

....... Phil

In article <j5dud6F4e2qU1@mid.individual.net>,
D.M. Procida <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote:
> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you
> use?

> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal or
> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will work
> just as well.

Generally 1mm or 1.5mm will be just fine for most speakers. But the sort
of mains cable you can buy easily usually has thicker insulation than
needed for obvious reasons. So a purpose made speaker flex may well be
neater.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/01/2022 8:49 pm, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 08:52:15 +0000, Ian Jackson
> <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <sstlc6$kf7$1@dont-email.me>, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
>> writes
>>> On Wed 26/01/2022 21:56, D.M. Procida wrote:
>>>> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you use?
>>>> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal
>>>> or
>>>> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will
>>>> work just as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The size of cable you use largely depends upon the length. If, say, the
>>> amp etc sites between the speakers with maybe 1-1.5m of cable run to
>>> each speaker then something around 1.5sqmm will suffice. However of you
>>> have a 3-5m run of cable per speaker then 4sqmm of even 6sqmm would be
>>> better.
>>>
>>> In terms of the type of cable, multi-core flex is better than solid
>>> core. If you don't have access to a store that sells such cable, try a
>>> car spares retailer as they are likely to have some quite tough/big
>>> cable for in-car sound systems. It won't be cheap but it will both be
>>> safer (identification) than using mains cable, and it should overall
>>> make your system sound better.
>>>
>>> OK Phil, time to hammer me......!
>>>
>> Sensibly-sized mains cable is probably electrically indistinguishable
>>from 'proper' speaker cable. A couple of years ago, in
>> uk.tech.digital-tv, there was an analysis of the characteristics and
>> performance of the two - but I can't instantly find it.
>
> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
> inductance etc is utterly pointless.
>
> d
>

**Incorrect. Depending. Very long speaker cable runs and/or using
speaker which exhibit a 'difficult' HF impedance (typically, that would
be an ESL) requires the use of low resistance AND low inductance speaker
cables. In the case of these two speakers (and many others), I used
RG213/U to obtain an audibly superior result to ROSC (Regular Old
Speaker Cable), due, in part, to it's nice low inductance. Of course,
such cable should not be used with poorly designed amplifiers. I will
not Naim the brand.

http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 05:44:10 +1100, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

>> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
>> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
>> inductance etc is utterly pointless.
>>
>> d
>>
>
>**Incorrect. Depending. Very long speaker cable runs and/or using
>speaker which exhibit a 'difficult' HF impedance (typically, that would
>be an ESL) requires the use of low resistance AND low inductance speaker
>cables. In the case of these two speakers (and many others), I used
>RG213/U to obtain an audibly superior result to ROSC (Regular Old
>Speaker Cable), due, in part, to it's nice low inductance. Of course,
>such cable should not be used with poorly designed amplifiers. I will
>not Naim the brand.
>
>http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12

All covered by "fairly thick". When you use coax what you get is
higher capacitance, not lower inductance.

d

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On 28/01/2022 7:54 am, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 05:44:10 +1100, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
>>> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
>>> inductance etc is utterly pointless.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>
>> **Incorrect. Depending. Very long speaker cable runs and/or using
>> speaker which exhibit a 'difficult' HF impedance (typically, that would
>> be an ESL) requires the use of low resistance AND low inductance speaker
>> cables. In the case of these two speakers (and many others), I used
>> RG213/U to obtain an audibly superior result to ROSC (Regular Old
>> Speaker Cable), due, in part, to it's nice low inductance. Of course,
>> such cable should not be used with poorly designed amplifiers. I will
>> not Naim the brand.
>>
>> http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12
>
> All covered by "fairly thick". When you use coax what you get is
> higher capacitance, not lower inductance.

**Correct and incorrect. The additional mutual coupling provided by
RG213/U delivers a significant improvement in inductance:

ROSC typically exhibits inductance figures of between 0.7uH/m ~ 1uH/m.

Naim cables lie at the upper end of these figures, due to their
phenomenally absurd design. It would require considerable effort to
design a worse speaker cable than the type that Naim sell (at huge cost).

