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devel / comp.theory / Re: What if a cat barks?

SubjectAuthor
* What if a cat barks?olcott
+* What if a cat barks?Chris M. Thomasson
|+* What if a cat barks?Ben Bacarisse
||`* What if a cat barks?Chris M. Thomasson
|| +* What if a cat barks?olcott
|| |`* What if a cat barks?Chris M. Thomasson
|| | `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|| |  `* What if a cat barks?Chris M. Thomasson
|| |   `* What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|| |    `* What if a cat barks?Chris M. Thomasson
|| |     `* What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|| |      +- What if a cat barks?Daniel Pehoushek
|| |      `* What if a cat barks?wij
|| |       `* What if a cat barks?Chris M. Thomasson
|| |        `* What if a cat barks?wij
|| |         `- What if a cat barks?Chris M. Thomasson
|| `* What if a cat barks?Ben Bacarisse
||  `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
||   `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Richard Damon
||    +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
||    |`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Richard Damon
||    | `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Malcolm McLean
||    |  +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
||    |  |`- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Richard Damon
||    |  +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Ben Bacarisse
||    |  |+- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
||    |  |`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Malcolm McLean
||    |  | +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Ben Bacarisse
||    |  | |`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
||    |  | | `- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Richard Damon
||    |  | `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
||    |  |  `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Malcolm McLean
||    |  |   `- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
||    |  `- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Richard Damon
||    `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]Ben Bacarisse
||     `- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction proves that I am correct ]olcott
|`* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
| `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|  +* What if a cat barks?olcott
|  |`- What if a cat barks?Daniel Pehoushek
|  +* What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|  |`* What if a cat barks?olcott
|  | +* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
|  | |`* What if a cat barks?olcott
|  | | `- What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|  | `- What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|  `* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
|   `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|    +* What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|    |`* What if a cat barks?olcott
|    | `* What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|    |  `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|    |   `- What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
|    `* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
|     `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|      `* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
|       `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|        `* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
|         `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|          `* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
|           `* What if a cat barks?olcott
|            +- What if a cat barks?Daniel Pehoushek
|            `* What if a cat barks?André G. Isaak
|             `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ]olcott
|              +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ]André G. Isaak
|              |`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ]olcott
|              | +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ]Richard Damon
|              | |`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)olcott
|              | | `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)Richard Damon
|              | |  `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)olcott
|              | |   `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)Richard Damon
|              | |    `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)olcott
|              | |     `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)Richard Damon
|              | |      `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)olcott
|              | |       `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)Richard Damon
|              | |        `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)olcott
|              | |         `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](axiom)Richard Damon
|              | |          `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteolcott
|              | |           `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |            `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteolcott
|              | |             `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |              `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)olcott
|              | |               +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteChris M. Thomasson
|              | |               |`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteJeff Barnett
|              | |               | `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)Ben Bacarisse
|              | |               |  +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)(Bolcott
|              | |               |  |+* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |               |  ||`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)olcott
|              | |               |  || `- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |               |  |`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)(BBen Bacarisse
|              | |               |  | +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |               |  | |`- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteDaniel Pehoushek
|              | |               |  | `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)(kolcott
|              | |               |  |  +* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |               |  |  |+* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteolcott
|              | |               |  |  ||`* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |               |  |  || `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)olcott
|              | |               |  |  ||  `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |               |  |  ||   `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteolcott
|              | |               |  |  ||    `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | |               |  |  ||     `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)(dolcott
|              | |               |  |  |`- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteDaniel Pehoushek
|              | |               |  |  `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infinite invocation chain)(kBen Bacarisse
|              | |               |  `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteJeff Barnett
|              | |               `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ](infiniteRichard Damon
|              | `* What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ]André G. Isaak
|              `- What if a cat barks? [ sound deduction is a proof ]Richard Damon
+* What if a cat barks?wij
+* What if a cat barks?Malcolm McLean
+- What if a cat barks?Richard Damon
+* What if a cat barks? [ How can a cat bark? ]olcott
`* What if a cat barks?Peter

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What if a cat barks?

