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devel / comp.theory / Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

SubjectAuthor
* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ keyolcott
+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
 `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |+* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    ||`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    || `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    ||  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    ||   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    ||   |  `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | |     `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |     +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      |   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |       `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |   |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Jeff Barnett
    |   |        |    |      |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Jeff Barnett
    |   |        |    |      |   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |       +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |       |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |       `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |      |   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |       `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |        `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |         `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |          +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |          `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |           `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |            |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Dennis Bush
    |   |        |    |            | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |            | | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | | | +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |            | | | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            | | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |            | |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |             +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    |   |        |    |             `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |              `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |               `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |                `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |                 `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Andy Walker
    `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse

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Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<xKydnRnPPPyrCdH_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29422&group=comp.theory#29422

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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<t2i344$q2k$1@dont-email.me>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 19:10 UTC

On 4/5/2022 1:51 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 11:07 AM, olcott wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> I have been doing this professionally for 30 years.
>> I was part of the NPOESS satellite ingest team at our local Air Force
>> base. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOESS
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Sorry to interrupt your tutoring, but the above is no way to impress
> your teacher. Let's look at a few quotes from that article:
>
> 1. "The estimated launch date for the first NPOESS satellite, "C1" or
> "Charlie 1" was around 2013. Issues with sensor developments were the
> primary cited reason for delays and cost-overruns."
>
> That was after you started your internet career. It raises the question
> of correlation. Were you trolling while working or ...?
>
> 2. "The project had to go through three Nunn-McCurdy reviews,
> Congressional hearings that are automatically triggered when a program
> goes over budget by more than 25%.[4] Suomi NPP was launched five years
> behind schedule, on October 28, 2011."
>
> 3. "The White House announced on February 1, 2010, that the NPOESS
> satellite partnership was to be dissolved, and that two separate lines
> of polar-orbiting satellites to serve military and civilian users would
> be pursued instead."
>
> So after this success, did you ever work again?

A senior C++ developer for NPOESS satellite would not be a clueless
wonder that knows hardly anything about software engineering.

After that I was the only developer for a large bank's credit card
dispute management system, for three years until the contract ended.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2iaf0$kjr$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29423&group=comp.theory#29423

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:57:04 -0600
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 by: André G. Isaak - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 20:57 UTC

On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary notation
>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>
>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>
>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>
>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings of the
>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>
>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual decimal
>>    notation.
>>
>
> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.

Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation and one
that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former is much simpler.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<HfydnbDt9LrxM9H_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 21:02 UTC

On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary notation
>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>
>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>
>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>
>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings of the
>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>
>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual
>>> decimal
>>>    notation.
>>>
>>
>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>
> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation and one
> that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former is much simpler.
>
> André
>

Unary freaks me out with its counter-intuitive nature. Ben says that it
proves to be simpler than binary and I accept his word on this.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2ic1u$2g5$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29425&group=comp.theory#29425

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 15:24:12 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
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 by: André G. Isaak - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 21:24 UTC

On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary
>>>>>> notation
>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>
>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>
>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>
>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings of the
>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>
>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual
>>>> decimal
>>>>    notation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>
>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation and
>> one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former is much
>> simpler.
>>
>> André
>>
>
> Unary freaks me out with its counter-intuitive nature. Ben says that it
> proves to be simpler than binary and I accept his word on this.

But don't you think that it would be worth your while to try to
understand *why* this is the case?

One of Ben's goals seems to be to get you to actually construct a Turing
Machine, a task which would almost certainly rid you of many of your
misconceptions about Turing Machines and how they work.

His example of an "Eveness Decider" is trivial to construct regardless
of whether you use unary or binary representation (though it is slightly
easier using the former). This example is "Hello World!" territory, not
some massive undertaking. You'd really benefit from actually attempting
this.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<xdydnchxG7MPKNH_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29426&group=comp.theory#29426

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 by: olcott - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 21:33 UTC

On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary
>>>>>>> notation
>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>
>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>
>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings of the
>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual
>>>>> decimal
>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>
>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation and
>>> one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former is
>>> much simpler.
>>>
>>> André
>>>
>>
>> Unary freaks me out with its counter-intuitive nature. Ben says that
>> it proves to be simpler than binary and I accept his word on this.
>
> But don't you think that it would be worth your while to try to
> understand *why* this is the case?
>
> One of Ben's goals seems to be to get you to actually construct a Turing
> Machine, a task which would almost certainly rid you of many of your
> misconceptions about Turing Machines and how they work.
>
> His example of an "Eveness Decider" is trivial to construct regardless
> of whether you use unary or binary representation (though it is slightly
> easier using the former). This example is "Hello World!" territory, not
> some massive undertaking. You'd really benefit from actually attempting
> this.
>
> André
>

The only thing that is actually needed is to eliminate hidden
assumptions in the meanings that are being expressed so that the last
sentence of the following is understood to prove that I am correct:

I say the issue is exactly the opposite of this, I am the only one with
a correct understanding of what a halt decider must do.

WE ALL AGREE ON THIS:
A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
its own accept or reject state.

HERE IS WHERE WE DIVERGE:
A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
its own accept or reject state:

On the basis of the actual behavior actually specified by its input.

All of my reviewers (and Linz) always measure a different sequence of
configurations than the one the is actually specified by the actual input.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2ig2n$vmq$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29428&group=comp.theory#29428

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: jbb...@notatt.com (Jeff Barnett)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 16:32:52 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Barnett - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 22:32 UTC

On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary
>>>>>>>> notation
>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual
>>>>>> decimal
>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>
>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation and
>>>> one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former is
>>>> much simpler.
And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base greater
than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose your fear of
public failure and dive in somewhere. Of course you could use Google and
pretend what you found was yours but that wouldn't help you with the
next exercise. Actually, what do you have to lose? If you can do this
exercise everyone will raise their PO rating a notch; if you fail,
nobody will think any the worse of you.
>>> Unary freaks me out with its counter-intuitive nature. Ben says that
>>> it proves to be simpler than binary and I accept his word on this.
>>
>> But don't you think that it would be worth your while to try to
>> understand *why* this is the case?
>>
>> One of Ben's goals seems to be to get you to actually construct a
>> Turing Machine, a task which would almost certainly rid you of many of
>> your misconceptions about Turing Machines and how they work.
>>
>> His example of an "Eveness Decider" is trivial to construct regardless
>> of whether you use unary or binary representation (though it is
>> slightly easier using the former). This example is "Hello World!"
>> territory, not some massive undertaking. You'd really benefit from
>> actually attempting this.
>>
>> André
>>
>
> The only thing that is actually needed is to eliminate hidden
> assumptions in the meanings that are being expressed so that the last
> sentence of the following is understood to prove that I am correct:
>
>
> I say the issue is exactly the opposite of this, I am the only one with
> a correct understanding of what a halt decider must do.
>
> WE ALL AGREE ON THIS:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state.
>
> HERE IS WHERE WE DIVERGE:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state:
>
> On the basis of the actual behavior actually specified by its input.
>
> All of my reviewers (and Linz) always measure a different sequence of
> configurations than the one the is actually specified by the actual input.
>
>
>

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<KLGdndZ3tfqnVtH_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:05 UTC

On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary
>>>>>>>>> notation
>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual
>>>>>>> decimal
>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation and
>>>>> one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former is
>>>>> much simpler.
>
> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base greater
> than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose your fear of
> public failure and dive in somewhere.

It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?

The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a base-2
even-number decider in this system:

http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
(a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
(b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
(c) Accept or Reject input.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:23 UTC

On 4/5/22 5:33 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary
>>>>>>>> notation
>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual
>>>>>> decimal
>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>
>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation and
>>>> one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former is
>>>> much simpler.
>>>>
>>>> André
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unary freaks me out with its counter-intuitive nature. Ben says that
>>> it proves to be simpler than binary and I accept his word on this.
>>
>> But don't you think that it would be worth your while to try to
>> understand *why* this is the case?
>>
>> One of Ben's goals seems to be to get you to actually construct a
>> Turing Machine, a task which would almost certainly rid you of many of
>> your misconceptions about Turing Machines and how they work.
>>
>> His example of an "Eveness Decider" is trivial to construct regardless
>> of whether you use unary or binary representation (though it is
>> slightly easier using the former). This example is "Hello World!"
>> territory, not some massive undertaking. You'd really benefit from
>> actually attempting this.
>>
>> André
>>
>
> The only thing that is actually needed is to eliminate hidden
> assumptions in the meanings that are being expressed so that the last
> sentence of the following is understood to prove that I am correct:
>
>
> I say the issue is exactly the opposite of this, I am the only one with
> a correct understanding of what a halt decider must do.
>
> WE ALL AGREE ON THIS:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state.
>
> HERE IS WHERE WE DIVERGE:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state:
>
> On the basis of the actual behavior actually specified by its input.
>
> All of my reviewers (and Linz) always measure a different sequence of
> configurations than the one the is actually specified by the actual input.
>

Except you forget that there is a definition for the actual behavior of
the input SPECIFIED by the problem, one that YOU ignnore, (and even clam
must be wrong, when it is DEFINITIONALLY correct).

The input <H^> <H^> specifies the sequence of configuration specified by
H^ applied to <H^>, and NOTHING else (in particular, not the PARTIAL
simulation by H).

This is from the DEFINITON:

H applied to <M> w goes to Qy if M applied to w Halts.

That DEFINES how to interprete the behavior of the input.

<H^> <H^> refers to H^ applied to <H^>, which even you admit will halt
if H applied to <H^> <H^> goes to Qn.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2ij5a$j30$1@dont-email.me>

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: André G. Isaak - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:25 UTC

On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary
>>>>>>>>>> notation
>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.  The TM
>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the
>>>>>>>> usual decimal
>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation
>>>>>> and one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the former
>>>>>> is much simpler.
>>
>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose your
>> fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>
> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?

Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't* have
even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above analogy is
hardly apropos.

> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a base-2
> even-number decider in this system:
>
> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
> (c) Accept or Reject input.

So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the actual TM?

Then do the same thing using a unary representation so you can
understand why this option is actually simpler.

If you're going to claim to be the only one in the universe who really
understands how a halt decider works, you could at least demonstrate an
understanding of truly trivial deciders.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<Lg43K.26583$Kdf.25762@fx96.iad>

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 by: Richard Damon - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:28 UTC

On 4/5/22 1:16 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 11:59 AM, Andy Walker wrote:
>> On 04/04/2022 14:28, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> [I wrote:]
>>>>     The reasons why it's not possible to write a halt decider show
>>>> up perfectly well if you try to do so in K&R C for a PDP 11 [64K bytes
>>>> code, same for date, 2.4M discs, ...].  They're not things that can
>>>> only be done with supercomputers with hundreds of processors, etc.
>>>> These interminable threads get hung up on the behaviour of programs of
>>>> less than a page of code.
>>> Now here there is technical wrinkle.  One can, probably, prove that
>>> halting of bounded-resource computations can't be solved by certain
>>> similarly bounded-resource machines.  But who'd want to do the maths to
>>> prove that?  And if the decider has unbounded resources, then halting of
>>> bounded-resource computations /is/ decidable -- trivially so.
>>
>>      Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
>> the manifestly impossible.  I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
>> students who visited two or three years later:  "What are you doing?"
>> "Oh,
>> my boss got fed up with [programs that something-or-other, I forget
>> what],
>> so he wanted me to write a program that detects [whatever-it-was]."  "But
>> that's not possible, it's a simple reduction from the HP!"  "Oh, no, I've
>> almost done it, just a couple of cases to sort out."  A few months later,
>> he came by again:  "Sorted those, but there are a few bugs."  "Hm, well,
>> good luck, but I still think it's impossible."  A few months again, and
>> I got a letter [these were the days before e-mail!] -- "You were right!
>> It could do the toy examples I gave it, but it got stuck with any real
>> programs, and I can't make progress, so we've given up."
>>
>>      PO's problems with his "fully coded TMs" aren't caused by his PC
>> being finite, nor by limitations of C or his OS, nor even [as far as we
>> know] by bugs in his "emulator", but by his failures to understand what
>> the HP is really about, and his failures to produce a proper "hatted"
>> version of his attempts to solve it.
>>
>
> I say the issue is exactly the opposite of this, I am the only one with
> a correct understanding of what a halt decider must do.
>
> WE ALL AGREE ON THIS:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state.
>
> HERE IS WHERE WE DIVERGE:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state:
>
> On the basis of the actual behavior actually specified by its input.
>
> All of my reviewers (and Linz) always measure a different sequence of
> configurations than the one the is actually specified by the actual input.
>

The PROBLEM SPECIFICATION is that H applied to <M> w needs to examine
the behavior of M applied to w. THAT is the sequence of configuration
that the input represents to ANY 'Halt Decider'. PERIOD.

YOU think it is something different, and YOU are the one who is wrong.

This isn't "Linz's" definition, this is the ACTUAL DEFINTION from the
origin of the problem.

THAT IS THE TRUE MEANING OF THE WORDS, and any disagreement just makes
you wrong.

FAIL.

>
>>> When trying to get PO to see how to specify a computation, I don't want
>>> to deal with all the distractions that using some abstract C with no
>>> pointer limitations will throw up.
>>
>>      Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
>> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want.  I wonder
>> how he
>> would get on with similar exercises in C, where he's not struggling with
>> the concept of unary [and efficiency] but could simply count and perhaps
>> analyse characters in the standard input?  [FTAOD, "wonder" is something
>> of an exaggeration.]
>>
>
>

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<Y82dnTSZ-dHYTNH_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>

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 by: olcott - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:31 UTC

On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary
>>>>>>>>>>> notation
>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be strings
>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.
>>>>>>>>> The TM
>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the
>>>>>>>>> usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation
>>>>>>> and one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the
>>>>>>> former is much simpler.
>>>
>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose your
>>> fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>
>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>
> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't* have
> even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above analogy is
> hardly apropos.
>
>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a base-2
>> even-number decider in this system:
>>
>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>
> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the actual TM?
>

It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my specification.

> Then do the same thing using a unary representation so you can
> understand why this option is actually simpler.
>
> If you're going to claim to be the only one in the universe who really
> understands how a halt decider works, you could at least demonstrate an
> understanding of truly trivial deciders.
>
> André
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2ijvp$nsk$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29436&group=comp.theory#29436

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:39:36 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
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 by: André G. Isaak - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:39 UTC

On 2022-04-05 17:31, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in
>>>>>>>>>>>> unary notation
>>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be
>>>>>>>>>> strings of the
>>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.
>>>>>>>>>> The TM
>>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the
>>>>>>>>>> usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation
>>>>>>>> and one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the
>>>>>>>> former is much simpler.
>>>>
>>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>>>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose your
>>>> fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>>
>>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>>
>> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't* have
>> even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above analogy
>> is hardly apropos.
>>
>>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a base-2
>>> even-number decider in this system:
>>>
>>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>>
>> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the actual TM?
>>
>
> It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my specification.

What you give above is not a specification. A specification is what Ben
has been asking you to provide but which you have been unable or
unwilling to do.

What you have above is an outline of an algorithm. But being able to
provide an outline of an algorithm does not demonstrate that you know
how to construct a Turing Machine which implements this algorithm.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<kY2dnVPekuQXSNH_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>

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 by: olcott - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:49 UTC

On 4/5/2022 6:39 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-05 17:31, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unary notation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be
>>>>>>>>>>> strings of the
>>>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.
>>>>>>>>>>> The TM
>>>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the
>>>>>>>>>>> usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary notation
>>>>>>>>> and one that does it using binary notation? You'll find the
>>>>>>>>> former is much simpler.
>>>>>
>>>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>>>>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose your
>>>>> fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>>>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>>>
>>> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't* have
>>> even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above analogy
>>> is hardly apropos.
>>>
>>>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a base-2
>>>> even-number decider in this system:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>>>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>>>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>>>
>>> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the actual
>>> TM?
>>>
>>
>> It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my
>> specification.
>
> What you give above is not a specification. A specification is what Ben
> has been asking you to provide but which you have been unable or
> unwilling to do.
>

If neither of you can see how the above would be translated into a TM of
this kind: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
You are not too bright.

> What you have above is an outline of an algorithm. But being able to
> provide an outline of an algorithm does not demonstrate that you know
> how to construct a Turing Machine which implements this algorithm.
>
> André
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2il0q$tok$1@dont-email.me>

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:57:13 -0600
Organization: Christians and Atheists United Against Creeping Agnosticism
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 by: André G. Isaak - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 23:57 UTC

On 2022-04-05 17:49, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 6:39 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-05 17:31, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unary notation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be
>>>>>>>>>>>> strings of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The TM
>>>>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary
>>>>>>>>>> notation and one that does it using binary notation? You'll
>>>>>>>>>> find the former is much simpler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>>>>>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose your
>>>>>> fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>>>>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>>>>
>>>> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't* have
>>>> even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above analogy
>>>> is hardly apropos.
>>>>
>>>>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a base-2
>>>>> even-number decider in this system:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>>>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>>>>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>>>>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>>>>
>>>> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the
>>>> actual TM?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my
>>> specification.
>>
>> What you give above is not a specification. A specification is what
>> Ben has been asking you to provide but which you have been unable or
>> unwilling to do.
>>
>
> If neither of you can see how the above would be translated into a TM of
> this kind: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
> You are not too bright.

The task I suggested for you was to construct both an evenness-decider
that uses binary representations and one that uses unary representations
so you could see why the latter is simpler. Giving an outline of a
single algorithm without actually constructing the two Turing Machines
is not going to achieve that. As I said, these TMs are of the "Hello
World!" level of difficulty, so your reluctance is a bit mystifying.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<ALedndWigPV3RdH_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29439&group=comp.theory#29439

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 00:03 UTC

On 4/5/2022 6:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-05 17:49, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 6:39 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-05 17:31, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unary notation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The TM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary
>>>>>>>>>>> notation and one that does it using binary notation? You'll
>>>>>>>>>>> find the former is much simpler.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>>>>>>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose
>>>>>>> your fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>>>>>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>>>>>
>>>>> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't*
>>>>> have even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above
>>>>> analogy is hardly apropos.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a
>>>>>> base-2 even-number decider in this system:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>>>>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>>>>>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>>>>>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>>>>>
>>>>> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the
>>>>> actual TM?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my
>>>> specification.
>>>
>>> What you give above is not a specification. A specification is what
>>> Ben has been asking you to provide but which you have been unable or
>>> unwilling to do.
>>>
>>
>> If neither of you can see how the above would be translated into a TM of
>> this kind: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>> You are not too bright.
>
> The task I suggested for you was to construct both an evenness-decider
> that uses binary representations and one that uses unary representations
> so you could see why the latter is simpler. Giving an outline of a
> single algorithm without actually constructing the two Turing Machines
> is not going to achieve that. As I said, these TMs are of the "Hello
> World!" level of difficulty, so your reluctance is a bit mystifying.
>
> André

That may or may not prove helpful to achieve mutual understanding of the
last sentence shown here: (Its pointless if it doesn't help with this).

WE ALL AGREE ON THIS:
A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
its own accept or reject state.

HERE IS WHERE WE DIVERGE:
A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
its own accept or reject state:

On the basis of the actual behavior actually specified by its input.

THIS IS EVERYONE'S MISTAKE
All of my reviewers (and Linz) always measure a different sequence of
configurations than the one that is actually specified by the actual input.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2im15$465$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29440&group=comp.theory#29440

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: André G. Isaak - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 00:14 UTC

On 2022-04-05 18:03, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 6:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-05 17:49, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 6:39 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:31, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unary notation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x. The TM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary
>>>>>>>>>>>> notation and one that does it using binary notation? You'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> find the former is much simpler.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>>>>>>>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose
>>>>>>>> your fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>>>>>>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't*
>>>>>> have even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above
>>>>>> analogy is hardly apropos.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a
>>>>>>> base-2 even-number decider in this system:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>>>>>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>>>>>>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>>>>>>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the
>>>>>> actual TM?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my
>>>>> specification.
>>>>
>>>> What you give above is not a specification. A specification is what
>>>> Ben has been asking you to provide but which you have been unable or
>>>> unwilling to do.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If neither of you can see how the above would be translated into a TM of
>>> this kind: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>> You are not too bright.
>>
>> The task I suggested for you was to construct both an evenness-decider
>> that uses binary representations and one that uses unary
>> representations so you could see why the latter is simpler. Giving an
>> outline of a single algorithm without actually constructing the two
>> Turing Machines is not going to achieve that. As I said, these TMs are
>> of the "Hello World!" level of difficulty, so your reluctance is a bit
>> mystifying.
>>
>> André
>
> That may or may not prove helpful to achieve mutual understanding of the
> last sentence shown here: (Its pointless if it doesn't help with this).

If it may prove helpful, what's the harm in spending the five minutes
necessary to creating the actual Turing Machines?

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<H9adnXAi4_wjQNH_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=29441&group=comp.theory#29441

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 00:24 UTC

On 4/5/2022 7:14 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-05 18:03, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/5/2022 6:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-05 17:49, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2022 6:39 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:31, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unary notation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x. The TM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notation and one that does it using binary notation? You'll
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find the former is much simpler.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd
>>>>>>>>> base greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM.
>>>>>>>>> Lose your fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>>>>>>>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't*
>>>>>>> have even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above
>>>>>>> analogy is hardly apropos.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a
>>>>>>>> base-2 even-number decider in this system:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>>>>>>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>>>>>>>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>>>>>>>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the
>>>>>>> actual TM?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my
>>>>>> specification.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you give above is not a specification. A specification is what
>>>>> Ben has been asking you to provide but which you have been unable
>>>>> or unwilling to do.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If neither of you can see how the above would be translated into a
>>>> TM of
>>>> this kind: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>>> You are not too bright.
>>>
>>> The task I suggested for you was to construct both an
>>> evenness-decider that uses binary representations and one that uses
>>> unary representations so you could see why the latter is simpler.
>>> Giving an outline of a single algorithm without actually constructing
>>> the two Turing Machines is not going to achieve that. As I said,
>>> these TMs are of the "Hello World!" level of difficulty, so your
>>> reluctance is a bit mystifying.
>>>
>>> André
>>
>> That may or may not prove helpful to achieve mutual understanding of
>> the last sentence shown here: (Its pointless if it doesn't help with
>> this).
>
> If it may prove helpful, what's the harm in spending the five minutes
> necessary to creating the actual Turing Machines?
>
> André
>
>

It is not five minutes, it is probably an hour to just totally
understand all of the details of the interface. I do already understand
the quintuple language. It is the same thing as my patented DFA based
OCR technology when simplified 10,000-fold.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 00:40 UTC

On 4/5/22 8:03 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 6:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-05 17:49, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2022 6:39 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:31, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2022 6:25 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 17:05, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 5:32 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 4:24 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 15:02, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 3:57 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-05 11:07, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unary notation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No.  This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Write a TM that adds two numbers.  The input will be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x. The TM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Now do the same where the numbers are represented in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the usual decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    notation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then why not construct a TM that does this using unary
>>>>>>>>>>>> notation and one that does it using binary notation? You'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> find the former is much simpler.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And while you are at it, try base three numbers (or any odd base
>>>>>>>> greater than one). But no matter what, try writing a TM. Lose
>>>>>>>> your fear of public failure and dive in somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is not a fear of failure nitwit.
>>>>>>> It is like asking a brain surgeon do you know what a bed pan is?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except that you have consistently demonstrated that you *don't*
>>>>>> have even the vaguest understanding of how TMs work, so the above
>>>>>> analogy is hardly apropos.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The most direct path forward on this might be to implement a
>>>>>>> base-2 even-number decider in this system:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>>>>>> (a) Go to the end of the input (space delimited)
>>>>>>> (b) Test last input tape cell for "0" digit
>>>>>>> (c) Accept or Reject input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So why not just demonstrate how this works by constructing the
>>>>>> actual TM?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is self-evident that I know exactly how this works by my
>>>>> specification.
>>>>
>>>> What you give above is not a specification. A specification is what
>>>> Ben has been asking you to provide but which you have been unable or
>>>> unwilling to do.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If neither of you can see how the above would be translated into a TM of
>>> this kind: http://www.lns.mit.edu/~dsw/turing/turing.html
>>> You are not too bright.
>>
>> The task I suggested for you was to construct both an evenness-decider
>> that uses binary representations and one that uses unary
>> representations so you could see why the latter is simpler. Giving an
>> outline of a single algorithm without actually constructing the two
>> Turing Machines is not going to achieve that. As I said, these TMs are
>> of the "Hello World!" level of difficulty, so your reluctance is a bit
>> mystifying.
>>
>> André
>
> That may or may not prove helpful to achieve mutual understanding of the
> last sentence shown here: (Its pointless if it doesn't help with this).
>
> WE ALL AGREE ON THIS:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state.
>
> HERE IS WHERE WE DIVERGE:
> A halt decider must compute the mapping from its input finite strings to
> its own accept or reject state:
>
> On the basis of the actual behavior actually specified by its input.
>
> THIS IS EVERYONE'S MISTAKE
> All of my reviewers (and Linz) always measure a different sequence of
> configurations than the one that is actually specified by the actual input.
>

The issue is the DEFINITION of the 'actual behavior actually specified
by its input'

Since the SPECIFICATION of a Halt Decider is:

H applied to <M> w needs to go to Qy if M applied to w reaches a final
state and to Qn if M applied to w will never reach a final atate.

It is CLEAR that the ONLY 'meaning' of the 'behavior' of the input
string "<H^> <H^>" as the behavior of H^ applied to <H^>, which you have
specifically denied, that YOU are the one with the wrong definition.

Note, this isn't a definition that Linz came up with, but the essential
definition that the problem started with about 100 years ago when Turing
Developed the idea, and directly relates to the problem he was trying to
solve.

That you don't understand this doesn't make the defintion wrong, it
makes YOU wrong.

FAIL.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<87k0c33rk3.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 01:54 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/4/2022 6:14 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 2:51 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

>>>>>>>> Here's a supporting exercise. Write down at least half a dozen strings
>>>>>>>> that might be passed to P. At least one of them should be a string that
>>>>>>>> P must accept and at least one must be a string the P should reject, but
>>>>>>>> you should say, for each one, whether P accepts of rejects it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (is prime?)
>>>>>>> 1 yes
>>>>>>> 2 no
>>>>>> 2 is prime, 1 is not. I'll assume this is a typo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3 yes
>>>>>>> 4 no
>>>>>>> 5 yes
>>>>>>> 6 no
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Be prepared for me to raise questions about what the strings
>>>>>>>> represent.
>>>>>> So what about the following strings:
>>>>>> 0x11
>>>>>> IX
>>>>>> nineteen
>>>>>> 1001
>>>>>> सहस्र
>>>>>> ?
>>>> You commented on only one of these.
>>>>
>>>>> I would simply make tape elements UTF-32.
>>>> (1) UTF-32 (both of them!) are transfer encodings and TMs work on
>>>> abstract symbols. The encoding of the symbols is immaterial.
>>>> (2) You could define the tape alphabet to includes all Unicode symbols
>>>> but there is no point. You need no more the one symbol to represent any
>>>> number, so that would be adding unnecessary complexity.
>>>
>>> Less than two seems too counter-intuitive, thus cumbersome.
>> But this is just because you have not yet written a TM. For many tasks,
>> unary makes the TM much simpler -- by an order of magnitude in many cases.
>>
>
> OK.
>
>>> Complexity is not the size of the encoding it is the mental effort
>>> required to achieve complete understanding.
>> For numerical problems there is less mental effort involved with unary.
>> That's why tally sticks can be found dating from the Palaeolithic.
>>
>
> OK.
>
>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary notation
>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>
>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>> No. This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>> Write a TM that adds two numbers. The input will be strings of the
>> form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x. The TM
>> should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>
>> Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual decimal
>> notation.
>
> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.

The same is true for binary. But you'd know this if you'd tried. Does
this mean you are not going to try?

>> The first part is easy and you should definitely do it, especially as
>> the "even" decider is proving too big a step. This adder is easier to
>> write than E.
>
> What is there to an binary E decider besides verifying that the last
> digit is a 0 ?

Almost nothing. What's holding you up? I am having trouble seeing how
I can help.

>>>> (2) Algorithms are usually many orders of magnitude more complex than
>>>> specifications.
>>>
>>> With a mapping between many levels of abstraction complexity remains
>>> pretty constant. Every element at every level only has very few parts.
>>
>> But when there is no algorithm? All you have is the top-level
>> specification of what is wanted. Would you like me to set an exercise
>> consisting of a problem for which you won't be able to find an
>> algorithm?
>
> If a problem has no solution then cateogorically exhaustive reasoning
> will determine that the category where a solution could be found does
> not exist.

I can't make head or tail of this. Without a specification there is no
defined decision problem.

>>>>>> Since this is taking way longer than I had thought, you can just ask me
>>>>>> how I'd do it and you can see if you agree or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything that you think is best.
>>>> In my experience, people learn best when they solve problems on their
>>>> own with a little help, but since I'm not sure why this is proving so
>>>> hard for you, I don't know what help you need.
>>>
>>> Basically what I am doing is structured programming that has been
>>> elaborated 1000-fold more robust. I think in terms of multiple levels
>>> of hierarchies thus able to organize enormous complexity as simple
>>> connections between simple things.
>> That does no explain why you have not yet been able to specify a simple
>> TM like P.
>
> The way that you frame things mentally is not the same way that I
> frame them mentally.

Do you mean you may not be able to do these exercises?

>>>>> I think that we are finally on a path of full mutual dialogue.
>>>> I had hoped you would be able to specify a simple TM by this time, but
>>>> you are struggling with that task. I'll show you what I'd write for you
>>>> to comment on, but I don't think that's the best way for you to learn.
>>>> My first stab at it might be:
>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if S is prime, and
>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>> No good because S is a string not a number. Another go:
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ultimately the entire set of human knowledge is merely string transformation rules.
>>>
>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if the number represented by S is prime, and
>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>> Much better. But this does not say exactly what the representation
>>>> should be. How about this:
>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if S is the conventional binary representation of a
>>>> prime number, and
>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is good we keep making headway.
>>>
>>>> It's still not watertight but it covers all the important bases. The TM
>>>> should reject "nineteen" and "2001" but must accept "10" and
>>>> "100000000000000000111".
>>>
>>> If we only have binary digits then "Hello how are you?" would be
>>> construed as a binary integer that must be tested.
>>
>> That depends on the TMs alphabet. If it includes such symbols then of
>> course the TM must test that string. But, in my experience, students
>> are clever at reducing work. When asked to write a TM they will pick an
>> alphabet that makes the task as simple as possible.
>
> When we have the typical single bit alphabet representation cannot
> possibly be an issue because there is only a single representation for
> everything a finite string of "1".

I don't think you understood what I was saying here. One problem I see
is that you are asking me far fewer questions than I would have
expected. If you don't know what I am asking for, asking me for
clarification is the simplest solution.

>>>> What I had hoped to be the lesson from this is that the starting point
>>>> when asking if some set is decidable is an agreed representation for
>>>> instances (in this case just numbers). Once we have that we will be
>>>> prepared to be lax and say things like "the prime numbers are a
>>>> decidable set" even though it's really "here is a mapping between
>>>> strings and numbers such that there is a TM that accepts only those
>>>> strings that map to prime numbers".
>>>
>>> That is why I started with ASCII digits.
>>
>> I don't see a connection between the paragraph I write and this remark.
>> When that happens (as a teacher) I worry that you have not understood
>> the paragraph. Normally, I'd ask a few question to see if the student
>> had understood, but that's no ideal using Usenet. I propose to press on
>> assuming you did understand.
>
> OK
>
>>>> So, next exercise. Go back to E. Specify how you want the "problem
>>>> instances" (the numbers) to be represented and then specify the TM in a
>>>> similar way to the way I did for P:
>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy if ???
>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn otherwise.
>>>
>>> If S in {0,2,4,6,8} then E
>> Hmm... Not sure what the problem is here. What should you write in
>> place of the ??? to make the specification of E clear.
>
> I put a variable name as a placeholder for a string of characters.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<87ee2b3rgb.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 02:56:20 +0100
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 01:56 UTC

Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:

> On 04/04/2022 14:28, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> [I wrote:]
>>> The reasons why it's not possible to write a halt decider show
>>> up perfectly well if you try to do so in K&R C for a PDP 11 [64K bytes
>>> code, same for date, 2.4M discs, ...]. They're not things that can
>>> only be done with supercomputers with hundreds of processors, etc.
>>> These interminable threads get hung up on the behaviour of programs of
>>> less than a page of code.
>> Now here there is technical wrinkle. One can, probably, prove that
>> halting of bounded-resource computations can't be solved by certain
>> similarly bounded-resource machines. But who'd want to do the maths to
>> prove that? And if the decider has unbounded resources, then halting of
>> bounded-resource computations /is/ decidable -- trivially so.
>
> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
> students who visited two or three years later: "What are you doing?" "Oh,
> my boss got fed up with [programs that something-or-other, I forget what],
> so he wanted me to write a program that detects [whatever-it-was]." "But
> that's not possible, it's a simple reduction from the HP!" "Oh, no, I've
> almost done it, just a couple of cases to sort out." A few months later,
> he came by again: "Sorted those, but there are a few bugs." "Hm, well,
> good luck, but I still think it's impossible." A few months again, and
> I got a letter [these were the days before e-mail!] -- "You were right!
> It could do the toy examples I gave it, but it got stuck with any real
> programs, and I can't make progress, so we've given up."
>
> PO's problems with his "fully coded TMs" aren't caused by his PC
> being finite, nor by limitations of C or his OS, nor even [as far as we
> know] by bugs in his "emulator", but by his failures to understand what
> the HP is really about, and his failures to produce a proper "hatted"
> version of his attempts to solve it.
>
>> When trying to get PO to see how to specify a computation, I don't want
>> to deal with all the distractions that using some abstract C with no
>> pointer limitations will throw up.
>
> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want. I wonder how he
> would get on with similar exercises in C, where he's not struggling with
> the concept of unary [and efficiency] but could simply count and perhaps
> analyse characters in the standard input? [FTAOD, "wonder" is something
> of an exaggeration.]

Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
one TM accurately specified, let alone written.

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<878rsj3rdn.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 01:57 UTC

Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> writes:

> On 04/04/2022 14:28, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> [I wrote:]
>>> The reasons why it's not possible to write a halt decider show
>>> up perfectly well if you try to do so in K&R C for a PDP 11 [64K bytes
>>> code, same for date, 2.4M discs, ...]. They're not things that can
>>> only be done with supercomputers with hundreds of processors, etc.
>>> These interminable threads get hung up on the behaviour of programs of
>>> less than a page of code.
>> Now here there is technical wrinkle. One can, probably, prove that
>> halting of bounded-resource computations can't be solved by certain
>> similarly bounded-resource machines. But who'd want to do the maths to
>> prove that? And if the decider has unbounded resources, then halting of
>> bounded-resource computations /is/ decidable -- trivially so.
>
> Yes, but I was thinking of real, skilled, programmers trying to do
> the manifestly impossible. I have in mind one of our [successful!] MSc
> students who visited two or three years later: "What are you doing?" "Oh,
> my boss got fed up with [programs that something-or-other, I forget what],
> so he wanted me to write a program that detects [whatever-it-was]." "But
> that's not possible, it's a simple reduction from the HP!" "Oh, no, I've
> almost done it, just a couple of cases to sort out." A few months later,
> he came by again: "Sorted those, but there are a few bugs." "Hm, well,
> good luck, but I still think it's impossible." A few months again, and
> I got a letter [these were the days before e-mail!] -- "You were right!
> It could do the toy examples I gave it, but it got stuck with any real
> programs, and I can't make progress, so we've given up."

What used to be called a "conversion MSc"?

> PO's problems with his "fully coded TMs" aren't caused by his PC
> being finite, nor by limitations of C or his OS, nor even [as far as we
> know] by bugs in his "emulator", but by his failures to understand what
> the HP is really about, and his failures to produce a proper "hatted"
> version of his attempts to solve it.
>
>> When trying to get PO to see how to specify a computation, I don't want
>> to deal with all the distractions that using some abstract C with no
>> pointer limitations will throw up.
>
> Instead, you're having to deal with his apparent [but he may just
> be trolling] difficulties in understanding what you want. I wonder how he
> would get on with similar exercises in C, where he's not struggling with
> the concept of unary [and efficiency] but could simply count and perhaps
> analyse characters in the standard input? [FTAOD, "wonder" is something
> of an exaggeration.]

Right. I think TMs may be a step too far. I don't think I'll get even
one TM accurately specified, let alone written.

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 02:15 UTC

On 4/5/2022 8:54 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 6:14 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 2:51 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> Here's a supporting exercise. Write down at least half a dozen strings
>>>>>>>>> that might be passed to P. At least one of them should be a string that
>>>>>>>>> P must accept and at least one must be a string the P should reject, but
>>>>>>>>> you should say, for each one, whether P accepts of rejects it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (is prime?)
>>>>>>>> 1 yes
>>>>>>>> 2 no
>>>>>>> 2 is prime, 1 is not. I'll assume this is a typo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3 yes
>>>>>>>> 4 no
>>>>>>>> 5 yes
>>>>>>>> 6 no
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Be prepared for me to raise questions about what the strings
>>>>>>>>> represent.
>>>>>>> So what about the following strings:
>>>>>>> 0x11
>>>>>>> IX
>>>>>>> nineteen
>>>>>>> 1001
>>>>>>> सहस्र
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>> You commented on only one of these.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would simply make tape elements UTF-32.
>>>>> (1) UTF-32 (both of them!) are transfer encodings and TMs work on
>>>>> abstract symbols. The encoding of the symbols is immaterial.
>>>>> (2) You could define the tape alphabet to includes all Unicode symbols
>>>>> but there is no point. You need no more the one symbol to represent any
>>>>> number, so that would be adding unnecessary complexity.
>>>>
>>>> Less than two seems too counter-intuitive, thus cumbersome.
>>> But this is just because you have not yet written a TM. For many tasks,
>>> unary makes the TM much simpler -- by an order of magnitude in many cases.
>>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>>> Complexity is not the size of the encoding it is the mental effort
>>>> required to achieve complete understanding.
>>> For numerical problems there is less mental effort involved with unary.
>>> That's why tally sticks can be found dating from the Palaeolithic.
>>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary notation
>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>
>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>> No. This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>> Write a TM that adds two numbers. The input will be strings of the
>>> form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x. The TM
>>> should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>
>>> Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual decimal
>>> notation.
>>
>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>
> The same is true for binary. But you'd know this if you'd tried. Does
> this mean you are not going to try?
>
>>> The first part is easy and you should definitely do it, especially as
>>> the "even" decider is proving too big a step. This adder is easier to
>>> write than E.
>>
>> What is there to an binary E decider besides verifying that the last
>> digit is a 0 ?
>
> Almost nothing. What's holding you up? I am having trouble seeing how
> I can help.
>

Then the exercise of doing it is of negligable benefit.

>>>>> (2) Algorithms are usually many orders of magnitude more complex than
>>>>> specifications.
>>>>
>>>> With a mapping between many levels of abstraction complexity remains
>>>> pretty constant. Every element at every level only has very few parts.
>>>
>>> But when there is no algorithm? All you have is the top-level
>>> specification of what is wanted. Would you like me to set an exercise
>>> consisting of a problem for which you won't be able to find an
>>> algorithm?
>>
>> If a problem has no solution then cateogorically exhaustive reasoning
>> will determine that the category where a solution could be found does
>> not exist.
>
> I can't make head or tail of this. Without a specification there is no
> defined decision problem.
>

The above is a system of reasoning such that the error of omission is
impossible. It is the ultimate basis of all of my work.

>>>>>>> Since this is taking way longer than I had thought, you can just ask me
>>>>>>> how I'd do it and you can see if you agree or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anything that you think is best.
>>>>> In my experience, people learn best when they solve problems on their
>>>>> own with a little help, but since I'm not sure why this is proving so
>>>>> hard for you, I don't know what help you need.
>>>>
>>>> Basically what I am doing is structured programming that has been
>>>> elaborated 1000-fold more robust. I think in terms of multiple levels
>>>> of hierarchies thus able to organize enormous complexity as simple
>>>> connections between simple things.
>>> That does no explain why you have not yet been able to specify a simple
>>> TM like P.
>>
>> The way that you frame things mentally is not the same way that I
>> frame them mentally.
>
> Do you mean you may not be able to do these exercises?
>

We can still keep pressing on.
Ultimately the whole purpose of all of this is to simply achieve mutual
understanding of a single English sentence, posted today.

>>>>>> I think that we are finally on a path of full mutual dialogue.
>>>>> I had hoped you would be able to specify a simple TM by this time, but
>>>>> you are struggling with that task. I'll show you what I'd write for you
>>>>> to comment on, but I don't think that's the best way for you to learn.
>>>>> My first stab at it might be:
>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if S is prime, and
>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>>> No good because S is a string not a number. Another go:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately the entire set of human knowledge is merely string transformation rules.
>>>>
>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if the number represented by S is prime, and
>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>>> Much better. But this does not say exactly what the representation
>>>>> should be. How about this:
>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if S is the conventional binary representation of a
>>>>> prime number, and
>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is good we keep making headway.
>>>>
>>>>> It's still not watertight but it covers all the important bases. The TM
>>>>> should reject "nineteen" and "2001" but must accept "10" and
>>>>> "100000000000000000111".
>>>>
>>>> If we only have binary digits then "Hello how are you?" would be
>>>> construed as a binary integer that must be tested.
>>>
>>> That depends on the TMs alphabet. If it includes such symbols then of
>>> course the TM must test that string. But, in my experience, students
>>> are clever at reducing work. When asked to write a TM they will pick an
>>> alphabet that makes the task as simple as possible.
>>
>> When we have the typical single bit alphabet representation cannot
>> possibly be an issue because there is only a single representation for
>> everything a finite string of "1".
>
> I don't think you understood what I was saying here. One problem I see
> is that you are asking me far fewer questions than I would have
> expected. If you don't know what I am asking for, asking me for
> clarification is the simplest solution.
>


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<87o81e3mso.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2022 04:36:55 +0100
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 03:36 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/5/2022 8:54 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/5/2022 9:40 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/4/2022 7:57 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 6:14 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2022 2:51 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Here's a supporting exercise. Write down at least half a dozen strings
>>>>>>>>>> that might be passed to P. At least one of them should be a string that
>>>>>>>>>> P must accept and at least one must be a string the P should reject, but
>>>>>>>>>> you should say, for each one, whether P accepts of rejects it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (is prime?)
>>>>>>>>> 1 yes
>>>>>>>>> 2 no
>>>>>>>> 2 is prime, 1 is not. I'll assume this is a typo.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3 yes
>>>>>>>>> 4 no
>>>>>>>>> 5 yes
>>>>>>>>> 6 no
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Be prepared for me to raise questions about what the strings
>>>>>>>>>> represent.
>>>>>>>> So what about the following strings:
>>>>>>>> 0x11
>>>>>>>> IX
>>>>>>>> nineteen
>>>>>>>> 1001
>>>>>>>> सहस्र
>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>> You commented on only one of these.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would simply make tape elements UTF-32.
>>>>>> (1) UTF-32 (both of them!) are transfer encodings and TMs work on
>>>>>> abstract symbols. The encoding of the symbols is immaterial.
>>>>>> (2) You could define the tape alphabet to includes all Unicode symbols
>>>>>> but there is no point. You need no more the one symbol to represent any
>>>>>> number, so that would be adding unnecessary complexity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Less than two seems too counter-intuitive, thus cumbersome.
>>>> But this is just because you have not yet written a TM. For many tasks,
>>>> unary makes the TM much simpler -- by an order of magnitude in many cases.
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>>>> Complexity is not the size of the encoding it is the mental effort
>>>>> required to achieve complete understanding.
>>>> For numerical problems there is less mental effort involved with unary.
>>>> That's why tally sticks can be found dating from the Palaeolithic.
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>>>>> Aside: TMs are often specified to operate on numbers in unary notation
>>>>>> because it is so simple.
>>>>>
>>>>> The notation is simple making the algorithm more complex.
>>>> No. This exercise will help you see why that is not true:
>>>> Write a TM that adds two numbers. The input will be strings of the
>>>> form {n}+{m} where {x} is the unary representation of x. The TM
>>>> should halt with only {n+m} on the tape.
>>>>
>>>> Now do the same where the numbers are represented in the usual decimal
>>>> notation.
>>>
>>> I was referring to the difference between binary and unary.
>> The same is true for binary. But you'd know this if you'd tried. Does
>> this mean you are not going to try?
>>
>>>> The first part is easy and you should definitely do it, especially as
>>>> the "even" decider is proving too big a step. This adder is easier to
>>>> write than E.
>>>
>>> What is there to an binary E decider besides verifying that the last
>>> digit is a 0 ?
>>
>> Almost nothing. What's holding you up? I am having trouble seeing how
>> I can help.
>
> Then the exercise of doing it is of negligable benefit.

I think you would benefit from writing an actual TM, fully encoded. You
don't have to. I thought you were prepared to trust my experience
teaching this material.

>>>>>> (2) Algorithms are usually many orders of magnitude more complex than
>>>>>> specifications.
>>>>>
>>>>> With a mapping between many levels of abstraction complexity remains
>>>>> pretty constant. Every element at every level only has very few parts.
>>>>
>>>> But when there is no algorithm? All you have is the top-level
>>>> specification of what is wanted. Would you like me to set an exercise
>>>> consisting of a problem for which you won't be able to find an
>>>> algorithm?
>>>
>>> If a problem has no solution then cateogorically exhaustive reasoning
>>> will determine that the category where a solution could be found does
>>> not exist.
>> I can't make head or tail of this. Without a specification there is no
>> defined decision problem.
>>
> The above is a system of reasoning such that the error of omission is
> impossible. It is the ultimate basis of all of my work.

I think we should put this to one side. I don't think this will help
you to specify and write E.

>>>>>>>> Since this is taking way longer than I had thought, you can just ask me
>>>>>>>> how I'd do it and you can see if you agree or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anything that you think is best.
>>>>>> In my experience, people learn best when they solve problems on their
>>>>>> own with a little help, but since I'm not sure why this is proving so
>>>>>> hard for you, I don't know what help you need.
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically what I am doing is structured programming that has been
>>>>> elaborated 1000-fold more robust. I think in terms of multiple levels
>>>>> of hierarchies thus able to organize enormous complexity as simple
>>>>> connections between simple things.
>>>> That does no explain why you have not yet been able to specify a simple
>>>> TM like P.
>>>
>>> The way that you frame things mentally is not the same way that I
>>> frame them mentally.
>>
>> Do you mean you may not be able to do these exercises?
>>
> We can still keep pressing on.

OK.

> Ultimately the whole purpose of all of this is to simply achieve
> mutual understanding of a single English sentence, posted today.
>
>>>>>>> I think that we are finally on a path of full mutual dialogue.
>>>>>> I had hoped you would be able to specify a simple TM by this time, but
>>>>>> you are struggling with that task. I'll show you what I'd write for you
>>>>>> to comment on, but I don't think that's the best way for you to learn.
>>>>>> My first stab at it might be:
>>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if S is prime, and
>>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>>>> No good because S is a string not a number. Another go:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ultimately the entire set of human knowledge is merely string transformation rules.
>>>>>
>>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if the number represented by S is prime, and
>>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>>>> Much better. But this does not say exactly what the representation
>>>>>> should be. How about this:
>>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qy if S is the conventional binary representation of a
>>>>>> prime number, and
>>>>>> P.q0 S ⊦* P.qn otherwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is good we keep making headway.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's still not watertight but it covers all the important bases. The TM
>>>>>> should reject "nineteen" and "2001" but must accept "10" and
>>>>>> "100000000000000000111".
>>>>>
>>>>> If we only have binary digits then "Hello how are you?" would be
>>>>> construed as a binary integer that must be tested.
>>>>
>>>> That depends on the TMs alphabet. If it includes such symbols then of
>>>> course the TM must test that string. But, in my experience, students
>>>> are clever at reducing work. When asked to write a TM they will pick an
>>>> alphabet that makes the task as simple as possible.
>>>
>>> When we have the typical single bit alphabet representation cannot
>>> possibly be an issue because there is only a single representation for
>>> everything a finite string of "1".
>> I don't think you understood what I was saying here. One problem I see
>> is that you are asking me far fewer questions than I would have
>> expected. If you don't know what I am asking for, asking me for
>> clarification is the simplest solution.
>
> Any talk of "representations" for a machine that only has single bits
> is ridiculous.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 04:00 UTC

On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

>> The above is a system of reasoning such that the error of omission is
>> impossible. It is the ultimate basis of all of my work.
>
> I think we should put this to one side. I don't think this will help
> you to specify and write E.
>

We don't have to get into the details now, yet categorically exhaustive
is the only way the problems such as this can be solved.

The only way that I can show that the halting proofs are incorrect is to
find something like a hidden false assumption buried in the proof that
no one ever noticed before.

>> I forgot to move to the last tape element of the finite string.
>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy if S represents an even number
>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn otherwise.
>
> Yeah! That's a good forst stab at it. I'd have preferred you to say
> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but I'll
> take it.
>

The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.

>>>>>>> Now actually write out, in full, a TM that meets your specification.
>
>> I have already fully specified E,
>> Do you think that I can't possibly code it correctly?
>
> I don't know. The point of the exercises is to get a deeper
> understanding of what TMs are. Writing a few is essential.
>

I might write E. To simply write E might not take very long.
Sometimes even compiling source code can take all day.

>>> Shall I just wait a bit longer? Is there anything you need to ask?
>>
>> I have already fully specified E,
>> Do you think that I can't possibly code it correctly?
>
> I don't know. Can you?
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 10:51 UTC

On 4/6/22 12:00 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>>> The above is a system of reasoning such that the error of omission is
>>> impossible. It is the ultimate basis of all of my work.
>>
>> I think we should put this to one side.  I don't think this will help
>> you to specify and write E.
>>
>
> We don't have to get into the details now, yet categorically exhaustive
> is the only way the problems such as this can be solved.
>
> The only way that I can show that the halting proofs are incorrect is to
> find something like a hidden false assumption buried in the proof that
> no one ever noticed before.

Right, to show the proof wrong, you need to show that some step in the
proof has an actual error.

>
>>> I forgot to move to the last tape element of the finite string.
>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>
>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you to say
>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but I'll
>> take it.
>>
>
> The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.

Yes, but just saying that doesn't actually specify the representation.

>
>>>>>>>> Now actually write out, in full, a TM that meets your
>>>>>>>> specification.
>>
>>> I have already fully specified E,
>>> Do you think that I can't possibly code it correctly?
>>
>> I don't know.  The point of the exercises is to get a deeper
>> understanding of what TMs are.  Writing a few is essential.
>>
>
> I might write E. To simply write E might not take very long.
> Sometimes even compiling source code can take all day.
>
>>>> Shall I just wait a bit longer?  Is there anything you need to ask?
>>>
>>> I have already fully specified E,
>>> Do you think that I can't possibly code it correctly?
>>
>> I don't know.  Can you?
>>
>
>

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