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devel / comp.theory / Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

SubjectAuthor
* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5olcott
+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5Ben Bacarisse
|+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5olcott
||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5Richard Damon
|||`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5olcott
||| `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5Richard Damon
||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5dklei...@gmail.com
|||`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5olcott
||| `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5dklei...@gmail.com
|||  `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   +* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   |+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Richard Damon
|||   ||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   |||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Malcolm McLean
|||   ||||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   |||||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   ||||||`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   |||||| `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   ||||||  `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   ||||||   `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   ||||||    `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   |||||`- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Richard Damon
|||   ||||`- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   |||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Andy Walker
|||   ||||+* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalolcott
|||   |||||`- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalRichard Damon
|||   ||||`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   |||| `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Andy Walker
|||   ||||  +* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   ||||  |`- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Mike Terry
|||   ||||  `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   |||`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Richard Damon
|||   ||| `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   |||  `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   |||   `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Richard Damon
|||   ||`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   || +* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   || |`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   || | `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   || |  `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   || |   `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   || |    `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   || |     `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   || |      `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   || |       `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]dklei...@gmail.com
|||   || |        `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   || |         `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]André G. Isaak
|||   || |          `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logical necessity ](POE)olcott
|||   || |           `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalAndré G. Isaak
|||   || |            `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalolcott
|||   || |             +- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalRichard Damon
|||   || |             +* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalAndré G. Isaak
|||   || |             |`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalolcott
|||   || |             | `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalAndré G. Isaak
|||   || |             |  +* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalolcott
|||   || |             |  |+- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalAndré G. Isaak
|||   || |             |  |`- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalRichard Damon
|||   || |             |  `* Logical Necessity and the Principle of Explosionolcott
|||   || |             |   +- Logical Necessity and the Principle of ExplosionRichard Damon
|||   || |             |   `* Logical Necessity and the Principle of ExplosionAndré G. Isaak
|||   || |             |    `* Logical Necessity and the Principle of Explosionolcott
|||   || |             |     +- Logical Necessity and the Principle of ExplosionRichard Damon
|||   || |             |     `* Logical Necessity and the Principle of ExplosionAndré G. Isaak
|||   || |             |      `* Logical Necessity and the Principle of Explosionolcott
|||   || |             |       `- Logical Necessity and the Principle of ExplosionAndré G. Isaak
|||   || |             `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logicalMalcolm McLean
|||   || `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Richard Damon
|||   |`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   | `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   |  `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]olcott
|||   |   `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Ben Bacarisse
|||   `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]Richard Damon
||`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5Ben Bacarisse
|| `* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5olcott
||  `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5Ben Bacarisse
|`* Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 (Linz version)olcott
| +- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 (Linz version)Ben Bacarisse
| `- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 (Linz version)Richard Damon
`- Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5Richard Damon

Pages:1234
Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<87bl2suiap.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:44:30 +0000
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:44 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> In this Linz machine:
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<875yt0ui8l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:45 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

Deceptively omitting the key clause: that this must be the case if, and
only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt is not a good look. Stop doing
that.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<87zgqct3gv.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:50 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 11/10/2021 5:35 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> Here is the same thing using Peter Linz notation:
>> Oh dear, back to talking about Turing machines...
>>
>>> In this Linz machine:
>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>> it is true that the correct pure simulation of the
>>> input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>> There is no string ⟨Ĥ⟩, so there is nothing that can be simulated. You
>> keep removing the clause that defines Ĥ's behaviour:
>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>> if (and only if) Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt.
>> With that clause put back, you (well, other people at least) can see
>> that no TM can behave like this.
>>
> if (and only if) Ĥ.qx applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt.

No. If, and only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. As it happens, a
TM that behaved as you just specified would also be impossible (amazing
that you can't see that!) but that does not mean you are correct about
the missing condition.

You don't really know what these lines mean do you?

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5

<87tugkt3a6.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:54 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> As long as the halt decider H(P,P) reports the halt status of the
> behavior of its actual input then H is necessarily correct no matter
> how P(P) behaves in any other situation.

