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If I can have honesty, it's easier to overlook mistakes. -- Kirk, "Space Seed", stardate 3141.9


devel / comp.theory / Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

SubjectAuthor
* My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Deolcott
+- _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
+* _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_DenniB.H.
|+* _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
||+- _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
||`* _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_DenniB.H.
|| `* _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_DenniB.H.
||  `* _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
||   `- _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
|`* My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike,Ben
| +* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
| |+- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Richard Damon
| |`* My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike,Ben
| | `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
| |  `- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
| `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_B.H.
|  +* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
|  |`- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Richard Damon
|  +* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Jeff Barnett
|  |`* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_B.H.
|  | +- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
|  | `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Jeff Barnett
|  |  +- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
|  |  `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_B.H.
|  |   `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Malcolm McLean
|  |    +- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Richard Damon
|  |    `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
|  |     +* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Malcolm McLean
|  |     |`* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
|  |     | +* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Malcolm McLean
|  |     | |`* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |     | | +- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
|  |     | | `- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |     | `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Richard Damon
|  |     |  `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_Malcolm McLean
|  |     |   `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |     |    +- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
|  |     |    `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_DenniMalcolm McLean
|  |     |     `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |     |      +- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
|  |     |      `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_DenniMalcolm McLean
|  |     |       `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |     |        +- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
|  |     |        `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_DenniMalcolm McLean
|  |     |         `- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |     +- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Richard Damon
|  |     `* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Andy Walker
|  |      `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |       `- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
|  +* My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike,Ben
|  |+- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Richard Damon
|  |+* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
|  ||`- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,Richard Damon
|  |`* _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_B.H.
|  | `* My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike,Ben
|  |  `* _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
|  |   `- _My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon
|  `- _My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,olcott
`* _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mikeolcott
 `- _My_dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_MikeRichard Damon

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Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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From: jbb...@notatt.com (Jeff Barnett)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,
_Dennis,_Richard
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:51:17 -0600
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 by: Jeff Barnett - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 03:51 UTC

On 4/15/2022 8:14 PM, B.H. wrote:
> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 8:15:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>> On 4/15/2022 5:23 PM, B.H. wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:31:21 PM UTC-4, Ben wrote:
>>>> "B.H." <xlt...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:17:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is a sufficient reason to say that H is non-halting, but how would
>>>>> H, the algorithm itself, report that?
>>>> By returning false. The key case PO obsesses about is H(P,P) with P
>>>> defined as, very roughly
>>>>
>>>> void P(ptr x) { if (H(x, x)) while (1); }
>>>>
>>>> PO tells us, contrary to the facts, that H(P,P) == false is correct even
>>>> though P(P) obviously "halts" (i.e. returns in this C formulation).
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ben.
>>>
>>> Although I am not familiar with the idea of inputting functions to functions in C, and have never seen "ptr" as the syntax for pointers (I don't like pointers and haven't used them in a while, but usually I used * in school), but you would appear to have said something incorrect...it looks like P(P) would not halt because H, presumably a direct simulator of P on P until P halts on its input, would never halt, thus P would never return at all...it would never halt.
>> No, you have it wrong - maybe the CIA effected your brain. However, 1) H
>> is my assumption (hypothesis) a halt decider and 2) by definition a
>> decider is halting function/computation that returns a decision for any
>> arguments. In other words, it MUST halt by the very definition of
>> things. No waffle, no wiggle, no PO poop or bull shit. The fact that the
>> idiot is trying to use a simulator as a decider is an error and,
>> depending on how you say it or define terms, the only categorical error
>> in this discussion.
>
> You are acting like an angry jerk who is angry for no reason who knows nothing about CS but would like to claim that you know something.
>
> I won't get too involved in an insult battle here--you post less obnoxious stuff than "wij"--but your comments make it sound like you don't know what you're talking about and want to insult me. You'll be thrilled to note I'm less sensitive about insult and "betrayals," not that you were on my side last time I checked the boolean friendliness flags.

That's almost all you ever get involved in. I see that projection is
also one of your methods. Too bad.

> Since you talk to Peter Olcott a lot and he said he is dying, why not be nicer to him? I've said that before, haven't I? If you want something in life beyond entertainment on the internet, which you probably do, you could probably say things that sound witty/funny enough without trying to trample others emotionally. In particular, you are more likely to "look like a decent respectable person worth knowing" if you joke around without insulting someone who has claimed to be near death. An at-least partly sincere friendly "goodbye message" would be a nice touch if you want to look better in your community. You might say your brand is "irreverent jerk who likes math," but that is game-theoretically dominated by "irreverent humorous person who shows a little respect for people in trouble and doesn't damage other people emotionally or otherwise and likes math." Not all brands, personal, professional, or corporate, are created equal.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.

> I mostly forgot my previous conversations with you, so at least they aren't bothering/haunting me these days. You don't always know what strangers on the internet are dealing with in their personal lives, so it's "better safe than sorry" as a general rule about starting fights with people and agitating them.

To you, all I can say is "0"! And for you, a self proclaimed algorithm
giant and math giant let's see what's going on here: 1) you don't know
that a decider, by definition must halt and announce a decision, 2) you
don't know that a halt decider IS a decider. I think your claims of
competence let alone special competence are crap. Do a little home work
before you try to claim the Field's prize (or) or the ACM Touring award.

