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Simulations are like miniskirts, they show a lot and hide the essentials. -- Hubert Kirrman


aus+uk / uk.rec.sheds / Re: Dusted

SubjectAuthor
* DustedTone
+* DustedDon Stockbauer
|`* DustedTone
| `* DustedRustyHinge
|  `* DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
|   `* Dustednev young
|    `- DustedSam Plusnet
+* Dustedsoup
|+* DustedRustyHinge
||+- DustedPeter
||`- Dustedsoup
|+* DustedTone
||+- Dustedsoup
||`* Dustednev young
|| `* Dustedsoup
||  `* Dustednev young
||   `* Dustedsoup
||    +* Dustedsoup
||    |`* DustedSam Plusnet
||    | `* Dustedsoup
||    |  +* DustedNick Odell
||    |  |`* DustedTease'n'Seize
||    |  | +- DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||    |  | `- DustedChrisND@privacy.net
||    |  `* DustedSam Plusnet
||    |   `- DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||    +- DustedTease'n'Seize
||    `- DustedNicholas D. Richards
|+* DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||`* Dustedsoup
|| +* DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
|| |`* DustedDon Stockbauer
|| | `* DustedTone
|| |  `* DustedNick Odell
|| |   `- DustedTone
|| `* DustedJohn Williamson
||  +- DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  +* Dustedmaus
||  |`- DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||  `* Dustedsoup
||   +* DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||   |`- DustedJohn Williamson
||   `* DustedSam Plusnet
||    +- DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||    `* DustedRichard Robinson
||     +* DustedTease'n'Seize
||     |`* DustedTease'n'Seize
||     | `* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |  `* DustedTease'n'Seize
||     |   +* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   |`* DustedKerr-Mudd, John
||     |   | +* DustedPeter
||     |   | |+* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | ||`* DustedPeter
||     |   | || `- DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | |`* DustedChris Elvidge
||     |   | | +- DustedJohn Williamson
||     |   | | +* DustedPeter
||     |   | | |+- DustedTease'n'Seize
||     |   | | |+* Dustedmaus
||     |   | | ||`* DustedNick Odell
||     |   | | || +- DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||     |   | | || `* Dustedmaus
||     |   | | ||  `* DustedNick Odell
||     |   | | ||   `* DustedSam Plusnet
||     |   | | ||    `* DustedKerr-Mudd, John
||     |   | | ||     +* DustedPeter
||     |   | | ||     |`* DustedKerr-Mudd, John
||     |   | | ||     | `- DustedThe Nomad
||     |   | | ||     +* DustedAndrew Marshall
||     |   | | ||     |+* DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||     |   | | ||     ||+* DustedAndrew Marshall
||     |   | | ||     |||+* DustedNick Odell
||     |   | | ||     ||||+* DustedAndrew Marshall
||     |   | | ||     |||||`* DustedNick Odell
||     |   | | ||     ||||| +* DustedDon Stockbauer
||     |   | | ||     ||||| |`- Dustedmaus
||     |   | | ||     ||||| `* Dustedmaus
||     |   | | ||     |||||  +- DustedTease'n'Seize
||     |   | | ||     |||||  `* DustedNicholas D. Richards
||     |   | | ||     |||||   `* DustedPeter
||     |   | | ||     |||||    +* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | | ||     |||||    |`* DustedPeter
||     |   | | ||     |||||    | `* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | | ||     |||||    |  `- DustedPeter
||     |   | | ||     |||||    +* Dustedmaus
||     |   | | ||     |||||    |`- DustedNicholas D. Richards
||     |   | | ||     |||||    `- DustedSam Plusnet
||     |   | | ||     ||||+* DustedNicholas D. Richards
||     |   | | ||     |||||`- DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | | ||     ||||`- DustedAhem A Rivet's Shot
||     |   | | ||     |||`- DustedBernard Peek
||     |   | | ||     ||+- DustedMike Spencer
||     |   | | ||     ||`* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | | ||     || `- DustedDon Stockbauer
||     |   | | ||     |`- DustedSam Plusnet
||     |   | | ||     `- DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | | |`* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | | | +* DustedJohn Williamson
||     |   | | | |+* DustedChrisND@privacy.net
||     |   | | | ||`* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   | | | |`* DustedNick Odell
||     |   | | | `* Dustedmaus
||     |   | | +- DustedTease'n'Seize
||     |   | | +- Dustedmaus
||     |   | | `* DustedSam Plusnet
||     |   | `* DustedRichard Robinson
||     |   `* DustedRichard Robinson
||     `- DustedTone
|`- Dustedmaus
`- DustedNick Odell

Pages:12345678
Re: Dusted

<lvgaK.114506$sMg.73307@fx06.ams1>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=9982&group=uk.rec.sheds#9982

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From: not...@home.com (Sam Plusnet)
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 by: Sam Plusnet - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 19:06 UTC

On 27-Apr-22 19:46, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On 27 Apr 2022 14:59:14 GMT
> maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-04-27, ChrisND@privacy.net <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> On 26/04/2022 15:45, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>> ChrisND@privacy.net said:
>>>>> On 26/04/2022 11:33, John Williamson wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 10:58, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter said:
>>>>>>
>>> So, an efficient national grid should be fed from somewhere more or less
>>> continuously.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>
>> Why was the Pentland Firth never considered? Powerful tides and all?
>
> It might be:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentland_Firth#Tidal_power
>>
> but it would need some Big New Cables to take it somewhere useful.

That is said to be the problem with the "Fill the Sahara with lots &
lots of solar panels" scheme.
The sheer cost and difficulty involved in installing power distribution
systems to get power to the users - and not have ill-intentioned naughty
people blow your vulnerable supply lines up whenever it suited them.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: Dusted

<1082887721.672789682.330828.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>

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https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/article-flat.php?id=9986&group=uk.rec.sheds#9986

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From: tim.dow...@gmail.com (Tim+)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: 27 Apr 2022 22:03:39 GMT
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <1082887721.672789682.330828.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>
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 by: Tim+ - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:03 UTC

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> On 27-Apr-22 12:43, ChrisND@privacy.net wrote:
>> On 26/04/2022 15:45, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>> ChrisND@privacy.net said:
>>>> On 26/04/2022 11:33, John Williamson wrote:
>>>>> On 26/04/2022 10:58, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>>> Peter said:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I saw some figures recently. I think they were saying that just
>>>>>>> over 50% of the UK electricty supply was from renewables. It could
>>>>>>> be a lot more with some decent investment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wish they were spending some of the 'nuclear' commitment on
>>>>>> getting 'tidal' working, for base load.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The latest study I've seen puts the maximum tidal power that can be
>>>>> made available at about 11% of overall demand, and while it is
>>>>> predictable, it is only cyclically available. Anyone fancy setting
>>>>> their factory shifts by the tide tables? Not terrifically helpful for
>>>>> base load un less we change our way of living to accommodate to it.
>>>>
>>>> Something called the national grid should be able to sort out the
>>>> regional variations/timings in tidal flow :-)
>>>
>>> Yes. Tides are a known quantity. If you catch the flow in both
>>> directions, it's about a 6hr cycle ? So you know how much storage you
>>> need to smooth things out
>>
>> Tidal in/out is about 6 hours each way but, even though we only have one
>> moon<G>, the tidal times vary throughout the kingdom <G>, therefore not
>> everywhere is at the same state of tide simultaneously - even in the UK.
>> So, an efficient national grid should be fed from somewhere more or less
>> continuously.
>
> Tide times certainly do vary around the UK, but do they vary _enough_ to
> keep energy production running smoothly?

They don’t. Haven’t got the link to hand but clever people have established
that no matter how many schemes you had around the UK, you’d have periods
of very low output.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Re: Dusted

<jcttg8Fff15U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: mik...@tauzero.co.uk (Mike Fleming)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 23:13:27 +0100
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 by: Mike Fleming - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 22:13 UTC

On 26/04/2022 18:06, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
>
> The tide turns twice a day, but only a short period is anything like
> maximum flow. During neap tides flow is much less than at spring tides.
> Incidentally the period of maximum tidal flow changes every day. It is
> not straight forward to rely on tidal flow.

Not in one place, but we have a grid which distributes electricity.
While there's slack water in one place, another will be in full spate.

Here's a quick sample of tide times for 28/04/22 along the Sarf Coast:

Ramsgate 28/4
Low 05:37 0.34m
High 11:07 4.80m
Low 17:59 0.63m
High 23:14 4.90m

Portsmouth 28/4
Low 03:49 1.25m
High 10:46 4.28m
Low 16:06 1.05m
High 23:26 4.57m

Plymouth 28/4
High 04:58 5.12m
Low 11:23 0.93m
High 17:29 5.08m
Low 23:43 0.97m

Penzance 28/4
High 03:57 5.18m
Low 10:42 1.01m
High 16:24 5.08m
Low 23:02 1.03m

I'm assuming that https://tidetimes.org.uk is accurate.

Re: Dusted

<t4dfut$ijc$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ton...@email.com (Tone)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:32:45 +0100
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 by: Tone - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:32 UTC

On 26/04/2022 20:50, Nicholas D. Richards wrote:
> In article <t49bao$5ge$1@dont-email.me>, Tone <tone@email.com> on Tue,
> 26 Apr 2022 at 18:49:11 awoke Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>> On 26/04/2022 15:43, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> Sorry. Are we still on the subject of discarded condoms?
>>>> Only solar amplified discarded condoms.
>>> They only swell up in the sun if you tie a knot in them.
>>
>> I had the snip in 1998.
>>
>> far cheaperererer in the 'long' run.
>>
>> (ahem)
>>
> But, more trouble if you catch a dose of the clap, or worse.

I've always been a bit fussy where I put it.

Tone

Re: Dusted

<t4dgsj$ijc$3@dont-email.me>

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From: ton...@email.com (Tone)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 08:48:34 +0100
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 by: Tone - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:48 UTC

On 27/04/2022 17:35, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
> maus wrote:
>
>> there are ways  of storing energy, including one I can see from my
>> window, even if it is 30+ miles away, a lake on top of a hill where
>> water is pumped up, and that drives turbines as it flows down when other
>> sources of electricity lower.
>
> Even the big one at dinorwig can only run for 6 hours to provide 6% of
> the UK's demand, it's about 75% efficient from pumping it up to letting
> it out.
>
> So you'd need to import lots of tall mountings with big lakes at the top.
>
> It's not as though estuary power has really proved it can generate lots
> of electricity, for my money, stick it into extra unclear stations please.
>

Or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh62XRhd1nM

Tone

Re: Dusted

<slrnt6kond.47p.maus@dmaus.org>

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From: mau...@dmaus.org (maus)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: 28 Apr 2022 09:48:29 GMT
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 by: maus - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:48 UTC

On 2022-04-28, Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 17:35, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>> maus wrote:
>>
>>> there are ways  of storing energy, including one I can see from my
>>> window, even if it is 30+ miles away, a lake on top of a hill where
>>> water is pumped up, and that drives turbines as it flows down when other
>>> sources of electricity lower.
>>
>> Even the big one at dinorwig can only run for 6 hours to provide 6% of
>> the UK's demand, it's about 75% efficient from pumping it up to letting
>> it out.
>>
>> So you'd need to import lots of tall mountings with big lakes at the top.
>>
>> It's not as though estuary power has really proved it can generate lots
>> of electricity, for my money, stick it into extra unclear stations please.
>>
>
>
> Or
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh62XRhd1nM
>
> Tone

A memory of long ago came back to me last nigh, brought back by a
mention of deserts. Not many people in the temperate zones of Earth know
that with little moisture in the air, deserts get very cold at night,
even water in containers can freeze.

--
greymausg@mail.com
He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness,

Re: Dusted

<jcv9tqFnf8hU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: chri...@privacy.net (ChrisND@privacy.net)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:51:37 +0100
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 by: ChrisND@privacy.net - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 10:51 UTC

On 27/04/2022 23:03, Tim+ wrote:
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>> On 27-Apr-22 12:43, ChrisND@privacy.net wrote:
>>> On 26/04/2022 15:45, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>> ChrisND@privacy.net said:
>>>>> On 26/04/2022 11:33, John Williamson wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 10:58, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I saw some figures recently. I think they were saying that just
>>>>>>>> over 50% of the UK electricty supply was from renewables. It could
>>>>>>>> be a lot more with some decent investment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish they were spending some of the 'nuclear' commitment on
>>>>>>> getting 'tidal' working, for base load.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The latest study I've seen puts the maximum tidal power that can be
>>>>>> made available at about 11% of overall demand, and while it is
>>>>>> predictable, it is only cyclically available. Anyone fancy setting
>>>>>> their factory shifts by the tide tables? Not terrifically helpful for
>>>>>> base load un less we change our way of living to accommodate to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something called the national grid should be able to sort out the
>>>>> regional variations/timings in tidal flow :-)
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Tides are a known quantity. If you catch the flow in both
>>>> directions, it's about a 6hr cycle ? So you know how much storage you
>>>> need to smooth things out
>>>
>>> Tidal in/out is about 6 hours each way but, even though we only have one
>>> moon<G>, the tidal times vary throughout the kingdom <G>, therefore not
>>> everywhere is at the same state of tide simultaneously - even in the UK.
>>> So, an efficient national grid should be fed from somewhere more or less
>>> continuously.
>>
>> Tide times certainly do vary around the UK, but do they vary _enough_ to
>> keep energy production running smoothly?
>
> They don’t. Haven’t got the link to hand but clever people have established
> that no matter how many schemes you had around the UK, you’d have periods
> of very low output.
>
> Tim

Fairynuff - I suspected someone would have actually done the maths
(I would be interested to see the link if you find it?).
However, one might hope that during the 'low periods' that there might
be enough wind (or sunshine) somewhere to fill in the gaps?
Anyone checked that out?

