T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Funny, since I am on Fedora, which is "almost
>cutting edge", I do some times get burned with
>new things. I was working on a network issue
>and got told that if running Fedora, it is
>presumed that I will "keep up" with changes.
>I do get burned a lot fewer than with
>Windows upgrades though. Such is life.
>
>Speaking of that, I have a bug to report on
>their new networking method. But with
>Fedora, you have a place to report bugs and
>if you are detailed with the report and respectful,
>odds are they will get fixed. This is why Fedora
>keeps getting better with time.
>
>The next big change in Fedora is iptables to
>nftables. I took a look at nftables and spaced.
>Couldn't figure out day from night. So
>I am staying with iptables for now, but know I need
>to "keep up" at some point.

Yeah, it's interesting to run Fedora, actually, because of the
constant updates, it wasn't really ideal for me, and yet, in theory,
the distro is one of the very best. But ultimately, Mint was the one
that did the trick, for me.

--
Joel Crump

On 5/3/23 08:29, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Wed, 3 May 2023 04:42:17 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/3/2023 4:04 AM, Joel wrote:
>>> Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Using Win10 on 11-supported hardware is less good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What advantages is Windows 11 putting on the table?
>>>>>
>>>>> There are always under-the-hood tweaks in newer versions, presuming
>>>>> one's hardware supports the newest.
>>>>
>>>> You care enough about such things to upgrade?
>>>> I am increasingly of the mindset that manufacturers introduce
>>>> new models merely to stimulate us into thinking we need to "upgrade".
>>>>
>>>> I revamp considerably the way the way MS seems to expect me to use the
>>>> operating system, and those factors have more to do with my productivity
>>>> than anything I intend to see in the next upgrade. Anything with
>>>> obfuscates the directories where my files are located I view as an
>>>> issue, unless I created the link myself. The fact that
>>>> file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
>>>> is at least a misdemeanor! ; ) Maybe they will provide us with a decent
>>>> "backup" program?
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think that the changes are difficult to get used to.
>>
>> Maybe not, but you haven't made the point that it's worth the bother.
>
>
> Moreover, even if it's easy to get used to a change, that doesn't mean
> we prefer the change over the way it used to be.

I love "new and improved". I do not care for
"new, awkward, and back sliding".

On my Virtual Machines of 10 and 11, I do not
install Open Shell, although it would make
things a lot easier on me, so that I will see
and get use to what my customers see.

So, although I know how to operate 10 and 11's
UI's, I find them pretty poorly thought out.
Often at times, I will just use <win><R>
and type the program I want in directly.
It should not be that damned hard to run
Notepad!

On Wed, 03 May 2023 08:27:15 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 2 May 2023 22:50:14 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
>
> > [quoted text muted]
> >obfuscates the directories where my files are located I view as an
> >issue, unless I created the link myself. The fact that
> >file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
> >is at least a misdemeanor! ; )
>
>
> I also don't like that, but it bothers me less than it does you. If
> it's easy to change from a default, it's not terrible. What would
> bother me much more would be not being to turn off that hiding.
>

Just wait for Windows 12!

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Wed, 03 May 2023 08:27:15 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
> There is very little built into Windows that I use. For example, I
> don't use Task Manager, Edge, Mail, Backup, Calc, Notepad, Wordpad,
> Search, and probably a few others that don't quickly come to mind.

What do you use instead of Calc, out of curiosity?

My don't use-from-Windows list is similar to yours: phasing out Task
Manager in favor of TMX per your recommendation,(*) don't use Edge,
Mail, Backup, **Paint**, Notepad, Wordpad, or **CharMap**.

Instead of Paint I use Irfanview. It's clunky, but I'm used to its
quirks.

Instead of CharMap I use BabelMap:
<https://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelMap.html>

(*) I suppose it would help me to transition if I changed
Ctrl+Shift+Esc to point to TMX instead of Task Manager, but I'm not
sure Windows will let me do that. Hmm ... I could probably remap the
key combo with AutoHotkey.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 5/3/23 08:58, Joel wrote:
> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Funny, since I am on Fedora, which is "almost
>> cutting edge", I do some times get burned with
>> new things. I was working on a network issue
>> and got told that if running Fedora, it is
>> presumed that I will "keep up" with changes.
>> I do get burned a lot fewer than with
>> Windows upgrades though. Such is life.
>>
>> Speaking of that, I have a bug to report on
>> their new networking method. But with
>> Fedora, you have a place to report bugs and
>> if you are detailed with the report and respectful,
>> odds are they will get fixed. This is why Fedora
>> keeps getting better with time.
>>
>> The next big change in Fedora is iptables to
>> nftables. I took a look at nftables and spaced.
>> Couldn't figure out day from night. So
>> I am staying with iptables for now, but know I need
>> to "keep up" at some point.
>
>
> Yeah, it's interesting to run Fedora, actually, because of the
> constant updates, it wasn't really ideal for me, and yet, in theory,
> the distro is one of the very best. But ultimately, Mint was the one
> that did the trick, for me.
>

A lot of people adore Mint. Choice, it is
a wonderful thing!

On 5/2/23 19:50, Bill wrote:
> The fact that
> file extensions are hidden by default if not a crime against humanity,
> is at least a misdemeanor!
1+
The lack of shown file extensions is
security issue.
On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
is the second thing I do, right after disabling
fast boot.

On 5/3/23 09:07, Stan Brown wrote:
> Just wait for Windows 12!

Oh Geez!!! Can't wait. I sure it will
be the fastest, most stable, most compatible
OS ever!

I wonder what UI they will rip off? Maybe
they will rip of IOs and Apple will sue
them, again.

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 May 2023 08:27:15 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
> > There is very little built into Windows that I use. For example, I
> > don't use Task Manager, Edge, Mail, Backup, Calc, Notepad, Wordpad,
> > Search, and probably a few others that don't quickly come to mind.
>
> What do you use instead of Calc, out of curiosity?

With 'Calc' you guys probably mean calc.exe, don't you.

[Typing 'calc' in the Open-Shell Menu :-) 'Search' box, pointed me to
calc.exe. calc.exe (in C:\Windows\System32) is apparently a stub, which
invokes the 'Calculator' *app* (in C:\Program Files\WindowsApps).]

FWIW, I do use the 'built-in' Windows 11 Calculator app, like I've
been using the 8.1 and earlier Calulator programs. Not great, but suits
most of my needs/usage.

> My don't use-from-Windows list is similar to yours: phasing out Task
> Manager in favor of TMX per your recommendation,(*) don't use Edge,
> Mail, Backup, **Paint**, Notepad, Wordpad, or **CharMap**.

I still use Task Manager, but I don't have to like it, do I!?

Don't use the other stuff either, except for the occasional use of
Notepad (it's the editor for the filtering/scoring system of my private
News server) and the even less frequent use of charmap.exe/Character Map.

> Instead of Paint I use Irfanview. It's clunky, but I'm used to its
> quirks.

Clunky is good! Clunky rocks! :-)

> Instead of CharMap I use BabelMap:
> <https://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelMap.html>

Thanks for the pointer.

On 5/3/2023 11:27 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

> I also don't like that, but it bothers me less than it does you. If
> it's easy to change from a default, it's not terrible. What would
> bother me much more would be not being to turn off that hiding.

I don't like it on a philosophical basis because I think it encourages
ignorance. Either "I don't know and I don't care", or "I don't care and
I don't know". Neither of these are as good as simply "I know", and I
think that it makes the OS appear more ominous than it really is, or
should be, when viewed at a high enough level of abstraction.

T wrote:
>
> On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
> is the second thing I do, right after disabling
> fast boot.

Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS/ option that reduces your computer boot time
with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch
active boot option.

Fast Start is a Windows feature that allows a faster startup of the
device after a shutdown and after the mobo boot process passes control
to Windows which when enabled places the device in a hibernation state
instead of a full shutdown.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 5/4/2023 12:28 AM, ...winston wrote:
> T wrote:
>>
>> On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
>> is the second thing I do, right after disabling
>> fast boot.
>
> Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS/ option that reduces your computer boot time
> with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch
> active boot option.
>
> Fast Start is a Windows feature that allows a faster startup of the
> device after a shutdown and after the mobo boot process passes control
> to Windows which when enabled places the device in a hibernation state
> instead of a full shutdown.
>

Yes, but I believe it makes the computer more vulnerable to certain
sorts of virus'.

On 5/4/2023 1:15 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 5/4/2023 12:28 AM, ...winston wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>>
>>> On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
>>> is the second thing I do, right after disabling
>>> fast boot.
>>
>> Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS/ option that reduces your computer boot time
>> with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch
>> active boot option.
>>
>> Fast Start is a Windows feature that allows a faster startup of the
>> device after a shutdown and after the mobo boot process passes control
>> to Windows which when enabled places the device in a hibernation state
>> instead of a full shutdown.
>>
>
> Yes, but I believe it makes the computer more vulnerable to certain
> sorts of virus'.

Oops, well, I'm not in a position to judge between fast boot and fast start.

On Wed, 03 May 2023 11:58:56 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Yeah, it's interesting to run Fedora, actually, because of the
> constant updates, it wasn't really ideal for me, and yet, in
> theory, the distro is one of the very best.

What theory would that be, pray tell?

mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:

>> Yeah, it's interesting to run Fedora, actually, because of the
>> constant updates, it wasn't really ideal for me, and yet, in
>> theory, the distro is one of the very best.
>
>What theory would that be, pray tell?

Well, for a personal desktop computer, Fedora has some real advantages
over some distros. Not to say it's the only such one, however. Which
is why I mentioned another one that, for me, was even better.

--
Joel Crump

On 3 May 2023 17:51:40 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> With 'Calc' you guys probably mean calc.exe, don't you.
>
> [Typing 'calc' in the Open-Shell Menu :-) 'Search' box, pointed me to
> calc.exe. calc.exe (in C:\Windows\System32) is apparently a stub, which
> invokes the 'Calculator' *app* (in C:\Program Files\WindowsApps).]

Not sure what point you're making here. It sort of
sounds like you're saying there are two different
Windows calculators, but if one just points to the
other that doesn't seem like a real difference to me.

Interestingly, in Windows 11 I don't even have read
access to "C:\Program Files\WindowsApps".

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 5/4/2023 1:16 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 5/4/2023 1:15 AM, Bill wrote:
>> On 5/4/2023 12:28 AM, ...winston wrote:
>>> T wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
>>>> is the second thing I do, right after disabling
>>>> fast boot.
>>>
>>> Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS/ option that reduces your computer boot time with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch active boot option.
>>>
>>> Fast Start is a Windows feature that allows a faster startup of the device after a shutdown and after the mobo boot process passes control to Windows which when enabled places the device in a hibernation state instead of a full shutdown.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but I believe it makes the computer more vulnerable to certain sorts of virus'.
>
> Oops, well, I'm not in a position to judge between fast boot and fast start.

Some of it is covered here. Just not this particular topic.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/secure-the-windows-10-boot-process

When the OS uses a hibernated kernel, it isn't just a
matter of loading a bitmap in a hurry, setting the PC Counter
and "letting 'er rip". The hardware devices, the complex ones,
the registers are not set on them yet. By calling an init()
routine in each driver, the hardware is brought up to a state
where it is ready to handle commands or command lists. This is
because registers in hardware, are of different "types", and some
are resistant to playback. You can, for example, make write-only
registers.

If they wanted, the kernel could still verify each driver,
verify signing or the like. They can't really engineer such
a kernel hibernation mechanism and be making it a default, unless
the booting process is handled as scrupulously as when loading
the files individually.

The time savings may not be all that great, by hibernating
the kernel and drivers. If you have a dreadfully slow hard
drive (like my Seagate 5900RPM drive the other day), I think
the time difference could be quite significant. With SSDs
though, you might be shaving a whole second off the time
for the desktop to appear. The disk with the slow seek, still
had good sustained linear transfer at 190MB/sec, so a kernel+drivers
image could load quickly. The straight-line speed of my SATA SSD
isn't really all that much faster. It's still a bit of a slug.
It's the near-zero seek time of the SSD, that makes a big
difference. Especially when the AV is doing its initial scan
and using up all the disk bandwidth :-)

Paul

On 5/4/2023 7:37 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On 3 May 2023 17:51:40 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> With 'Calc' you guys probably mean calc.exe, don't you.
>>
>> [Typing 'calc' in the Open-Shell Menu :-) 'Search' box, pointed me to
>> calc.exe. calc.exe (in C:\Windows\System32) is apparently a stub, which
>> invokes the 'Calculator' *app* (in C:\Program Files\WindowsApps).]
>
> Not sure what point you're making here. It sort of
> sounds like you're saying there are two different
> Windows calculators, but if one just points to the
> other that doesn't seem like a real difference to me.
>
> Interestingly, in Windows 11 I don't even have read
> access to "C:\Program Files\WindowsApps".
>

nfi C: > D:\out.txt

findstr WindowsApps D:\out.txt > D:\filtered.txt

That will list every file in there.
Without using Linux :-)

24,587 lines.

\Program Files\WindowsApps\Microsoft.WindowsCalculator_11.2210.0.0_x64__8wekyb3d8bbwe\
CalculatorApp.exe
CalculatorApp.dll
GraphControl.dll
clrcompression.dll (C language runtime?)
...

winver 22621.1555

Paul

On Wed, 3 May 2023 09:13:44 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 May 2023 08:27:15 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
>> There is very little built into Windows that I use. For example, I
>> don't use Task Manager, Edge, Mail, Backup, Calc, Notepad, Wordpad,
>> Search, and probably a few others that don't quickly come to mind.
>
>What do you use instead of Calc, out of curiosity?

Moffsoft Calculator 2. Not a giant difference, but I liked it a little
better and stayed with it.

>
>My don't use-from-Windows list is similar to yours: phasing out Task
>Manager in favor of TMX per your recommendation,(*) don't use Edge,
>Mail, Backup, **Paint**, Notepad, Wordpad, or **CharMap**.
>
>Instead of Paint I use Irfanview. It's clunky, but I'm used to its
>quirks.

I use IrfanView for viewing, I seldom need to use anything for
creating or modifying.

>Instead of CharMap I use BabelMap:
><https://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelMap.html>

Thanks. I never heard of it before. I just downloaded it and will try
it when I get a little more time.

>
>(*) I suppose it would help me to transition if I changed
>Ctrl+Shift+Esc to point to TMX instead of Task Manager, but I'm not
>sure Windows will let me do that. Hmm ... I could probably remap the
>key combo with AutoHotkey.

On 5/4/2023 8:43 AM, Paul wrote:
> On 5/4/2023 1:16 AM, Bill wrote:
>> On 5/4/2023 1:15 AM, Bill wrote:
>>> On 5/4/2023 12:28 AM, ...winston wrote:
>>>> T wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
>>>>> is the second thing I do, right after disabling
>>>>> fast boot.
>>>>
>>>> Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS/ option that reduces your computer boot
>>>> time with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to
>>>> launch active boot option.
>>>>
>>>> Fast Start is a Windows feature that allows a faster startup of the
>>>> device after a shutdown and after the mobo boot process passes
>>>> control to Windows which when enabled places the device in a
>>>> hibernation state instead of a full shutdown.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but I believe it makes the computer more vulnerable to certain
>>> sorts of virus'.
>>
>> Oops, well, I'm not in a position to judge between fast boot and fast
>> start.
>
> Some of it is covered here. Just not this particular topic.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/secure-the-windows-10-boot-process
>
>
> When the OS uses a hibernated kernel, it isn't just a
> matter of loading a bitmap in a hurry, setting the PC Counter
> and "letting 'er rip". The hardware devices, the complex ones,
> the registers are not set on them yet. By calling an init()
> routine in each driver, the hardware is brought up to a state
> where it is ready to handle commands or command lists. This is
> because registers in hardware, are of different "types", and some
> are resistant to playback. You can, for example, make write-only
> registers.
>
> If they wanted, the kernel could still verify each driver,
> verify signing or the like. They can't really engineer such
> a kernel hibernation mechanism and be making it a default, unless
> the booting process is handled as scrupulously as when loading
> the files individually.
>
> The time savings may not be all that great, by hibernating
> the kernel and drivers. If you have a dreadfully slow hard
> drive (like my Seagate 5900RPM drive the other day), I think
> the time difference could be quite significant. With SSDs
> though, you might be shaving a whole second off the time
> for the desktop to appear. The disk with the slow seek, still
> had good sustained linear transfer at 190MB/sec, so a kernel+drivers
> image could load quickly. The straight-line speed of my SATA SSD
> isn't really all that much faster. It's still a bit of a slug.
> It's the near-zero seek time of the SSD, that makes a big
> difference. Especially when the AV is doing its initial scan
> and using up all the disk bandwidth :-)
>
>    Paul

Paul, Thank you for the clarity that you added to this topic!

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On 3 May 2023 17:51:40 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > With 'Calc' you guys probably mean calc.exe, don't you.
> >
> > [Typing 'calc' in the Open-Shell Menu :-) 'Search' box, pointed me to
> > calc.exe. calc.exe (in C:\Windows\System32) is apparently a stub, which
> > invokes the 'Calculator' *app* (in C:\Program Files\WindowsApps).]
>
> Not sure what point you're making here. It sort of
> sounds like you're saying there are two different
> Windows calculators, but if one just points to the
> other that doesn't seem like a real difference to me.

Sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to make sure that we - i.e. you
and Ken versus me - were talking about the same program/app , i.e. the
one which says 'Calculator' on its title-bar. Apparently we *are*
talking about the same program/app, so no more confusion.
talking

> Interestingly, in Windows 11 I don't even have read
> access to "C:\Program Files\WindowsApps".

Yeah, I saw that too, Couldn't be bothered to try to get access.
Probably quite a mess in/below there.

On 4 May 2023 19:37:46 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > Interestingly, in Windows 11 I don't even have read
> > access to "C:\Program Files\WindowsApps".
>
> Yeah, I saw that too, Couldn't be bothered to try to get access.
> Probably quite a mess in/below there.

That was my thought too. If I went to all the trouble of taking
ownership, what would it gain me? I don't have any desire to make
changes.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 5/4/23 04:13, mechanic wrote:
> On Wed, 03 May 2023 11:58:56 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> Yeah, it's interesting to run Fedora, actually, because of the
>> constant updates, it wasn't really ideal for me, and yet, in
>> theory, the distro is one of the very best.
>
> What theory would that be, pray tell?

I have been using Fedora since release 20 (now on 37).
They fix thing. You even have a place to report bugs.
Plus a whole army of testers that make sure bleeding
edge bugs do not get into the general release. This
is why Fedora is referred to as "next to beading edge".
A few times they have missed things, but very seldom.

And Fedora has SELinux built in. A great security
feature. Fedora, in my technical opinion, is the
most seciroty hardened OS out there.

I used an RHEL (Red hat Enterprise Linux) clone
before that. RHEL's claim to fame is they lock the
code down so updates don't break your stuff. Problem
is that they lock in all the bugs too. I found it
a nightmare.

I am still tickled every time Fedora fires up and
it has been years since I dumped my RHEL clone.
I do not have that reaction to any other OS or
Linux distro.

Fedora definitely is not perfect. Just "Next
to perfect". (I might have said a few bad words
about them breaking my networking with an update.
I have yet to report that one. They will fix it.)

Imagine a world where M$ would fix anything you
reported to them ...

On 5/3/23 21:28, ...winston wrote:
> T wrote:
>>
>> On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
>> is the second thing I do, right after disabling
>> fast boot.
>
> Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS/ option that reduces your computer boot time
> with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch
> active boot option.
>
> Fast Start is a Windows feature that allows a faster startup of the
> device after a shutdown and after the mobo boot process passes control
> to Windows which when enabled places the device in a hibernation state
> instead of a full shutdown.
>

You would think with the number of times I have
disabled it, that I'd remember the exact name
for it.

On 5/5/23 12:26, this is what T wrote:
> Imagine a world where M$ would fix anything you
> reported to them ...
Whoa, you almost stopped my heart!!
... no such luck!
--
Al

T wrote:
> On 5/3/23 21:28, ...winston wrote:
>> T wrote:
>>>
>>> On a new install, re-enabling file extensions
>>> is the second thing I do, right after disabling
>>> fast boot.
>>
>> Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS/ option that reduces your computer boot time
>> with initialization of a minimal set of devices required to launch
>> active boot option.
>>
>> Fast Start is a Windows feature that allows a faster startup of the
>> device after a shutdown and after the mobo boot process passes control
>> to Windows which when enabled places the device in a hibernation state
>> instead of a full shutdown.
>>
>
>
> You would think with the number of times I have
> disabled it, that I'd remember the exact name
> for it.

Hope can be a fleeting, especially in moments where trouble appears.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