> -Philip White a 0--
Jeff Barnett

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 04:17 UTC

On 4/15/2022 10:51 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 4/15/2022 8:14 PM, B.H. wrote:
>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 8:15:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>> On 4/15/2022 5:23 PM, B.H. wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:31:21 PM UTC-4, Ben wrote:
>>>>> "B.H." <xlt...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:17:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a sufficient reason to say that H is non-halting, but how would
>>>>>> H, the algorithm itself, report that?
>>>>> By returning false. The key case PO obsesses about is H(P,P) with P
>>>>> defined as, very roughly
>>>>>
>>>>> void P(ptr x) { if (H(x, x)) while (1); }
>>>>>
>>>>> PO tells us, contrary to the facts, that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>>> even
>>>>> though P(P) obviously "halts" (i.e. returns in this C formulation).
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ben.
>>>>
>>>> Although I am not familiar with the idea of inputting functions to
>>>> functions in C, and have never seen "ptr" as the syntax for pointers
>>>> (I don't like pointers and haven't used them in a while, but usually
>>>> I used * in school), but you would appear to have said something
>>>> incorrect...it looks like P(P) would not halt because H, presumably
>>>> a direct simulator of P on P until P halts on its input, would never
>>>> halt, thus P would never return at all...it would never halt.
>>> No, you have it wrong - maybe the CIA effected your brain. However, 1) H
>>> is my assumption (hypothesis) a halt decider and 2) by definition a
>>> decider is halting function/computation that returns a decision for any
>>> arguments. In other words, it MUST halt by the very definition of
>>> things. No waffle, no wiggle, no PO poop or bull shit. The fact that the
>>> idiot is trying to use a simulator as a decider is an error and,
>>> depending on how you say it or define terms, the only categorical error
>>> in this discussion.
>>
>> You are acting like an angry jerk who is angry for no reason who knows
>> nothing about CS but would like to claim that you know something.
>>
>> I won't get too involved in an insult battle here--you post less
>> obnoxious stuff than "wij"--but your comments make it sound like you
>> don't know what you're talking about and want to insult me.  You'll be
>> thrilled to note I'm less sensitive about insult and "betrayals," not
>> that you were on my side last time I checked the boolean friendliness
>> flags.
>
> That's almost all you ever get involved in. I see that projection is
> also one of your methods. Too bad.
>
>> Since you talk to Peter Olcott a lot and he said he is dying, why not
>> be nicer to him?  I've said that before, haven't I?  If you want
>> something in life beyond entertainment on the internet, which you
>> probably do, you could probably say things that sound witty/funny
>> enough without trying to trample others emotionally.  In particular,
>> you are more likely to "look like a decent respectable person worth
>> knowing" if you joke around without insulting someone who has claimed
>> to be near death.  An at-least partly sincere friendly "goodbye
>> message" would be a nice touch if you want to look better in your
>> community.  You might say your brand is "irreverent jerk who likes
>> math," but that is game-theoretically dominated by "irreverent
>> humorous person who shows a little respect for people in trouble and
>> doesn't damage other people emotionally or otherwise and likes math."
>> Not all brands, personal, professional, or corporate, are created equal.
>
> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>
>> I mostly forgot my previous conversations with you, so at least they
>> aren't bothering/haunting me these days.  You don't always know what
>> strangers on the internet are dealing with in their personal lives, so
>> it's "better safe than sorry" as a general rule about starting fights
>> with people and agitating them.
>
> To you, all I can say is "0"! And for you, a self proclaimed algorithm
> giant and math giant let's see what's going on here: 1) you don't know
> that a decider, by definition must halt and announce a decision, 2) you
> don't know that a halt decider IS a decider. I think your claims of
> competence let alone special competence are crap. Do a little home work
> before you try to claim the Field's prize (or) or the ACM Touring award.

You are simply a very mean person.
Actual supernatural karma is a real thing, its in the bible.

I think that this may be the first time that Phillip has ever heard of
the halting problem. For a first time he is doing an excellent job.

>
>> -Philip White a 0--
> Jeff Barnett

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 04:30 UTC

On 4/15/2022 6:23 PM, B.H. wrote:
> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:31:21 PM UTC-4, Ben wrote:
>> "B.H." <xlt...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:17:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>
>>> It is a sufficient reason to say that H is non-halting, but how would
>>> H, the algorithm itself, report that?
>> By returning false. The key case PO obsesses about is H(P,P) with P
>> defined as, very roughly
>>
>> void P(ptr x) { if (H(x, x)) while (1); }
>>
>> PO tells us, contrary to the facts, that H(P,P) == false is correct even
>> though P(P) obviously "halts" (i.e. returns in this C formulation).
>>
>> --
>> Ben.
>
> Although I am not familiar with the idea of inputting functions to functions in C, and have never seen "ptr" as the syntax for pointers (I don't like pointers and haven't used them in a while, but usually I used * in school), but you would appear to have said something incorrect...it looks like P(P) would not halt because H, presumably a direct simulator of P on P until P halts on its input, would never halt, thus P would never return at all...it would never halt.
>

You have done amazingly well on this Phillip.

> Ahh, the thrill of victory...it's like playing Pendulum Castle [1], but easier, from Super Mario once again.
>
> -Philip White (philipjwhite@yahoo.com)
>
> [1] For the Philip White analysis freaks (/scholars) out there: Actually, Pendulum Castle is very hard...it's in the secret world, and not to excite you too much with more fun facts about the secrets of my personal life, but I actually played it over 100 times before I beat it, years ago. The truth is, I think I only beat it once. Now that's what I call tenacity.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_
Richard
From: xlt....@gmail.com (B.H.)
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 by: B.H. - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:31 UTC

On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 4/15/2022 8:14 PM, B.H. wrote:
> > On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 8:15:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> >> On 4/15/2022 5:23 PM, B.H. wrote:
> >>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 6:31:21 PM UTC-4, Ben wrote:
> >>>> "B.H." <xlt...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 5:17:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> It is a sufficient reason to say that H is non-halting, but how would
> >>>>> H, the algorithm itself, report that?
> >>>> By returning false. The key case PO obsesses about is H(P,P) with P
> >>>> defined as, very roughly
> >>>>
> >>>> void P(ptr x) { if (H(x, x)) while (1); }
> >>>>
> >>>> PO tells us, contrary to the facts, that H(P,P) == false is correct even
> >>>> though P(P) obviously "halts" (i.e. returns in this C formulation).
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Ben.
> >>>
> >>> Although I am not familiar with the idea of inputting functions to functions in C, and have never seen "ptr" as the syntax for pointers (I don't like pointers and haven't used them in a while, but usually I used * in school), but you would appear to have said something incorrect...it looks like P(P) would not halt because H, presumably a direct simulator of P on P until P halts on its input, would never halt, thus P would never return at all...it would never halt.
> >> No, you have it wrong - maybe the CIA effected your brain. However, 1) H
> >> is my assumption (hypothesis) a halt decider and 2) by definition a
> >> decider is halting function/computation that returns a decision for any
> >> arguments. In other words, it MUST halt by the very definition of
> >> things. No waffle, no wiggle, no PO poop or bull shit. The fact that the
> >> idiot is trying to use a simulator as a decider is an error and,
> >> depending on how you say it or define terms, the only categorical error
> >> in this discussion.
> >
> > You are acting like an angry jerk who is angry for no reason who knows nothing about CS but would like to claim that you know something.
> >
> > I won't get too involved in an insult battle here--you post less obnoxious stuff than "wij"--but your comments make it sound like you don't know what you're talking about and want to insult me. You'll be thrilled to note I'm less sensitive about insult and "betrayals," not that you were on my side last time I checked the boolean friendliness flags.
> That's almost all you ever get involved in. I see that projection is
> also one of your methods. Too bad.

This isn't a polite response, but I'll respond.

I would get involved in more substantive discussions, at this time anyway, if they existed on this thread. As I've noted, I never start (non-consensual) insult fights...that is a good policy that I believe gets me treated with more respect, in spite of challenges I've faced.

I'm not projecting; the difference, when it comes to "insult matches," is capability vs. preference.

> > Since you talk to Peter Olcott a lot and he said he is dying, why not be nicer to him? I've said that before, haven't I? If you want something in life beyond entertainment on the internet, which you probably do, you could probably say things that sound witty/funny enough without trying to trample others emotionally. In particular, you are more likely to "look like a decent respectable person worth knowing" if you joke around without insulting someone who has claimed to be near death. An at-least partly sincere friendly "goodbye message" would be a nice touch if you want to look better in your community. You might say your brand is "irreverent jerk who likes math," but that is game-theoretically dominated by "irreverent humorous person who shows a little respect for people in trouble and doesn't damage other people emotionally or otherwise and likes math." Not all brands, personal, professional, or corporate, are created equal.
> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will

You think there is no such thing as cancer?

> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It

What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is your choice.

> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.

His brain sounds fine to me. Also, why is it morally wrong or worthy of criticism to have a sick brain or sick, e.g., stomach? Not everyone can be healthy, it can be quietly very angering to blast people who are sick; your perspective is probably more of a "get over it and don't whine" perspective, but "not insulting others to possibly devastate them emotionally or others who might be watching and empathizing" is a good rule to follow, too. There is more than just one rule worth following in the world, neglecting the idea of lengthy conjunctions.

> > I mostly forgot my previous conversations with you, so at least they aren't bothering/haunting me these days. You don't always know what strangers on the internet are dealing with in their personal lives, so it's "better safe than sorry" as a general rule about starting fights with people and agitating them.
> To you, all I can say is "0"! And for you, a self proclaimed algorithm
> giant and math giant let's see what's going on here: 1) you don't know

Did you understand my algorithm?

> that a decider, by definition must halt and announce a decision, 2) you
> don't know that a halt decider IS a decider. I think your claims of
> competence let alone special competence are crap. Do a little home work
> before you try to claim the Field's prize (or) or the ACM Touring award.
>

....you should read a textbook, there are different ways to define TMs. I think might have been in Sipser's ITTOC book, but I don't know. I'm not familiar with the term "decider," but if you mean Turing machine, you can devise TMs that never halt, TMs that merely halt without accepting or rejecting, and TMs that halt and either accept or reject. Also, by Turing's proof, there is technically no such thing as a "halt decider." Also, there are plenty of different conventions, for TMs. People are not TMs; people a sense of emotions, sensitivities, and measurable levels of health, and that is worth considering when you interact with a person as opposed to just a TM, which makes no choices.

I've done plenty of homework. My "[e]special[ly high level of] competence" is rooted in my talent, and the fact that I've studied a lot recently; I think about how to think about math and CS, that is why I am excellent. Others could be too, but I haven't seen anyone get nearly as good as I have gotten at math yet.

-Philip White

> > -Philip White a 0--
> Jeff Barnett

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_
Richard
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 13:59 UTC

On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>
> > There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> > accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
> > drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> > laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
> your choice.
> > sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
> > he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
> His brain sounds fine to me.
>
I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
trollish psychology.

Also, he accepts that P(P) halts and that H(P,P) returns "non-halting". As Ben
says, that's a tough hill to fight on, and the most straightforwards explanation
is that he is telling the truth.

I think he believes he has seen something that no-one else has, and that he
can't communicate that to other people here. And I think I know what it is -
essentially his "simulating halt decider" can't get the right answer, for a
reason that isn't directly related to the so-called "Linz proof". The "infinite
nesting detector" must always detect infinite nesting one step before the
simulator it is simulating does the same. He reasons that therefore the
"simulating halt decider" is making the right call instead of the wrong call,
by a step I can't quite follow.

However to explain this to him i too difficult. Some other posters get it.

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 14:36 UTC

On 4/16/22 9:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>
>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
>> your choice.
>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>
> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
> trollish psychology.
>
> Also, he accepts that P(P) halts and that H(P,P) returns "non-halting". As Ben
> says, that's a tough hill to fight on, and the most straightforwards explanation
> is that he is telling the truth.
>
> I think he believes he has seen something that no-one else has, and that he
> can't communicate that to other people here. And I think I know what it is -
> essentially his "simulating halt decider" can't get the right answer, for a
> reason that isn't directly related to the so-called "Linz proof". The "infinite
> nesting detector" must always detect infinite nesting one step before the
> simulator it is simulating does the same. He reasons that therefore the
> "simulating halt decider" is making the right call instead of the wrong call,
> by a step I can't quite follow.
>
> However to explain this to him i too difficult. Some other posters get it.

Yes, I do think the PO honest thinks he has something 'new', but if you
look at history, much of the idea was thought about in the past, by very
smart men. To be honest, probably smarter than most of us, but when they
discussed the idea with other smart men, like Turing, they came
(largely) to the realization of the flaws in the ideas.

Since PO refuses to study the field, being 'afraid' of being
'brainwashed' by 'rote learning', he has just doomed himself to repeat
those mistakes, but doesn't have the intelligence to understand the
arguments that they listened to that changed their minds.

I think that fundamentally, PO doesn't really understand how
computations in all the various forms actually work, but seems to have
the idea that somehow they can actually 'reason' and 'change' based on
observations.

His H is LITERALLY just a 'pure simulator' and nothing more until it
proves that the input is non-halting, and then it 'reprograms' itself to
something else that aborts the simulation. And somehow this 'spark' of
reasoning isn't inate in the machine, so a 'correct simulation' of that
input doesn't need to take it into account.

Ultimately, this just 'proves' that what he is calling the decider isn't
the full decider, but there is something extra that makes it work that
doesn't get into the copy that is in the input.

This also shows up in his paper about the 'self-modifying' Turing
Machine that somehow is able to decide to change itself, without having
any code that is actually part of the Turing Machine to do this.

He needs to 'hide' this logic like this because if he admits that the
condition is part of the code that is in the machine, then it is clear
that the decision process must take it into account, but by 'hiding' it
just as 'intelligence' then he can sweep the logic under the carpet and
just assume that 'it works' when it is actually just defined to do
'magic' that is impossible.

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 14:42 UTC

On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>
>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
>> your choice.
>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>
> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
> trollish psychology.
>

My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.

> Also, he accepts that P(P) halts and that H(P,P) returns "non-halting". As Ben
> says, that's a tough hill to fight on, and the most straightforwards explanation
> is that he is telling the truth.
>

THE STUPID AND OR DISHONEST MISTAKE OF MY REVIEWERS
All of my reviewers take the position that the fact that the input to
H(P,P) is non-halting is not an entirely sufficient reason for H to
report that its input is non-halting.

(1) It is a fact that the input to H(P,P) is non-halting on the basis
that its correct simulation never reaches its own final state, whether
or not this simulation if ever aborted.

The simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its own final state
it keeps repeating [00000956] to [00000961] until aborted.

_P()
[00000956](01) 55 push ebp
[00000957](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000959](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[0000095c](01) 50 push eax // push P
[0000095d](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000960](01) 51 push ecx // push P
[00000961](05) e8c0feffff call 00000826 // call H(P,P)
The above keeps repeating until aborted

[00000966](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00000969](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[0000096b](02) 7402 jz 0000096f
[0000096d](02) ebfe jmp 0000096d
[0000096f](01) 5d pop ebp
[00000970](01) c3 ret // final state.
Size in bytes:(0027) [00000970]

(2) It is a fact that P(P) halts.

(3) It is a fact that P(P) and the simulated input to H(P,P) are
computationally distinct thus can have different halting behavior.

P(P,P) is the first invocation of otherwise infinite recursion that is
terminated on its second invocation. It is always the case that whenever
infinite recursion is terminated on its second invocation that the first
invocation will halt.

> I think he believes he has seen something that no-one else has, and that he
> can't communicate that to other people here. And I think I know what it is -
> essentially his "simulating halt decider" can't get the right answer, for a
> reason that isn't directly related to the so-called "Linz proof". The "infinite
> nesting detector" must always detect infinite nesting one step before the
> simulator it is simulating does the same.