Chris

Re: Dusted

<EP1+bJAaDnaiFADv@salmiron.com>

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From: nicho...@salmiron.com (Nicholas D. Richards)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:47:54 +0100
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 by: Nicholas D. Richards - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 10:47 UTC

In article <t4dgsj$ijc$3@dont-email.me>, Tone <tone@email.com> on Thu,
28 Apr 2022 at 08:48:34 awoke Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>On 27/04/2022 17:35, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>> maus wrote:
>>
>>> there are ways  of storing energy, including one I can see from my
>>> window, even if it is 30+ miles away, a lake on top of a hill where
>>> water is pumped up, and that drives turbines as it flows down when other
>>> sources of electricity lower.
>>
>> Even the big one at dinorwig can only run for 6 hours to provide 6% of
>> the UK's demand, it's about 75% efficient from pumping it up to letting
>> it out.
>>
>> So you'd need to import lots of tall mountings with big lakes at the top.
>>
>> It's not as though estuary power has really proved it can generate lots
>> of electricity, for my money, stick it into extra unclear stations please.
>>
>
>
>Or
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh62XRhd1nM
>
Not many of us have streams flowing through our property or gardings
even.

Damming streams usually requires all sorts of permissions and planning,
for good reason. The dangers of flooding your neighbours, due to back up
or dam failure are not to be ignored. Down stream there may well be
water rights.

As a solution to the national power shortage even if the nation has
enough fast flowing water, then the dams required become very
controversial, with an understandable and fierce local opposition. As a
nation we also have a homes shortage and drowning homes behind dams is
not popular.

In times of drought you would also get an electricity shortage.

This nation has turned its back on a vast source of power, with millions
upon millions of deep coal that could be mined/extracted into the long
foreseeable future. Instead we are in danger of finding hydrocarbons
being only obtainable from sources that lay us open to political
blackmail by some very unsavoury characters.
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

Re: Dusted

<WfY6PWAvWnaiFAhs@salmiron.com>

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From: nicho...@salmiron.com (Nicholas D. Richards)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:08:31 +0100
Organization: Salmeron and Malabuyoc
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 by: Nicholas D. Richards - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:08 UTC

In article <slrnt6kond.47p.maus@dmaus.org>, maus <maus@dmaus.org> on
Thu, 28 Apr 2022 at 09:48:29 awoke Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>On 2022-04-28, Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>> On 27/04/2022 17:35, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>>> maus wrote:
>>>
>>>> there are ways  of storing energy, including one I can see from my
>>>> window, even if it is 30+ miles away, a lake on top of a hill where
>>>> water is pumped up, and that drives turbines as it flows down when other
>>>> sources of electricity lower.
>>>
>>> Even the big one at dinorwig can only run for 6 hours to provide 6% of
>>> the UK's demand, it's about 75% efficient from pumping it up to letting
>>> it out.
>>>
>>> So you'd need to import lots of tall mountings with big lakes at the top.
>>>
>>> It's not as though estuary power has really proved it can generate lots
>>> of electricity, for my money, stick it into extra unclear stations please.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Or
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh62XRhd1nM
>>
>> Tone
>
>A memory of long ago came back to me last nigh, brought back by a
>mention of deserts. Not many people in the temperate zones of Earth know
>that with little moisture in the air, deserts get very cold at night,
>even water in containers can freeze.
>
On the other hand many people do know that it gets very cold in deserts
at night. Tourism has made a big difference in our knowledge of other
climbs.

In N Africa and the Saudi peninsular, walls on an East-West axis would
protect shallow ponds on the North side of the walls, to provide a
source of ice. The ice would be collected in the early hours of the
morning.

In parts of India clay parts containing cooled boiled water were left
out overnight to collect small quantities of ice.

--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

Re: Dusted

<20220428122947.093cc30896f869404c47e26f@127.0.0.1>

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:29:47 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:29 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:08:31 +0100
"Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:

> In article <slrnt6kond.47p.maus@dmaus.org>, maus <maus@dmaus.org> on
> Thu, 28 Apr 2022 at 09:48:29 awoke Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
> >On 2022-04-28, Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
> >> On 27/04/2022 17:35, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
> >>> maus wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> there are ways  of storing energy, including one I can see from my
> >>>> window, even if it is 30+ miles away, a lake on top of a hill where
> >>>> water is pumped up, and that drives turbines as it flows down when other
> >>>> sources of electricity lower.
> >>>
> >>> Even the big one at dinorwig can only run for 6 hours to provide 6% of
> >>> the UK's demand, it's about 75% efficient from pumping it up to letting
> >>> it out.
> >>>
> >>> So you'd need to import lots of tall mountings with big lakes at the top.
> >>>
> >>> It's not as though estuary power has really proved it can generate lots
> >>> of electricity, for my money, stick it into extra unclear stations please.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Or
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh62XRhd1nM
> >>
> >> Tone
> >
> >A memory of long ago came back to me last nigh, brought back by a
> >mention of deserts. Not many people in the temperate zones of Earth know
> >that with little moisture in the air, deserts get very cold at night,
> >even water in containers can freeze.
> >
> On the other hand many people do know that it gets very cold in deserts
> at night. Tourism has made a big difference in our knowledge of other
> climbs.
and climes!
>
> In N Africa and the Saudi peninsular, walls on an East-West axis would

IIUU it's an Arabian Peninsular; the Saudis are a family dynasty.

