US Coast Guard says 'presumed human remains' have been found in wreckage
of Titan sub recovered from 12,500ft below the Atlantic surface after
'catastrophic implosion' killed Titanic Five

'Presumed human remains' have been discovered in the wreckage of
the Titan submersible
The remains will now be transported aboard a ship to a port in the
US, where they will undergo testing and analysis
The finding shocked experts, after a coroner said she believed it
was unlikely officials would ever find the remains of those on board

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12244711/Presumed-human-remains-discovered-wreckage-Titan-sub-officials-say.html
--
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for
light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:51:44 -0400
JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

> US Coast Guard says 'presumed human remains' have been found in
> wreckage of Titan sub recovered from 12,500ft below the Atlantic
> surface after 'catastrophic implosion' killed Titanic Five
: > The finding shocked experts, after a coroner said she believed
> it was unlikely officials would ever find the remains of those on
> board

Perhaps the "remains" aren't quite what others would have called them. It wouldn't be the first time that USCG has misled people.

If it had been a sudden implosion scientists say there would be no remains, only a sludge of what used to be human bodies at best.

If there are remains, whole body parts, that wouldn't fit the narrative the USCG are trying to sell us.

As Donald Trump Jr has noted; things don't add up.

On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 11:59:34 +0100
The Happy Hippy <the.happy.hippy.nntp@ntlworld.invalid> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 18:51:44 -0400
> JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:
>
> > US Coast Guard says 'presumed human remains' have been found in
> > wreckage of Titan sub recovered from 12,500ft below the Atlantic
> > surface after 'catastrophic implosion' killed Titanic Five
> :
> > The finding shocked experts, after a coroner said she believed
> > it was unlikely officials would ever find the remains of those on
> > board
>
> Perhaps the "remains" aren't quite what others would have called
> them. It wouldn't be the first time that USCG has misled people.
>
> If it had been a sudden implosion scientists say there would be no
> remains, only a sludge of what used to be human bodies at best.
>
> If there are remains, whole body parts, that wouldn't fit the
> narrative the USCG are trying to sell us.
>
> As Donald Trump Jr has noted; things don't add up.

This Myth Busters adventure into liquefying divers at pressure is being deemed extremely insensitive given the reactions of the crew, but it shows what an implosion would do at a much shallower depth and under much less pressure than Titan is said to have imploded under.

It's somewhat gory, exactly how one imagines a human body being pulped would be, so you have been warned -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEY3fN4N3D8

Hard to see how any identifiable body parts remained after that, beyond perhaps imploded bone fragments which hadn't been carried away by the current.

"A diver can’t simply be crushed by the weight of water. Even at extreme depths. But the middle ear, lungs and
sinuses will suffer if equalization efforts are ignored - and even then, there will be no visible signs of being
“crushed”.

The human body is 60% water. Bone crushes at about 11,000 kg per square inch which is not achievable by diving on
Earth. Our other body minerals and salts are essentially incompressible along with water. In theory as long as a
diver equalises their own air spaces or that of the suit they wear, they avoid being crushed. There is no body of
water deep enough to exert sufficient pressure in order to solidify water or compress salts, proteins, fats and
lipids or even to crush bone."

"What would happen to a body if it sank all the way to the deepest point of the ocean?
Originally Answered: What would happen to a human body if a big brick was tied to it and it sank all the way to the
deepest point of the ocean?
Contrary to wild speculation that you'd be flattened or crushed up like a can and your bones reduced to gravel,
surprisingly little — you'd still be recognizable, until the scavengers get to work. You could last long enough
before you pass out to experience the pressure cracking your ribs, though.

So let's say your gangster buddies, who just happen to have an ocean-going boat and are cruising around in the vast
Pacific, decided to punish you for stealing bilge water by tying a plus-sized brick to your feet and tossing you in
the drink over the Mariana Trench. A regular clay brick weighs a little over 2 kgs, so let's say a big one weighs 4
kgs. That'll pull you down with some alacrity.

The first damage that happens is your ear drums will rupture. That'll hurt but not kill you.

The human body is around 60% water and not near as compressible as air. Pressure does affect air-filled spaces —
your lungs and inner ears — quickly and severely, as your ear drums will tell you if you dive to the bottom of even
a three-meter pool without equalizing. Competitive freedivers have to adapt to this, as the shrinking lung volume
puts a strain on the rib cage. The soft tissues in the abdominal cavity will push up on the diaphragm to relieve
that pressure up to a point. (In plain English: Your guts get squashed in and up to fill the gap).

