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devel / comp.theory / Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

SubjectAuthor
* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ keyolcott
+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
 `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |+* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    ||`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    || `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    ||  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    ||   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    ||   |  `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | |     `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |     +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      |   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |       `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |   |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Jeff Barnett
    |   |        |    |      |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Jeff Barnett
    |   |        |    |      |   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |       +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |       |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |       `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |      |   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |       `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |        `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |         `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |          +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |          `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |           `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |            |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Dennis Bush
    |   |        |    |            | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |            | | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | | | +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |            | | | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            | | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |            | |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |             +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    |   |        |    |             `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |              `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |               `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |                `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |                 `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Andy Walker
    `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse

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Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 18:56 UTC

On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>> specifications.
>>
>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>
> Ah, let's call it a day then.
We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know this
better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

<c024577a-856f-4896-b929-4cc941b73059n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 18:57 UTC

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:49:10 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 1:34 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:29:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 4/6/2022 1:18 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:05:36 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 4/6/2022 12:55 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 1:49:43 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/6/2022 12:07 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 12:59:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 11:43 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:29:06 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Andy Walker <a...@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/04/2022 02:57, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [I wrote:]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> students who visited two or three years later: [...].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What used to be called a "conversion MSc"?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and no. We didn't think of it that way, as we treated CS
> >>>>>>>>>>>> as just another branch of maths -- all of our students did some, just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> as they all did some statistics, and quite a lot chose to do CS options
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in the third year. From that PoV, it was a continuation rather than a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> conversion MSc, offering more advanced CS [and statistics, ....] than
> >>>>>>>>>>>> had been in the BSc. But it could have been a conversion for students
> >>>>>>>>>>>> coming with [maths] BScs from other places.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ours was more genuinely conversion as we took students with, in theory,
> >>>>>>>>>>> any background at all -- philosophy, English, history, whatever. In
> >>>>>>>>>>> general those with maths, physics and EE backgrounds has fewer problems,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but the MSc (in contrast to the BSc) was deliberately designed to have
> >>>>>>>>>>> less theory in it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want. I wonder how he
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would get on with similar exercises in C, [...].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> one TM accurately specified, let alone written.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You [and others] know this, yet persist! I suppose there is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> some interest in knowing what the next wriggle will be?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I just wonder when he'll stop the "tutorial".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
> >>>>>>>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
> >>>>>>>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
> >>>>>>>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
> >>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
> >>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
> >>>>>>>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
> >>>>>>>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the universe
> >>>>>>>>>> disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What you've actually shown is that for any simulating halt decider H, H^ built from it, and input <H^><H^> which represents H^ applied to <H^>, no H can simulate H^ applied to <H^> to its final state. This says nothing of whether H^ applied to <H^> halts, which is the actual question *as stated in the Linz proof*.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the
> >>>>>>>> CORRECTLY
> >>>>>>>>>> simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
> >>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then
> >>>>>>>> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
> >>>>>>>> a final state. (Linz:1990:234) cannot possibly be met therefore
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The *turing machine*, not an inaccurate simulation. The measurement of correct is what H^ applied to <H^> does.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies a different sequence of configurations than
> >>>>>> the simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ by embedded_H.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Then you're answering the wrong question. The question being asked is "Does H^ applied to <H^> halt?",
> >>>> No that is not the freaking question you freaking nitwit.
> >>>>
> >>>> The question is: Does the input specify a sequence of configurations
> >>>> that would reach their own final state?
> >>>
> >>> FALSE. From Linz:
> >>>
> >> Linz is wrong too.
> >
> >
> > Nope. The above is a stipulative definition.
> >
> > It is incorrect to disagree with stipulative definitions.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition
> >
> > Disagreeing with a stipulative definition is like disagreeing with
> > arithmetic.
> >
> > When in BASIC we say let X = 5,
> > disagreeing that X has the value of 5 is incorrect.
> >
> >> Because we know that a halt decider must compute the mapping
> >>
> >> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >>
> >> Anyone that says it must compute the mapping from non-inputs such as Ĥ
> >> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ IS FREAKING WRONG !!!
> >
> > You're wrong because you're disagreeing with a stipulative definition.
> When a textbook disagrees with fundamental principles of computer
> science the textbook loses.

Nope. You disagreed with a stipulative definition.

No matter how wrong you think it is that I want to know if there's a cat in your kitchen, if you don't tell me if you have a cat in your kitchen you're answering the wrong question.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 18:59 UTC

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >
> >>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
> >>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
> >>> specifications.
> >>
> >> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
> >
> > Ah, let's call it a day then.
> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know this
> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.