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Subject: What if a cat barks?
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 by: olcott - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 04:15 UTC

If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
a cat, what happens when the cat barks?

When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
machine has infinitely nested simulation.

SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
computation that never halts.

SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.

∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.

The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.

Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
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 by: Chris M. Thomasson - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 05:04 UTC

On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
[...]

Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.

Re: What if a cat barks?

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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
From: wyni...@gmail.com (wij)
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 by: wij - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 07:46 UTC

On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 12:15:27 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>
> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
> computation that never halts.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>
> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>
> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
>
>
> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>
>
>
> --
> Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
>
> "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
> minds." Einstein

As I said the question is very simple:
You have to show a correct implement (pseudo-code is OK) of the function
"bool HaltDecider(Func f, Arg a)". This is a MUST.
Other things (paper/talk) are auxiliary.

Evading this 'simple' question is taken as "No, my proof can't stand such a test".
Therefore... everything you have said is.... you imagine it.

Re: What if a cat barks?

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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 09:17 UTC

On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 05:15:27 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>
> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
> computation that never halts.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>
Not at all obvious. A comptuation that would never halt unless its simulation
were aborted may be a non-halting computation. But the simulation itself
is a computation, and it may halt even if it is simulating a non-halting
computation (if it is not a perfect simulator, of course). That's the situation
with your H and H_Hat.
>
> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>
Yes, the conclusion is false. I've explained why. It's now time to wind down
these threads.

Re: What if a cat barks?

<87lf73a2of.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:16 UTC

"Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> writes:

> On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
> [...]
>
> Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.

He's making a bad analogy. The correct analogy is that /assuming/ that
a cat barks leads to a contradiction so we must reject the assumption.

He can see the contradiction that assuming a halt decider leads to (at
least he claimed to be able to see it) so what to do? He has to state
that he has a barking cat -- a halt decider that works at least for the
confounding case. Of course he doesn't, but he has to find some way to
keep the discussion going (he only cares about keeping people talking).

--
Ben.

Re: What if a cat barks?

<5C_zI.748365$2A5.317130@fx45.iad>

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:20 UTC

On 6/21/21 12:15 AM, olcott wrote:
> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?

Wonderful, you have recreated the proof tha Unicorns are magical.

Yes, when you presume the existence of a non-existence entity, you can
do all sorts of magical things.

Thus, by you assumption that an universally accurate halt decider exists
you can show that Halting Behavior is correctly decided as Non-Halting,
or even that 1 == 0. Yes, as in the famous Software Engineering
Principle, GIGO. Since you have put it in, you can get it out.
>
> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
> computation that never halts.

Right, but if the H that is simulating H^ doesn't stop simulating it,
then the H that is part of H^ will stop its simulation and return
non-Halting and H^ will then Halt. Thus the first H that was simulating
H^ doesn't need to stop is simulation (but does so incorrectly anyway)
and thus is wrong in its decison.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.

Right, but if the H that was imbedded in H^ doesn't stop its simulation
of H^ then it won't return its answer to H(H^,H^) and thus doesn't need
to be disproven. Since we only need to consider H that WILL this doesn't
matter.

>
> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.

WRONG. As shown above you are misinterpreting the statements. The REAL
impossible to argue fact is that H^(H^) DOES HALT if H replies
non-Halting, since the ONLY way for H to report non-halting is to go to
Qn, and Qn is a halting state for H^.

>
> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.

Do I presume you are going to provide use the certified reports of the
independent lab that shows your claim? Or is this just a claim wihout
basis, like your claim that cats bark.

>
>
> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>
>
>
>

Re: What if a cat barks? [ no false assumptions please ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:44 UTC

On 6/21/2021 4:17 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 05:15:27 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
>> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>
>> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
>> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
>> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
>> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
>> computation that never halts.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
>> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>
> Not at all obvious. A comptuation that would never halt unless its simulation
> were aborted may be a non-halting computation.