As long as H(P,P) == false and P(P) halts, H is not a halt decider.
According to you, your H returns false for H(P,p) and, again according
to you P(P) halts. It's wrong.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:09 UTC

On 11/10/2021 9:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> In this Linz machine:
>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>
> Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.
>

If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt then the transition
to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt
decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
its actual input.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:12 UTC

On 11/10/2021 9:45 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>
> Deceptively omitting the key clause: that this must be the case if, and
> only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt is not a good look. Stop doing
> that.
>

Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

If the pure simulation of the input to Ĥqx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never reach its
final state (whether or not this simulation is aborted) then it is
necessarily true that Ĥqx transitions to Ĥ.qn correctly.

If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt then the transition
to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt
decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
its actual input.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<Weednb-1r6sPchb8nZ2dnUU7-TGdnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 16:13 UTC

On 11/10/2021 9:50 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/10/2021 5:35 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Here is the same thing using Peter Linz notation:
>>> Oh dear, back to talking about Turing machines...
>>>
>>>> In this Linz machine:
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>> it is true that the correct pure simulation of the
>>>> input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>> There is no string ⟨Ĥ⟩, so there is nothing that can be simulated. You
>>> keep removing the clause that defines Ĥ's behaviour:
>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>> if (and only if) Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt.
>>> With that clause put back, you (well, other people at least) can see
>>> that no TM can behave like this.
>>>
>> if (and only if) Ĥ.qx applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt.
>
> No. If, and only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. As it happens, a
> TM that behaved as you just specified would also be impossible (amazing
> that you can't see that!) but that does not mean you are correct about
> the missing condition.
>
> You don't really know what these lines mean do you?
>

Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

If the pure simulation of the input to Ĥqx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never reach its
final state (whether or not this simulation is aborted) then it is
necessarily true that Ĥqx transitions to Ĥ.qn correctly.

If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt then the transition
to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt
decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
its actual input.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<87o86st04s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=23257&group=comp.theory#23257

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:02 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 11/10/2021 9:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> In this Linz machine:
>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>> Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.
>
> If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt

Inputs don't halt or not halt. You've been told this many times. You
also know how to say what you are trying to say correctly, but I think
you want to avoid being clear.

Anyway, just make sure you keep the correct condition: if, and only if,
Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Any other "facts" care to add are
immaterial since the correct condition shows that there are not such
TMs.

> then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ
> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does.

What Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is what makes the line above apply or not -- it's there
in the part you deliberately keep omitting. Ignoring (and not stating)
what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is central to why you are wrong.

> A halt
> decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
> its actual input.

There is no halt decider present in the line you keep misquoting. There
is a "half-decider" at Ĥ.qx and we know what it does. You just keep
omitting the key statements so that you can add some waffle instead.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<87ilx0t01w.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=23258&group=comp.theory#23258

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:03 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 11/10/2021 9:45 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>> Deceptively omitting the key clause: that this must be the case if, and
>> only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt is not a good look. Stop doing
>> that.
>
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

.... if, and only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. You can add any
other conditions you like after this one because this is the one that
says there can be no such Turing machine.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<87czn8szzg.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:05 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 11/10/2021 9:50 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2021 5:35 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Here is the same thing using Peter Linz notation:
>>>> Oh dear, back to talking about Turing machines...
>>>>
>>>>> In this Linz machine:
>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>> it is true that the correct pure simulation of the
>>>>> input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>> There is no string ⟨Ĥ⟩, so there is nothing that can be simulated. You
>>>> keep removing the clause that defines Ĥ's behaviour:
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>> if (and only if) Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt.
>>>> With that clause put back, you (well, other people at least) can see
>>>> that no TM can behave like this.
>>>>
>>> if (and only if) Ĥ.qx applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt.
>> No. If, and only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. As it happens, a
>> TM that behaved as you just specified would also be impossible (amazing
>> that you can't see that!) but that does not mean you are correct about
>> the missing condition.
>> You don't really know what these lines mean do you?
>
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

Just keep the proper condition and everyone except you will know what's
going on: if (and only if) Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<4LednWXvW4FVYhb8nZ2dnUU78ePNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:22 UTC

On 11/10/2021 11:02 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/10/2021 9:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> In this Linz machine:
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>> Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.
>>
>> If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt
>
> Inputs don't halt or not halt. You've been told this many times. You
> also know how to say what you are trying to say correctly, but I think
> you want to avoid being clear.
>
> Anyway, just make sure you keep the correct condition: if, and only if,
> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Any other "facts" care to add are
> immaterial since the correct condition shows that there are not such
> TMs.
>
>> then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ
>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does.
>
> What Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is what makes the line above apply or not -- it's there
> in the part you deliberately keep omitting. Ignoring (and not stating)
> what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is central to why you are wrong.
>
>> A halt
>> decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
>> its actual input.
>
> There is no halt decider present in the line you keep misquoting. There
> is a "half-decider" at Ĥ.qx and we know what it does. You just keep
> omitting the key statements so that you can add some waffle instead.
>

If the pure simulation of the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never
reach a final state of Ĥ then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily
correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt decider is only accountable
for correctly deciding the halt status of its actual input.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 17:26 UTC

On 11/10/2021 11:03 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/10/2021 9:45 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>> Deceptively omitting the key clause: that this must be the case if, and
>>> only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt is not a good look. Stop doing
>>> that.
>>
>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>
> ... if, and only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. You can add any
> other conditions you like after this one because this is the one that
> says there can be no such Turing machine.
>

That is like saying that when we know that Bill Smith robbed a liquor
store that we can arrest Bill Jones because Bill did rob a liquor store.

If the pure simulation of the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never
reach a final state of Ĥ then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily
correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt decider is only accountable
for correctly deciding the halt status of its actual input.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<877ddfu8ad.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=23262&group=comp.theory#23262

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:20:42 +0000
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:20 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 11/10/2021 11:02 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2021 9:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> In this Linz machine:
>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>> Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.
>>>
>>> If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt
>> Inputs don't halt or not halt. You've been told this many times. You
>> also know how to say what you are trying to say correctly, but I think
>> you want to avoid being clear.
>> Anyway, just make sure you keep the correct condition: if, and only if,
>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Any other "facts" care to add are
>> immaterial since the correct condition shows that there are not such
>> TMs.
>>
>>> then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ
>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does.
>> What Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is what makes the line above apply or not -- it's there
>> in the part you deliberately keep omitting. Ignoring (and not stating)
>> what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is central to why you are wrong.
>>
>>> A halt
>>> decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
>>> its actual input.
>>
>> There is no halt decider present in the line you keep misquoting. There
>> is a "half-decider" at Ĥ.qx and we know what it does. You just keep
>> omitting the key statements so that you can add some waffle instead.
>
> If the pure simulation of the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never
> reach a final state of Ĥ then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily
> correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt decider is only accountable
> for correctly deciding the halt status of its actual input.

As I say, you can add any waffle you like provided you keep the correct
condition in place. You can prove that for every TM H that behaves as
Linz specifies, the string ⟨Ĥ⟩ is even. And you can prove that it's odd
as well. You can prove anything from a contradiction.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<871r3nu857.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:23 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 11/10/2021 11:03 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2021 9:45 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>> Deceptively omitting the key clause: that this must be the case if, and
>>>> only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt is not a good look. Stop doing
>>>> that.
>>>
>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>
>> ... if, and only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. You can add any
>> other conditions you like after this one because this is the one that
>> says there can be no such Turing machine.
>
> That is like saying that when we know that Bill Smith robbed a liquor
> store that we can arrest Bill Jones because Bill did rob a liquor
> store.

No, it's not. Logic is not your thing. Just keep the correct condition
in place and everyone but you will know that there can't be any such a
Turing machine.

Or keep writing that line without the key condition if you want to be
seen as dishonest and deceptive.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<FaqdnYPofcDkgBH8nZ2dnUU7-IvNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:28 UTC

On 11/10/2021 1:20 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/10/2021 11:02 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2021 9:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In this Linz machine:
>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>> Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.
>>>>
>>>> If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt
>>> Inputs don't halt or not halt. You've been told this many times. You
>>> also know how to say what you are trying to say correctly, but I think
>>> you want to avoid being clear.
>>> Anyway, just make sure you keep the correct condition: if, and only if,
>>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Any other "facts" care to add are
>>> immaterial since the correct condition shows that there are not such
>>> TMs.
>>>
>>>> then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ
>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does.
>>> What Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is what makes the line above apply or not -- it's there
>>> in the part you deliberately keep omitting. Ignoring (and not stating)
>>> what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is central to why you are wrong.
>>>
>>>> A halt
>>>> decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
>>>> its actual input.
>>>
>>> There is no halt decider present in the line you keep misquoting. There
>>> is a "half-decider" at Ĥ.qx and we know what it does. You just keep
>>> omitting the key statements so that you can add some waffle instead.
>>
>> If the pure simulation of the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never
>> reach a final state of Ĥ then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily
>> correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt decider is only accountable
>> for correctly deciding the halt status of its actual input.
>
> As I say, you can add any waffle you like provided you keep the correct
> condition in place. You can prove that for every TM H that behaves as
> Linz specifies, the string ⟨Ĥ⟩ is even. And you can prove that it's odd
> as well. You can prove anything from a contradiction.
>

If it is necessarily true that input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ never halts when it
is correctly simulated then it is necessarily correct for Ĥ.qx to
transition to Ĥ.qn on this input.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend the concept of logical necessity
or that disagreeing with logical necessity is woefully foolish.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 19:30 UTC

On 11/10/2021 1:23 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/10/2021 11:03 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2021 9:45 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>> Deceptively omitting the key clause: that this must be the case if, and
>>>>> only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt is not a good look. Stop doing
>>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>
>>> ... if, and only if, Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. You can add any
>>> other conditions you like after this one because this is the one that
>>> says there can be no such Turing machine.
>>
>> That is like saying that when we know that Bill Smith robbed a liquor
>> store that we can arrest Bill Jones because Bill did rob a liquor
>> store.
>
> No, it's not. Logic is not your thing. Just keep the correct condition
> in place and everyone but you will know that there can't be any such a
> Turing machine.
>
> Or keep writing that line without the key condition if you want to be
> seen as dishonest and deceptive.
>

If it is necessarily true that input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ never halts when it
is correctly simulated then it is necessarily correct for Ĥ.qx to
transition to Ĥ.qn on this input.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend the concept of logical necessity
or that disagreeing with logical necessity is woefully foolish.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<smh9ef$138m$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:18:23 +0000
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 by: Andy Walker - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:18 UTC

On 10/11/2021 13:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> His removal of the key condition on H^ is crucial to his attempt to keep
> the discussion going.

Disagree. What is crucial to the attempt to keep the
discussion going is the fact that every man and his dog [other
sexes and animals are available] feels the need to reply.

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Valentine

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logical necessity ]

<8LWdnXZpSbKtsBH8nZ2dnUU7-WfNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [ logical
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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:36 UTC

On 11/10/2021 2:18 PM, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 13:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> His removal of the key condition on H^ is crucial to his attempt to keep
>> the discussion going.
>
>     Disagree.  What is crucial to the attempt to keep the
> discussion going is the fact that every man and his dog [other
> sexes and animals are available] feels the need to reply.
>

It can be objectively verified that the correct pure simulation
of the input to H(P,P) never halts. (pages 3-4 of the new paper).

It is known on the basis of logical necessity that when-so-ever
the correctly simulated input to a halt decider never halts
that this halt decider would always be correct when it reports
that its input never halts.

All of the current rebuttals are entirely based on denying this
logical necessity.

Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V2)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356105750_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V2

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<87v90zsplz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:49 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 11/10/2021 1:20 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 11/10/2021 11:02 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/10/2021 9:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this Linz machine:
>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>> Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt
>>>> Inputs don't halt or not halt. You've been told this many times. You
>>>> also know how to say what you are trying to say correctly, but I think
>>>> you want to avoid being clear.
>>>> Anyway, just make sure you keep the correct condition: if, and only if,
>>>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Any other "facts" care to add are
>>>> immaterial since the correct condition shows that there are not such
>>>> TMs.
>>>>
>>>>> then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ
>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does.
>>>> What Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is what makes the line above apply or not -- it's there
>>>> in the part you deliberately keep omitting. Ignoring (and not stating)
>>>> what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is central to why you are wrong.
>>>>
>>>>> A halt
>>>>> decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
>>>>> its actual input.
>>>>
>>>> There is no halt decider present in the line you keep misquoting. There
>>>> is a "half-decider" at Ĥ.qx and we know what it does. You just keep
>>>> omitting the key statements so that you can add some waffle instead.
>>>
>>> If the pure simulation of the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never
>>> reach a final state of Ĥ then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily
>>> correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt decider is only accountable
>>> for correctly deciding the halt status of its actual input.
>>
>> As I say, you can add any waffle you like provided you keep the correct
>> condition in place. You can prove that for every TM H that behaves as
>> Linz specifies, the string ⟨Ĥ⟩ is even. And you can prove that it's odd
>> as well. You can prove anything from a contradiction.
>
> If it is necessarily true that input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ never halts when
> it is correctly simulated then it is necessarily correct for Ĥ.qx to
> transition to Ĥ.qn on this input.

You don't seem to be listening. You certainly don't have anything
pertinent to say.

> You don't seem to be able to comprehend the concept of logical
> necessity or that disagreeing with logical necessity is woefully
> foolish.

I think it's rather foolish of you to think I might care about your
opinion of me. In case you have forgotten, I don't. I happy to stand
by my posts and let others decide who is being logical.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

<87mtmbsp5z.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:59 UTC

Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:

> On 10/11/2021 13:36, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> His removal of the key condition on H^ is crucial to his attempt to keep
>> the discussion going.
>
> Disagree. What is crucial to the attempt to keep the
> discussion going is the fact that every man and his dog [other
> sexes and animals are available] feels the need to reply.

I agree with the sentiment, but I was talking about his half of the
problem. What is crucial to my keeping the discussion going is
something of a mystery. Maybe you have some insight into that half of
the equation? I would certainly benefit from stopping.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:19 UTC

On 11/10/2021 2:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/10/2021 1:20 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 11/10/2021 11:02 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/10/2021 9:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In this Linz machine:
>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>> Remember to add that this must be the case if, and only if, Ĥ applied to
>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Then it all becomes clear to the average reader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never halt
>>>>> Inputs don't halt or not halt. You've been told this many times. You
>>>>> also know how to say what you are trying to say correctly, but I think
>>>>> you want to avoid being clear.
>>>>> Anyway, just make sure you keep the correct condition: if, and only if,
>>>>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt. Any other "facts" care to add are
>>>>> immaterial since the correct condition shows that there are not such
>>>>> TMs.
>>>>>
>>>>>> then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily correct no matter what Ĥ
>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ⟩ does.
>>>>> What Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is what makes the line above apply or not -- it's there
>>>>> in the part you deliberately keep omitting. Ignoring (and not stating)
>>>>> what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does is central to why you are wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>> A halt
>>>>>> decider is only accountable for correctly deciding the halt status of
>>>>>> its actual input.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no halt decider present in the line you keep misquoting. There
>>>>> is a "half-decider" at Ĥ.qx and we know what it does. You just keep
>>>>> omitting the key statements so that you can add some waffle instead.
>>>>
>>>> If the pure simulation of the actual input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ would never
>>>> reach a final state of Ĥ then the transition to ⊢* Ĥ.qn is necessarily
>>>> correct no matter what Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ does. A halt decider is only accountable
>>>> for correctly deciding the halt status of its actual input.
>>>
>>> As I say, you can add any waffle you like provided you keep the correct
>>> condition in place. You can prove that for every TM H that behaves as
>>> Linz specifies, the string ⟨Ĥ⟩ is even. And you can prove that it's odd
>>> as well. You can prove anything from a contradiction.
>>
>> If it is necessarily true that input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ never halts when
>> it is correctly simulated then it is necessarily correct for Ĥ.qx to
>> transition to Ĥ.qn on this input.
>
> You don't seem to be listening. You certainly don't have anything
> pertinent to say.
>

If an X is a Y then Z is always correct when it reports that an X is a Y.

If the correctly simulated input to any halt decider never halts then it
is always correct for this halt decider to report that this input never
halts.

>> You don't seem to be able to comprehend the concept of logical
>> necessity or that disagreeing with logical necessity is woefully
>> foolish.
>
> I think it's rather foolish of you to think I might care about your
> opinion of me. In case you have forgotten, I don't. I happy to stand
> by my posts and let others decide who is being logical.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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From: anw...@cuboid.co.uk (Andy Walker)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:33:57 +0000
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 by: Andy Walker - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:33 UTC

On 10/11/2021 20:59, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
[I wrote:]
>> [...] What is crucial to the attempt to keep the
>> discussion going is the fact that every man and his dog [other
>> sexes and animals are available] feels the need to reply.
> I agree with the sentiment, but I was talking about his half of the
> problem.

There is no "his half" and "your half". If two people each
feel a compulsion to reply, then the discussion is never-ending. If
only one person feels that compulsion, then the discussion halts.
[At the moment, there seem to be at least four; in a sane world,
three-quarters of them would stop.]

> What is crucial to my keeping the discussion going is
> something of a mystery. Maybe you have some insight into that half of
> the equation? I would certainly benefit from stopping.

Sure. Before you post each article, ask yourself whether
you are adding anything new [or old enough to have been forgotten].
If the answer is "no", discard it. An equivalent algorithm is to
be ruthless about ellipsising [if that's a word] every repetition.
If your article then reduces to "[...]", in toto, then so be it --
at least it won't take long to read -- but you may well find after
a bit that the compulsion to post empty messages disappears. The
human urge is to have the last word, not to have the last "...".

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Valentine

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:54 UTC

Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:

> On 10/11/2021 20:59, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> [I wrote:]
>>> [...] What is crucial to the attempt to keep the
>>> discussion going is the fact that every man and his dog [other
>>> sexes and animals are available] feels the need to reply.
>> I agree with the sentiment, but I was talking about his half of the
>> problem.
>
> There is no "his half" and "your half". If two people each
> feel a compulsion to reply, then the discussion is never-ending. If
> only one person feels that compulsion, then the discussion halts.
> [At the moment, there seem to be at least four; in a sane world,
> three-quarters of them would stop.]
>
>> What is crucial to my keeping the discussion going is
>> something of a mystery. Maybe you have some insight into that half of
>> the equation? I would certainly benefit from stopping.
>
> Sure. Before you post each article, ask yourself whether
> you are adding anything new [or old enough to have been forgotten].
> If the answer is "no", discard it.

Not really what I was asking. I know I am adding nothing. I was
wondering where the compulsion comes from. I can't quite work it out.

> An equivalent algorithm is to
> be ruthless about ellipsising [if that's a word] every repetition.
> If your article then reduces to "[...]", in toto, then so be it --
> at least it won't take long to read -- but you may well find after
> a bit that the compulsion to post empty messages disappears. The
> human urge is to have the last word, not to have the last "...".

I don't think it's just an urge to have the last word. I feel, maybe,
that there's some sort of intellectual injustice going on. As a former
academic, I respect and admire people who have spent a lifetime gaining
a deep understanding of complex subjects. To have that set against
someone who once had an ill-educated thought in the bath is infuriating.
I delude myself into feeling that I am defending something, and it's not
"the truth", it's something social -- the value of intellect, study and
hard work.

Anyway, thanks for the reality check.

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:55 UTC

Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:

> [At the moment, there seem to be at least four; in a sane world,
> three-quarters of them would stop.]

One down, at least for now!

--
Ben.

Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]

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Subject: Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V5 [Linz version]
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 by: dklei...@gmail.com - Wed, 10 Nov 2021 22:13 UTC

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 1:20:02 PM UTC-8, olcott wrote:

> If an X is a Y then Z is always correct when it reports that an X is a Y.

This is a denial of the principle of explosion. If Z is false then it implies
anything including that "an X is a Y".

(Q -> P and Q) entails P but (Q ->P and P) does not entail Q.

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