Bold words from someone who can't write what's effectively a "hello world" TM.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]
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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 19:00 UTC

On 4/6/2022 1:57 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:49:10 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 1:34 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:29:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2022 1:18 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:05:36 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 12:55 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 1:49:43 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 12:07 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 12:59:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 11:43 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:29:06 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy Walker <a...@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/04/2022 02:57, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [I wrote:]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students who visited two or three years later: [...].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What used to be called a "conversion MSc"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and no. We didn't think of it that way, as we treated CS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as just another branch of maths -- all of our students did some, just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as they all did some statistics, and quite a lot chose to do CS options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the third year. From that PoV, it was a continuation rather than a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversion MSc, offering more advanced CS [and statistics, ...] than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had been in the BSc. But it could have been a conversion for students
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming with [maths] BScs from other places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ours was more genuinely conversion as we took students with, in theory,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any background at all -- philosophy, English, history, whatever. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> general those with maths, physics and EE backgrounds has fewer problems,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but the MSc (in contrast to the BSc) was deliberately designed to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> less theory in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want. I wonder how he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would get on with similar exercises in C, [...].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one TM accurately specified, let alone written.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You [and others] know this, yet persist! I suppose there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some interest in knowing what the next wriggle will be?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wonder when he'll stop the "tutorial".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>>>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the universe
>>>>>>>>>>>> disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What you've actually shown is that for any simulating halt decider H, H^ built from it, and input <H^><H^> which represents H^ applied to <H^>, no H can simulate H^ applied to <H^> to its final state. This says nothing of whether H^ applied to <H^> halts, which is the actual question *as stated in the Linz proof*.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the
>>>>>>>>>> CORRECTLY
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then
>>>>>>>>>> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
>>>>>>>>>> a final state. (Linz:1990:234) cannot possibly be met therefore
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The *turing machine*, not an inaccurate simulation. The measurement of correct is what H^ applied to <H^> does.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies a different sequence of configurations than
>>>>>>>> the simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ by embedded_H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you're answering the wrong question. The question being asked is "Does H^ applied to <H^> halt?",
>>>>>> No that is not the freaking question you freaking nitwit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question is: Does the input specify a sequence of configurations
>>>>>> that would reach their own final state?
>>>>>
>>>>> FALSE. From Linz:
>>>>>
>>>> Linz is wrong too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Nope. The above is a stipulative definition.
>>>
>>> It is incorrect to disagree with stipulative definitions.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition
>>>
>>> Disagreeing with a stipulative definition is like disagreeing with
>>> arithmetic.
>>>
>>> When in BASIC we say let X = 5,
>>> disagreeing that X has the value of 5 is incorrect.
>>>
>>>> Because we know that a halt decider must compute the mapping
>>>>
>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>>
>>>> Anyone that says it must compute the mapping from non-inputs such as Ĥ
>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ IS FREAKING WRONG !!!
>>>
>>> You're wrong because you're disagreeing with a stipulative definition.
>> When a textbook disagrees with fundamental principles of computer
>> science the textbook loses.
>
> Nope. You disagreed with a stipulative definition.
>
> No matter how wrong you think it is that I want to know if there's a cat in your kitchen, if you don't tell me if you have a cat in your kitchen you're answering the wrong question.

You are back to simply playing head games with no regard for the actual
truth what-so-ever.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 19:03 UTC

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 3:01:00 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 1:57 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:49:10 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 4/6/2022 1:34 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:29:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 4/6/2022 1:18 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:05:36 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/6/2022 12:55 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 1:49:43 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 12:07 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 12:59:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 11:43 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:29:06 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy Walker <a...@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/04/2022 02:57, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [I wrote:]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students who visited two or three years later: [...].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What used to be called a "conversion MSc"?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and no. We didn't think of it that way, as we treated CS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as just another branch of maths -- all of our students did some, just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as they all did some statistics, and quite a lot chose to do CS options
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the third year. From that PoV, it was a continuation rather than a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversion MSc, offering more advanced CS [and statistics, ...] than
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> had been in the BSc. But it could have been a conversion for students
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming with [maths] BScs from other places.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ours was more genuinely conversion as we took students with, in theory,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> any background at all -- philosophy, English, history, whatever. In
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> general those with maths, physics and EE backgrounds has fewer problems,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but the MSc (in contrast to the BSc) was deliberately designed to have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> less theory in it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want.. I wonder how he
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would get on with similar exercises in C, [...].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one TM accurately specified, let alone written.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You [and others] know this, yet persist! I suppose there is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> some interest in knowing what the next wriggle will be?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wonder when he'll stop the "tutorial".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
> >>>>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the universe
> >>>>>>>>>>>> disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> What you've actually shown is that for any simulating halt decider H, H^ built from it, and input <H^><H^> which represents H^ applied to <H^>, no H can simulate H^ applied to <H^> to its final state. This says nothing of whether H^ applied to <H^> halts, which is the actual question *as stated in the Linz proof*.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the
> >>>>>>>>>> CORRECTLY
> >>>>>>>>>>>> simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
> >>>>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then
> >>>>>>>>>> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
> >>>>>>>>>> a final state. (Linz:1990:234) cannot possibly be met therefore
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The *turing machine*, not an inaccurate simulation. The measurement of correct is what H^ applied to <H^> does.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies a different sequence of configurations than
> >>>>>>>> the simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ by embedded_H.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Then you're answering the wrong question. The question being asked is "Does H^ applied to <H^> halt?",
> >>>>>> No that is not the freaking question you freaking nitwit.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The question is: Does the input specify a sequence of configurations
> >>>>>> that would reach their own final state?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> FALSE. From Linz:
> >>>>>
> >>>> Linz is wrong too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Nope. The above is a stipulative definition.
> >>>
> >>> It is incorrect to disagree with stipulative definitions.
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition
> >>>
> >>> Disagreeing with a stipulative definition is like disagreeing with
> >>> arithmetic.
> >>>
> >>> When in BASIC we say let X = 5,
> >>> disagreeing that X has the value of 5 is incorrect.
> >>>
> >>>> Because we know that a halt decider must compute the mapping
> >>>>
> >>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyone that says it must compute the mapping from non-inputs such as Ĥ
> >>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ IS FREAKING WRONG !!!
> >>>
> >>> You're wrong because you're disagreeing with a stipulative definition..
> >> When a textbook disagrees with fundamental principles of computer
> >> science the textbook loses.
> >
> > Nope. You disagreed with a stipulative definition.
> >
> > No matter how wrong you think it is that I want to know if there's a cat in your kitchen, if you don't tell me if you have a cat in your kitchen you're answering the wrong question.
> You are back to simply playing head games with no regard for the actual
> truth what-so-ever.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 19:06 UTC