The outermost SHD sees the infinite behavior first and must abort its
simulation when it sees it or no SHD will ever abort their simulation,
because each one will wait for the next one to do it.

> He reasons that therefore the
> "simulating halt decider" is making the right call instead of the wrong call,
> by a step I can't quite follow.
>
> However to explain this to him i too difficult. Some other posters get it.

THIS IS THE KEY STUPID AND OR DISHONEST MISTAKE OF MY REVIEWERS
All of my reviewers take the position that the fact that the input to
H(P,P) is non-halting is not an entirely sufficient reason for H to
report that its input is non-halting.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_
Richard
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 15:35 UTC

On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
> >> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> >>
> >>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> >>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
> >> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
> >>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> >>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
> >> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
> >> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
> >> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
> >> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
> >> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
> >> your choice.
> >>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
> >>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
> >> His brain sounds fine to me.
> >>
> > I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
> > makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
> > machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
> > trollish psychology.
> >
> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>
You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd" decider
shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an expert on
Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
Even a UTM, though not a trivial machine, isn't all that complicated. Penrose
writes one out in his book "The Emperor's New Mind". I think it occupies
about half a page, though expressed very compactly in a binary notation.

But you should write a few simpler machines before considering UTMs, much
less a modified UTM.

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 15:48 UTC

On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
>>>> your choice.
>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>
>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
>>> trollish psychology.
>>>
>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>
> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd" decider
> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an expert on
> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.

People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
dishonesty on their part.

The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt

Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.

> Even a UTM, though not a trivial machine, isn't all that complicated. Penrose
> writes one out in his book "The Emperor's New Mind". I think it occupies
> about half a page, though expressed very compactly in a binary notation.
>
> But you should write a few simpler machines before considering UTMs, much
> less a modified UTM.

THIS IS THE KEY POINT WHERE ALL OF MY REVIEWERS (besides you) LIE

The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_
Richard
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:07 UTC

On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 16:48:51 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> >>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
> >>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
> >>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> >>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
> >>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
> >>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
> >>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
> >>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
> >>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
> >>>> your choice.
> >>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
> >>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
> >>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
> >>>>
> >>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
> >>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
> >>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
> >>> trollish psychology.
> >>>
> >> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
> >> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
> >> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
> >>
> > You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd" decider
> > shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an expert on
> > Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
> dishonesty on their part.
>
> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>
I suggest you try this site.

https://turingmachinesimulator.com/

If you've problems with the syntax, I'm sure that there will be plenty of people
here happy to help. It doesn't require reading a lot of instructions.

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

<bRB6K.241919$41E7.205936@fx37.iad>

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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:07 UTC

On 4/16/22 10:42 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule,
>>> why is
>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
>>> threads
>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would
>>> prefer
>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>> regardless
>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
>>> me, it is
>>> your choice.
>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>
>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>> sometimes he
>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
>> Turing
>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
>> trollish psychology.
>>
>
> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.

IF you

>
>> Also, he accepts that P(P) halts and that H(P,P) returns
>> "non-halting". As Ben
>> says,  that's a tough hill to fight on, and the most straightforwards
>> explanation
>> is that he is telling the truth.
>>
>
> THE STUPID AND OR DISHONEST MISTAKE OF MY REVIEWERS
> All of my reviewers take the position that the fact that the input to
> H(P,P) is non-halting is not an entirely sufficient reason for H to
> report that its input is non-halting.

No, we take the fact that it can actually be shown to halt when H(P,P)
returns false, is proof that it is actually Haling.

YOU are making the stupid mistake by using the WRONG simulation to
define the behavior of the input, and unsound logic to process it.

>
> (1) It is a fact that the input to H(P,P) is non-halting on the basis
> that its correct simulation never reaches its own final state, whether
> or not this simulation if ever aborted.

WRONG. See you simulation below:

>
> The simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its own final state
> it keeps repeating [00000956] to [00000961] until aborted.

WRONG. since H is DEFINED to abort its simulation in certain conditions,
that ARE apparently met (since you claim it aborts it here) then the
aborting is PROVED to not be needed (in part because it IS defined to do
the abort).

>
> _P()
> [00000956](01)  55              push ebp
> [00000957](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00000959](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [0000095c](01)  50              push eax       // push P
> [0000095d](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000960](01)  51              push ecx       // push P
> [00000961](05)  e8c0feffff      call 00000826  // call H(P,P)
> The above keeps repeating until aborted
>
> [00000966](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00000969](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [0000096b](02)  7402            jz 0000096f
> [0000096d](02)  ebfe            jmp 0000096d
> [0000096f](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00000970](01)  c3              ret            // final state.
> Size in bytes:(0027) [00000970]
>
> (2) It is a fact that P(P) halts.

Yes, and thus the CORRECT simulation of the input to H(P,P) will halt.

That is DEFINITION if doing the halting problem.

>
> (3) It is a fact that P(P) and the simulated input to H(P,P) are
> computationally distinct thus can have different halting behavior.

?? From where? Do you have ANY credible source for this LIE.

Definition of A Halt Decider (as a Turing Machine):

H applied to <M> w -> Qy iff M applied to w Halts, and
H applied to <M> w -> Qn iff M applied to w Never Halts.

The 'behavior of the input' is DEFINED to be the behavior of the machine
represented.

You seem to be using the WRONG definition, looking at the PARTIAL (and
thus INCORRECT) simulation done by H, that is INCORRECT.

>
> P(P,P) is the first invocation of otherwise infinite recursion that is
> terminated on its second invocation. It is always the case that whenever
> infinite recursion is terminated on its second invocation that the first
> invocation will halt.

GARBAGE. The fact that the first invocation halts proves that the
seconod invocation would also halt if properly simulated/

>
>> I think he believes he has seen something that no-one else has, and
>> that he
>> can't communicate that to other people here. And I think I know what
>> it is -
>> essentially his "simulating halt decider" can't get the right answer,
>> for a
>> reason that isn't directly related to the so-called "Linz proof". The
>> "infinite
>> nesting detector" must always detect infinite nesting one step before the
>> simulator it is simulating does the same.
>
> The outermost SHD sees the infinite behavior first and must abort its
> simulation when it sees it or no SHD will ever abort their simulation,
> because each one will wait for the next one to do it.

Nope, unsound logic.

>
>> He reasons that therefore the
>> "simulating halt decider" is making the right call instead of the
>> wrong call,
>> by a step I can't quite follow.
>>
>> However to explain this to him i too difficult. Some other posters get
>> it.
>
> THIS IS THE KEY STUPID AND OR DISHONEST MISTAKE OF MY REVIEWERS
> All of my reviewers take the position that the fact that the input to
> H(P,P) is non-halting is not an entirely sufficient reason for H to
> report that its input is non-halting.
>

Nope, the fact that correct simulation of the input Halt is proof that
for H to report it as non-halting is an error.

You have NO actual evidence that the input to H(P,P), with P built with
a copy of that H, is non-halting when H give the non-halting answer.