RG213/U exhibits an inductance of 0.253uH/m.

A potentially significant reduction in inductance. And yes, you do get a
significant increase in capacitance, which, with any competently
designed amplifier (not a Naim) is inconsequential.

Best of all: RG213/U, at around 4 Aussie Bucks (or less) per Metre, is
significantly less expensive than most branded speaker cable. Of course,
it is a bitch to work with. So, there's that. Nonetheless, material
quality and electrical characteristics is significantly superior to most
ROSC.

On 28/01/2022 8:37 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 28/01/2022 7:54 am, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 05:44:10 +1100, Trevor Wilson
>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
>>>> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
>>>> inductance etc is utterly pointless.
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Incorrect. Depending. Very long speaker cable runs and/or using
>>> speaker which exhibit a 'difficult' HF impedance (typically, that would
>>> be an ESL) requires the use of low resistance AND low inductance speaker
>>> cables. In the case of these two speakers (and many others), I used
>>> RG213/U to obtain an audibly superior result to ROSC (Regular Old
>>> Speaker Cable), due, in part, to it's nice low inductance. Of course,
>>> such cable should not be used with poorly designed amplifiers. I will
>>> not Naim the brand.
>>>
>>> http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12
>>
>> All covered by "fairly thick". When you use coax what you get is
>> higher capacitance, not lower inductance.
>
> **Correct and incorrect. The additional mutual coupling provided by
> RG213/U delivers a significant improvement in inductance:
>
> ROSC typically exhibits inductance figures of between 0.7uH/m ~ 1uH/m.
>
> Naim cables lie at the upper end of these figures, due to their
> phenomenally absurd design. It would require considerable effort to
> design a worse speaker cable than the type that Naim sell (at huge cost).
>
> RG213/U exhibits an inductance of 0.253uH/m.
>
> A potentially significant reduction in inductance. And yes, you do get a
> significant increase in capacitance, which, with any competently
> designed amplifier (not a Naim) is inconsequential.
>
> Best of all: RG213/U, at around 4 Aussie Bucks (or less) per Metre, is
> significantly less expensive than most branded speaker cable. Of course,
> it is a bitch to work with. So, there's that. Nonetheless, material
> quality and electrical characteristics is significantly superior to most
> ROSC.
>

**Sorry about the excessive use of the word: 'significantly'.

Trevor Wilson wrote:
================
>
> >>> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
> >>> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
> >>> inductance etc is utterly pointless.
> >>>
> >>
> >> **Incorrect. Depending. Very long speaker cable runs and/or using
> >> speaker which exhibit a 'difficult' HF impedance (typically, that would
> >> be an ESL) requires the use of low resistance AND low inductance speaker
> >> cables. In the case of these two speakers (and many others), I used
> >> RG213/U to obtain an audibly superior result to ROSC (Regular Old
> >> Speaker Cable), due, in part, to it's nice low inductance. Of course,
> >> such cable should not be used with poorly designed amplifiers. I will
> >> not Naim the brand.
> >>
> >> http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12
> >
> > All covered by "fairly thick". When you use coax what you get is
> > higher capacitance, not lower inductance.
>
> **Correct and incorrect. The additional mutual coupling provided by
> RG213/U delivers a significant improvement in inductance:
>
** Yep.

> ROSC typically exhibits inductance figures of between 0.7uH/m ~ 1uH/m.
>
> RG213/U exhibits an inductance of 0.253uH/m.
>
> A potentially significant reduction in inductance. And yes, you do get a
> significant increase in capacitance, which, with any competently
> designed amplifier (not a Naim) is inconsequential.
>
** The fixes are absurdly simple.

Naim and Phase Linear amps notoriously reacted to high capacitance cables like " Tocord" ( 5nF /m) by oscillating in the MHz range.
But the total C per run needed to be at least 20nF, which is not possible with RF co-ax.

Fix #1. Add a coil of enameled copper with say 25 turns and 1cm dia to the hot speaker output.

Fix #2. Add a zobel to the speaker end using 8ohms and 47nF cap in series.

The sheer amount of hot air, printed and posted, on this trivial topic is mind boggling.