On 4/6/2022 1:59 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>>> specifications.
>>>>
>>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>>
>>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know this
>> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>
> Bold words from someone who can't write what's effectively a "hello world" TM.

It is not the tedious details about writing a TM that are most important.

It is exactly how all of the fundamental concepts of the theory of
computation fit together relative to TM's that is most crucial.

If you get the first part perfectly and in the second part you have at
least one large error then you know enormously less about TM's than
someone that only gets the second part correctly.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 19:08 UTC

On 4/6/2022 2:03 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 3:01:00 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 1:57 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:49:10 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2022 1:34 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:29:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 1:18 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:05:36 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 12:55 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 1:49:43 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 12:07 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 12:59:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 11:43 AM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:29:06 AM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy Walker <a...@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/04/2022 02:57, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [I wrote:]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students who visited two or three years later: [...].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What used to be called a "conversion MSc"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and no. We didn't think of it that way, as we treated CS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as just another branch of maths -- all of our students did some, just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as they all did some statistics, and quite a lot chose to do CS options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the third year. From that PoV, it was a continuation rather than a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversion MSc, offering more advanced CS [and statistics, ...] than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had been in the BSc. But it could have been a conversion for students
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming with [maths] BScs from other places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ours was more genuinely conversion as we took students with, in theory,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any background at all -- philosophy, English, history, whatever. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> general those with maths, physics and EE backgrounds has fewer problems,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but the MSc (in contrast to the BSc) was deliberately designed to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> less theory in it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want. I wonder how he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would get on with similar exercises in C, [...].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one TM accurately specified, let alone written.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You [and others] know this, yet persist! I suppose there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some interest in knowing what the next wriggle will be?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wonder when he'll stop the "tutorial".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the universe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What you've actually shown is that for any simulating halt decider H, H^ built from it, and input <H^><H^> which represents H^ applied to <H^>, no H can simulate H^ applied to <H^> to its final state. This says nothing of whether H^ applied to <H^> halts, which is the actual question *as stated in the Linz proof*.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If it is the case that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> CORRECTLY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then
>>>>>>>>>>>> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
>>>>>>>>>>>> a final state. (Linz:1990:234) cannot possibly be met therefore
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The *turing machine*, not an inaccurate simulation. The measurement of correct is what H^ applied to <H^> does.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies a different sequence of configurations than
>>>>>>>>>> the simulation of ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ by embedded_H.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you're answering the wrong question. The question being asked is "Does H^ applied to <H^> halt?",
>>>>>>>> No that is not the freaking question you freaking nitwit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The question is: Does the input specify a sequence of configurations
>>>>>>>> that would reach their own final state?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FALSE. From Linz:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linz is wrong too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nope. The above is a stipulative definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is incorrect to disagree with stipulative definitions.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipulative_definition
>>>>>
>>>>> Disagreeing with a stipulative definition is like disagreeing with
>>>>> arithmetic.
>>>>>
>>>>> When in BASIC we say let X = 5,
>>>>> disagreeing that X has the value of 5 is incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Because we know that a halt decider must compute the mapping
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>>>> FROM ITS INPUTS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone that says it must compute the mapping from non-inputs such as Ĥ
>>>>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ IS FREAKING WRONG !!!
>>>>>
>>>>> You're wrong because you're disagreeing with a stipulative definition.
>>>> When a textbook disagrees with fundamental principles of computer
>>>> science the textbook loses.
>>>
>>> Nope. You disagreed with a stipulative definition.
>>>
>>> No matter how wrong you think it is that I want to know if there's a cat in your kitchen, if you don't tell me if you have a cat in your kitchen you're answering the wrong question.
>> You are back to simply playing head games with no regard for the actual
>> truth what-so-ever.
>
> That you can't understand what I'm trying to tell you doesn't mean I'm playing head games.
>


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
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 by: Python - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 20:55 UTC

Crank Peter Olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 1:59 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>>>> specifications.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>>> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know this
>>> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>>
>> Bold words from someone who can't write what's effectively a "hello
>> world" TM.
>
> It is not the tedious details about writing a TM that are most important.

It is not tedious, asshole, it is the basics.

You are braging about this for 17 years and you end up to be unable to
write down a single TM for the simpliest case. This is pathetic.

I was playing with TM when I was 14 years old, Peter, spending the
whole summer defining a lot of them to perform arithmetic, solving
equations, etc. then I studied CS for years and I spotted how TMs are
important. YOU ARE A COMPLETE FAILURE AND A HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING,
we won't mourn.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:02 UTC

On 4/6/2022 3:55 PM, Python wrote:
> Crank Peter Olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 1:59 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>>>>> specifications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>>>> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know
>>>> this
>>>> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>>>
>>> Bold words from someone who can't write what's effectively a "hello
>>> world" TM.
>>
>> It is not the tedious details about writing a TM that are most important.
>
> It is not tedious, asshole, it is the basics.
>
> You are braging about this for 17 years and you end up to be unable to
> write down a single TM for the simpliest case. This is pathetic.
>
> I was playing with TM when I was 14 years old, Peter, spending the
> whole summer defining a lot of them to perform arithmetic, solving
> equations, etc. then I studied CS for years and I spotted how TMs are
> important. YOU ARE A COMPLETE FAILURE AND A HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING,
> we won't mourn.
>
>

Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2l0i6$1aac$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29504&group=comp.theory#29504

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From: pyt...@example.invalid (Python)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:27:00 +0200
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 by: Python - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:27 UTC

Crank Peter Olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 3:55 PM, Python wrote:
>> Crank Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 1:59 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>>>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>>>>>> specifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>>>>> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know
>>>>> this
>>>>> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>>>>
>>>> Bold words from someone who can't write what's effectively a "hello
>>>> world" TM.
>>>
>>> It is not the tedious details about writing a TM that are most
>>> important.
>>
>> It is not tedious, asshole, it is the basics.
>>
>> You are braging about this for 17 years and you end up to be unable to
>> write down a single TM for the simpliest case. This is pathetic.
>>
>> I was playing with TM when I was 14 years old, Peter, spending the
>> whole summer defining a lot of them to perform arithmetic, solving
>> equations, etc. then I studied CS for years and I spotted how TMs are
>> important. YOU ARE A COMPLETE FAILURE AND A HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING,
>> we won't mourn.
>>
>>
>
> Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version
> Judge not, that ye be not judged.
>
> For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what
> measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

You pretended to judge people. You lied, you are arrogant and
ignorant.

YOU will be punished for that. Burn in Hell.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<87zgkxgaot.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29506&group=comp.theory#29506

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:32 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2022 1:38 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 06/04/2022 15:29, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> It's obvious that PO has never specified a Turing machine, or else he would
>>>>> just dash off a machine to decide the even numbers.
>>>>> But he knows what a Turing machine is, and he understands the quintuple
>>>>> notation. So I think that with a bit of effort, he's capable of
>>>>> writing such a machine.
>>>> You'd think so. I wonder what the problem is. It can't be fear of
>>>> getting it wrong because he can exhaustively test it using things like:
>>>
>>> I think he simply doesn't see the point in wasting his time on it.
>>>
>>> Is PO cooperating in this learning exercise because he understands
>>> that he doesn't know enough about TMs to make arguments about them?
>>> Or that he is intellectually curious about them and wants to
>>> understand the fundamentals better?
>>>
>>> I don't think anything like that applies - PO believes that his claims
>>> are correct, and that other people don't agree /because of the
>>> language he is using/ to express the claims. He believes that by
>>> cooperating with you, he might learn the Right Way to express his
>>> claims, then you and everybody else will understand him and agree he
>>> is correct. I.e. he wants to "learn the right words to say" rather
>>> than "learn the fundamental concepts involved".
>> Sure. He's said that quite explicitly.
>>
>>> PO probably realises that constructing an actual TM will not give him
>>> any "handy new words" that will convince anyone that his claims are
>>> correct - and he's quite right in that respect. So why waste time on
>>> it? (Purely from /his/ perspective.) I suppose he might do it if he
>>> thought he would learn the Right Words in lesson 2, and that you
>>> wouldn't give him lesson 2 unless he writes the TM you want in lesson
>>> 1...
>> That's the plan. I want an actual fully encoded TM as example to set
>> exercises about specifying TM's that (informally) decide things about
>> TMs and TM computations.
>> But I admit I am used to this going so much faster. The medium is part
>> of it, I am used to students who can sketch a simple TM in a few seconds
>> on a whiteboard during a tutorial.
>>
>
> Unless this also makes progress towards a mutual understanding of all
> of the details of this:
>
> Does the input specify a sequence of configurations that would reach
> their own final state?

