Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/01/2022 12:57, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 29/01/2022 21:13, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/01/2022 09:01, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/01/2022 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am 28.01.2022 um 06:31 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 23:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 16:45, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-27 16:16:36 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/01/2022 08:19, Bob wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if WFH continues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the underground?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as LU, LO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for each of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and often third rail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition. > In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared infrastructure with the mainline network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is PATH in New York City and PATCO in Philadelphia, which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahns as it crosses certain borders, yet stay relatively close to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their centres, such as what we might see in Germany as well as here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Philadelphia, I would regard the SEPTA heavy rail as more akin to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an S-Bahn than the PATCO, which is essentailly a fully segregated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metro.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SEPTA Regional Rail is most definitely commuter, while the Norristown
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Line is still an Interurban.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Philadelphia has its own subway system, the Broad Street Line and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Market-Frankford Line, in addition to PATCO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need to be careful with the term commuter rail in a North American
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context, as that often is used for systems that are peak hours one way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only (so trains operate from suburbs to the city in the morning and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the city to the suburs in the evening, with no other service).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metro-North, SEPTA Regional Rail, New Jersey Transit, MBTA Commuter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rail, the Long Island Rail Road and even CT Rail's Shore Line East run
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in both directions off-peak as well as in peak. In fact, some of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services run almost around the clock, if not around the clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also such a thing as reverse commuting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, there were some lines that limited their services to peak, such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CT Rail Shore Line East, and NJT/Metro-North's Pascack Valley Line, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they've pretty much gone full time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MARC does not run weekend service into West Virginia, IIRC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In terms of what is and is not an S-Bahn, there is no clear definition
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as different cities use the term for different things, from Berlin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it is practically a metro, to somewhere like Dresden where it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than branding applied to conventional suburban services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Berlin and Hamburg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to which the trains are built are still UIC compliant.  In that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense Overground
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what Overground is, to be honest. It seems to be a cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between S-Bahn and RER service, combined with seating from South
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Africa's Metrorail services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What distinction are you drawing between S-Bahn and RER?  Asside from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one being in Paris, and the others being in German speaking countries,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are functionally interchangable, with for example, the Munich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn being basically the same in concept as the RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I consider Crossrail, Thameslink and Moscow's MTsK as well as the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MTsD to be closer to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question of what distinction you are drawing between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn and RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> S-Bahn I normally associate with third-rail, metro-type service,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whereas
>>>>>>>>>>>>> RER is more OHLE, with higher speeds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, I realise that the Vienna S-Bahn is likely closer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to RER.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just realised that S-Bahn in Vienna means Schnellbahn, compared with
>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany, where it means Stadtbahn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The S-Bahn brand was invented in Berlin with the meaning of
>>>>>>>>>> "Schnellbahn".  During the cold war, in Berlin the S-Bahn and U-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> networks were separated by the politics rather than by purpose: S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> was run by East Berlin,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Deutsche Reichsbahn operated Berlin S-Bahn on each side, AIUI.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> U-Bahn was run by West Berlin (as such, S-Bahn
>>>>>>>>>> took on underground-like tasks inside east Berlin).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought that local agencies operated the U-Bahn networks on their
>>>>>>>>> respective sides.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t think the U-Bahn in the east was operated by the western
>>>>>>>> authorities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's what I said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remember using an eastern U-Bahn - the ticket machine was
>>>>>>>> operated by inserting a 20 pfennig coin and turning a handle. When I did
>>>>>>>> this about a foot length of tickets emerged. I carefully tore off one and
>>>>>>>> left the rest, fearing it was possibly set up to entrap westerners.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would they try to "entrap westerners," using that method?
>>>>>>>> And yes, the S-Bahn in the west was operated by the east. The west local
>>>>>>>> population largely boycotted the system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fare was 30 pfennig in West Berlin and 30 ostpfennig in East Berlin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry I misunderstood your original point about ownership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Entrapment was a fear. On the transit motorways they invented many methods
>>>>>> of extracting fines. Sudden reductions in speed limits for spurious
>>>>>> roadworks with a police car on attendance. Making it illegal to move into
>>>>>> the faster lane to allow space for a car joining the motorway from a slip
>>>>>> road.
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard about entrapment by the VoPo on the border and on the autobahn
>>>>> corridor between Inner German border and West Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also know that it would cost DM5 to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
>>>>>
>>>>> But entrapment on the U-Bahn over a 20 ostpfennig ticket? I think that's
>>>>> reaching.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but I didn’t want to risk being the source of hard currency for a
>>>> fine.
>>>>
>>>> After my day in East Berlin I couldn’t find anything to spend the residue
>>>> of my 25 Ost Marks I was forced to change on the way over. It’s the only
>>>> time I’ve put money in a litter bin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think the more typical use was to buy music (presumably cassettes back
>>> then).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not enough residue. Managed to spend some of it on a meal - went to a
>> peoples restaurant at the far end of the tram line (the day visa did not
>> allow travel beyond the city boundary) to see what things were like beyond
>> the central part where great efforts had been made to make things looks as
>> affluent as the west. Said restaurant had an impressive menu until you
>> tried to order. It soon transpired it was a work of fiction and most items
>> were not available. Managed to waste a bit more on some ice cream and
>> coffees. That trip and some visits in recent years to museums of communism
>> in other former eastern bloc countries have made me very wary of the left
>> who claim to want to do things for the good of the working person.
>>
>
> I assume you've seen the DDR museum in Berlin? It's very good, and no, I
> couldn't get the Trabant to start!
>

The museum restaurant is OK, but I assume the food is better than was
actually the case under the DDR.

The Stasi museum in Leipzig is a real eye-opener.

--
Jeremy Double