Good.

> But the simulation itself
> is a computation, and it may halt even if it is simulating a non-halting

When the simulator is examining whether or not it must abort its
simulation of its input it must ignore its own behavior and merely act
as a pure simulator for this input until it recognizes a non-halting
behavior pattern by this input.

> computation (if it is not a perfect simulator, of course). That's the situation
> with your H and H_Hat.

>>
>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>>
> Yes, the conclusion is false. I've explained why. It's now time to wind down
> these threads.
>

That you made a freaking false assumption does not actually point out
any error in my work. Please try again, this time without the false
assumption.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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 by: olcott - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:48 UTC

On 6/21/2021 2:46 AM, wij wrote:
> On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 12:15:27 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
>> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>
>> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
>> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
>> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
>> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
>> computation that never halts.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
>> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>
>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>>
>> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
>>
>>
>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
>>
>> "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
>> minds." Einstein
>
> As I said the question is very simple:
> You have to show a correct implement (pseudo-code is OK) of the function
> "bool HaltDecider(Func f, Arg a)". This is a MUST.
> Other things (paper/talk) are auxiliary.

I have done that six months ago using different naming conventions.

Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation

>
> Evading this 'simple' question is taken as "No, my proof can't stand such a test".
> Therefore... everything you have said is.... you imagine it.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks? [ How can a cat bark? ]

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 by: olcott - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:07 UTC

On 6/20/2021 11:15 PM, olcott wrote:
> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>
> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
> computation that never halts.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>
> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>
> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
>
>
> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation

So when we check the DNA of the cat [ review the sound deductive
inference chain of the embedded halt decider's decision to abort the
simulation of Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) ] We find that even when the cat barks [ Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩)
halts ] that this does not contradict that the cat is indeed a cat [
that Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) really does specify a computation that never halts ].

Here is how the cat barks [ non-halting computation Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) halts ]:
Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) specifies an infinite chain of invocation that is terminated
at its third invocation. The first call from Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) to H(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩) is
the first element of the infinite chain of invocations.

Everyone knows that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
terminating computation.

For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
invocations being terminated.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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 by: wij - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:33 UTC

On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 21:47:51 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
> On 6/21/2021 2:46 AM, wij wrote:
> > On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 12:15:27 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
> >> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
> >> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
> >>
> >> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
> >> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
> >> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
> >> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
> >>
> >> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> >> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
> >> computation that never halts.
> >>
> >> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> >> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
> >> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
> >>
> >> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
> >> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
> >> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
> >>
> >> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
> >>
> >>
> >> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
> >>
> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
> >>
> >> "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
> >> minds." Einstein
> >
> > As I said the question is very simple:
> > You have to show a correct implement (pseudo-code is OK) of the function
> > "bool HaltDecider(Func f, Arg a)". This is a MUST.
> > Other things (paper/talk) are auxiliary.
> I have done that six months ago using different naming conventions.

This is a very great achievement, deserves 3 Nobel Prizes.

> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>

Quoting the paper makes me baffled completely. It to me just is like searching for a set of
codes using 'simulator', not a good strategy while static code analyzer is sufficient.

>
>
> >
> > Evading this 'simple' question is taken as "No, my proof can't stand such a test".
> > Therefore... everything you have said is.... you imagine it.
> >
> --
> Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
>
> "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
> minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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 by: olcott - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:38 UTC

On 6/21/2021 10:33 AM, wij wrote:
> On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 21:47:51 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/21/2021 2:46 AM, wij wrote:
>>> On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 12:15:27 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
>>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is definitely
>>>> a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>>>
>>>> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
>>>> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded halt
>>>> decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that this
>>>> machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>>>>
>>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
>>>> computation that never halts.
>>>>
>>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>>> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
>>>> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>>>
>>>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>>>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>>>> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>>>>
>>>> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>>>>
>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
>>>>
>>>> "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
>>>> minds." Einstein
>>>
>>> As I said the question is very simple:
>>> You have to show a correct implement (pseudo-code is OK) of the function
>>> "bool HaltDecider(Func f, Arg a)". This is a MUST.
>>> Other things (paper/talk) are auxiliary.
>> I have done that six months ago using different naming conventions.
>
> This is a very great achievement, deserves 3 Nobel Prizes.
>
>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>>
>
> Quoting the paper makes me baffled completely. It to me just is like searching for a set of
> codes using 'simulator', not a good strategy while static code analyzer is sufficient.

This is my paper that I wrote that has the code that you asked for.

// Simplified Linz Ĥ (Linz:1990:319)
void P(u32 x)
{ u32 Input_Halts = H(x, x);
if (Input_Halts)
HERE: goto HERE;
}

int main()
{ u32 Input_Halts = H((u32)P, (u32)P);
Output("Input_Halts = ", Input_Halts);
}

H is a simulating halt decider based on an x86 emulator. I spent nearly
two years creating the x86utm operating system so that I could implement H.

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Evading this 'simple' question is taken as "No, my proof can't stand such a test".
>>> Therefore... everything you have said is.... you imagine it.
>>>
>> --
>> Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
>>
>> "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
>> minds." Einstein

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
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 by: André G. Isaak - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:24 UTC

On 2021-06-20 23:04, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
> [...]
>
> Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.

As long as he's just hearing them bark, we're probably fine.

It's when the barking cats start telling him to do things (like kill
neighbours, steal catnip, or conquer Liechtenstein) that we really need
to worry.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: What if a cat barks?

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:11:00 -0500
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 by: olcott - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 21:11 UTC

On 6/21/2021 1:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-06-20 23:04, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>> On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>> [...]
>>
>> Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.
>
> As long as he's just hearing them bark, we're probably fine.
>
> It's when the barking cats start telling him to do things (like kill
> neighbours, steal catnip, or conquer Liechtenstein) that we really need
> to worry.
>
> André
>

The point is that the mere intuition about the halting behavior of Ĥ
applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ is superseded by meticulous sound deductive inference.

SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
computation that never halts.

SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
The ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.

∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
input: ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is a computation that never halts.

Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies an infinite chain of invocations that is terminated
at its third invocation. The first invocation of Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the
first element of an infinite chain of invocations.

It is common knowledge that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
terminating computation.

For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
invocations being terminated.

Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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 by: olcott - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 21:26 UTC

On 6/21/2021 4:11 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/21/2021 1:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-06-20 23:04, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>> On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>>>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.
>>
>> As long as he's just hearing them bark, we're probably fine.
>>
>> It's when the barking cats start telling him to do things (like kill
>> neighbours, steal catnip, or conquer Liechtenstein) that we really
>> need to worry.
>>
>> André
>>
>
> The point is that the mere intuition about the halting behavior of Ĥ
> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ is superseded by meticulous sound deductive inference.
>

Self-Evident-Truth (premise[1])
Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
computation that never halts.

Self-Evident-Truth (premise[2])
The ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.

∴ Sound Deductive Conclusion
The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
input: ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is a computation that never halts.

> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies an infinite chain of invocations that is terminated
> at its third invocation. The first invocation of Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the
> first element of an infinite chain of invocations.
>
> It is common knowledge that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
> terminating computation.
>
> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
> invocations being terminated.
>
>
>
>
>
> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>
>
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
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 by: Daniel Pehoushek - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 21:58 UTC

olcott is a god damned spammer. do not help him.

Re: What if a cat barks?

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 by: Richard Damon - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:03 UTC

On 6/21/21 5:11 PM, olcott wrote:

> The point is that the mere intuition about the halting behavior of Ĥ
> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ is superseded by meticulous sound deductive inference.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
> computation that never halts.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> The ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>
> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
> input: ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is a computation that never halts.
>
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies an infinite chain of invocations that is terminated
> at its third invocation. The first invocation of Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the
> first element of an infinite chain of invocations.
>
> It is common knowledge that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
> terminating computation.
>
> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
> invocations being terminated.
>
>
>
>
>
> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>
>
>

Self evident FALSEHOODS as previously shown.

Re: What if a cat barks? [ How can a cat bark? ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:09 UTC

On 6/21/21 11:07 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/20/2021 11:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>
>> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
>> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded
>> halt decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that
>> this machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is
>> a computation that never halts.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a
>> computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>
>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>>
>> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
>>
>>
>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>
>
> So when we check the DNA of the cat [ review the sound deductive
> inference chain of the embedded halt decider's decision to abort the
> simulation of Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) ] We find that even when the cat barks [ Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩)
> halts ] that this does not contradict that the cat is indeed a cat [
> that Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) really does specify a computation that never halts ].
>
>

SHOW ME THE LAB TEST FOR THAT CAT.
IO think you will find Unicorn DNA in it too.

Yez, if cats WERE dogs, they might bark, and maybe we would be riding
unicorns to get to work.

This doesn't do ANYTHING to prove that anything you said has ANY truth toit.

You could possible prove that cats were dogs with a DNA test.

The DNA of H^ shows that it is a Halting Computaition when built on your
Halt Decider. You haven't been able to pull out a DNA test to show
otherwise. Just some badly scrawled paper that claims that it is
non-halting signed by 'Peter's Dad'.

> Here is how the cat barks [ non-halting computation Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) halts ]:
> Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) specifies an infinite chain of invocation that is terminated
> at its third invocation. The first call from Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) to H(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩) is
> the first element of the infinite chain of invocations.
>
> Everyone knows that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
> terminating computation.
>
> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
> invocations being terminated.
>

Right, the Whole SIMULATION change is terminated, so H return to H^ (or
P as you now call it) and it halt, showing that it was wrong.

This is the behavior when we run the machine in question. That first H^
was NOT simulated, but was the actual machine.

H is WRONG because you use unsound logic.

Re: What if a cat barks?

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From: chris.m....@gmail.com (Chris M. Thomasson)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:15:31 -0700
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 by: Chris M. Thomasson - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:15 UTC

On 6/21/2021 4:16 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>> [...]
>>
>> Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.
>
> He's making a bad analogy. The correct analogy is that /assuming/ that
> a cat barks leads to a contradiction so we must reject the assumption.
>
> He can see the contradiction that assuming a halt decider leads to (at
> least he claimed to be able to see it) so what to do? He has to state
> that he has a barking cat -- a halt decider that works at least for the
> confounding case. Of course he doesn't, but he has to find some way to
> keep the discussion going (he only cares about keeping people talking).
>

Ahhh. Good. Okay, well I am still wondering why, when I tell him to run
his "halt decider" against an unknown, black box program created by
somebody else... Well, he seems to get pissed off. Afaict, his decider
only works on programs that he already knows are, decided. Cheating 101?
Or what? ;^o

Re: What if a cat barks? [ How can a cat bark? ]

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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks? [ How can a cat bark? ]
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:36 UTC

On 6/21/2021 7:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/21/21 11:07 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 6/20/2021 11:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>>
>>> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
>>> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded
>>> halt decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that
>>> this machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>>>
>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is
>>> a computation that never halts.
>>>
>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a
>>> computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>>
>>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>>> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>>>
>>> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
>>>
>>>
>>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>>>
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>>
>>
>> So when we check the DNA of the cat [ review the sound deductive
>> inference chain of the embedded halt decider's decision to abort the
>> simulation of Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) ] We find that even when the cat barks [ Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩)
>> halts ] that this does not contradict that the cat is indeed a cat [
>> that Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) really does specify a computation that never halts ].
>>
>>
>
> SHOW ME THE LAB TEST FOR THAT CAT.
> IO think you will find Unicorn DNA in it too.
>
> Yez, if cats WERE dogs, they might bark, and maybe we would be riding
> unicorns to get to work.
>
> This doesn't do ANYTHING to prove that anything you said has ANY truth toit.
>
> You could possible prove that cats were dogs with a DNA test.
>
> The DNA of H^ shows that it is a Halting Computaition when built on your
> Halt Decider. You haven't been able to pull out a DNA test to show
> otherwise. Just some badly scrawled paper that claims that it is
> non-halting signed by 'Peter's Dad'.
>
>
>> Here is how the cat barks [ non-halting computation Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) halts ]:
>> Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) specifies an infinite chain of invocation that is terminated
>> at its third invocation. The first call from Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) to H(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩) is
>> the first element of the infinite chain of invocations.
>>
>> Everyone knows that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
>> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
>> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
>> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
>> terminating computation.
>>
>> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
>> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
>> invocations being terminated.
>>
>
> Right, the Whole SIMULATION change is terminated, so H return to H^ (or
> P as you now call it) and it halt, showing that it was wrong.
>
> This is the behavior when we run the machine in question. That first H^
> was NOT simulated, but was the actual machine.

None-the-less the call from P(P) to H(P,P) is the first invocation of an
infinite chain of invocations Terminating the third invocation of this
infinite chain of invocations does not make the first element a halting
computation.

The simulated versus executed distinction does not make a difference. We
can just as easily say that P(P) is executed and the input to H(P,P) is
also executed in debug step mode. Any execution that would never halt
unless it was aborted is an execution that never halts.

>
> H is WRONG because you use unsound logic.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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 by: olcott - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:37 UTC

On 6/21/2021 7:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 6/21/21 5:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>
>> The point is that the mere intuition about the halting behavior of Ĥ
>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ is superseded by meticulous sound deductive inference.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
>> computation that never halts.
>>
>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>> The ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
>> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>
>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>> input: ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is a computation that never halts.
>>
>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies an infinite chain of invocations that is terminated
>> at its third invocation. The first invocation of Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the
>> first element of an infinite chain of invocations.
>>
>> It is common knowledge that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
>> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
>> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
>> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
>> terminating computation.
>>
>> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
>> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
>> invocations being terminated.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Self evident FALSEHOODS as previously shown.
>

Saying that you think that an assertion is incorrect is not actually any
rebuttal at all.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:57:59 -0600
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 by: André G. Isaak - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:57 UTC

On 2021-06-21 15:11, olcott wrote:
> On 6/21/2021 1:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-06-20 23:04, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>> On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>>>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.
>>
>> As long as he's just hearing them bark, we're probably fine.
>>
>> It's when the barking cats start telling him to do things (like kill
>> neighbours, steal catnip, or conquer Liechtenstein) that we really
>> need to worry.
>>
>> André
>>
>
> The point is that the mere intuition about the halting behavior of Ĥ
> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ is superseded by meticulous sound deductive inference.
>
> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
> computation that never halts.

How can that possibly be "self-evident" when it doesn't even explain
what "its simulation" means. Its simulation of/by what?

> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
> The ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.

If that were self-evident, you wouldn't have so many people pointing out
to you that it is simply wrong. Things can't be both wrong and self-evident.

> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION

"Impossibly false" is a meaningless expression. No journal is going to
take you seriously if this phrase appears anywhere in your work.

> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
> input: ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is a computation that never halts.
>
> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies an infinite chain of invocations that is terminated
> at its third invocation. The first invocation of Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the
> first element of an infinite chain of invocations.
>
> It is common knowledge that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
> terminating computation.

No. It isn't "common knowledge". It is simply false.

And if the simulation is terminated after the third call to Ĥ, the you
don't have an infinite chain of calls. You have a chain of three calls.

> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
> invocations being terminated.

This is just plain silly. If some program H simulates another program Y
along with an input string but has the ability to terminate a
simulation, then there are three possibilities:

A) The simulation is allowed to continue until Y reaches one of its
final states. In such a case we can say that Y halts. Since Y halts, H
can also halt.

B) The simulation is allowed to continue forever, but it never reaches a
final state. The simulation continues forever. In this case, Y doesn't
halt. H therefore also doesn't halt. Of course, this option would be
difficult to empirically verify since we can't actually observe
something running for an infinite amount of time.

C) H decides to discontinue the simulation. In this case the simulation
neither halts nor runs forever. It may be that that Y is non-halting, or
it may be that H simply discontinued the simulation prematurely. But in
either of these two cases, H can halt.

André

--
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Re: What if a cat barks?

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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:05:50 -0600
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 by: André G. Isaak - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 01:05 UTC

On 2021-06-21 18:37, olcott wrote:
> On 6/21/2021 7:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/21/21 5:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>
>>> The point is that the mere intuition about the halting behavior of Ĥ
>>> applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ is superseded by meticulous sound deductive inference.
>>>
>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is a
>>> computation that never halts.
>>>
>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>> The ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a computation
>>> that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>>
>>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>>> input: ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is a computation that never halts.
>>>
>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ specifies an infinite chain of invocations that is terminated
>>> at its third invocation. The first invocation of Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the
>>> first element of an infinite chain of invocations.
>>>
>>> It is common knowledge that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
>>> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
>>> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
>>> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
>>> terminating computation.
>>>
>>> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
>>> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
>>> invocations being terminated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Self evident FALSEHOODS as previously shown.
>>
>
> Saying that you think that an assertion is incorrect is not actually any
> rebuttal at all.

There's nothing to rebut since you've provided no actual argument.
Declaring things to be 'self-evident' doesn't constitute an argument.

André

--
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Re: What if a cat barks?

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 by: olcott - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 01:07 UTC

On 6/21/2021 7:15 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> On 6/21/2021 4:16 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 6/20/2021 9:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>>>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Have you been hearing cats bark lately? Wow.
>>
>> He's making a bad analogy.  The correct analogy is that /assuming/ that
>> a cat barks leads to a contradiction so we must reject the assumption.
>>
>> He can see the contradiction that assuming a halt decider leads to (at
>> least he claimed to be able to see it) so what to do?  He has to state
>> that he has a barking cat -- a halt decider that works at least for the
>> confounding case.  Of course he doesn't, but he has to find some way to
>> keep the discussion going (he only cares about keeping people talking).
>>
>
> Ahhh. Good. Okay, well I am still wondering why, when I tell him to run
> his "halt decider" against an unknown, black box program created by
> somebody else... Well, he seems to get pissed off. Afaict, his decider
> only works on programs that he already knows are, decided. Cheating 101?
> Or what? ;^o

It is not actually a contradiction at all if one is paying very close
attention. Since people want me to be wrong they don't want to pay
enough attention to see that I am right.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: What if a cat barks?

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Subject: Re: What if a cat barks?
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 by: Richard Damon - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 01:17 UTC

On 6/21/21 8:37 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/21/2021 7:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

>>
>> Self evident FALSEHOODS as previously shown.
>>
>
> Saying that you think that an assertion is incorrect is not actually any
> rebuttal at all.
>

Just as you saying they are right doesn't make them right.

The ultimate fact is that The machine when run as a machine does Halt,
as you even showed, so the right answer to the question of the Halting
Problem, namely does P(I) Halt in a finite number of steps or not, is
that it HALTS, so the answer of Non-Halting is wrong.

THAT is DEFINITIONAL. No interpretation needed.

Re: What if a cat barks? [ How can a cat bark? ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 01:23 UTC

On 6/21/21 8:36 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/21/2021 7:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 6/21/21 11:07 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/20/2021 11:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> If you see an animal and test its DNA and confirm that it is
>>>> definitely a cat, what happens when the cat barks?
>>>>
>>>> When we examine the behavior of the Peter Linz Ĥ applied to its own
>>>> Turing machine description: ⟨Ĥ⟩ and simply assume that the embedded
>>>> halt decider at its internal state of Ĥ.qx is a UTM then we find that
>>>> this machine has infinitely nested simulation.
>>>>
>>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>>> Every computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted is
>>>> a computation that never halts.
>>>>
>>>> SELF-EVIDENT-TRUTH
>>>> The <Ĥ> <Ĥ> input to the embedded halt decider at Ĥ.qx is a
>>>> computation that never halts unless its simulation is aborted.
>>>>
>>>> ∴ IMPOSSIBLY FALSE CONCLUSION
>>>> The embedded simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx correctly decides its
>>>> input: <Ĥ> <Ĥ> is a computation that never halts.
>>>>
>>>> The above three elements essentially provide the DNA of the cat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation
>>>>
>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351947980_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So when we check the DNA of the cat [ review the sound deductive
>>> inference chain of the embedded halt decider's decision to abort the
>>> simulation of Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) ] We find that even when the cat barks [ Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩)
>>> halts ] that this does not contradict that the cat is indeed a cat [
>>> that Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) really does specify a computation that never halts ].
>>>
>>>
>>
>> SHOW ME THE LAB TEST FOR THAT CAT.
>> IO think you will find Unicorn DNA in it too.
>>
>> Yez, if cats WERE dogs, they might bark, and maybe we would be riding
>> unicorns to get to work.
>>
>> This doesn't do ANYTHING to prove that anything you said has ANY truth
>> toit.
>>
>> You could possible prove that cats were dogs with a DNA test.
>>
>> The DNA of H^ shows that it is a Halting Computaition when built on your
>> Halt Decider. You haven't been able to pull out a DNA test to show
>> otherwise. Just some badly scrawled paper that claims that it is
>> non-halting signed by 'Peter's Dad'.
>>
>>
>>> Here is how the cat barks [ non-halting computation Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) halts ]:
>>> Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) specifies an infinite chain of invocation that is terminated
>>> at its third invocation. The first call from Ĥ(⟨Ĥ⟩) to H(⟨Ĥ⟩, ⟨Ĥ⟩) is
>>> the first element of the infinite chain of invocations.
>>>
>>> Everyone knows that when any invocation of an infinite chain of
>>> invocations is terminated that the whole chain terminates. That the
>>> first element of this infinite chain terminates after its third element
>>> has been terminated does not entail that this first element is an actual
>>> terminating computation.
>>>
>>> For the first element to be an actual terminating computation it must
>>> terminate without any of the elements of the infinite chain of
>>> invocations being terminated.
>>>
>>
>> Right, the Whole SIMULATION change is terminated, so H return to H^ (or
>> P as you now call it) and it halt, showing that it was wrong.
>>
>> This is the behavior when we run the machine in question. That first H^
>> was NOT simulated, but was the actual machine.
>
> None-the-less the call from P(P) to H(P,P) is the first invocation of an
> infinite chain of invocations Terminating the third invocation of this
> infinite chain of invocations does not make the first element a halting
> computation.
>
> The simulated versus executed distinction does not make a difference. We
> can just as easily say that P(P) is executed and the input to H(P,P) is
> also executed in debug step mode. Any execution that would never halt
> unless it was aborted is an execution that never halts.
>

If it WAS the first invocation of an actual infinite chain then H would
never return and thus fail to be a halting decide.

The fact that H does abort the simulation make the chain NOT an infinite
recursive chain, and thus H is wrong because it doesn't do what H
assumed it would do.

Since H(P,P) has to return its answer to P, or it fails to be a
computation, and thus CAN'T be a Turing Machine Equivalent, and P(P)
then Halts, it shows that P(P) is a Halting Computation, and thus H was
wrong.

Now, if you want to claim that H isn't a Turing Machine, then it isn't
qualified to be a Halting Decider, so still doesn't disprove Linz and
company.

At best H is the Unicorn like your cats which are dogs and yes, Unicorns
can be right and wrong at the same time since they don't really exist.
They also don't disprove theorems.

>
>>
>> H is WRONG because you use unsound logic.
>>
>
>

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