You will never know because you seem to have decided not to do the
exercises. It was painful just getting a rather vague specification for
E so I am not confident that you could manage the next stage where we
would look at specifying TMs that decide properties of encoded
computations (like the halting problem).

> It is pointless.
>
> I did get the TM interpreter to compile this morning. That could have
> been the potentially most time consuming step.
>
> This is my 8th day after chemo and I still feel pretty good.

What a strange hobby you have... I spent last night in the company of
21 assorted dogs (not all at once). Much more fun. Are you having fun?

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<87tub5gaky.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29507&group=comp.theory#29507

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:34 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>> specifications.
>>>
>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>
> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know
> this better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.

Know what better than I? You just about managed a specification for E,
and that was rather vague.

Anyway, I eagerly await E...

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

<87o81dgah5.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:36 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On 06/04/2022 02:57, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> [I wrote:]
>>>>> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
>>>>> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
>>>>> students who visited two or three years later: [...].
>>>>
>>>> What used to be called a "conversion MSc"?
>>>
>>> Yes, and no. We didn't think of it that way, as we treated CS
>>> as just another branch of maths -- all of our students did some, just
>>> as they all did some statistics, and quite a lot chose to do CS options
>>> in the third year. From that PoV, it was a continuation rather than a
>>> conversion MSc, offering more advanced CS [and statistics, ...] than
>>> had been in the BSc. But it could have been a conversion for students
>>> coming with [maths] BScs from other places.
>> Ours was more genuinely conversion as we took students with, in theory,
>> any background at all -- philosophy, English, history, whatever. In
>> general those with maths, physics and EE backgrounds has fewer problems,
>> but the MSc (in contrast to the BSc) was deliberately designed to have
>> less theory in it.
>>
>>> [...]
>>>>> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
>>>>> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want. I wonder how he
>>>>> would get on with similar exercises in C, [...].
>>>> Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
>>>> one TM accurately specified, let alone written.
>>>
>>> You [and others] know this, yet persist! I suppose there is
>>> some interest in knowing what the next wriggle will be?
>> I just wonder when he'll stop the "tutorial".
>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>
> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>
> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the
> universe disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.

Good to see that you are still asserting that false is the correct
result from a halt decider for at least one halting computation.

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 22:13 UTC

On 4/6/2022 4:32 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 1:38 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 06/04/2022 15:29, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's obvious that PO has never specified a Turing machine, or else he would
>>>>>> just dash off a machine to decide the even numbers.
>>>>>> But he knows what a Turing machine is, and he understands the quintuple
>>>>>> notation. So I think that with a bit of effort, he's capable of
>>>>>> writing such a machine.
>>>>> You'd think so. I wonder what the problem is. It can't be fear of
>>>>> getting it wrong because he can exhaustively test it using things like:
>>>>
>>>> I think he simply doesn't see the point in wasting his time on it.
>>>>
>>>> Is PO cooperating in this learning exercise because he understands
>>>> that he doesn't know enough about TMs to make arguments about them?
>>>> Or that he is intellectually curious about them and wants to
>>>> understand the fundamentals better?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think anything like that applies - PO believes that his claims
>>>> are correct, and that other people don't agree /because of the
>>>> language he is using/ to express the claims. He believes that by
>>>> cooperating with you, he might learn the Right Way to express his
>>>> claims, then you and everybody else will understand him and agree he
>>>> is correct. I.e. he wants to "learn the right words to say" rather
>>>> than "learn the fundamental concepts involved".
>>> Sure. He's said that quite explicitly.
>>>
>>>> PO probably realises that constructing an actual TM will not give him
>>>> any "handy new words" that will convince anyone that his claims are
>>>> correct - and he's quite right in that respect. So why waste time on
>>>> it? (Purely from /his/ perspective.) I suppose he might do it if he
>>>> thought he would learn the Right Words in lesson 2, and that you
>>>> wouldn't give him lesson 2 unless he writes the TM you want in lesson
>>>> 1...
>>> That's the plan. I want an actual fully encoded TM as example to set
>>> exercises about specifying TM's that (informally) decide things about
>>> TMs and TM computations.
>>> But I admit I am used to this going so much faster. The medium is part
>>> of it, I am used to students who can sketch a simple TM in a few seconds
>>> on a whiteboard during a tutorial.
>>>
>>
>> Unless this also makes progress towards a mutual understanding of all
>> of the details of this:
>>
>> Does the input specify a sequence of configurations that would reach
>> their own final state?
>
> You will never know because you seem to have decided not to do the
> exercises. It was painful just getting a rather vague specification for
> E so I am not confident that you could manage the next stage where we
> would look at specifying TMs that decide properties of encoded
> computations (like the halting problem).
>
>> It is pointless.
>>
>> I did get the TM interpreter to compile this morning. That could have
>> been the potentially most time consuming step.
>>
>> This is my 8th day after chemo and I still feel pretty good.
>
> What a strange hobby you have... I spent last night in the company of
> 21 assorted dogs (not all at once). Much more fun. Are you having fun?
>