You have only proven that P(P) is non-halting when H fails to answer, so
that H is still wrong.

FAIL.

On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0021166c][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0021166c][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][00211668][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][00211664][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> ...[00000b98][0025c09c][0025c0a0](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][0025c09c][0025c0a0](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][0025c098][0024c06c](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][0025c098][0024c06c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0025c094][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0025c094][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][0025c090][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][0025c08c][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped


Click here to read the complete article
Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:10 UTC

On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
>>>>> threads
>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>> would prefer
>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>> regardless
>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
>>>>> me, it is
>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>
>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>> sometimes he
>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
>>>> Turing
>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>> against
>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>
>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>
>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
>> decider
>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
>> expert on
>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>
> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
> dishonesty on their part.

Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.

>
> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>
> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.

Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
things.

Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.

>
>> Even a UTM, though not a trivial machine, isn't all that complicated.
>> Penrose
>> writes one out in his book "The Emperor's New Mind". I think it occupies
>> about half a page, though expressed very compactly in a binary notation.
>>
>> But you should write a few simpler machines before considering UTMs, much
>> less a modified UTM.
>
> THIS IS THE KEY POINT WHERE ALL OF MY REVIEWERS (besides you) LIE
>
> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
>
>

Except that YOU have proven that it does HALT, so you are incorrect:

On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0021166c][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0021166c][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][00211668][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][00211664][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> ...[00000b98][0025c09c][0025c0a0](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][0025c09c][0025c0a0](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][0025c098][0024c06c](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][0025c098][0024c06c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0025c094][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0025c094][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][0025c090][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][0025c08c][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

Above decision was from the call the Halts inside H_Hat, deciding that
H_Hat(H_Hat) seems to be non-halting, it then returns that answer and is
processed below:

> ...[00000ba9][001015c4][00000000](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> ...[00000bac][001015c4][00000000](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> ...[00000baf][001015c4][00000000](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> ...[00000bb3][001015c4][00000000](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> ...[00000bb7][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> ...[00000bb9][001015cc][00000bd5](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bba][001015d0][00000b98](01) c3 ret
> ...[00000bd5][001015d4][00000000](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> ...[00000bd8][001015d4][00000000](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> ...[00000bda][001015d8][00100000](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bdb][001015dc][00000098](01) c3 ret

SEE IT HALTED!

> Number_of_User_Instructions(39)
> Number of Instructions Executed(26567)


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Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:13 UTC

On 4/16/2022 11:07 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 16:48:51 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a rule, why is
>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more threads
>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you would prefer
>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself, regardless
>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to me, it is
>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't and
>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And sometimes he
>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a Turing
>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes against
>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>
>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>
>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd" decider
>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an expert on
>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
>> dishonesty on their part.
>>
>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>
> I suggest you try this site.
>
> https://turingmachinesimulator.com/
>
> If you've problems with the syntax, I'm sure that there will be plenty of people
> here happy to help. It doesn't require reading a lot of instructions.

That is 100% perfectly moot.
The following conclusively proves that I am correct.
I only need the God damned liars to quit their God damned lying.

The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.

Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Dennis,_
Richard
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:32 UTC

On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
> > On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> >>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
> >>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
> >>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> >>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
> >>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
> >>>>> rule, why is
> >>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
> >>>>> threads
> >>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
> >>>>> would prefer
> >>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
> >>>>> regardless
> >>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
> >>>>> me, it is
> >>>>> your choice.
> >>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
> >>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
> >>>> sometimes he
> >>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
> >>>> Turing
> >>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
> >>>> against
> >>>> trollish psychology.
> >>>>
> >>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
> >>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
> >>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
> >>>
> >> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
> >> decider
> >> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
> >> expert on
> >> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
> >
> > People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
> > I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
> > my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
> > dishonesty on their part.
> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
> >
> > The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
> > of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
> >
> > Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
> > its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
> > space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
> things.
>
> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
>
PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of doing
the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some language,
I've suggested a free online simulator.

Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".

Let's see if he takes it.

Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:33 UTC

On 4/16/22 12:13 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 11:07 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 16:48:51 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and
>>>>>>>> support. It
>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate
>>>>>>> more threads
>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>>>> would prefer
>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up
>>>>>>> to me, it is
>>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably
>>>>>>>> isn't and
>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>>>> sometimes he
>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that
>>>>>> a Turing
>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>>
>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the
>>>>> tape
>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>>
>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An
>>>> "even/odd" decider
>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as
>>>> an expert on
>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
>>> dishonesty on their part.
>>>
>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>>
>> I suggest you try this site.
>>
>> https://turingmachinesimulator.com/
>>
>> If you've problems with the syntax, I'm sure that there will be plenty
>> of people
>> here happy to help. It doesn't require reading a lot of instructions.
>
> That is 100% perfectly moot.
> The following conclusively proves that I am correct.
> I only need the God damned liars to quit their God damned lying.
>
> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
>

Except that it uses an incorrect definition of the behavior of the input.

Even YOU have proven that the correct simulation of the behavior of the
input to H(P,P) halts (See below).

Just shows that a LIE is a LIE.

>
>
> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V5)
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359984584_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V5
>
>

On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0021166c][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0021166c][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][00211668][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][00211664][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> ...[00000b98][0025c09c][0025c0a0](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][0025c09c][0025c0a0](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][0025c098][0024c06c](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][0025c098][0024c06c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0025c094][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0025c094][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][0025c090][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][0025c08c][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

Above decision was from the call the Halts inside H_Hat, deciding that
H_Hat(H_Hat) seems to be non-halting, it then returns that answer and is
processed below:

> ...[00000ba9][001015c4][00000000](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> ...[00000bac][001015c4][00000000](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> ...[00000baf][001015c4][00000000](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> ...[00000bb3][001015c4][00000000](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> ...[00000bb7][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> ...[00000bb9][001015cc][00000bd5](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bba][001015d0][00000b98](01) c3 ret
> ...[00000bd5][001015d4][00000000](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> ...[00000bd8][001015d4][00000000](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> ...[00000bda][001015d8][00100000](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bdb][001015dc][00000098](01) c3 ret


Click here to read the complete article
Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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<cf23f061-0ad6-4fcc-a9e2-144364ef14e8n@googlegroups.com>
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<3UB6K.241920$41E7.89070@fx37.iad>
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:36 UTC

On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
>>>>>>> threads
>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>>>> would prefer
>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
>>>>>>> me, it is
>>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>>>> sometimes he
>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>>
>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>>
>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
>>>> decider
>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
>>>> expert on
>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>>>
>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
>>> dishonesty on their part.
>> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
>>>
>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>>
>>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
>>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
>>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
>> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
>> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
>> things.
>>
>> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
>>
> PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
> built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of doing
> the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some language,
> I've suggested a free online simulator.
>
> Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
> you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
>
> Let's see if he takes it.

That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.

THESE WORDS PROVE THAT I AM CORRECT
YOU ONLY HAVE TO PAY COMPLETE ATTENTION TO VERIFY THAT IT IS TRUE

If {an X is a Y} then anything that disagrees is incorrect.