At routine spearfishing and recreational freediving depths of up to 20 and even 30 meters, pressure on your rib cage
is barely even noticeable, but competitive no-limits freedivers descend to depths past 200 meters and would suffer
breaks to the rib cage if they didn't gradually build up bone density and cartilage to withstand the squeeze.

Back to your sinking experience. Your ear drums will burst well before you start having serious pain in your rib
cage. However, 4 kgs will pull you down fast, and you'll descend faster the more the air in your lungs gets
squished. Now the question is, will you pass out before or after that squishing breaks ribs?

Let's say you've never done any deliberate breathholding training and you're in average shape. You might be able to
hold your breath for a minute, on land, on the couch, relaxing. You are now, however, panicking, certainly tense,
thrashing, and already out of breath from fighting your executioners. I'll give you 15–20 seconds before you start
spasming. Those are contractions in your diaphragm, sort of like hiccups but more violent, that are your body's
urgent hint that carbon dioxide (CO2) has built up in your blood and the time to breathe is right now.

When we practice breathholding for freediving and spearfishing, we teach ourselves to go past those contractions,
because that CO2 buildup does not mean you don't still have oxygen available in your bloodstream. It's just a useful
marker for how much longer you can hold before you go hypoxic (oxygen depleted), which is what will kill you. You,
however, have never heard of that, and you're in a panic, so in all likelihood that urge to breathe will cause you
to give in and suck in water before you reach a depth where pressure will start cracking ribs.

That's important, not because you won't die one way or the other but because (a) lungs filled with water won't
compress near as much as lungs filled with air, (b) the water you sucked in is at ambient pressure and (c) your
mouth and airways are open so any further increase in pressure is now equalized. You will not experience the pain of
ribs or your sternum caving in.

If, however, you're a person of extraordinary will and you push past the contractions, you're sinking fast and may
hit the point of the rib cage crashing in, which will be horribly painful. Or oxygen will deplete, because you're
frantic and burning O2 at a rapid clip, quickly enough that you pass out, at which point your body will make a
desparate suck for air and inhale sea water. You'll then die obliviously.

Either way, by the time you pass 200–300 meters, you are no longer aware, seeing as you're dead or unconscious and
very soon dead.

Now the question is what happens to your carcass. Sorry, your body. Your earthly remains.

Well, again, you're already 60% water. Bone and cartilage compress even less than water. Your lungs are full of
water, as are your inner ears; no air-filled cavities to collapse. Hollow spaces in your bones are filled with
tissues that are connected to the rest of your body's systems via channels for, e.g. blood and lymphatic vessels, so
pressure can equalize through those openings. Pressure can even equalize on a microscopic level as water squeezes in
through semi-permeable cell membranes.

You'll just sink, not changing in appearance all that much. Then you hit the bottom without so much as a thud,
seeing as it's covered in eons' worth of silt.

How can we know this? Well, look at “whale falls” — dead marine mammals sink, providing food for whole ecosystems of
sinister things including giant isopods, hagfish, and bone-eating worms. The carcasses are structurally more or less
the same. Granted, some of these are the bodies of animals adapted to deep diving, but let's take an animal adapted
to surface pressures — alligators.

That's a dead gator at 2,000 meters, looking exactly like a dead gator at 2 meters. We know this because it was put
there by University of Louisiana researchers as part of research on food falls in the deep (image source and more
detail at Alligators in the Abyss).

Granted, there's a difference between 2,000 meters and the greatest recorded depths of over 10,000, but the effect
of change in pressure decreases the deeper you go. The gator would not look significantly different at 10,000
meters.

That is, until the soft and squishy things that survive on food falls just like that, and now your earthly remains,
reach you and get to work. At some point, maybe weeks, maybe months, there'll be nothing left but more silt."