Chemotherapy is not a hobby.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 22:14 UTC

On 4/6/2022 4:34 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>>> specifications.
>>>>
>>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>>
>> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know
>> this better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>
> Know what better than I? You just about managed a specification for E,
> and that was rather vague.
>
> Anyway, I eagerly await E...
>

The interpreter compiled and 15 pages of documentation have been
formatted so that I can more easily study them. I can probably skip most
of these pages.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 22:16 UTC

On 4/6/2022 4:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 06/04/2022 02:57, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> [I wrote:]
>>>>>> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
>>>>>> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
>>>>>> students who visited two or three years later: [...].
>>>>>
>>>>> What used to be called a "conversion MSc"?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and no. We didn't think of it that way, as we treated CS
>>>> as just another branch of maths -- all of our students did some, just
>>>> as they all did some statistics, and quite a lot chose to do CS options
>>>> in the third year. From that PoV, it was a continuation rather than a
>>>> conversion MSc, offering more advanced CS [and statistics, ...] than
>>>> had been in the BSc. But it could have been a conversion for students
>>>> coming with [maths] BScs from other places.
>>> Ours was more genuinely conversion as we took students with, in theory,
>>> any background at all -- philosophy, English, history, whatever. In
>>> general those with maths, physics and EE backgrounds has fewer problems,
>>> but the MSc (in contrast to the BSc) was deliberately designed to have
>>> less theory in it.
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
>>>>>> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want. I wonder how he
>>>>>> would get on with similar exercises in C, [...].
>>>>> Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
>>>>> one TM accurately specified, let alone written.
>>>>
>>>> You [and others] know this, yet persist! I suppose there is
>>>> some interest in knowing what the next wriggle will be?
>>> I just wonder when he'll stop the "tutorial".
>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>
>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>
>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the
>> universe disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>
> Good to see that you are still asserting that false is the correct
> result from a halt decider for at least one halting computation.
>

If the input to the halt decider specifies a non-halting sequence of
configurations then any damn thing anywhere else is totally irrelevant.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<87ilrlg5cd.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:27 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2022 4:32 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/6/2022 1:38 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 06/04/2022 15:29, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's obvious that PO has never specified a Turing machine, or else he would
>>>>>>> just dash off a machine to decide the even numbers.
>>>>>>> But he knows what a Turing machine is, and he understands the quintuple
>>>>>>> notation. So I think that with a bit of effort, he's capable of
>>>>>>> writing such a machine.
>>>>>> You'd think so. I wonder what the problem is. It can't be fear of
>>>>>> getting it wrong because he can exhaustively test it using things like:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think he simply doesn't see the point in wasting his time on it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is PO cooperating in this learning exercise because he understands
>>>>> that he doesn't know enough about TMs to make arguments about them?
>>>>> Or that he is intellectually curious about them and wants to
>>>>> understand the fundamentals better?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think anything like that applies - PO believes that his claims
>>>>> are correct, and that other people don't agree /because of the
>>>>> language he is using/ to express the claims. He believes that by
>>>>> cooperating with you, he might learn the Right Way to express his
>>>>> claims, then you and everybody else will understand him and agree he
>>>>> is correct. I.e. he wants to "learn the right words to say" rather
>>>>> than "learn the fundamental concepts involved".
>>>> Sure. He's said that quite explicitly.
>>>>
>>>>> PO probably realises that constructing an actual TM will not give him
>>>>> any "handy new words" that will convince anyone that his claims are
>>>>> correct - and he's quite right in that respect. So why waste time on
>>>>> it? (Purely from /his/ perspective.) I suppose he might do it if he
>>>>> thought he would learn the Right Words in lesson 2, and that you
>>>>> wouldn't give him lesson 2 unless he writes the TM you want in lesson
>>>>> 1...
>>>> That's the plan. I want an actual fully encoded TM as example to set
>>>> exercises about specifying TM's that (informally) decide things about
>>>> TMs and TM computations.
>>>> But I admit I am used to this going so much faster. The medium is part
>>>> of it, I am used to students who can sketch a simple TM in a few seconds
>>>> on a whiteboard during a tutorial.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unless this also makes progress towards a mutual understanding of all
>>> of the details of this:
>>>
>>> Does the input specify a sequence of configurations that would reach
>>> their own final state?
>> You will never know because you seem to have decided not to do the
>> exercises. It was painful just getting a rather vague specification for
>> E so I am not confident that you could manage the next stage where we
>> would look at specifying TMs that decide properties of encoded
>> computations (like the halting problem).
>>
>>> It is pointless.
>>>
>>> I did get the TM interpreter to compile this morning. That could have
>>> been the potentially most time consuming step.
>>>
>>> This is my 8th day after chemo and I still feel pretty good.
>> What a strange hobby you have... I spent last night in the company of
>> 21 assorted dogs (not all at once). Much more fun. Are you having fun?
>>
>
> Chemotherapy is not a hobby.

Of course not. Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
posting here?

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

<87czhtg4z7.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 00:35:40 +0100
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:35 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2022 4:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>>
>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>>
>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the
>>> universe disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>>
>> Good to see that you are still asserting that false is the correct
>> result from a halt decider for at least one halting computation.
>
> If the input to the halt decider specifies a non-halting sequence of
> configurations then any damn thing anywhere else is totally
> irrelevant.

If P(P) halts, H(P,P) should be true. The "input" to H is two
parameters that specify the halting computation P(P). So here's another
question you can't answer: what two arguments must be passed to H for H
to tell us whether P(P) halts or not?

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 17:35:50 -0600
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 by: André G. Isaak - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:35 UTC

On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you to say
>>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but I'll
>>>> take it.
>>>
>>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.
>>
>> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not going to
>> push the matter.
>>
>
> Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite string
> transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite string is the
> only data type ever needed.

I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing Machines
always work with finite strings.

However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative. After
all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted symbols.
Unless you describe how information is actually encoded in those finite
strings, you're not conveying anything useful.

That needs to be part of the specification of any Turing Machine: given
the problem I wish to solve, how do I encode the information required to
solve it in a way such that it can be passed to the Turing Machine?

An x86 system only deals with strings of binary digits, but we still
talk about integers, floats, characters, pointers, etc. when talking
about x86 programs since we need to know what those strings of binary
digits actually represent. We don't just use 'string of binary digits'
as our only data type.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:39 UTC

On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 4:32 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/6/2022 1:38 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 06/04/2022 15:29, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's obvious that PO has never specified a Turing machine, or else he would
>>>>>>>> just dash off a machine to decide the even numbers.
>>>>>>>> But he knows what a Turing machine is, and he understands the quintuple
>>>>>>>> notation. So I think that with a bit of effort, he's capable of
>>>>>>>> writing such a machine.
>>>>>>> You'd think so. I wonder what the problem is. It can't be fear of
>>>>>>> getting it wrong because he can exhaustively test it using things like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think he simply doesn't see the point in wasting his time on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is PO cooperating in this learning exercise because he understands
>>>>>> that he doesn't know enough about TMs to make arguments about them?
>>>>>> Or that he is intellectually curious about them and wants to
>>>>>> understand the fundamentals better?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think anything like that applies - PO believes that his claims
>>>>>> are correct, and that other people don't agree /because of the
>>>>>> language he is using/ to express the claims. He believes that by
>>>>>> cooperating with you, he might learn the Right Way to express his
>>>>>> claims, then you and everybody else will understand him and agree he
>>>>>> is correct. I.e. he wants to "learn the right words to say" rather
>>>>>> than "learn the fundamental concepts involved".
>>>>> Sure. He's said that quite explicitly.
>>>>>
>>>>>> PO probably realises that constructing an actual TM will not give him
>>>>>> any "handy new words" that will convince anyone that his claims are
>>>>>> correct - and he's quite right in that respect. So why waste time on
>>>>>> it? (Purely from /his/ perspective.) I suppose he might do it if he
>>>>>> thought he would learn the Right Words in lesson 2, and that you
>>>>>> wouldn't give him lesson 2 unless he writes the TM you want in lesson
>>>>>> 1...
>>>>> That's the plan. I want an actual fully encoded TM as example to set
>>>>> exercises about specifying TM's that (informally) decide things about
>>>>> TMs and TM computations.
>>>>> But I admit I am used to this going so much faster. The medium is part
>>>>> of it, I am used to students who can sketch a simple TM in a few seconds
>>>>> on a whiteboard during a tutorial.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unless this also makes progress towards a mutual understanding of all
>>>> of the details of this:
>>>>
>>>> Does the input specify a sequence of configurations that would reach
>>>> their own final state?
>>> You will never know because you seem to have decided not to do the
>>> exercises. It was painful just getting a rather vague specification for
>>> E so I am not confident that you could manage the next stage where we
>>> would look at specifying TMs that decide properties of encoded
>>> computations (like the halting problem).
>>>
>>>> It is pointless.
>>>>
>>>> I did get the TM interpreter to compile this morning. That could have
>>>> been the potentially most time consuming step.
>>>>
>>>> This is my 8th day after chemo and I still feel pretty good.
>>> What a strange hobby you have... I spent last night in the company of
>>> 21 assorted dogs (not all at once). Much more fun. Are you having fun?
>>>
>>
>> Chemotherapy is not a hobby.
>
> Of course not. Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
> posting here?
>

I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur. I have
my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
(very difficult to understand) sentence.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<871qy9g4kf.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 00:44:32 +0100
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:44 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
>> posting here?
>
> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.