If {an X is a Y} and Z says that {an X is a Y} then Z is necessarily
correct.

NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE CAN POSSIBLY CORRECTLY CONTRADICT THIS:
The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <B-adnfqxb-gDbcf_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:46 UTC

On 4/16/22 12:36 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is
>>>>>>>>> dying of
>>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and
>>>>>>>>> support. It
>>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
>>>>>>>> threads
>>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>>>>> would prefer
>>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
>>>>>>>> me, it is
>>>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>>>>> sometimes he
>>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
>>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move
>>>>>> the tape
>>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
>>>>> decider
>>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
>>>>> expert on
>>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>>>>
>>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
>>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
>>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this
>>>> too is
>>>> dishonesty on their part.
>>> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
>>>>
>>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
>>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>>>
>>>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
>>>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
>>>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
>>> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
>>> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
>>> things.
>>>
>>> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
>>>
>> PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
>> built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of doing
>> the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some language,
>> I've suggested a free online simulator.
>>
>> Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
>> you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
>>
>> Let's see if he takes it.
>
> That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
> until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.

Except in that case, he actually did it, you haven't.

>
> THESE WORDS PROVE THAT I AM CORRECT
> YOU ONLY HAVE TO PAY COMPLETE ATTENTION TO VERIFY THAT IT IS TRUE
>
> If {an X is a Y} then anything that disagrees is incorrect.
>
> If {an X is a Y} and Z says that {an X is a Y} then Z is necessarily
> correct.
>
> NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE CAN POSSIBLY CORRECTLY CONTRADICT THIS:
> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
>

Except that you have shown that the correct simulation of the input to
H(P,P) does halt, so it is necessarily correct to say that H FAILED at
correctly deciding because it returned NON-HALTING for a Halting input.

On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0021166c][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0021166c][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][00211668][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][00211664][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> ...[00000b98][0025c09c][0025c0a0](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][0025c09c][0025c0a0](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][0025c098][0024c06c](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][0025c098][0024c06c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0025c094][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0025c094][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][0025c090][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][0025c08c][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped


Click here to read the complete article
Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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Subject: Re:_My_Dishonest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,_Denni
s,_Richard
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 16:55 UTC

On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:36:53 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
> >>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> >>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
> >>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
> >>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> >>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
> >>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
> >>>>>>> rule, why is
> >>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
> >>>>>>> threads
> >>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
> >>>>>>> would prefer
> >>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
> >>>>>>> regardless
> >>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
> >>>>>>> me, it is
> >>>>>>> your choice.
> >>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
> >>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
> >>>>>> sometimes he
> >>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
> >>>>>> Turing
> >>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
> >>>>>> against
> >>>>>> trollish psychology.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
> >>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
> >>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
> >>>>>
> >>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
> >>>> decider
> >>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
> >>>> expert on
> >>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
> >>>
> >>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
> >>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
> >>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
> >>> dishonesty on their part.
> >> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
> >>>
> >>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
> >>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
> >>>
> >>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
> >>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
> >>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
> >> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
> >> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
> >> things.
> >>
> >> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
> >>
> > PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
> > built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of doing
> > the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some language,
> > I've suggested a free online simulator.
> >
> > Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
> > you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
> >
> > Let's see if he takes it.
> That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
> until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.
>
I think you are capable of writing an even/odd decider. But others
maybe don't.
I do think you would struggle to extend to more complicated machines,
but writing the even/odd decider would be a start. Then you could try
something a bit more difficult. It's always the way. No one is let loose
as a brain surgeon on his first day at medical school, or even on his first
day after medical school, though he might have a good idea of the principles
on which brain surgery operates. You start with simple tasks, and, after
achieving them successfully, that gives you the basis on which to advance
a step.

Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:04 UTC

On 4/16/2022 11:55 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:36:53 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>>>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>>>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
>>>>>>>>> threads
>>>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>>>>>> would prefer
>>>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
>>>>>>>>> me, it is
>>>>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>>>>>> sometimes he
>>>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
>>>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
>>>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
>>>>>> decider
>>>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
>>>>>> expert on
>>>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>>>>>
>>>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
>>>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
>>>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
>>>>> dishonesty on their part.
>>>> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
>>>>>
>>>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
>>>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
>>>>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
>>>>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
>>>> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
>>>> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
>>>> things.
>>>>
>>>> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
>>>>
>>> PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
>>> built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of doing
>>> the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some language,
>>> I've suggested a free online simulator.
>>>
>>> Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
>>> you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
>>>
>>> Let's see if he takes it.
>> That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
>> until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.
>>
> I think you are capable of writing an even/odd decider. But others
> maybe don't.
> I do think you would struggle to extend to more complicated machines,
> but writing the even/odd decider would be a start. Then you could try
> something a bit more difficult. It's always the way. No one is let loose
> as a brain surgeon on his first day at medical school, or even on his first
> day after medical school, though he might have a good idea of the principles
> on which brain surgery operates. You start with simple tasks, and, after
> achieving them successfully, that gives you the basis on which to advance
> a step.

THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I AM WILLING TO DISCUSS:
The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.

EVERY OTHER POINT IS A DISHONEST DODGE.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My honest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

<t3et56$1hq$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Subject: Re:_My_honest_reviewers:_André,_Ben,_Mike,
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Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:07:50 +0100
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 by: Andy Walker - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:07 UTC

On 16/04/2022 15:42, olcott wrote:
> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the
> tape head more than one position at a time. This makes them
> intolerably tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.

For many years, computer user software consisted largely of a
program whose only contact with the world outside was some combination
of punched tape or card input [one character or line at a time] or the
same for output [ditto] or lineprinter output [one line at a time].
This did not seem to worry us in the 1960s, and we certainly wrote
"significant algorithms" [such as OSes, compilers, payroll programs,
nuclear reactor simulations, ...] without finding it "intolerably
tedious". You have a misguided view of what a Turing machine is.
The tedium is entirely in your imagination.

Note also that there is nothing to say that a tape "position"
is one bit or one character or even one page. It could, for example,
today very reasonably be a USB stick of, say, 128 gigabytes. That
would give you a TM very comparable with any modern PC in terms of
what programs you could write and how "tedious" they would be,

OTOH, we tend to use TMs for didactic purposes as very simple
models of computation, and for /that/ purpose, simple tasks [such as
the odd/even program that you have been invited to write] requiring
only a binary tape and up to half-a-dozen states are more suitable
than tasks that would take hundreds or thousands of lines of code
even in a high-level language. You are fond of quoting snippets of
X86 machine code occupying over a dozen lines and over a score of
bytes; surely, a 4-state TM cannot be beyond you, given a couple of
hours study and writing?

--
Andy Walker, Nottingham.
Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Valentine

Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:16 UTC

On 4/16/2022 12:07 PM, Andy Walker wrote:
> On 16/04/2022 15:42, olcott wrote:
>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the
>> tape head more than one position at a time. This makes them
>> intolerably tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>
>     For many years, computer user software consisted largely of a
> program whose only contact with the world outside was some combination
> of punched tape or card input [one character or line at a time] or the
> same for output [ditto] or lineprinter output [one line at a time].
> This did not seem to worry us in the 1960s, and we certainly wrote
> "significant algorithms" [such as OSes, compilers, payroll programs,
> nuclear reactor simulations, ...] without finding it "intolerably
> tedious".  You have a misguided view of what a Turing machine is.
> The tedium is entirely in your imagination.
>
>     Note also that there is nothing to say that a tape "position"
> is one bit or one character or even one page.  It could, for example,
> today very reasonably be a USB stick of, say, 128 gigabytes.  That
> would give you a TM very comparable with any modern PC in terms of
> what programs you could write and how "tedious" they would be,
>
>     OTOH, we tend to use TMs for didactic purposes as very simple
> models of computation, and for /that/ purpose, simple tasks [such as
> the odd/even program that you have been invited to write] requiring
> only a binary tape and up to half-a-dozen states are more suitable
> than tasks that would take hundreds or thousands of lines of code
> even in a high-level language.  You are fond of quoting snippets of
> X86 machine code occupying over a dozen lines and over a score of
> bytes;  surely, a 4-state TM cannot be beyond you, given a couple of
> hours study and writing?
>

THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I AM WILLING TO DISCUSS:
The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.

EVERY OTHER POINT IS A DISHONEST DODGE.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:39 UTC

On 4/16/22 1:04 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 11:55 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:36:53 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying
>>>>>>>>>>> at an
>>>>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if
>>>>>>>>>>> it will
>>>>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is
>>>>>>>>>>> dying of
>>>>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and
>>>>>>>>>>> support. It
>>>>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>>>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> threads
>>>>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>>>>>>> would prefer
>>>>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't
>>>>>>>>>> up to
>>>>>>>>>> me, it is
>>>>>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably
>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>>>>>>> sometimes he
>>>>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying
>>>>>>>>> that a
>>>>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move
>>>>>>>> the tape
>>>>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An
>>>>>>> "even/odd"
>>>>>>> decider
>>>>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself
>>>>>>> as an
>>>>>>> expert on
>>>>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the
>>>>>> meaning of
>>>>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this
>>>>>> too is
>>>>>> dishonesty on their part.
>>>>> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15
>>>>>> pages
>>>>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
>>>>>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
>>>>>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
>>>>> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
>>>>> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
>>>>> things.
>>>>>
>>>>> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
>>>>>
>>>> PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
>>>> built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of
>>>> doing
>>>> the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some
>>>> language,
>>>> I've suggested a free online simulator.
>>>>
>>>> Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
>>>> you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
>>>>
>>>> Let's see if he takes it.
>>> That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
>>> until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.
>>>
>> I think you are capable of writing an even/odd decider.  But others
>> maybe don't.
>> I do think you would struggle to extend to more complicated machines,
>> but writing the even/odd decider would be a start. Then you could try
>> something a bit more difficult. It's always the way. No one is let loose
>> as a brain surgeon on his first day at medical school, or even on his
>> first
>> day after medical school, though he might have a good idea of the
>> principles
>> on which brain surgery operates. You start with simple tasks, and, after
>> achieving them successfully, that gives you the basis on which to advance
>> a step.
>
> THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I AM WILLING TO DISCUSS:
> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
>
> EVERY OTHER POINT IS A DISHONEST DODGE.
>

Only if you think it is easy to verify a fact that is false.

Remember this trace that shows the correct simulation of the input that
is given to H(P,P) halting?

On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0021166c][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0021166c][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][00211668][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][00211664][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> ...[00000b98][0025c09c][0025c0a0](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][0025c09c][0025c0a0](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][0025c098][0024c06c](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][0025c098][0024c06c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0025c094][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0025c094][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][0025c090][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][0025c08c][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped


Click here to read the complete article
Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:39 UTC

On 4/16/22 1:16 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 12:07 PM, Andy Walker wrote:
>> On 16/04/2022 15:42, olcott wrote:
>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the
>>> tape head more than one position at a time. This makes them
>>> intolerably tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>
>>      For many years, computer user software consisted largely of a
>> program whose only contact with the world outside was some combination
>> of punched tape or card input [one character or line at a time] or the
>> same for output [ditto] or lineprinter output [one line at a time].
>> This did not seem to worry us in the 1960s, and we certainly wrote
>> "significant algorithms" [such as OSes, compilers, payroll programs,
>> nuclear reactor simulations, ...] without finding it "intolerably
>> tedious".  You have a misguided view of what a Turing machine is.
>> The tedium is entirely in your imagination.
>>
>>      Note also that there is nothing to say that a tape "position"
>> is one bit or one character or even one page.  It could, for example,
>> today very reasonably be a USB stick of, say, 128 gigabytes.  That
>> would give you a TM very comparable with any modern PC in terms of
>> what programs you could write and how "tedious" they would be,
>>
>>      OTOH, we tend to use TMs for didactic purposes as very simple
>> models of computation, and for /that/ purpose, simple tasks [such as
>> the odd/even program that you have been invited to write] requiring
>> only a binary tape and up to half-a-dozen states are more suitable
>> than tasks that would take hundreds or thousands of lines of code
>> even in a high-level language.  You are fond of quoting snippets of
>> X86 machine code occupying over a dozen lines and over a score of
>> bytes;  surely, a 4-state TM cannot be beyond you, given a couple of
>> hours study and writing?
>>
>
> THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I AM WILLING TO DISCUSS:
> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
>
> EVERY OTHER POINT IS A DISHONEST DODGE.
>

Only if you think it is easy to prove something that is false.

Remember this trace that show the input to H(P,P) Halts.

On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0021166c][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0021166c][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][00211668][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][00211664][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> ...[00000b98][0025c09c][0025c0a0](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][0025c09c][0025c0a0](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][0025c098][0024c06c](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][0025c098][0024c06c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][0025c094][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][0025c094][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][0025c090][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][0025c08c][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

Above decision was from the call the Halts inside H_Hat, deciding that
H_Hat(H_Hat) seems to be non-halting, it then returns that answer and is
processed below:

> ...[00000ba9][001015c4][00000000](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> ...[00000bac][001015c4][00000000](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> ...[00000baf][001015c4][00000000](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> ...[00000bb3][001015c4][00000000](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> ...[00000bb7][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> ...[00000bb9][001015cc][00000bd5](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bba][001015d0][00000b98](01) c3 ret
> ...[00000bd5][001015d4][00000000](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> ...[00000bd8][001015d4][00000000](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> ...[00000bda][001015d8][00100000](01) 5d pop ebp
> ...[00000bdb][001015dc][00000098](01) c3 ret

SEE IT HALTED!

> Number_of_User_Instructions(39)
> Number of Instructions Executed(26567)

Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:26 UTC

On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 18:04:42 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> On 4/16/2022 11:55 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:36:53 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >> On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
> >>>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
> >>>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
> >>>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
> >>>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
> >>>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
> >>>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
> >>>>>>>>> rule, why is
> >>>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
> >>>>>>>>> threads
> >>>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
> >>>>>>>>> would prefer
> >>>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
> >>>>>>>>> regardless
> >>>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
> >>>>>>>>> me, it is
> >>>>>>>>> your choice.
> >>>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
> >>>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
> >>>>>>>> sometimes he
> >>>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
> >>>>>>>> Turing
> >>>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
> >>>>>>>> against
> >>>>>>>> trollish psychology.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
> >>>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
> >>>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
> >>>>>> decider
> >>>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
> >>>>>> expert on
> >>>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
> >>>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
> >>>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
> >>>>> dishonesty on their part.
> >>>> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
> >>>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
> >>>>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
> >>>>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
> >>>> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
> >>>> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
> >>>> things.
> >>>>
> >>>> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
> >>>>
> >>> PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
> >>> built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of doing
> >>> the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some language,
> >>> I've suggested a free online simulator.
> >>>
> >>> Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
> >>> you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
> >>>
> >>> Let's see if he takes it.
> >> That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
> >> until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.
> >>
> > I think you are capable of writing an even/odd decider. But others
> > maybe don't.
> > I do think you would struggle to extend to more complicated machines,
> > but writing the even/odd decider would be a start. Then you could try
> > something a bit more difficult. It's always the way. No one is let loose
> > as a brain surgeon on his first day at medical school, or even on his first
> > day after medical school, though he might have a good idea of the principles
> > on which brain surgery operates. You start with simple tasks, and, after
> > achieving them successfully, that gives you the basis on which to advance
> > a step.
> THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I AM WILLING TO DISCUSS:
> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
> EVERY OTHER POINT IS A DISHONEST DODGE.
>
Looks like we're not going to get a TM. You must understand that some people
will conclude that the real reason is that you are incapable of writing one.
I don't think this is true. I think you can do it, but not off pat. You'll need to
enter a few machines into the online simulator and run and debug them before
you get a working even/odd decider. That's quite normal for someone writing their
first machine.

Then, for achnage, everyone will be forced to acknowledge that you are right
and Richard (I think said you weee incapable of it) is wrong. Don't you think
that would greatly help you?

Re: My Dishonest reviewers: André, Ben, Mike, Dennis, Richard

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 by: olcott - Sat, 16 Apr 2022 18:34 UTC

On 4/16/2022 1:26 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 18:04:42 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/16/2022 11:55 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:36:53 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/16/2022 11:32 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 17:10:44 UTC+1, richar...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/16/22 11:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 10:35 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 15:42:22 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/16/2022 8:59 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, 16 April 2022 at 14:31:29 UTC+1, B.H. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 11:51:24 PM UTC-4, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no reason to believe that idiot is dying at an
>>>>>>>>>>>> accelerated rate. He is a troll who lies about everything if it will
>>>>>>>>>>> You think there is no such thing as cancer?
>>>>>>>>>>>> drag a dialogue partner along. But I do believe that he is dying of
>>>>>>>>>>>> laughter at all the nonsense threads he can generate and support. It
>>>>>>>>>>> What's wrong with that, why is that a rule, and even if it is a
>>>>>>>>>>> rule, why is
>>>>>>>>>>> it so irritating to you? You would likely be able to generate more
>>>>>>>>>>> threads
>>>>>>>>>>> if you didn't look like a cantakerous jerk, although maybe you
>>>>>>>>>>> would prefer
>>>>>>>>>>> to do it your way. Your way of acting and presenting yourself,
>>>>>>>>>>> regardless
>>>>>>>>>>> of what you think inwardly in your mind and don't say, isn't up to
>>>>>>>>>>> me, it is
>>>>>>>>>>> your choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>> sure doesn't mean his brain is actually working; it probably isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> he is auto deluded or it is and he is an utter fool.
>>>>>>>>>>> His brain sounds fine to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think PO is trolling. He's too persistent for that. And
>>>>>>>>>> sometimes he
>>>>>>>>>> makes errors that that make him look foolish, such as saying that a
>>>>>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>>>>>> machine needs 1000 states to move the head 1000 steps. That goes
>>>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>>>> trollish psychology.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My big issue with Turing machines is that none of them can move the tape
>>>>>>>>> head more than one position at a time. This makes them intolerably
>>>>>>>>> tedious for expressing any significant algorithm.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should try to write a few Turing machines, however. An "even/odd"
>>>>>>>> decider
>>>>>>>> shouldn't be too tedious to write. It's hard to present youself as an
>>>>>>>> expert on
>>>>>>>> Turing machines if you've never constructed one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People that are honest can see that the meaning of my words proves that
>>>>>>> I am correct. If they are not paying enough attention to the meaning of
>>>>>>> my words because they do not believe that I have credibility this too is
>>>>>>> dishonesty on their part.
>>>>>> Nope. You like to use the wrong meaning to words as a way to LIE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The even odd decider would require me to carefully study this 15 pages
>>>>>>> of text: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/doc/tm_manual.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everyone already knows that I can write this because I have specified
>>>>>>> its correct design. Traverse the finite string of binary digits until
>>>>>>> space. Backup one position. If tape location == 0 then even else odd.
>>>>>> Nope, until you actually show it, we assume that you can't because you
>>>>>> have shown yourself to be incapable of understanding even these simple
>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Welcome to be proved wrong by you actually posting an answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>> PO's description of the principle on which an even/odd decider could be
>>>>> built was corrrect. So he's halfway there and should be capable of doing
>>>>> the other half, which is actually specifying a machine in some language,
>>>>> I've suggested a free online simulator.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now is his big opportunity to triumph over his detractors. For once,
>>>>> you will not be able to conclude a post with the word "FAIL".
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's see if he takes it.
>>>> That is like not believing that a brain surgeon can change a bed pan
>>>> until you actually see the brain surgeon change the bed pan.
>>>>
>>> I think you are capable of writing an even/odd decider. But others
>>> maybe don't.
>>> I do think you would struggle to extend to more complicated machines,
>>> but writing the even/odd decider would be a start. Then you could try
>>> something a bit more difficult. It's always the way. No one is let loose
>>> as a brain surgeon on his first day at medical school, or even on his first
>>> day after medical school, though he might have a good idea of the principles
>>> on which brain surgery operates. You start with simple tasks, and, after
>>> achieving them successfully, that gives you the basis on which to advance
>>> a step.
>> THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I AM WILLING TO DISCUSS:
>> The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
>> H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.
>> EVERY OTHER POINT IS A DISHONEST DODGE.
>>
> Looks like we're not going to get a TM. You must understand that some people
> will conclude that the real reason is that you are incapable of writing one.
> I don't think this is true. I think you can do it, but not off pat. You'll need to
> enter a few machines into the online simulator and run and debug them before
> you get a working even/odd decider. That's quite normal for someone writing their
> first machine.
>
> Then, for achnage, everyone will be forced to acknowledge that you are right
> and Richard (I think said you weee incapable of it) is wrong. Don't you think
> that would greatly help you?

I only need the God damned liars to quit their God damned lying, all the
rest is merely one kind of head game or another.

The easily verified fact is that the input to H(P,P) is not halting thus
H(P,P)==false is necessarily correct.

This equally applies to embedded_H applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ rejecting its input.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

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