> protect shallow ponds on the North side of the walls, to provide a
a decent thermal gradient? all the better!

> source of ice. The ice would be collected in the early hours of the
> morning.
>
> In parts of India clay parts containing cooled boiled water were left
> out overnight to collect small quantities of ice.
>
> --
> 0sterc@tcher -
>
> "Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Dusted

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Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:53:07 +0100
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:53 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:47:54 +0100
"Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:

> This nation has turned its back on a vast source of power, with millions
> upon millions of deep coal that could be mined/extracted into the long
> foreseeable future.

London smog - and some if it is radioactive. Coal is even nastier
fuel than peat and that's going some.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Re: Dusted

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From: johnwill...@btinternet.com (John Williamson)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:15:23 +0100
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 by: John Williamson - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:15 UTC

On 28/04/2022 11:51, ChrisND@privacy.net wrote:

> Fairynuff - I suspected someone would have actually done the maths
> (I would be interested to see the link if you find it?).
> However, one might hope that during the 'low periods' that there might
> be enough wind (or sunshine) somewhere to fill in the gaps?
> Anyone checked that out?
>
I've not crunched any numbers, but a selection of tidal flow checks
round the coast suggests a low speed period of a couple of hours twice a
day all around the coastline. The tides on the West are about two hours
different from the tides on the East coast, and there are fewer sites on
the East with fast flowing tides. One that comes to mind it the Thames,
but I suspect there may be objections to putting a dam there to retain
the water for hydro power.

The problem I see is that, ignoring nuclear and fossil fuels, we would
be relying on three unreliable sources, only one of which can be
accurately predicted more than a few hours ahead. Solar, while
predictable that it only works during daylight hours, is most plentiful
when demand is lowest, and long cam spells are common in Winter, and
average tidal power is nowhere near full flow 24/7.

It seems to me the only sensible answer if we decide we want to reduce
CO2 emissions is to make most or all of the base load capability
nuclear, and find a way to turn surplus renewable energy into liquid
fuels. (This works well for the Senapr, who export their surplus nuclear
power all over Europe.)

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Re: Dusted

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Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 15:28:09 +0100
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:28 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:15:23 +0100
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

> It seems to me the only sensible answer if we decide we want to reduce
> CO2 emissions is to make most or all of the base load capability
> nuclear, and find a way to turn surplus renewable energy into liquid
> fuels. (This works well for the Senapr, who export their surplus nuclear
> power all over Europe.)

Well perhaps - for long term sustainability nuclear needs a lot of
jbex.

<https://whatisnuclear.com/blog/2020-10-28-nuclear-energy-is-longterm-sustainable.html>

Powersats are likely to become a viable option soonish too.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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From: richa...@privacy.net (Richard Robinson)
Subject: Re: Dusted
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 by: Richard Robinson - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 14:51 UTC

Tim+ said:
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>> On 27-Apr-22 12:43, ChrisND@privacy.net wrote:
>>> On 26/04/2022 15:45, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>> ChrisND@privacy.net said:
>>>>> On 26/04/2022 11:33, John Williamson wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 10:58, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I saw some figures recently. I think they were saying that just
>>>>>>>> over 50% of the UK electricty supply was from renewables. It could
>>>>>>>> be a lot more with some decent investment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish they were spending some of the 'nuclear' commitment on
>>>>>>> getting 'tidal' working, for base load.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The latest study I've seen puts the maximum tidal power that can be
>>>>>> made available at about 11% of overall demand, and while it is
>>>>>> predictable, it is only cyclically available. Anyone fancy setting
>>>>>> their factory shifts by the tide tables? Not terrifically helpful for
>>>>>> base load un less we change our way of living to accommodate to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something called the national grid should be able to sort out the
>>>>> regional variations/timings in tidal flow :-)
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Tides are a known quantity. If you catch the flow in both
>>>> directions, it's about a 6hr cycle ? So you know how much storage you
>>>> need to smooth things out
>>>
>>> Tidal in/out is about 6 hours each way but, even though we only have one
>>> moon<G>, the tidal times vary throughout the kingdom <G>, therefore not
>>> everywhere is at the same state of tide simultaneously - even in the UK.
>>> So, an efficient national grid should be fed from somewhere more or less
>>> continuously.
>>
>> Tide times certainly do vary around the UK, but do they vary _enough_ to
>> keep energy production running smoothly?
>
> They don’t. Haven’t got the link to hand but clever people have established
> that no matter how many schemes you had around the UK, you’d have periods
> of very low output.

Yes, but predictable periods. It would need the notional grid to have
some sort of buffering capacity, sure. Maybe that's beyond such a
<insert worldbeatinghoohabuzzwords here> country as this ?

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

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 by: Tease'n'Se - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:18 UTC

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> Powersats are likely to become a viable option soonish too.

Mad Vlad would probably use them for target practice ...

Re: Dusted

<slrnt6lg44.70u.maus@dmaus.org>

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From: mau...@dmaus.org (maus)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: 28 Apr 2022 16:27:48 GMT
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 by: maus - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 16:27 UTC

On 2022-04-28, Tease'n'Seize <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Powersats are likely to become a viable option soonish too.
>
> Mad Vlad would probably use them for target practice ...
>

They are the maddest ideas yet. i would hasten to sell any interest I
had in property in either TelAviv or Tehran if they were put into use.

No property in either place?. Check on your insurance, and in what it
boils down to if it is reduced to the real investments.

--
greymausg@mail.com
He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness,

Re: Dusted

<20220428182945.d399b4df8d432c70207b7086@eircom.net>

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From: ste...@eircom.net (Ahem A Rivet's Shot)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:29:45 +0100
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 by: Ahem A Rivet's - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 17:29 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 17:18:07 +0100
Tease'n'Seize <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> > Powersats are likely to become a viable option soonish too.
>
> Mad Vlad would probably use them for target practice ...

Some of the designs I've looked are are basically huge sheets of
plastic film with solar cells printed on one side and microwave aerials
printed on the other dotted with chips turning the electrickery into phased
array focused microwaves. Punching holes in them will degrade them not
break them - they're designed to degrade over time by having holes punched
in them by meteoroids. The bit that I haven't seen fully worked out is
station keeping and maintaining orientation - especially if the thing is
spinning to keep it spread out.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Re: Dusted

<vanl6htp0o7gkbgl502b19jr0u0hrrgnm2@4ax.com>

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Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
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 by: Nick Odell - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:34 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:51:25 -0500, Richard Robinson
<richardR@privacy.net> wrote:

>Tim+ said:
>> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>> On 27-Apr-22 12:43, ChrisND@privacy.net wrote:
>>>> On 26/04/2022 15:45, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>> ChrisND@privacy.net said:
>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 11:33, John Williamson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 10:58, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Peter said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I saw some figures recently. I think they were saying that just
>>>>>>>>> over 50% of the UK electricty supply was from renewables. It could
>>>>>>>>> be a lot more with some decent investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wish they were spending some of the 'nuclear' commitment on
>>>>>>>> getting 'tidal' working, for base load.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The latest study I've seen puts the maximum tidal power that can be
>>>>>>> made available at about 11% of overall demand, and while it is
>>>>>>> predictable, it is only cyclically available. Anyone fancy setting
>>>>>>> their factory shifts by the tide tables? Not terrifically helpful for
>>>>>>> base load un less we change our way of living to accommodate to it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something called the national grid should be able to sort out the
>>>>>> regional variations/timings in tidal flow :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Tides are a known quantity. If you catch the flow in both
>>>>> directions, it's about a 6hr cycle ? So you know how much storage you
>>>>> need to smooth things out
>>>>
>>>> Tidal in/out is about 6 hours each way but, even though we only have one
>>>> moon<G>, the tidal times vary throughout the kingdom <G>, therefore not
>>>> everywhere is at the same state of tide simultaneously - even in the UK.
>>>> So, an efficient national grid should be fed from somewhere more or less
>>>> continuously.
>>>
>>> Tide times certainly do vary around the UK, but do they vary _enough_ to
>>> keep energy production running smoothly?
>>
>> They don’t. Haven’t got the link to hand but clever people have established
>> that no matter how many schemes you had around the UK, you’d have periods
>> of very low output.
>
>Yes, but predictable periods. It would need the notional grid to have
>some sort of buffering capacity, sure. Maybe that's beyond such a
><insert worldbeatinghoohabuzzwords here> country as this ?

On Inside Science this afternoon
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0016pw1 repeated later tonight)
they said that the place they were reporting from (Wales? West
Country?) could operate tidal-based schemes that would provide
electricity for 20 out of every 24 hours. Hmmm. I probably need to
listen again.

Nick

Re: Dusted

<20220428194346.f71ec54b8d888a3c0d17585d@127.0.0.1>

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From: adm...@127.0.0.1 (Kerr-Mudd, John)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:43:46 +0100
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:43 UTC

On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:34:52 +0100
Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:51:25 -0500, Richard Robinson
> <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >Tim+ said:
> >> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> >>> On 27-Apr-22 12:43, ChrisND@privacy.net wrote:
> >>>> On 26/04/2022 15:45, Richard Robinson wrote:
> >>>>> ChrisND@privacy.net said:
> >>>>>> On 26/04/2022 11:33, John Williamson wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 10:58, Richard Robinson wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Peter said:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I saw some figures recently. I think they were saying that just
> >>>>>>>>> over 50% of the UK electricty supply was from renewables. It could
> >>>>>>>>> be a lot more with some decent investment.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I wish they were spending some of the 'nuclear' commitment on
> >>>>>>>> getting 'tidal' working, for base load.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The latest study I've seen puts the maximum tidal power that can be
> >>>>>>> made available at about 11% of overall demand, and while it is
> >>>>>>> predictable, it is only cyclically available. Anyone fancy setting
> >>>>>>> their factory shifts by the tide tables? Not terrifically helpful for
> >>>>>>> base load un less we change our way of living to accommodate to it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Something called the national grid should be able to sort out the
> >>>>>> regional variations/timings in tidal flow :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes. Tides are a known quantity. If you catch the flow in both
> >>>>> directions, it's about a 6hr cycle ? So you know how much storage you
> >>>>> need to smooth things out
> >>>>
> >>>> Tidal in/out is about 6 hours each way but, even though we only have one
> >>>> moon<G>, the tidal times vary throughout the kingdom <G>, therefore not
> >>>> everywhere is at the same state of tide simultaneously - even in the UK.
> >>>> So, an efficient national grid should be fed from somewhere more or less
> >>>> continuously.
> >>>
> >>> Tide times certainly do vary around the UK, but do they vary _enough_ to
> >>> keep energy production running smoothly?
> >>
> >> They don’t. Haven’t got the link to hand but clever people have established
> >> that no matter how many schemes you had around the UK, you’d have periods
> >> of very low output.
> >
> >Yes, but predictable periods. It would need the notional grid to have
> >some sort of buffering capacity, sure. Maybe that's beyond such a
> ><insert worldbeatinghoohabuzzwords here> country as this ?
>
>
> On Inside Science this afternoon
> (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0016pw1 repeated later tonight)
> they said that the place they were reporting from (Wales? West
> Country?) could operate tidal-based schemes that would provide
> electricity for 20 out of every 24 hours. Hmmm. I probably need to
> listen again.
>
There was a Big Push a couple of years back for a Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon. But the Buggerem had already spent too much on getting a Japanese firm to promise to upgrade Hinckley Point, at that point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_Lagoon_Swansea_Bay#Finances

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: Dusted

<XnsAE87CA5FD7928Factura3476@144.76.35.252>

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From: mys...@prune.org.uk (Peter)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.sheds
Subject: Re: Dusted
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:53:41 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Peter - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 18:53 UTC

Nick Odell <nick@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote in
news:vanl6htp0o7gkbgl502b19jr0u0hrrgnm2@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:51:25 -0500, Richard Robinson
> <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Tim+ said:
>>> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>> On 27-Apr-22 12:43, ChrisND@privacy.net wrote:
>>>>> On 26/04/2022 15:45, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>>> ChrisND@privacy.net said:
>>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 11:33, John Williamson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 26/04/2022 10:58, Richard Robinson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Peter said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I saw some figures recently. I think they were saying that
>>>>>>>>>> just over 50% of the UK electricty supply was from
>>>>>>>>>> renewables. It could be a lot more with some decent
>>>>>>>>>> investment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wish they were spending some of the 'nuclear' commitment on
>>>>>>>>> getting 'tidal' working, for base load.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The latest study I've seen puts the maximum tidal power that
>>>>>>>> can be made available at about 11% of overall demand, and while
>>>>>>>> it is predictable, it is only cyclically available. Anyone
>>>>>>>> fancy setting their factory shifts by the tide tables? Not
>>>>>>>> terrifically helpful for base load un less we change our way of
>>>>>>>> living to accommodate to it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something called the national grid should be able to sort out
>>>>>>> the regional variations/timings in tidal flow :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. Tides are a known quantity. If you catch the flow in both
>>>>>> directions, it's about a 6hr cycle ? So you know how much storage
>>>>>> you need to smooth things out
>>>>>
>>>>> Tidal in/out is about 6 hours each way but, even though we only
>>>>> have one moon<G>, the tidal times vary throughout the kingdom <G>,
>>>>> therefore not everywhere is at the same state of tide
>>>>> simultaneously - even in the UK. So, an efficient national grid
>>>>> should be fed from somewhere more or less continuously.
>>>>
>>>> Tide times certainly do vary around the UK, but do they vary
>>>> _enough_ to keep energy production running smoothly?
>>>
>>> They don�t. Haven�t got the link to hand but clever people have
>>> established that no matter how many schemes you had around the UK,
>>> you�d have periods of very low output.
>>
>>Yes, but predictable periods. It would need the notional grid to have
>>some sort of buffering capacity, sure. Maybe that's beyond such a
>><insert worldbeatinghoohabuzzwords here> country as this ?
>
>
> On Inside Science this afternoon
> (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0016pw1 repeated later tonight)
> they said that the place they were reporting from (Wales? West
> Country?) could operate tidal-based schemes that would provide
> electricity for 20 out of every 24 hours. Hmmm. I probably need to
> listen again.

There's quite a few places round the coast where tidal storage schemes
could supply power almost continously. Bi-directional turbines can collect
power from the incoming tide, as it fills the reservoir, and then again as
the reservoir empties. Don't even need a reservoir in some places - the
Channel for example.

Combined with solar, onshore and offshore wind and biomass there's enough
potential that we wouldn't need nuclear eventually, which avoids the knotty
problem of what to do with the waste. Also, geothermal is already available
in some areas and in time, wave energy could be added into the mix. We
don't even have to wait for fusion.

But the concept puts big oil's nose out of joint so it ain't gonna happen.

The Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution wrote two big reports
setting out in detail how we can reduce our dependence on fossil fuels to a
level which doesn't pose a climate threat, some decades ago. They are still
valid. But RCEP doesn't exist any more - the gummint closed them down.

--
Peter
-----

Re: Dusted

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:10 UTC

On 28-Apr-22 16:19, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 09:51:25 -0500
> Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but predictable periods. It would need the notional grid to have
>> some sort of buffering capacity, sure. Maybe that's beyond such a
>> <insert worldbeatinghoohabuzzwords here> country as this ?
>
> There are places with four tides (one is near the Isle of Wight) a
> day due to resonance effects, presumably such things could be engineered
> rather than relying on natural water formations.
>
The result of having four tides a day must be relatively small mass
movement of water, so not ideal for power generation porpoises.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: Dusted

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:21 UTC

On 28-Apr-22 19:53, Peter wrote:
> There's quite a few places round the coast where tidal storage schemes
> could supply power almost continously. Bi-directional turbines can collect
> power from the incoming tide, as it fills the reservoir, and then again as
> the reservoir empties. Don't even need a reservoir in some places - the
> Channel for example.

The output from such a scheme doesn't suddenly go to maximum the moment
the tide turns.
It will be more like a sine curve with the central section chopped out,
so you only see the upper and lower parts of the curve.
Useful power certainly, but it isn't going to even remotely match the
demand curve.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: Dusted

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Subject: Re: Dusted
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 by: Peter - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 20:54 UTC

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote in
news:COBaK.679954$LN2.295944@fx13.iad:

> On 28-Apr-22 19:53, Peter wrote:
>> There's quite a few places round the coast where tidal storage
>> schemes could supply power almost continously. Bi-directional
>> turbines can collect power from the incoming tide, as it fills the
>> reservoir, and then again as the reservoir empties. Don't even need a
>> reservoir in some places - the Channel for example.
>
> The output from such a scheme doesn't suddenly go to maximum the
> moment the tide turns.
> It will be more like a sine curve with the central section chopped
> out, so you only see the upper and lower parts of the curve.
> Useful power certainly, but it isn't going to even remotely match the
> demand curve.

Indeed, better used in the baseload mix.

--
Peter
-----

Re: Dusted

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From: richa...@privacy.net (Richard Robinson)
Subject: Re: Dusted
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 by: Richard Robinson - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:45 UTC

Sam Plusnet said:
> On 27-Apr-22 19:46, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-27, ChrisND@privacy.net <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>> So, an efficient national grid should be fed from somewhere more or less
>>>> continuously.
>>>
>>> Why was the Pentland Firth never considered? Powerful tides and all?
>>
>> It might be:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentland_Firth#Tidal_power
>>>
>> but it would need some Big New Cables to take it somewhere useful.
>
> That is said to be the problem with the "Fill the Sahara with lots &
> lots of solar panels" scheme.
> The sheer cost and difficulty involved in installing power distribution
> systems to get power to the users - and not have ill-intentioned naughty
> people blow your vulnerable supply lines up whenever it suited them.

I Blame The Tbireazrag.

I know some of the people in http://www.orkneywind.co.uk/ - a while
back, one of them was talking about this. Orkeny's generating more than
it can eat, there are cables under the Firth down to the Big Island,
they have them saturated, and would love to be exporting more.

BFO undersea cables are loadsazbarl with a long-term payback. The people
who might put it up remember that Cameron changed the rules on such
things, so they don't want to unless/until they can be sure of the
svanapvny raivebazrag that far ahead.

That's a few-years-old news. There's been a lot of cbyvgvpvnaf talking
since, not sure about actual commitments ...

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Re: Dusted

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 by: Richard Robinson - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:46 UTC

Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:47:54 +0100
> "Nicholas D. Richards" <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
>
>> This nation has turned its back on a vast source of power, with millions
>> upon millions of deep coal that could be mined/extracted into the long
>> foreseeable future.
>
> London smog - and some if it is radioactive. Coal is even nastier
> fuel than peat and that's going some.

At least peat smells nice.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

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