....... Phil

Yes my only problems have ever been the stripped ends. IE corrosion of some
sort affecting the connection no matter how its been done.

Tinned wire does seem to be worse than non tinned unless you are going to
use a good quality plug. The ones that trap the cable in a hole seem to
always need a clean up every month or so, Screw terminals need remaking at
least every 6 months.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"D.M. Procida" <daniele-at-vurt-dot-org@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:j5dud6F4e2qU1@mid.individual.net...
> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you
> use?
>
> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal or
> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will work
> just as
> well.
>
> Daniele

Also some amps do sound more different hand others over different cables,
and I strongly suspect this is the reason posh cables can sound different to
normal twin.
Also although the advice is to use the same length wire for left and right,
that only seems to matter in rare circumstances and often the extra length
in one, if coiled up sounds worse than the uneven lengths do.

The effects can be very subtle of cours, and seem to affect the rise times
of the top ends. I would have thought any modern amp would by now be almost
inert from these effects.
I'm certainly using nothing more interesting than two core cable as you
might find on a good quality table lamp, oh and beware speaker switch boxes,
most are crap. Brian

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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:j5e2lqF56ofU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 27/01/2022 8:56 am, D.M. Procida wrote:
>> If you've used mains cable for speaker interconnects, what size did you
>> use?
>>
>> I'd imagine that in general, any decent-quality mains cable of equal or
>> greater diameter than a particular for-purpose speaker cable will work
>> just as
>> well.
>>
>> Daniele
>
> **Two cables exhibiting similar levels of resistance and inductance will
> sound the same through any given pair of speakers. Whilst it is tempting
> to save a few pennies by using mains cable, I advise that this can, in
> rare circumstances, lead to deadly results. I always advise using cable
> that does not resemble mains cable as a speaker cable. It's safer and need
> not cost any more.
>
> The loop resistance and inductance required will depend on the length of
> the cable and the impedance characteristics of the speakers. Lower is
> always better, but not necessarily audibly significant.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:37:19 +1100, Trevor Wilson
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

>On 28/01/2022 7:54 am, Don Pearce wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 05:44:10 +1100, Trevor Wilson
>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
>>>> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
>>>> inductance etc is utterly pointless.
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>>
>>>
>>> **Incorrect. Depending. Very long speaker cable runs and/or using
>>> speaker which exhibit a 'difficult' HF impedance (typically, that would
>>> be an ESL) requires the use of low resistance AND low inductance speaker
>>> cables. In the case of these two speakers (and many others), I used
>>> RG213/U to obtain an audibly superior result to ROSC (Regular Old
>>> Speaker Cable), due, in part, to it's nice low inductance. Of course,
>>> such cable should not be used with poorly designed amplifiers. I will
>>> not Naim the brand.
>>>
>>> http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12
>>
>> All covered by "fairly thick". When you use coax what you get is
>> higher capacitance, not lower inductance.
>
>**Correct and incorrect. The additional mutual coupling provided by
>RG213/U delivers a significant improvement in inductance:
>
>ROSC typically exhibits inductance figures of between 0.7uH/m ~ 1uH/m.
>
>Naim cables lie at the upper end of these figures, due to their
>phenomenally absurd design. It would require considerable effort to
>design a worse speaker cable than the type that Naim sell (at huge cost).
>
>RG213/U exhibits an inductance of 0.253uH/m.
>
>A potentially significant reduction in inductance. And yes, you do get a
>significant increase in capacitance, which, with any competently
>designed amplifier (not a Naim) is inconsequential.
>
>Best of all: RG213/U, at around 4 Aussie Bucks (or less) per Metre, is
>significantly less expensive than most branded speaker cable. Of course,
>it is a bitch to work with. So, there's that. Nonetheless, material
>quality and electrical characteristics is significantly superior to most
>ROSC.

None of that changes the inductance. What coax does is increase the
capacitance which mitigates the inductance. As the cable is made more
capacitive the improvement increases up to the point where the
characteristic impedance of the cable equals the impedance of the
speaker. At that point the cable vanishes from the picture apart from
resistive loss.

So at audio frequencies, there is probably no such thing as a
capacitive cable - the cable impedance is always going to be well
above that of the speaker and as a result inductive. At ultrasonic
frequencies the inductance of the tweeter becomes an issue and as the
speaker impedance rises, the capacitive term of the cable dominates
and an unstable amplifier will oscillate.

As Phil said elsewhere, the solution is simple and the Naimless brand
should have included the Zobel network which prevents a catastrophic
impedance rise at HF. How they could miss something so simple and
obvious is baffling.

d

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Dope Pearce wrote:
===============
> Trevor Wilson
>
> >**Correct and incorrect. The additional mutual coupling provided by
> >RG213/U delivers a significant improvement in inductance:
> >
> >ROSC typically exhibits inductance figures of between 0.7uH/m ~ 1uH/m.
> >
>
> None of that changes the inductance.

** Fraid it actually does - you dumb pommy puke.

> What coax does is increase the
> capacitance which mitigates the inductance.

** Wrong.

Like TW claimed, it's the "mutual coupling" between adjacent conductors.

Twisting a pair of wires makes a big difference compared to simply being in parallel.

> As the cable is made more
> capacitive the improvement increases up to the point where the
> characteristic impedance of the cable equals the impedance of the
> speaker.

** Tocord has that down pat - characteristic Z is 9 ohms.

>At that point the cable vanishes from the picture apart from
> resistive loss.

** Bullshit.
Correct termination of the cable is crucial to removing parallel C.
That is **why** its use is sometimes a problem.

> So at audio frequencies, there is probably no such thing as a
> capacitive cable - the cable impedance is always going to be well
> above that of the speaker and as a result inductive.

** Drivel - not with Tocord or similar multi- twisted cables.

> At ultrasonic
> frequencies the inductance of the tweeter becomes an issue and as the
> speaker impedance rises, the capacitive term of the cable dominates
> and an unstable amplifier will oscillate.

** Yawnnnnnnnn.....

> As Phil said elsewhere, the solution is simple and the Naimless brand
> should have included the Zobel network which prevents a catastrophic
> impedance rise at HF.

** HUH ???

It's the *fall* in impedance in the MHz range that is the culprit.

>How they could miss something so simple and obvious is baffling.

** Well, so did you.

Fucking pommy wanker

...... Phil

On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 01:26:37 -0800 (PST), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dope Pearce wrote:
>===============
>> Trevor Wilson
>>
>> >**Correct and incorrect. The additional mutual coupling provided by
>> >RG213/U delivers a significant improvement in inductance:
>> >
>> >ROSC typically exhibits inductance figures of between 0.7uH/m ~ 1uH/m.
>> >
>>
>> None of that changes the inductance.
>
>** Fraid it actually does - you dumb pommy puke.
>
>
>> What coax does is increase the
>> capacitance which mitigates the inductance.
>
>** Wrong.
>
>Like TW claimed, it's the "mutual coupling" between adjacent conductors.
>
>Twisting a pair of wires makes a big difference compared to simply being in parallel.
>
>
>> As the cable is made more
>> capacitive the improvement increases up to the point where the
>> characteristic impedance of the cable equals the impedance of the
>> speaker.
>
>** Tocord has that down pat - characteristic Z is 9 ohms.
>
>>At that point the cable vanishes from the picture apart from
>> resistive loss.
>
>** Bullshit.
> Correct termination of the cable is crucial to removing parallel C.
> That is **why** its use is sometimes a problem.
>
>
>> So at audio frequencies, there is probably no such thing as a
>> capacitive cable - the cable impedance is always going to be well
>> above that of the speaker and as a result inductive.
>
>** Drivel - not with Tocord or similar multi- twisted cables.
>
>> At ultrasonic
>> frequencies the inductance of the tweeter becomes an issue and as the
>> speaker impedance rises, the capacitive term of the cable dominates
>> and an unstable amplifier will oscillate.
>
>** Yawnnnnnnnn.....
>
>
>> As Phil said elsewhere, the solution is simple and the Naimless brand
>> should have included the Zobel network which prevents a catastrophic
>> impedance rise at HF.
>
>** HUH ???
>
>It's the *fall* in impedance in the MHz range that is the culprit.
>
>
>>How they could miss something so simple and obvious is baffling.
>
>** Well, so did you.
>
> Fucking pommy wanker
>
>
>..... Phil
>
And normal service from Phil has resumed. Clueless, but will argue any
and every point.

d

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On 28/01/2022 8:08 pm, Don Pearce wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:37:19 +1100, Trevor Wilson
> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On 28/01/2022 7:54 am, Don Pearce wrote:
>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 05:44:10 +1100, Trevor Wilson
>>> <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Speaker cables are not that hard. If they are short, use whatever is
>>>>> handy. If they are long use something fairly thick. Losing sleep over
>>>>> inductance etc is utterly pointless.
>>>>>
>>>>> d
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **Incorrect. Depending. Very long speaker cable runs and/or using
>>>> speaker which exhibit a 'difficult' HF impedance (typically, that would
>>>> be an ESL) requires the use of low resistance AND low inductance speaker
>>>> cables. In the case of these two speakers (and many others), I used
>>>> RG213/U to obtain an audibly superior result to ROSC (Regular Old
>>>> Speaker Cable), due, in part, to it's nice low inductance. Of course,
>>>> such cable should not be used with poorly designed amplifiers. I will
>>>> not Naim the brand.
>>>>
>>>> http://rageaudio.com.au/index.php?p=1_12
>>>
>>> All covered by "fairly thick". When you use coax what you get is
>>> higher capacitance, not lower inductance.
>>
>> **Correct and incorrect. The additional mutual coupling provided by
>> RG213/U delivers a significant improvement in inductance:
>>
>> ROSC typically exhibits inductance figures of between 0.7uH/m ~ 1uH/m.
>>
>> Naim cables lie at the upper end of these figures, due to their
>> phenomenally absurd design. It would require considerable effort to
>> design a worse speaker cable than the type that Naim sell (at huge cost).
>>
>> RG213/U exhibits an inductance of 0.253uH/m.
>>
>> A potentially significant reduction in inductance. And yes, you do get a
>> significant increase in capacitance, which, with any competently
>> designed amplifier (not a Naim) is inconsequential.
>>
>> Best of all: RG213/U, at around 4 Aussie Bucks (or less) per Metre, is
>> significantly less expensive than most branded speaker cable. Of course,
>> it is a bitch to work with. So, there's that. Nonetheless, material
>> quality and electrical characteristics is significantly superior to most
>> ROSC.
>
> None of that changes the inductance. What coax does is increase the
> capacitance which mitigates the inductance. As the cable is made more
> capacitive the improvement increases up to the point where the
> characteristic impedance of the cable equals the impedance of the
> speaker. At that point the cable vanishes from the picture apart from
> resistive loss.

**Right and wrong. Due to the mutual coupling of the conductors in
RG213/U, inductance is MEASURABLY reduced compared to ROSC. In fact, the
lowest inductance speaker cable I am aware of (Goertz MI-1) exhibits an
inductance of around 0.012uH/m. It does so by making the mutual coupling
as close as possible (two, wide, flat conductors, sandwiched together).
It is also very expensive.

>
> So at audio frequencies, there is probably no such thing as a
> capacitive cable - the cable impedance is always going to be well
> above that of the speaker and as a result inductive. At ultrasonic
> frequencies the inductance of the tweeter becomes an issue and as the
> speaker impedance rises, the capacitive term of the cable dominates
> and an unstable amplifier will oscillate.

>
> As Phil said elsewhere, the solution is simple and the Naimless brand
> should have included the Zobel network which prevents a catastrophic
> impedance rise at HF. How they could miss something so simple and
> obvious is baffling.

**Not really. I posit that there are two possibilities:

1) Naim amplifiers are so utterly incompetently designed, that the
manufacturer refused to admit it and sold speaker cables that would
solve the problem, rather than re-designing the product.
2) Naim, cynically, designed their amplifiers so that they must be used
with their own brand of speaker cable, thus improving their bottom line.