That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.

> I have
> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
> (very difficult to understand) sentence.

Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
unravelling!

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:45 UTC

On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 4:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>>>
>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>>>
>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the
>>>> universe disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>>>
>>> Good to see that you are still asserting that false is the correct
>>> result from a halt decider for at least one halting computation.
>>
>> If the input to the halt decider specifies a non-halting sequence of
>> configurations then any damn thing anywhere else is totally
>> irrelevant.
>
> If P(P) halts, H(P,P) should be true.

Like I said any damn thing else is actually 100% perfectly totally
irrelevant.

> The "input" to H is two
> parameters that specify the halting computation P(P).

A halting computation that cannot possibly reach its own final state
under any condition what-so-ever?

The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its own final state under any
condition what-so-ever, thus if God and all his angels and every being
great and small said that the input to H specifies a halting computation
they would all be liars.

> So here's another
> question you can't answer: what two arguments must be passed to H for H
> to tell us whether P(P) halts or not?

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:47 UTC

On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 00:35:54 UTC+1, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
> > On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy if S represents an even number
> >>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn otherwise.
> >>>> Yeah! That's a good forst stab at it. I'd have preferred you to say
> >>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but I'll
> >>>> take it.
> >>>
> >>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.
> >>
> >> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not going to
> >> push the matter.
> >>
> >
> > Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite string
> > transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite string is the
> > only data type ever needed.
>
>
> I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing Machines
> always work with finite strings.
>
> However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative. After
> all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted symbols.
> Unless you describe how information is actually encoded in those finite
> strings, you're not conveying anything useful.
>
It's not saying nothing, but it's not saying enough to help us build
computer programs.
HIllel's response to a similar proposition (denying the validity of the oral
law) was "how do you know that letter is aleph whilst that one
is bet?".

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 23:53 UTC

On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>>>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you to say
>>>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but I'll
>>>>> take it.
>>>>
>>>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.
>>>
>>> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not going to
>>> push the matter.
>>>
>>
>> Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite string
>> transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite string is the
>> only data type ever needed.
>
>
> I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing Machines
> always work with finite strings.
>
> However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative. After
> all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted symbols.
> Unless you describe how information is actually encoded in those finite
> strings, you're not conveying anything useful.
>
> That needs to be part of the specification of any Turing Machine: given
> the problem I wish to solve, how do I encode the information required to
> solve it in a way such that it can be passed to the Turing Machine?
>

We encode it as a stack of pizzas fifty feet high of course, because we
know that pizzas (not finite strings) are an elemental data type of TMs.

> An x86 system only deals with strings of binary digits, but we still
> talk about integers, floats, characters, pointers, etc. when talking
> about x86 programs since we need to know what those strings of binary
> digits actually represent. We don't just use 'string of binary digits'
> as our only data type.
>
> André
>

We already know that the encoding is going to be finite strings. If we
had a much more robust language such as C++ we could have a daylight
savings time type and all kinds of other types.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2l9u5$s78$1@dont-email.me>

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Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:06 UTC

On 2022-04-06 17:53, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>>>>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you to say
>>>>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but I'll
>>>>>> take it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.
>>>>
>>>> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not going to
>>>> push the matter.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite string
>>> transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite string is the
>>> only data type ever needed.
>>
>>
>> I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing Machines
>> always work with finite strings.
>>
>> However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative. After
>> all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted symbols.
>> Unless you describe how information is actually encoded in those
>> finite strings, you're not conveying anything useful.
>>
>> That needs to be part of the specification of any Turing Machine:
>> given the problem I wish to solve, how do I encode the information
>> required to solve it in a way such that it can be passed to the Turing
>> Machine?
>>
>
> We encode it as a stack of pizzas fifty feet high of course, because we
> know that pizzas (not finite strings) are an elemental data type of TMs.

As usual, you are going to great lengths to entirely miss the point.

Here is an example of a finite string: "♢♥♣♥♥♢◳". Should an evenness
decider such as E accept or reject this string? What about '1320'?

Evenness is a property of integers, not strings. Without actually
specifying how we encode integers as strings, the above question is
unanswerable.

You can't just say 'we encode the input as a finite string'. You need to
specify which alphabet the string is constructed from and how we
construct strings to encode the specific information we are interested
in (which generally is not a string) as a string.

André

--
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