Loose Cannon wrote:
> "A diver can’t simply be crushed by the weight of water. Even at extreme depths. But the middle ear, lungs and
> sinuses will suffer if equalization efforts are ignored - and even then, there will be no visible signs of being
> “crushed”.
>
> The human body is 60% water. Bone crushes at about 11,000 kg per square inch which is not achievable by diving on
> Earth. Our other body minerals and salts are essentially incompressible along with water. In theory as long as a
> diver equalises their own air spaces or that of the suit they wear, they avoid being crushed. There is no body of
> water deep enough to exert sufficient pressure in order to solidify water or compress salts, proteins, fats and
> lipids or even to crush bone."
>
> "What would happen to a body if it sank all the way to the deepest point of the ocean?
> Originally Answered: What would happen to a human body if a big brick was tied to it and it sank all the way to the
> deepest point of the ocean?
> Contrary to wild speculation that you'd be flattened or crushed up like a can and your bones reduced to gravel,
> surprisingly little — you'd still be recognizable, until the scavengers get to work. You could last long enough
> before you pass out to experience the pressure cracking your ribs, though.
>
> So let's say your gangster buddies, who just happen to have an ocean-going boat and are cruising around in the vast
> Pacific, decided to punish you for stealing bilge water by tying a plus-sized brick to your feet and tossing you in
> the drink over the Mariana Trench. A regular clay brick weighs a little over 2 kgs, so let's say a big one weighs 4
> kgs. That'll pull you down with some alacrity.
>
> The first damage that happens is your ear drums will rupture. That'll hurt but not kill you.
>
> The human body is around 60% water and not near as compressible as air. Pressure does affect air-filled spaces —
> your lungs and inner ears — quickly and severely, as your ear drums will tell you if you dive to the bottom of even
> a three-meter pool without equalizing. Competitive freedivers have to adapt to this, as the shrinking lung volume
> puts a strain on the rib cage. The soft tissues in the abdominal cavity will push up on the diaphragm to relieve
> that pressure up to a point. (In plain English: Your guts get squashed in and up to fill the gap).
>
> At routine spearfishing and recreational freediving depths of up to 20 and even 30 meters, pressure on your rib cage
> is barely even noticeable, but competitive no-limits freedivers descend to depths past 200 meters and would suffer
> breaks to the rib cage if they didn't gradually build up bone density and cartilage to withstand the squeeze.
>
> Back to your sinking experience. Your ear drums will burst well before you start having serious pain in your rib
> cage. However, 4 kgs will pull you down fast, and you'll descend faster the more the air in your lungs gets
> squished. Now the question is, will you pass out before or after that squishing breaks ribs?
>
> Let's say you've never done any deliberate breathholding training and you're in average shape. You might be able to
> hold your breath for a minute, on land, on the couch, relaxing. You are now, however, panicking, certainly tense,
> thrashing, and already out of breath from fighting your executioners. I'll give you 15–20 seconds before you start
> spasming. Those are contractions in your diaphragm, sort of like hiccups but more violent, that are your body's
> urgent hint that carbon dioxide (CO2) has built up in your blood and the time to breathe is right now.
>
> When we practice breathholding for freediving and spearfishing, we teach ourselves to go past those contractions,
> because that CO2 buildup does not mean you don't still have oxygen available in your bloodstream. It's just a useful
> marker for how much longer you can hold before you go hypoxic (oxygen depleted), which is what will kill you. You,
> however, have never heard of that, and you're in a panic, so in all likelihood that urge to breathe will cause you
> to give in and suck in water before you reach a depth where pressure will start cracking ribs.
>
> That's important, not because you won't die one way or the other but because (a) lungs filled with water won't
> compress near as much as lungs filled with air, (b) the water you sucked in is at ambient pressure and (c) your
> mouth and airways are open so any further increase in pressure is now equalized. You will not experience the pain of
> ribs or your sternum caving in.
>
> If, however, you're a person of extraordinary will and you push past the contractions, you're sinking fast and may
> hit the point of the rib cage crashing in, which will be horribly painful. Or oxygen will deplete, because you're
> frantic and burning O2 at a rapid clip, quickly enough that you pass out, at which point your body will make a
> desparate suck for air and inhale sea water. You'll then die obliviously.
>
> Either way, by the time you pass 200–300 meters, you are no longer aware, seeing as you're dead or unconscious and
> very soon dead.
>
> Now the question is what happens to your carcass. Sorry, your body. Your earthly remains.
>
> Well, again, you're already 60% water. Bone and cartilage compress even less than water. Your lungs are full of
> water, as are your inner ears; no air-filled cavities to collapse. Hollow spaces in your bones are filled with
> tissues that are connected to the rest of your body's systems via channels for, e.g. blood and lymphatic vessels, so
> pressure can equalize through those openings. Pressure can even equalize on a microscopic level as water squeezes in
> through semi-permeable cell membranes.
>
> You'll just sink, not changing in appearance all that much. Then you hit the bottom without so much as a thud,
> seeing as it's covered in eons' worth of silt.
>
> How can we know this? Well, look at “whale falls” — dead marine mammals sink, providing food for whole ecosystems of
> sinister things including giant isopods, hagfish, and bone-eating worms. The carcasses are structurally more or less
> the same. Granted, some of these are the bodies of animals adapted to deep diving, but let's take an animal adapted
> to surface pressures — alligators.
>
>
> That's a dead gator at 2,000 meters, looking exactly like a dead gator at 2 meters. We know this because it was put
> there by University of Louisiana researchers as part of research on food falls in the deep (image source and more
> detail at Alligators in the Abyss).
>
> Granted, there's a difference between 2,000 meters and the greatest recorded depths of over 10,000, but the effect
> of change in pressure decreases the deeper you go. The gator would not look significantly different at 10,000
> meters.
>
> That is, until the soft and squishy things that survive on food falls just like that, and now your earthly remains,
> reach you and get to work. At some point, maybe weeks, maybe months, there'll be nothing left but more silt."
>

I was thinking along the same lines, for instance, the Titanic itself.
Why hasn't it been crushed flat like a tin can long ago under all that
pressure ? Because of equalization, the process of which started
automatically 120 years ago as it sank. It is quite possible that many
areas within the ship were water tight to a degree, and those would have
ended up individually imploding as the pressure became too great days,
weeks or years after it sank.
It is possible that some areas within the ship remain water tight until
this very day, still resisting the mighty pressure ,, Human bodies would
have gradually equalized pressure as they sank, same as the ship, so no
they weren't all obliterated by pressure but rather sea creatures, the
sea itself, and time.

Speaking of sea creatures, albino crabs and delicate aquatic plants can
often be seen scuttling around on the Titanic in footage, why aren't
they crushed ? Once again, same principle.

In the specific case of the submersible, there really is no specific
recorded precedent for this to be guided by and compare. Yes we have
lost many men on military subs under similar pressures but their stories
obviously only god knows.
The obvious difference is, unlike the Titanic, it and the crew did not
gradually equalize pressure as it sank, so when the hull was breached
and the equalization process started it was necessarily sudden and
violent, but all the same over within seconds if not mili seconds. So
yes I think its probable that sudden surrender from comfort to the brute
force of the ocean could have damaged the human material, but unlikely
they were torn to shreds and turned into much.
I think any body, or lets say, any corpse found right after the incident
would have showed obvious signs of trauma but would have been relatively
intact and identifiable.

In article <M2knM.8059$W7d4.1544@fx18.iad>, JeSSe <zo@so.org> wrote:

[the two previous posts deleted for brevity]

1) Indeed, there is basically zero knowledge about what happens
to the human body in such a sudden implosion scenario. And as for
experts, well, they've been wrong before and they will be wrong
again, just like the experts who were convinced that no one will
ever break Mach 1, and the Chernobyl experts, and a zillion others
who failed to understand what will happen in extreme, hitherto
unknown conditions.

2) The human body, esp. bones, is far more resistant to compressive
pressure than most people think (see previous post).

3) You have a good point in noting that "gradual pressure" is different
from "sudden pressure".

4) I agree with your overall assessment.

5) One possible scenario is that the body is immediately filled with water,
and the outside pressure is balanced.

6) In principle, one can try and simulate what will happen, by using a
computer model. Everything can be described by a differential equation,
and these can be solved numerically. Alas there are some unknown parameters.

I just hope, for the families sake, that no gory photographs will leak,
as after the Kobe Bryant crash.

In article <u7kk3j$d9s$1@pcls7.std.com>,
Loose Cannon <efbregg73@gmx-xx.comm> wrote:

> 6) In principle, one can try and simulate what will happen, by using a
> computer model. Everything can be described by a differential equation,
> and these can be solved numerically.

Here's such a simul under REALLY extreme conditions!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALnlZcRoQDY