Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

I'm not sure whether that's actually useful... -- Larry Wall in <199710011704.KAA21395@wall.org>


devel / comp.theory / Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

SubjectAuthor
* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input toolcott
+- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
+* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
|`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| +* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| |`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | +* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | | `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |  `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |   `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |    `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |     +- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |     `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |      `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       +* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       | `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |  `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |   `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |    `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |     `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |      `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |       `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |        `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |         `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |          `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |           `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |            `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |             `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |              `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |               `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                 `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                  `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                   `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?Richard Damon
| | |       |                    `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                     `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                      `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                       `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                        `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         +* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                         |+* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         ||`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?Richard Damon
| | |       |                         || `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                         ||  `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                         |`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputMalcolm McLean
| | |       |                         | +- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                         | `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputMalcolm McLean
| | |       |                         |  +* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         |  |`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  | `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         |  |  `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  |   `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                         |  |    `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  |     `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         |  |      `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  |       `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                         |  |        `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  |         `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                         |  |          `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  |           `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                         |  |            `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  |             `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         |  |              `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputAndré G. Isaak
| | |       |                         |  |               `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         |  |                `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                         |  `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputMalcolm McLean
| | |       |                         |   `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |       |                         `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                          +* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       |                          |`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                          | `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ key axolcott
| | |       |                          |  `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |       |                          `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |       |                           `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |       `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |        `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |         `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |          +* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |          |`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputwij
| | |          | +- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |          | `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputdklei...@gmail.com
| | |          |  `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |          |   `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?Richard Damon
| | |          |    `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |          |     `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |          |      `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| | |          |       `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |          `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputChris M. Thomasson
| | |           `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| | |            `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputChris M. Thomasson
| | |             `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |              `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputChris M. Thomasson
| | |               `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |                `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputChris M. Thomasson
| | |                 `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?olcott
| | |                  `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?Ben Bacarisse
| | `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| |  `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputolcott
| |   `- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
| `* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
+- How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the inputRichard Damon
`* How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H?Ben Bacarisse

Pages:12345678910111213141516171819
Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ conversation has ended? ]

<oeCdnQhx9euYkbr8nZ2dnUU7-enNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20256&group=comp.theory#20256

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:35:33 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ conversation has ended? ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<tqadndv0qJ8vOLj8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1LCdnZZtHK3SK7j8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4pa56n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<feudnRmpetF2G7v8nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87czq19wx0.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7adnS3RyacCCbv8nZ2dnUU7-UWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <874kbcaojh.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:35:32 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <874kbcaojh.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <oeCdnQhx9euYkbr8nZ2dnUU7-enNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 72
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-bQUNqTWr/w7cVqSoGbK/RAacWAzvQrtUTXkPHJei07769hfxbGee7Qm1zsXJFXvbzxRUnhwvfMx4Qyj!U+EUhAFE0w4OxShLmvSsziyR/s1hRAiSXx+Fv+jYWPorP1soM75tAgvLgVhbsMDW8qUzTeMOsGd0!PWM=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 5322
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 03:35 UTC

On 8/25/2021 10:10 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 8/25/2021 1:55 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 8/25/2021 10:56 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The halting problem is about the existence of a TM that accept those
>>>>> string pairs (and only those string pairs) that encode halting
>>>>> computations. All other strings are to be rejected. The halting
>>>>> theorem states that no TM is a such a decider -- every TM fails to
>>>>> correctly classify at least one string pair.
>>>>>
>>>>> You claim to have a TM, unfortunately called H, which is a halt decider.
>>>>> (Yes, you sometimes deny it is a general halt decider but you keep
>>>>> quoting me saying your algorithm is one, so I presume you agree that it
>>>>> must be one.)
>>> So you are indeed claiming to have a general halt decider! That's a
>>> grand boast! (You need to say "no" if you don't want this to be taken
>>> as your real position.)
>>>
>>>>> You tell us, again and again, that the computation of Ĥ applied to the
>>>>> encoding of Ĥ (written ⟨Ĥ⟩) is a halting computation. You are quick to
>>>>> jump in and say that it "only halts because... reason", but it's a
>>>>> halting computation whatever the reason.
>>>>> That halting computation is encoded as the string pair ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩. (I
>>>>> prefer a notation that makes the pairing of an encoded TM and some input
>>>>> explicit, but that boat sailed years ago.)
>>>>> You also tell is that H rejects the string pair ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩. I.e. you tell
>>>>> us everything we need to know to be sure that H is wrong about at least
>>>>> this one halting problem instance.
>>>>
>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ1⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ1⟩ ⟨Ĥ2⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>
>>>> Until you understand that the input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ1⟩ ⟨Ĥ2⟩ is not a halting
>>>> computation there is no sense continuing this one way dialogue.
>>> Until you understand that ⟨Ĥ1⟩ ⟨Ĥ2⟩ equals ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ and that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is a
>>> string that should be accepted you are just blowing smoke.
>>
>> (a) While the simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx remains in pure
>> simulation mode its input ⟨Ĥ1⟩ ⟨Ĥ2⟩ never halts.
>
> Yes, though the language is disingenuous.

You are a master of empty assertions entirely bereft of any supporting
reasoning and dishonest dodges away from the key point at hand.

>> (b) Every computation that never halts while its simulating halt
>> decider remains in pure simulation mode is a computation that never
>> halts.
>
> No, only computations that don't halt are halting computations. The
> others, like the one encoded in the string ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩, are halting
> computation and those strings should be accepted by a halt decider.
>

Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ1⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ1⟩ ⟨Ĥ2⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
Which you know is a stupidly wrong answer.

>> Too disingenuous to continue.
>
> Excellent! Mind you, you've said you won't talk go to me many times
> before and I always end up disappointed.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20257&group=comp.theory#20257

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:45:11 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87h7fhgpjm.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:45:10 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 36
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-B70o6G+8yTgb5RF7KCYCaI05cduWSCqRxP2EexF6FMn+QHmq41lRBUKYAswxaWEipD3rAimFOLn0dke!2fkBJoneNT/MFXKYOrMfpo/fpfujKcsyfZirZ7nEt0W49HpFJk10+hnThVYH6vXUrngUBFrW9I5u!CSQ=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3434
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 03:45 UTC

On 8/25/2021 10:26 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at Ĵ.qx
>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ applied to
>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>
>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>
> Again, no. The computation is indeed non halting, but this is not
> literally how it unfolds. This is a metaphorical description of the
> execution, not a literal on. Only the first copy is a literal coping of
> a string on the tape.
>

You can't cite any source that says that when a UTM simulates the TM
description of a TM and this simulated TM writes to its tape that no
writes to any tape ever occur.

>> With the Peter Linz Ĥ we have exactly the same thing while the
>> simulating halt decider at Ĥ.qx remains in simulation mode.
>
> Peter Linz's H does not exist. Yours does (and is wrong) but his does
> not.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<eISdnXFd1-Auk7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20258&group=comp.theory#20258

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed9.news.xs4all.nl!tr2.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr2.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:46:59 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87r1eha6x8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <yK2dnZkA2Nsu5Lv8nZ2dnUU7-THNnZ2d@giganews.com> <_8BVI.106$GD7.95@fx23.iad> <FaydnfJTMNyofrv8nZ2dnUU7-e3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <i7CVI.13$jl2.7@fx34.iad> <5Y6dndhJqqgGcrv8nZ2dnUU7-RWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <ihCVI.186$2B4.3@fx04.iad> <GfGdnRdNdsTdYbv8nZ2dnUU7-KHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <ujDVI.7$YW.3@fx05.iad> <LfednRoEJtA_mbr8nZ2dnUU7-bFQAAAA@giganews.com> <9DDVI.705$rsCb.634@fx01.iad>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:46:59 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9DDVI.705$rsCb.634@fx01.iad>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <eISdnXFd1-Auk7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 42
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-h1TiGh9FfXkUgEIE0TGX2AW+9c10Teoo9JcWNdgsvFCy/A7MMGt49u+h0FpZXoevpW4cjh2f2655R2O!VYqvUYLXiIYNkAIa3HrMq2VBkSkO2wvgqBz0j1Pm+DG1COiPudEgHja6T3fm3QFaj2X62ZN8sN/m!DQ4=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3505
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 03:46 UTC

On 8/25/2021 10:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 8/25/21 11:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/25/2021 9:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 8/25/21 10:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/25/21 9:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, becuase UTM(<H^>, <H^>) Halts, thus showing that since
>>>>>>> H(<H^>,<H^>)
>>>>>>> says non-halting it was wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was your last chance.
>>>>>
>>>>> You admit defeat?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This sort of response provides substantial additional evidence that you
>>>> never had any honest dialogue in mind.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What, that I give an non-answer to your non-answer. That is just a good
>>> way to show that you aren't answering.
>>>
>>> ANYONE looking at the group will see that you basically NEVER come up
>>> with an error in the statement of other correcting you,
>>
>> Because these "corrections" simply change the subject to a different
>> subject.
>>
>
> No, the corrections show that the whole foundation of your argument are
> flawed.

Try and prove this with a coherent argument.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<eISdnXBd1-CTkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20259&group=comp.theory#20259

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:48:30 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87r1eha6x8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <yK2dnZkA2Nsu5Lv8nZ2dnUU7-THNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<_8BVI.106$GD7.95@fx23.iad> <FaydnfJTMNyofrv8nZ2dnUU7-e3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<i7CVI.13$jl2.7@fx34.iad> <5Y6dndhJqqgGcrv8nZ2dnUU7-RWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<ihCVI.186$2B4.3@fx04.iad> <CeidnS_08apsaLv8nZ2dnUU7-RmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<sg6ss9$o8n$1@dont-email.me> <SZ-dncSHQLR3Z7v8nZ2dnUU7-W2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
<VdDVI.486$lC6.43@fx41.iad> <LfednRsEJtD1mbr8nZ2dnUU7-bHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<WIDVI.5960$Kv2.3004@fx47.iad>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:48:30 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <WIDVI.5960$Kv2.3004@fx47.iad>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <eISdnXBd1-CTkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 61
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-onbRBNMzF3u2PHF2v67VCXrCSeO+MCa+uY0AEeOd2Joe96QC2ZMoUYKEFYWDpkkPWG55LWu4yFPhCP/!JgG/LTew17qyrdeKJ2nsFVP/7Sq+dGdNBUxKhIWp5ROqhgoMfw64qn2ZdmiKOJ4L5BKgKwrMMIup!1fs=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4428
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 03:48 UTC

On 8/25/2021 10:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 8/25/21 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/25/2021 9:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 8/25/21 10:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/2021 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/25/21 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/25/21 9:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, becuase UTM(<H^>, <H^>) Halts, thus showing that since
>>>>>>>>> H(<H^>,<H^>)
>>>>>>>>> says non-halting it was wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That was your last chance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You admit defeat?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I acknowledge that you are an incorrigible jackass.
>>>>>> The review process moves to phase two.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What does that mean? You going to write the paper to submit to get your
>>>>> rejection?
>>>>>
>>>>> You have yet to show anywhere whre my basic objections are incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You know full well that your "objections" are pure drivel.
>>>
>>> No, I, and everyone else who is reading this will see that what I say
>>> makes sense.
>>>
>>> YOUR statements are the 'pure drivel'.
>>>
>>> Please note that basically no one belives your statements and everyone
>>> thinks you are wrong. While it is possible that you have discovered some
>>> hidden secret, it is very unlikely. One key thing to ask yourself, what
>>> grounds do I have to actually expect that I could come up with some
>>> insite like that that no one else beleives.
>> Because of this my work is not getting an honest review. It is obvious
>> that my work is not getting an honest review to anyone knowing the
>> material very well that all of the "rebuttals" simply dodge directly
>> assessing my points and change to subject to some other points.
>>
>
> No, it HAS gotten an Honest review, and you just don't want to accept
> it, because it shows how BAD your logic is.
>

You cannot correctly point to any actual mistake in the essence of my
proof. All you can do is talk in circles.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ conversation has ended? ]

<eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20260&group=comp.theory#20260

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:50:29 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ conversation has ended? ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<tqadndv0qJ8vOLj8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1LCdnZZtHK3SK7j8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4pa56n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<feudnRmpetF2G7v8nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87czq19wx0.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7adnS3RyacCCbv8nZ2dnUU7-UWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <874kbcaojh.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<CMDVI.3286$nR3.588@fx38.iad>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:50:29 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CMDVI.3286$nR3.588@fx38.iad>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 36
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-8MWOZNoC+vGSyZ/rS8Na1l740F3s9aGjcfhLa2uMnkivlLJEO3IZ5R/E02rzqZC9J7Ieje0oZmzeOQd!LqFHTLhH/Ib1GxW0QpJjZjWz5AKUj9UrLFcYNPZydVt0eNf+XDgNYAKSssvCUZ0NVXGm3tI2PLwA!Pfs=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3373
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 03:50 UTC

On 8/25/2021 10:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 8/25/21 11:10 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>>> Too disingenuous to continue.
>>
>> Excellent! Mind you, you've said you won't talk go to me many times
>> before and I always end up disappointed.
>>
>
> Yes, me too. It is clear that when people clearly point out his
> mistakes, his brain starts to go crazy and he finds it irresistible to
> lash out and try to muddy the air with some illogic to try and hide the
> clear rebuttal.
>
> I think he hopes that the thread will go off some other direction and
> the clear rebuttal will be forgotten.
>
> THAT is why he calls them 'dishonest dodges', he thinks if he says that
> enough some people might beleive it and not look at them.
>

This is the crux of my whole proof try and refute it without changing
the subject or talking in circles:

Simulating Halt Decider Theorem (Olcott 2020):
A simulating halt decider correctly decides that any input that never
halts unless the simulating halt decider aborts its simulation of this
input is an input that never halts.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20261&group=comp.theory#20261

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 23:06:55 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87h7fhgpjm.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 05:06:57 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f26d32c2309a863d35a5391dd828aac6";
logging-data="21703"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/Qu2RVXTJxFUscwhJiQoNs"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:hRos6weADHdVv1UUs53U5n+hXGQ=
In-Reply-To: <eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 05:06 UTC

On 2021-08-25 21:45, olcott wrote:
> On 8/25/2021 10:26 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at Ĵ.qx
>>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ applied to
>>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>>
>>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with its
>>> input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
>>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
>>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>>
>> Again, no.  The computation is indeed non halting, but this is not
>> literally how it unfolds.  This is a metaphorical description of the
>> execution, not a literal on.  Only the first copy is a literal coping of
>> a string on the tape.
>>
>
> You can't cite any source that says that when a UTM simulates the TM
> description of a TM and this simulated TM writes to its tape that no
> writes to any tape ever occur.

How on earth do you get from "only the first copy is a literal copying
of a string on the tape" to "no writes to any tape ever occur"?

Have you ever actually looked at a UTM? You'll find plenty of examples
on the web. Maybe if you study one you'd realize what Ben is actually
saying. And you might even learn something about Turing Machines in the
process.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ conversation has ended? ]

<fdKVI.12$tG6.10@fx39.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20262&group=comp.theory#20262

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx39.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ conversation has ended? ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<tqadndv0qJ8vOLj8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1LCdnZZtHK3SK7j8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4pa56n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<feudnRmpetF2G7v8nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87czq19wx0.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7adnS3RyacCCbv8nZ2dnUU7-UWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <874kbcaojh.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<CMDVI.3286$nR3.588@fx38.iad> <eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <fdKVI.12$tG6.10@fx39.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 06:41:15 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 5115
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:41 UTC

On 8/25/21 11:50 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/25/2021 10:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 8/25/21 11:10 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>>> Too disingenuous to continue.
>>>
>>> Excellent!  Mind you, you've said you won't talk go to me many times
>>> before and I always end up disappointed.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, me too. It is clear that when people clearly point out his
>> mistakes, his brain starts to go crazy and he finds it irresistible to
>> lash out and try to muddy the air with some illogic to try and hide the
>> clear rebuttal.
>>
>> I think he hopes that the thread will go off some other direction and
>> the clear rebuttal will be forgotten.
>>
>> THAT is why he calls them 'dishonest dodges', he thinks if he says that
>> enough some people might beleive it and not look at them.
>>
>
> This is the crux of my whole proof try and refute it without changing
> the subject or talking in circles:
>
> Simulating Halt Decider Theorem (Olcott 2020):
> A simulating halt decider correctly decides that any input that never
> halts unless the simulating halt decider aborts its simulation of this
> input is an input that never halts.
>

Easy, Fundamental Definitions (do you disagree with any of these):

The Definition of a Computation: The act of performing a Step by Step
Algorithm on an input data to get an answer. The Algorithm needs to
precisely state exactly what operations to perform and the input needs
to specify all the variable data for the caluclation.

Since a Computation fully specifies what is done and what it is done on,
every time you run a given computation on the same data you will get the
same answer.

The Definition of A Halting Computation is CDomputatiion that reaches a
halting state in a finite numb4r of steps. A Non-Halting one is one that
never reaches a Halting state for ANY finite number of Steps.

The Definition of a Halt Decider: A Computation that, when given as an
input the representation of a Computation, is able to correctly indicate
if that Computation is Halting or Non-Halting.

Thus the right answer isn't based on a partial simulation performed by
the decider, but on what the actual machine does.

The simple counter example that shows that your definition is wrong, is
the H decider / H^(H^) Computation that we have been discussing for years.

H will be the machine that YOU claim to be a 'correct halt decider' that
when given this H^ 'correctly' returns a Non-Halting Answer.

Let us preform the actual H^(H^) calculation.

We Start with H^ taking as an input the representation of H^

H^ then performs the H computation on two copies of this representation.

By the stipulation, H will perform its series of operations and return
the Non-Halting answer to the procedure H^
The H^ Procedure will then Halt.

THus H^ is a Halting Computation
Thus H gave the wrong answer about that Computation.

Thus your 'Theorem' has a counter example which shows that it can not be
true.

Remember, YOU DON'T GET TO CHANGE THE BASED DEFINITIONS OF THE FIELD.
PERIOD.

This is ALL on subject, as it directly deals with the problem that your
supposed theorem is dealing with.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<XgKVI.13$tG6.4@fx39.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20263&group=comp.theory#20263

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder5.feed.usenet.farm!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed7.news.xs4all.nl!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer02.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx39.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87r1eha6x8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <yK2dnZkA2Nsu5Lv8nZ2dnUU7-THNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<_8BVI.106$GD7.95@fx23.iad> <FaydnfJTMNyofrv8nZ2dnUU7-e3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<i7CVI.13$jl2.7@fx34.iad> <5Y6dndhJqqgGcrv8nZ2dnUU7-RWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<ihCVI.186$2B4.3@fx04.iad> <CeidnS_08apsaLv8nZ2dnUU7-RmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<sg6ss9$o8n$1@dont-email.me> <SZ-dncSHQLR3Z7v8nZ2dnUU7-W2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
<VdDVI.486$lC6.43@fx41.iad> <LfednRsEJtD1mbr8nZ2dnUU7-bHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<WIDVI.5960$Kv2.3004@fx47.iad>
<eISdnXBd1-CTkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <eISdnXBd1-CTkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <XgKVI.13$tG6.4@fx39.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 06:45:10 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 4491
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:45 UTC

On 8/25/21 11:48 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/25/2021 10:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 8/25/21 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2021 9:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/21 10:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/25/2021 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/25/21 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/25/21 9:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, becuase UTM(<H^>, <H^>) Halts, thus showing that since
>>>>>>>>>> H(<H^>,<H^>)
>>>>>>>>>> says non-halting it was wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was your last chance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You admit defeat?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I acknowledge that you are an incorrigible jackass.
>>>>>>> The review process moves to phase two.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does that mean? You going to write the paper to submit to get
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> rejection?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have yet to show anywhere whre my basic objections are incorrect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You know full well that your "objections" are pure drivel.
>>>>
>>>> No, I, and everyone else who is reading this will see that what I say
>>>> makes sense.
>>>>
>>>> YOUR statements are the 'pure drivel'.
>>>>
>>>> Please note that basically no one belives your statements and everyone
>>>> thinks you are wrong. While it is possible that you have discovered
>>>> some
>>>> hidden secret, it is very unlikely. One key thing to ask yourself, what
>>>> grounds do I have to actually expect that I could come up with some
>>>> insite like that that no one else beleives.
>>> Because of this my work is not getting an honest review. It is obvious
>>> that my work is not getting an honest review to anyone knowing the
>>> material very well that all of the "rebuttals" simply dodge directly
>>> assessing my points and change to subject to some other points.
>>>
>>
>> No, it HAS gotten an Honest review, and you just don't want to accept
>> it, because it shows how BAD your logic is.
>>
>
> You cannot correctly point to any actual mistake in the essence of my
> proof. All you can do is talk in circles.
>
>

You mean like the false assumption that H makes that the copy of H that
it is simulating will NEVER abort its simulation, when it is clear that,
at least if H is a computation, that it will as another identical copy
of the computation does.

The only conclusion here is that either your H is unsound or it isn't a
computation, and thus isn't eligible to even be a halt decider.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<miKVI.14$tG6.7@fx39.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20264&group=comp.theory#20264

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx39.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87r1eha6x8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <yK2dnZkA2Nsu5Lv8nZ2dnUU7-THNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<_8BVI.106$GD7.95@fx23.iad> <FaydnfJTMNyofrv8nZ2dnUU7-e3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<i7CVI.13$jl2.7@fx34.iad> <5Y6dndhJqqgGcrv8nZ2dnUU7-RWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<ihCVI.186$2B4.3@fx04.iad> <GfGdnRdNdsTdYbv8nZ2dnUU7-KHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<ujDVI.7$YW.3@fx05.iad> <LfednRoEJtA_mbr8nZ2dnUU7-bFQAAAA@giganews.com>
<9DDVI.705$rsCb.634@fx01.iad> <eISdnXFd1-Auk7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <eISdnXFd1-Auk7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <miKVI.14$tG6.7@fx39.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 06:46:42 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 3192
 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:46 UTC

On 8/25/21 11:46 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/25/2021 10:10 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 8/25/21 11:04 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2021 9:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/21 10:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/25/21 9:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, becuase UTM(<H^>, <H^>) Halts, thus showing that since
>>>>>>>> H(<H^>,<H^>)
>>>>>>>> says non-halting it was wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was your last chance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You admit defeat?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This sort of response provides substantial additional evidence that
>>>>> you
>>>>> never had any honest dialogue in mind.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What, that I give an non-answer to your non-answer. That is just a good
>>>> way to show that you aren't answering.
>>>>
>>>> ANYONE looking at the group will see that you basically NEVER come up
>>>> with an error in the statement of other correcting you,
>>>
>>> Because these "corrections" simply change the subject to a different
>>> subject.
>>>
>>
>> No, the corrections show that the whole foundation of your argument are
>> flawed.
>
> Try and prove this with a coherent argument.
>

Look at ANY of my rebuttals. The ALL provide such a proof. I just posted
a very clear proof that your 'theorem' is wrong.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20265&group=comp.theory#20265

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr3.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr3.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:46:40 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87h7fhgpjm.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad> <Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad> <Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:46:39 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 50
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-nYkC4nFBq8QxkWbVpI4+yIBd9ItLNtlA/ygmxQGhS68aBIUoYhlptGQBtfR0jeMy9/qy2XwLg/BHHIX!KHlU4eR3HKO9uhII69bBWsDULCHA9FKWg1a1qxsN84evwlV6EHHw5lIRuzHVz9aS9JxuTZXNRs6p!qZk=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4108
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:46 UTC

On 8/26/2021 12:06 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-08-25 21:45, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/25/2021 10:26 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at Ĵ.qx
>>>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ applied to
>>>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>>>
>>>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with
>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>>>
>>> Again, no.  The computation is indeed non halting, but this is not
>>> literally how it unfolds.  This is a metaphorical description of the
>>> execution, not a literal on.  Only the first copy is a literal coping of
>>> a string on the tape.
>>>
>>
>> You can't cite any source that says that when a UTM simulates the TM
>> description of a TM and this simulated TM writes to its tape that no
>> writes to any tape ever occur.
>
> How on earth do you get from "only the first copy is a literal copying
> of a string on the tape" to "no writes to any tape ever occur"?
>

"only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
becomes whenever any copy is instructed to write to its tape it does
write to its tape and this tape that it writes to is an actual write to
a portion of the mater UTM tape.

> Have you ever actually looked at a UTM? You'll find plenty of examples
> on the web. Maybe if you study one you'd realize what Ben is actually
> saying. And you might even learn something about Turing Machines in the
> process.
>
> André
>

Ben is simply wrong.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ conversation has ended? ]

<Oa6dnSl31ap5E7r8nZ2dnUU7-bPNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20266&group=comp.theory#20266

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr3.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:53:56 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ conversation has ended? ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <tqadndv0qJ8vOLj8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <1LCdnZZtHK3SK7j8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4pa56n.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <feudnRmpetF2G7v8nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87czq19wx0.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7adnS3RyacCCbv8nZ2dnUU7-UWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <874kbcaojh.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <CMDVI.3286$nR3.588@fx38.iad> <eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com> <fdKVI.12$tG6.10@fx39.iad>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:53:54 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <fdKVI.12$tG6.10@fx39.iad>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <Oa6dnSl31ap5E7r8nZ2dnUU7-bPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 107
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-7j4R1lryeHBPtw843Wt5KX0kO355tPjupJB5vkJPLwbLZyD14BFVJVcQrn9NIqu+P1hYbCvLx8IFx1p!uTnMa4qJvp5HWjaAMdi7vlABzGZq+R9wnTGNIzs3pjZSEXGq/4IRZChr1NgI+vUwiokF+R30SsLS!N8c=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 6052
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:53 UTC

On 8/26/2021 5:41 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 8/25/21 11:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/25/2021 10:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 8/25/21 11:10 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> Too disingenuous to continue.
>>>>
>>>> Excellent!  Mind you, you've said you won't talk go to me many times
>>>> before and I always end up disappointed.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, me too. It is clear that when people clearly point out his
>>> mistakes, his brain starts to go crazy and he finds it irresistible to
>>> lash out and try to muddy the air with some illogic to try and hide the
>>> clear rebuttal.
>>>
>>> I think he hopes that the thread will go off some other direction and
>>> the clear rebuttal will be forgotten.
>>>
>>> THAT is why he calls them 'dishonest dodges', he thinks if he says that
>>> enough some people might beleive it and not look at them.
>>>
>>
>> This is the crux of my whole proof try and refute it without changing
>> the subject or talking in circles:
>>
>> Simulating Halt Decider Theorem (Olcott 2020):
>> A simulating halt decider correctly decides that any input that never
>> halts unless the simulating halt decider aborts its simulation of this
>> input is an input that never halts.
>>
>
> Easy, Fundamental Definitions (do you disagree with any of these):
>
> The Definition of a Computation: The act of performing a Step by Step
> Algorithm on an input data to get an answer. The Algorithm needs to
> precisely state exactly what operations to perform and the input needs
> to specify all the variable data for the caluclation.
>
> Since a Computation fully specifies what is done and what it is done on,
> every time you run a given computation on the same data you will get the
> same answer.
>
> The Definition of A Halting Computation is CDomputatiion that reaches a
> halting state in a finite numb4r of steps. A Non-Halting one is one that
> never reaches a Halting state for ANY finite number of Steps.
>
> The Definition of a Halt Decider: A Computation that, when given as an
> input the representation of a Computation, is able to correctly indicate
> if that Computation is Halting or Non-Halting.
>
> Thus the right answer isn't based on a partial simulation performed by
> the decider, but on what the actual machine does.
>

// Simplified Linz Ĥ (Linz:1990:319)
// Strachey(1965) CPL translated to C
void P(u32 x)
{ if (H(x, x))
HERE: goto HERE;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H1((u32)P, (u32)P));
}

H1 determines that its input halts on its input on the basis that H
determines that its input never halts.

> The simple counter example that shows that your definition is wrong, is
> the H decider / H^(H^) Computation that we have been discussing for years.
>
> H will be the machine that YOU claim to be a 'correct halt decider' that
> when given this H^ 'correctly' returns a Non-Halting Answer.
>
> Let us preform the actual H^(H^) calculation.
>
> We Start with H^ taking as an input the representation of H^
>
> H^ then performs the H computation on two copies of this representation.
>
> By the stipulation, H will perform its series of operations and return
> the Non-Halting answer to the procedure H^
> The H^ Procedure will then Halt.
>
> THus H^ is a Halting Computation
> Thus H gave the wrong answer about that Computation.
>
> Thus your 'Theorem' has a counter example which shows that it can not be
> true.
>
> Remember, YOU DON'T GET TO CHANGE THE BASED DEFINITIONS OF THE FIELD.
> PERIOD.
>
> This is ALL on subject, as it directly deals with the problem that your
> supposed theorem is dealing with.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<eeydndtCipmXDbr8nZ2dnUU7-YfNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20267&group=comp.theory#20267

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!tr3.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:58:50 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87r1eha6x8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <yK2dnZkA2Nsu5Lv8nZ2dnUU7-THNnZ2d@giganews.com> <_8BVI.106$GD7.95@fx23.iad> <FaydnfJTMNyofrv8nZ2dnUU7-e3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <i7CVI.13$jl2.7@fx34.iad> <5Y6dndhJqqgGcrv8nZ2dnUU7-RWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <ihCVI.186$2B4.3@fx04.iad> <CeidnS_08apsaLv8nZ2dnUU7-RmdnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg6ss9$o8n$1@dont-email.me> <SZ-dncSHQLR3Z7v8nZ2dnUU7-W2dnZ2d@giganews.com> <VdDVI.486$lC6.43@fx41.iad> <LfednRsEJtD1mbr8nZ2dnUU7-bHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <WIDVI.5960$Kv2.3004@fx47.iad> <eISdnXBd1-CTkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com> <XgKVI.13$tG6.4@fx39.iad>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:58:48 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <XgKVI.13$tG6.4@fx39.iad>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <eeydndtCipmXDbr8nZ2dnUU7-YfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 82
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-YfGU7yrgpPuWYXYKsIEhAXIMsZKDsPCjT5xmew4ZydwnYSDPTQ1iCvBy37avpkbt9UluvFe6Q9IWLYt!H9BeDnATiCVb1rxyoYJdTmXj828B9iOANjIQgoMfsji9Lvm/QfugTpbikb/xQ9yL80uj9T3SF+eg!vH4=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 5270
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:58 UTC

On 8/26/2021 5:45 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 8/25/21 11:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/25/2021 10:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 8/25/21 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/2021 9:44 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/25/21 10:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/25/21 10:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:39 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/25/21 9:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 8:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, becuase UTM(<H^>, <H^>) Halts, thus showing that since
>>>>>>>>>>> H(<H^>,<H^>)
>>>>>>>>>>> says non-halting it was wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That was your last chance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You admit defeat?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I acknowledge that you are an incorrigible jackass.
>>>>>>>> The review process moves to phase two.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What does that mean? You going to write the paper to submit to get
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> rejection?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You have yet to show anywhere whre my basic objections are incorrect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know full well that your "objections" are pure drivel.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I, and everyone else who is reading this will see that what I say
>>>>> makes sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> YOUR statements are the 'pure drivel'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please note that basically no one belives your statements and everyone
>>>>> thinks you are wrong. While it is possible that you have discovered
>>>>> some
>>>>> hidden secret, it is very unlikely. One key thing to ask yourself, what
>>>>> grounds do I have to actually expect that I could come up with some
>>>>> insite like that that no one else beleives.
>>>> Because of this my work is not getting an honest review. It is obvious
>>>> that my work is not getting an honest review to anyone knowing the
>>>> material very well that all of the "rebuttals" simply dodge directly
>>>> assessing my points and change to subject to some other points.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, it HAS gotten an Honest review, and you just don't want to accept
>>> it, because it shows how BAD your logic is.
>>>
>>
>> You cannot correctly point to any actual mistake in the essence of my
>> proof. All you can do is talk in circles.
>>
>>
>
> You mean like the false assumption that H makes that the copy of H that
> it is simulating will NEVER abort its simulation, when it is clear that,
> at least if H is a computation, that it will as another identical copy
> of the computation does.
>

It is a verified fact that if H waits for some other H to abort the
simulation that every H waits for some other H to abort the simulation
and the simulation is never aborted because every H has the exact same
code.

> The only conclusion here is that either your H is unsound or it isn't a
> computation, and thus isn't eligible to even be a halt decider.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20268&group=comp.theory#20268

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 07:30:16 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87h7fhgpjm.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:30:18 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f26d32c2309a863d35a5391dd828aac6";
logging-data="16889"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18YIiENdNFia/Rv74D3IUPh"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:BD857B++EIUnxfm31rHE0EMudmc=
In-Reply-To: <IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:30 UTC

On 2021-08-26 06:46, olcott wrote:
> On 8/26/2021 12:06 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-08-25 21:45, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2021 10:26 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at Ĵ.qx
>>>>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ applied to
>>>>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with
>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>>>>
>>>> Again, no.  The computation is indeed non halting, but this is not
>>>> literally how it unfolds.  This is a metaphorical description of the
>>>> execution, not a literal on.  Only the first copy is a literal
>>>> coping of
>>>> a string on the tape.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You can't cite any source that says that when a UTM simulates the TM
>>> description of a TM and this simulated TM writes to its tape that no
>>> writes to any tape ever occur.
>>
>> How on earth do you get from "only the first copy is a literal copying
>> of a string on the tape" to "no writes to any tape ever occur"?
>>
>
> "only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
> becomes whenever any copy is instructed to write to its tape it does
> write to its tape and this tape that it writes to is an actual write to
> a portion of the mater UTM tape.

That's entirely incoherent.

Certainly there will be writing to the tape, but it won't involve
anything nearly as straightforward as simply copying a string from one
location to another.

>> Have you ever actually looked at a UTM? You'll find plenty of examples
>> on the web. Maybe if you study one you'd realize what Ben is actually
>> saying. And you might even learn something about Turing Machines in
>> the process.
>>
>> André
>>
>
> Ben is simply wrong.

I take it that's your way of saying "No, I have no intention of looking
at an actual UTM to see how they actually work".

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20269&group=comp.theory#20269

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:49:53 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:49:50 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 76
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-rScPEFvo9iVExPjVExoGki0zXbXx9PnxYBiNwFqs44baDSn0f0jOMUsxWi1Gck3Jba0KEtB2UQq3d05!oX8SFEpVeOb7kDQPQSsNOHIt83FOOZtFVcajKIRugmKDwkfI1aaWv18wnQZqUJ0AHdbr1vJB0OPX!iU8=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 5017
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:49 UTC

On 8/26/2021 8:30 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-08-26 06:46, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/26/2021 12:06 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-25 21:45, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/25/2021 10:26 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at
>>>>>> Ĵ.qx
>>>>>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ
>>>>>> applied to
>>>>>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with
>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, no.  The computation is indeed non halting, but this is not
>>>>> literally how it unfolds.  This is a metaphorical description of the
>>>>> execution, not a literal on.  Only the first copy is a literal
>>>>> coping of
>>>>> a string on the tape.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can't cite any source that says that when a UTM simulates the TM
>>>> description of a TM and this simulated TM writes to its tape that no
>>>> writes to any tape ever occur.
>>>
>>> How on earth do you get from "only the first copy is a literal
>>> copying of a string on the tape" to "no writes to any tape ever occur"?
>>>
>>
>> "only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
>> becomes whenever any copy is instructed to write to its tape it does
>> write to its tape and this tape that it writes to is an actual write
>> to a portion of the mater UTM tape.
>
> That's entirely incoherent.
>
> Certainly there will be writing to the tape, but it won't involve
> anything nearly as straightforward as simply copying a string from one
> location to another.
>

"only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
Thus Ben is simply wrong.

Subsequent copies also literally copy a string to a tape yet have many
more steps of the UTM simlulating each instruction that is performing
this copying operation. Thus Ben is simply wrong.

>>> Have you ever actually looked at a UTM? You'll find plenty of
>>> examples on the web. Maybe if you study one you'd realize what Ben is
>>> actually saying. And you might even learn something about Turing
>>> Machines in the process.
>>>
>>> André
>>>
>>
>> Ben is simply wrong.
>
> I take it that's your way of saying "No, I have no intention of looking
> at an actual UTM to see how they actually work".
>
> André
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20270&group=comp.theory#20270

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:08:37 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
<lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:08:38 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f26d32c2309a863d35a5391dd828aac6";
logging-data="746"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18OSTImDepfXyx5ysCVATBE"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:/MQNPdpKjZHK6AtfTSeU0+aJ8Zg=
In-Reply-To: <lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:08 UTC

On 2021-08-26 07:49, olcott wrote:
> On 8/26/2021 8:30 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-08-26 06:46, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/26/2021 12:06 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2021-08-25 21:45, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/25/2021 10:26 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at
>>>>>>> Ĵ.qx
>>>>>>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ
>>>>>>> applied to
>>>>>>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with
>>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>>>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>>>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, no.  The computation is indeed non halting, but this is not
>>>>>> literally how it unfolds.  This is a metaphorical description of the
>>>>>> execution, not a literal on.  Only the first copy is a literal
>>>>>> coping of
>>>>>> a string on the tape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't cite any source that says that when a UTM simulates the
>>>>> TM description of a TM and this simulated TM writes to its tape
>>>>> that no writes to any tape ever occur.
>>>>
>>>> How on earth do you get from "only the first copy is a literal
>>>> copying of a string on the tape" to "no writes to any tape ever occur"?
>>>>
>>>
>>> "only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
>>> becomes whenever any copy is instructed to write to its tape it does
>>> write to its tape and this tape that it writes to is an actual write
>>> to a portion of the mater UTM tape.
>>
>> That's entirely incoherent.
>>
>> Certainly there will be writing to the tape, but it won't involve
>> anything nearly as straightforward as simply copying a string from one
>> location to another.
>>
>
> "only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
> Thus Ben is simply wrong.
>
> Subsequent copies also literally copy a string to a tape yet have many
> more steps of the UTM simlulating each instruction that is performing
> this copying operation. Thus Ben is simply wrong.

No, he isn't wrong.

It's not simply a matter of the number of steps involved. It is that
after those steps you will not end up with a literal copy of the string
somewhere else on the tape. Yes, information will be written to the
tape, but it won't simply be a literal copy of the string.

Again, why not actually look at a real UTM?

If you're going to tell people they are wrong about how UTMs work, don't
you think it would be advisable for you to learn how they work?

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20271&group=comp.theory#20271

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:21:50 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad> <Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad> <Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me> <IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me> <lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:21:47 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 97
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-4CvLd6nQPHCsNr6iGCDw/A5+VVaStlPuN6zYN0zgo+QbJILmfVfeiEPVZKERgEGfThYNaPHrXqCajsK!3GlvY8u0VBjcOfLhkaE5HZQJGrz3jLQYV5Fuxf1JgEV4UuP+1IdsOmFcCaJaSwaLt8S2qHtAdrSS!23U=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 6059
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:21 UTC

On 8/26/2021 9:08 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-08-26 07:49, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/26/2021 8:30 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-26 06:46, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/26/2021 12:06 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-08-25 21:45, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/25/2021 10:26 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM
>>>>>>>> at Ĵ.qx
>>>>>>>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ
>>>>>>>> applied to
>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1
>>>>>>>> with its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>>>>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>>>>>>>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, no.  The computation is indeed non halting, but this is not
>>>>>>> literally how it unfolds.  This is a metaphorical description of the
>>>>>>> execution, not a literal on.  Only the first copy is a literal
>>>>>>> coping of
>>>>>>> a string on the tape.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't cite any source that says that when a UTM simulates the
>>>>>> TM description of a TM and this simulated TM writes to its tape
>>>>>> that no writes to any tape ever occur.
>>>>>
>>>>> How on earth do you get from "only the first copy is a literal
>>>>> copying of a string on the tape" to "no writes to any tape ever
>>>>> occur"?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
>>>> becomes whenever any copy is instructed to write to its tape it does
>>>> write to its tape and this tape that it writes to is an actual write
>>>> to a portion of the mater UTM tape.
>>>
>>> That's entirely incoherent.
>>>
>>> Certainly there will be writing to the tape, but it won't involve
>>> anything nearly as straightforward as simply copying a string from
>>> one location to another.
>>>
>>
>> "only the first copy is a literal copying of a string on the tape"
>> Thus Ben is simply wrong.
>>
>> Subsequent copies also literally copy a string to a tape yet have many
>> more steps of the UTM simlulating each instruction that is performing
>> this copying operation. Thus Ben is simply wrong.
>
> No, he isn't wrong.
>
> It's not simply a matter of the number of steps involved. It is that
> after those steps you will not end up with a literal copy of the string
> somewhere else on the tape. Yes, information will be written to the
> tape, but it won't simply be a literal copy of the string.
>

If we interpret Ben's words according to typical software engineering
conventions then he would be meaning that the string copy operation was
actually only a copy of the address of the string and not an actual copy
of the string itself.

If you copy a string and it is not exactly the same as the string that
was copied then you copied the string incorrectly. When a string is
copied this is not a figure-of-speech an actual string is actually
copied. If the data elements are bytes then the copy of the string is
byte-for-byte identical to the original.

> Again, why not actually look at a real UTM?
>

None-of-the conventional textbooks {Sipser, Kozen, Linz and Hopcroft}
say much more than a UTM simulates the TM description of a TM by
whatever means.

> If you're going to tell people they are wrong about how UTMs work, don't
> you think it would be advisable for you to learn how they work?
>
> André
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20272&group=comp.theory#20272

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:44:41 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
<lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
<rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:44:43 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f26d32c2309a863d35a5391dd828aac6";
logging-data="16078"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1988mDSmGe9+2FGgbVnlpx5"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:nhyDiB+k2RUl+JEMOuLPRh+F0UA=
In-Reply-To: <rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:44 UTC

On 2021-08-26 08:21, olcott wrote:
> On 8/26/2021 9:08 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:

>> It's not simply a matter of the number of steps involved. It is that
>> after those steps you will not end up with a literal copy of the
>> string somewhere else on the tape. Yes, information will be written to
>> the tape, but it won't simply be a literal copy of the string.
>>
>
> If we interpret Ben's words according to typical software engineering
> conventions then he would be meaning that the string copy operation was
> actually only a copy of the address of the string and not an actual copy
> of the string itself.

Software engineering conventions apply to software engineering, not to
Turing Machines. There are no 'addresses' in Turing Machines.

> If you copy a string and it is not exactly the same as the string that
> was copied then you copied the string incorrectly. When a string is
> copied this is not a figure-of-speech an actual string is actually
> copied. If the data elements are bytes then the copy of the string is
> byte-for-byte identical to the original.

Which isn't how UTMs work. There will be no 'byte-for-byte' copy.

>> Again, why not actually look at a real UTM?
>>
>
> None-of-the conventional textbooks {Sipser, Kozen, Linz and Hopcroft}
> say much more than a UTM simulates the TM description of a TM by
> whatever means.

Why limit yourself to the conventional textbooks? You can easily find
many implementations of UTMs online (fully specified, nothing 'left to
the imagination' as you so often claim.)

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20273&group=comp.theory#20273

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!tr3.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:50:26 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad> <Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad> <Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me> <IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me> <lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me> <rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:50:25 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 53
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-V6ZBBScbBDCrXEx+EU5kb2AY85zCeCNGTQ32x40A6whj0FNVIyZSmwlpiDojWXLxLb7ariAHtXVuQL1!3KB8h9g+cPQmvNSQFs1ASwqCyeI9j9EMuWVW+rS2Uf9SO7tSbDD20+gJKYfvlDbtjVVYbFUxeTJE!A40=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4230
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:50 UTC

On 8/26/2021 9:44 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-08-26 08:21, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/26/2021 9:08 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>
>>> It's not simply a matter of the number of steps involved. It is that
>>> after those steps you will not end up with a literal copy of the
>>> string somewhere else on the tape. Yes, information will be written
>>> to the tape, but it won't simply be a literal copy of the string.
>>>
>>
>> If we interpret Ben's words according to typical software engineering
>> conventions then he would be meaning that the string copy operation
>> was actually only a copy of the address of the string and not an
>> actual copy of the string itself.
>
> Software engineering conventions apply to software engineering, not to
> Turing Machines. There are no 'addresses' in Turing Machines.
>
>> If you copy a string and it is not exactly the same as the string that
>> was copied then you copied the string incorrectly. When a string is
>> copied this is not a figure-of-speech an actual string is actually
>> copied. If the data elements are bytes then the copy of the string is
>> byte-for-byte identical to the original.
>
> Which isn't how UTMs work. There will be no 'byte-for-byte' copy.

TM's are typically defined to operate on bits so a copy of a string must
be a bit-for-bit copy or it is wrong.

>
>>> Again, why not actually look at a real UTM?
>>>
>>
>> None-of-the conventional textbooks {Sipser, Kozen, Linz and Hopcroft}
>> say much more than a UTM simulates the TM description of a TM by
>> whatever means.
>
> Why limit yourself to the conventional textbooks? You can easily find
> many implementations of UTMs online (fully specified, nothing 'left to
> the imagination' as you so often claim.)
>
> André
>

What I found was not a UTM it was a TM simulator that was limited to 128
total states.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<p8WdnTRK2qBPMbr8nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20274&group=comp.theory#20274

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr2.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr2.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:01:38 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad> <Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad> <Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me> <IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me> <lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me> <rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me> <5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:01:37 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <p8WdnTRK2qBPMbr8nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 61
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-xwDDL7X8YYpZHMKVXH57+gVlVHhZKSmuEbNWLvEcj9t9z3Ffcbdc1dWuOhUsYJwufbySVED4NyHmBdJ!KxByoBmPYubjuihtukT3NLe4DZ7kXlxBf4lWXImBOGMrFFJT7jlL34Bd1cD++3kHyGdKnFQfwuZG!Khc=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4637
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:01 UTC

On 8/26/2021 9:50 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/26/2021 9:44 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-08-26 08:21, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/26/2021 9:08 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>
>>>> It's not simply a matter of the number of steps involved. It is that
>>>> after those steps you will not end up with a literal copy of the
>>>> string somewhere else on the tape. Yes, information will be written
>>>> to the tape, but it won't simply be a literal copy of the string.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If we interpret Ben's words according to typical software engineering
>>> conventions then he would be meaning that the string copy operation
>>> was actually only a copy of the address of the string and not an
>>> actual copy of the string itself.
>>
>> Software engineering conventions apply to software engineering, not to
>> Turing Machines. There are no 'addresses' in Turing Machines.
>>
>>> If you copy a string and it is not exactly the same as the string
>>> that was copied then you copied the string incorrectly. When a string
>>> is copied this is not a figure-of-speech an actual string is actually
>>> copied. If the data elements are bytes then the copy of the string is
>>> byte-for-byte identical to the original.
>>
>> Which isn't how UTMs work. There will be no 'byte-for-byte' copy.
>
> TM's are typically defined to operate on bits so a copy of a string must
> be a bit-for-bit copy or it is wrong.
>
>>
>>>> Again, why not actually look at a real UTM?
>>>>
>>>
>>> None-of-the conventional textbooks {Sipser, Kozen, Linz and Hopcroft}
>>> say much more than a UTM simulates the TM description of a TM by
>>> whatever means.
>>
>> Why limit yourself to the conventional textbooks? You can easily find
>> many implementations of UTMs online (fully specified, nothing 'left to
>> the imagination' as you so often claim.)
>>
>> André
>>
>
> What I found was not a UTM it was a TM simulator that was limited to 128
> total states.

There are many more TM simulators that I thought, the ones that call
themselves UTM simulators are really just TM simulators thus do not show
the internals of a UTM written in the TM description language.

https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1179819/A-Simulator-of-a-Universal-Turing-Machine

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ conversation has ended? ]

<03a1142a-040f-43d6-bb5c-dcc3ba2f5499n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20275&group=comp.theory#20275

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4b14:: with SMTP id r20mr3667156qvw.61.1629991518474;
Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:e6d2:: with SMTP id d201mr5648527ybh.396.1629991516177;
Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.208.130.96; posting-account=7Xc2EwkAAABXMcQfERYamr3b-64IkBws
NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.208.130.96
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<tqadndv0qJ8vOLj8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <1LCdnZZtHK3SK7j8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4pa56n.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <feudnRmpetF2G7v8nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87czq19wx0.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7adnS3RyacCCbv8nZ2dnUU7-UWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874kbcaojh.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <CMDVI.3286$nR3.588@fx38.iad> <eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <03a1142a-040f-43d6-bb5c-dcc3ba2f5499n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ conversation has ended? ]
From: dkleine...@gmail.com (dklei...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:25:18 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 17
 by: dklei...@gmail.com - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:25 UTC

On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 8:50:37 PM UTC-7, olcott wrote:

> Simulating Halt Decider Theorem (Olcott 2020):

> A smulatiing halt decider correctly decides that any input that never
> halts unless the simulating halt decider aborts its simulation of this
> input is an input that never halts.

Now we need definitions of
(1) smulatiing halt decider
(2) input that never halts unless the simulating halt decider aborts
its simulation of this input
(3) input that never halts.
(4) decides

It looks obvious. (2) "X such that .." is an obvious subset of (3) X

Unless that is not what (2) means

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ conversation has ended? ]

<e6ednTD_zcKqKLr8nZ2dnUU7-bPNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20276&group=comp.theory#20276

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:37:27 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ conversation has ended? ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<cradndCzBKW6Ir_8nZ2dnUU7-XWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o89pf5zi.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<R_WdnWjO0dnDlb78nZ2dnUU7-bvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0kce1yk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<edCdnTY_IvB2N778nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl5oc62l.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<tqadndv0qJ8vOLj8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1LCdnZZtHK3SK7j8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4pa56n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<feudnRmpetF2G7v8nZ2dnUU7-VfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87czq19wx0.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7adnS3RyacCCbv8nZ2dnUU7-UWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <874kbcaojh.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<CMDVI.3286$nR3.588@fx38.iad> <eISdnXNd1-AYkrr8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
<03a1142a-040f-43d6-bb5c-dcc3ba2f5499n@googlegroups.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:37:26 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <03a1142a-040f-43d6-bb5c-dcc3ba2f5499n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <e6ednTD_zcKqKLr8nZ2dnUU7-bPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 35
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-76B1n+sHGuQNp9VoiAOXuSjeEQX8as+tor2wS2DQRn9NWc2RmFak0Vp/yjb0L0BtfBZYpXhcXCaHp8y!mTuiQYOZXi69geGcMk/b3FzyDOEwRJj4eCpOiVrAGqJzqJ9O4yeQ0NpCP/XdavvdAuJA+P0TrLUi!8q0=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3468
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:37 UTC

On 8/26/2021 10:25 AM, dklei...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 8:50:37 PM UTC-7, olcott wrote:
>
>> Simulating Halt Decider Theorem (Olcott 2020):
>
>> A simulating halt decider correctly decides that any input that never
>> halts unless the simulating halt decider aborts its simulation of this
>> input is an input that never halts.
>
> Now we need definitions of
> (1) simulating halt decider
> (2) input that never halts unless the simulating halt decider aborts
> its simulation of this input
> (3) input that never halts.
> (4) decides
>
> It looks obvious. (2) "X such that .." is an obvious subset of (3) X
>
> Unless that is not what (2) means
>

This merely relies upon the conventional computational equivalence
between the direct execution of a TM and the simulation of a TM
description by a UTM.

Every TM description that would never halt on its input while a
simulating halt decider is simulating it in pure simulation mode defines
an identical set to the set of computations that never halt.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<sg8fk0$v9f$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20278&group=comp.theory#20278

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 10:30:56 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <sg8fk0$v9f$1@dont-email.me>
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<INadnSiJbfTFYb78nZ2dnUU7-LPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
<lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
<rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>
<5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
<p8WdnTRK2qBPMbr8nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:30:56 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f26d32c2309a863d35a5391dd828aac6";
logging-data="32047"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/J55w8ikoKZDfQW8j2GZ7G"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:1u86spfsYsJlQw1XsAQkbDBLHu8=
In-Reply-To: <p8WdnTRK2qBPMbr8nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:30 UTC

On 2021-08-26 09:01, olcott wrote:
> On 8/26/2021 9:50 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/26/2021 9:44 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:

>>> Why limit yourself to the conventional textbooks? You can easily find
>>> many implementations of UTMs online (fully specified, nothing 'left
>>> to the imagination' as you so often claim.)
>>>
>>
>> What I found was not a UTM it was a TM simulator that was limited to
>> 128 total states.
>
> There are many more TM simulators that I thought, the ones that call
> themselves UTM simulators are really just TM simulators thus do not show
> the internals of a UTM written in the TM description language.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397596000771

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<0vydnSb6TL2ZW7r8nZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20279&group=comp.theory#20279

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.snarked.org!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 11:49:08 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tujfbv4y.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
<lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
<rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>
<5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
<p8WdnTRK2qBPMbr8nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8fk0$v9f$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 11:49:06 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <sg8fk0$v9f$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <0vydnSb6TL2ZW7r8nZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 46
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-H6tmfaiWhNPaJOL535HNfKDgZHxcuHnEzTM+yW20ay91XI3xSbxrQb4t4t9K1P5uZWgCpIL/K/LRlWw!+odxzx+ZURc9zdQyo7tmnEbVfEd0yc6BuUTo7TiUZhPVwTAMFqRokvbrebT95/lJ3ZV72PU6nf8p!juA=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3974
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 16:49 UTC

On 8/26/2021 11:30 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-08-26 09:01, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/26/2021 9:50 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/26/2021 9:44 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>
>>>> Why limit yourself to the conventional textbooks? You can easily
>>>> find many implementations of UTMs online (fully specified, nothing
>>>> 'left to the imagination' as you so often claim.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> What I found was not a UTM it was a TM simulator that was limited to
>>> 128 total states.
>>
>> There are many more TM simulators that I thought, the ones that call
>> themselves UTM simulators are really just TM simulators thus do not
>> show the internals of a UTM written in the TM description language.
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397596000771
>
> André
>

It is helpful but not necessary that I know the internals of a UTM.
All that I really need to know is that the infinite sequence of steps
that are being performed can be recognized as an infinite sequence.

When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at Ĵ.qx
instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ applied to
⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.

Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with its
input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...

The Linz Ĥ template stipulates that a copy must be performed. If a
literal copy is not performed then this diverges from the template.

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<sg8l27$bb1$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20280&group=comp.theory#20280

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:03:50 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <sg8l27$bb1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5bidne_8HrBuqbn8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
<lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
<rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>
<5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
<p8WdnTRK2qBPMbr8nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8fk0$v9f$1@dont-email.me>
<0vydnSb6TL2ZW7r8nZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:03:52 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="f26d32c2309a863d35a5391dd828aac6";
logging-data="11617"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/DkpkK5yk2MDTlQCE8obR+"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:5F0TEc6f6T2MOuZnmJmrmELl/1o=
In-Reply-To: <0vydnSb6TL2ZW7r8nZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:03 UTC

On 2021-08-26 10:49, olcott wrote:
> On 8/26/2021 11:30 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2021-08-26 09:01, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/26/2021 9:50 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/26/2021 9:44 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>
>>>>> Why limit yourself to the conventional textbooks? You can easily
>>>>> find many implementations of UTMs online (fully specified, nothing
>>>>> 'left to the imagination' as you so often claim.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I found was not a UTM it was a TM simulator that was limited to
>>>> 128 total states.
>>>
>>> There are many more TM simulators that I thought, the ones that call
>>> themselves UTM simulators are really just TM simulators thus do not
>>> show the internals of a UTM written in the TM description language.
>>
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397596000771
>>
>> André
>>
>
> It is helpful but not necessary that I know the internals of a UTM.

It *is* necessary if you're going to be making claims about UTMs as you
do below, or if you're going to tell other people that they are wrong
about claims regarding UTMs.

> All that I really need to know is that the infinite sequence of steps
> that are being performed can be recognized as an infinite sequence.

And if you don't know exactly how a UTM works, then how do you plan on
establishing that a 'simulating halt decider' based on a UTM can
recognize a given sequence of steps as being infinite?

André

> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at Ĵ.qx
> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ applied to
> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>
> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with its
> input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>
> The Linz Ĥ template stipulates that a copy must be performed. If a
> literal copy is not performed then this diverges from the template.

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input to H? [ distinct computations ]

<CpudnZ-zNfqdRLr8nZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=20282&group=comp.theory#20282

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed9.news.xs4all.nl!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:10:08 -0500
Subject: Re: How do we know H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status for the input
to H? [ distinct computations ]
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <3YOdnecvDsA5Q4r8nZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87lf4rbksk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Mf2dnamm9d978bn8nZ2dnUU7-cHNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87fsuzaq8t.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <__WdneskYvGLiLj8nZ2dnUU7-U3NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgt69xah.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pc6dnd7lf6NfI7j8nZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<5zqVI.10579$kQ4.10540@fx13.iad>
<Ea2dndkCwo0bzbv8nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <Z2BVI.1293$F26.792@fx44.iad>
<Y7udnRjYJLheQrv8nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87y28o998g.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<eISdnXZd1-Dak7r8nZ2dnUU7-efNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg77hh$l67$1@dont-email.me>
<IrGdnY_9cdGtELr8nZ2dnUU7-WvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg851a$gfp$1@dont-email.me>
<lJGdncI-4tifAbr8nZ2dnUU7-R_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8796$na$1@dont-email.me>
<rsKdnbAXWp7jPrr8nZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg89cq$fme$1@dont-email.me>
<5L-dnYPQCYavN7r8nZ2dnUU7-eednZ2d@giganews.com>
<p8WdnTRK2qBPMbr8nZ2dnUU7-c3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8fk0$v9f$1@dont-email.me>
<0vydnSb6TL2ZW7r8nZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <sg8l27$bb1$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:10:07 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.13.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <sg8l27$bb1$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <CpudnZ-zNfqdRLr8nZ2dnUU7-S2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 64
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-xaerJ2XYOOZBccUs9cotSeGLuX3h6I+NpIwq20FCXMixmHDANzuwHA1eKDX15UBgbwJHzholuRoY2Li!BzG1QOkBA8yXsP1nl/cGSW4ab82EQnIDSJ9hILTiIAjEz8TzaRK+cvYxyeavYAKqrZiIpeyORMzG!lys=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4699
X-Received-Bytes: 4878
 by: olcott - Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:10 UTC

On 8/26/2021 1:03 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2021-08-26 10:49, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/26/2021 11:30 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2021-08-26 09:01, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/26/2021 9:50 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/26/2021 9:44 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Why limit yourself to the conventional textbooks? You can easily
>>>>>> find many implementations of UTMs online (fully specified, nothing
>>>>>> 'left to the imagination' as you so often claim.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What I found was not a UTM it was a TM simulator that was limited
>>>>> to 128 total states.
>>>>
>>>> There are many more TM simulators that I thought, the ones that call
>>>> themselves UTM simulators are really just TM simulators thus do not
>>>> show the internals of a UTM written in the TM description language.
>>>
>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397596000771
>>>
>>> André
>>>
>>
>> It is helpful but not necessary that I know the internals of a UTM.
>
> It *is* necessary if you're going to be making claims about UTMs as you
> do below, or if you're going to tell other people that they are wrong
> about claims regarding UTMs.
>
>> All that I really need to know is that the infinite sequence of steps
>> that are being performed can be recognized as an infinite sequence.
>
> And if you don't know exactly how a UTM works, then how do you plan on
> establishing that a 'simulating halt decider' based on a UTM can
> recognize a given sequence of steps as being infinite?
>
> André
>

A UTM must simulate the code that it is presented with. If this code
writes to its tape the it must literally write to its tape.

>> When we define Ĵ to be exactly like Ĥ except that it has a UTM at Ĵ.qx
>> instead of a simulating halt decider then we can see that Ĵ applied to
>> ⟨Ĵ⟩ never halts.
>>
>> Ĵ copies its input ⟨Ĵ1⟩ to ⟨Ĵ2⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ1 with its
>> input ⟨Ĵ2⟩
>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ2⟩ to ⟨Ĵ3⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ2 with
>> its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩
>> which copies its input ⟨Ĵ3⟩ to ⟨Ĵ4⟩ then simulates this input Ĵ3 with
>> its input ⟨Ĵ4⟩ ...
>>
>> The Linz Ĥ template stipulates that a copy must be performed. If a
>> literal copy is not performed then this diverges from the template.
>

--
Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Einstein

Pages:12345678910111213141516171819
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor