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devel / comp.theory / Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

SubjectAuthor
* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ keyolcott
+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
 `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |+* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    ||`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    || `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    ||  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    ||   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    ||   |  `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    ||   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    | |     `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |     +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |      |   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |       `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |   |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |+- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Jeff Barnett
    |   |        |    |      |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Jeff Barnett
    |   |        |    |      |   |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   | `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |  `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |     `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |       +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |      |   |       |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |      |   |       `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |      |   `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |      `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |       `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |        `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |         `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |          +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |          `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |           `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |            |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Dennis Bush
    |   |        |    |            | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |            | | |`* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | | | +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Python
    |   |        |    |            | | | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            | | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            | +* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse
    |   |        |    |            | |`- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |            | `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Richard Damon
    |   |        |    |            `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |             +- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Malcolm McLean
    |   |        |    |             `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |              `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |               `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    |                `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   |        |    |                 `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        |    `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [olcott
    |   |        `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [André G. Isaak
    |   `* Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [Andy Walker
    `- Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piecBen Bacarisse

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Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<E8OdnQpKTpRCttP_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:10 UTC

On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
>>> posting here?
>>
>> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
>
> That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
>
>> I have
>> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
>> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
>
> Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
> unravelling!
>

You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
attention:

It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<3d6ff0e6-b2ad-4a32-89c4-afab15e9685fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:17 UTC

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:10:14 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >
> >> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >
> >>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
> >>> posting here?
> >>
> >> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
> >
> > That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
> >
> >> I have
> >> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
> >> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
> >
> > Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
> > unravelling!
> >
> You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
> attention:
>
> It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
> never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
> Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.

But how can we verify that the input was correctly simulated? Let's look at a specific example.

Given an embedded_H that aborts its simulation which we'll call embedded_Ha, is embedded_Ha (and therefore Ha) correct to reject <Ha^><Ha^>?

Now we have Hb, which has the exact same halting criteria as Ha except it defers aborting for k steps. Hb simulates <Ha^><Ha^> and is able to reach the input's final state of <Ha^.qn> while remaining in UTM mode and accepts this input. This tells us that embedded_Ha is not correct to reject <Ha^><Ha^> because it aborted too soon.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:17 UTC

On 4/6/2022 7:06 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-06 17:53, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>>>>>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you to
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but I'll
>>>>>>> take it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.
>>>>>
>>>>> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not
>>>>> going to
>>>>> push the matter.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite string
>>>> transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite string is
>>>> the only data type ever needed.
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing Machines
>>> always work with finite strings.
>>>
>>> However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative. After
>>> all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted symbols.
>>> Unless you describe how information is actually encoded in those
>>> finite strings, you're not conveying anything useful.
>>>
>>> That needs to be part of the specification of any Turing Machine:
>>> given the problem I wish to solve, how do I encode the information
>>> required to solve it in a way such that it can be passed to the
>>> Turing Machine?
>>>
>>
>> We encode it as a stack of pizzas fifty feet high of course, because
>> we know that pizzas (not finite strings) are an elemental data type of
>> TMs.
>
> As usual, you are going to great lengths to entirely miss the point.
>
> Here is an example of a finite string: "♢♥♣♥♥♢◳". Should an evenness
> decider such as E accept or reject this string? What about '1320'?
>

If it only has strings of binary digits the it must accept or reject.

> Evenness is a property of integers, not strings. Without actually
> specifying how we encode integers as strings, the above question is
> unanswerable.
>

Algorithmically the evenness of integers represeneted as strings is
entirely based on whether its last binary digit is a 0.

> You can't just say 'we encode the input as a finite string'. You need to

When the input is a string of bits there is no encoding at all. If the
input is the complete knowledge of brain surgery then there are many
complex layers of encoding.

> specify which alphabet the string is constructed from and how we
> construct strings to encode the specific information we are interested
> in (which generally is not a string) as a string.
>
> André
>

For E we merely have a space delimited string of bits.
For decimal E we merely have a space delimited string of ASCII digits.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:20 UTC

On 4/6/2022 7:17 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:10:14 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>
>>>>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
>>>>> posting here?
>>>>
>>>> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
>>>
>>> That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
>>>
>>>> I have
>>>> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
>>>> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
>>>
>>> Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
>>> unravelling!
>>>
>> You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
>> attention:
>>
>> It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
>> never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
>> Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.
>
> But how can we verify that the input was correctly simulated?

The exection trace that is specified by its TM description.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<11dcf817-f764-46b1-893b-a05636032622n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: Dennis Bush - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:24 UTC

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:20:16 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 7:17 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:10:14 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
> >>>>> posting here?
> >>>>
> >>>> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
> >>>
> >>> That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
> >>>
> >>>> I have
> >>>> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
> >>>> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
> >>>
> >>> Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
> >>> unravelling!
> >>>
> >> You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
> >> attention:
> >>
> >> It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
> >> never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
> >> Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.
> >
> > But how can we verify that the input was correctly simulated?
> The exection trace that is specified by its TM description.

But another halt decider simulates the same input to completion. So the claim that the input "can never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all" is false:

Given an embedded_H that aborts its simulation which we'll call embedded_Ha, is embedded_Ha (and therefore Ha) correct to reject <Ha^><Ha^>?

Now we have Hb, which has the exact same halting criteria as Ha except it defers aborting for k steps. Hb simulates <Ha^><Ha^> and is able to reach the input's final state of <Ha^.qn> while remaining in UTM mode and accepts this input. This tells us that embedded_Ha is not correct to reject <Ha^><Ha^> because it aborted too soon.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2lbfp$l03$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
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 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:32 UTC

On 2022-04-06 18:17, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 7:06 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-06 17:53, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>>>>>>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you
>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but
>>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>> take it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of symbols.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not
>>>>>> going to
>>>>>> push the matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite string
>>>>> transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite string is
>>>>> the only data type ever needed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing
>>>> Machines always work with finite strings.
>>>>
>>>> However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative. After
>>>> all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted symbols.
>>>> Unless you describe how information is actually encoded in those
>>>> finite strings, you're not conveying anything useful.
>>>>
>>>> That needs to be part of the specification of any Turing Machine:
>>>> given the problem I wish to solve, how do I encode the information
>>>> required to solve it in a way such that it can be passed to the
>>>> Turing Machine?
>>>>
>>>
>>> We encode it as a stack of pizzas fifty feet high of course, because
>>> we know that pizzas (not finite strings) are an elemental data type
>>> of TMs.
>>
>> As usual, you are going to great lengths to entirely miss the point.
>>
>> Here is an example of a finite string: "♢♥♣♥♥♢◳". Should an evenness
>> decider such as E accept or reject this string? What about '1320'?
>>
>
> If it only has strings of binary digits the it must accept or reject.

That wasn't my question. My question was whether it should accept or
reject the above two strings.

>> Evenness is a property of integers, not strings. Without actually
>> specifying how we encode integers as strings, the above question is
>> unanswerable.
>>
>
> Algorithmically the evenness of integers represeneted as strings is
> entirely based on whether its last binary digit is a 0.

That's only true if you have included as part of your specification that
E takes strings over the alphabet {0, 1, ␣} and that integers are
encoded as positional binary digits where the symbol '0' has a value of
zero and the symbol '1' has a value of one and where digits are ordered
from most significant to least significant and terminated with a "␣".

Obviously, one doesn't usually go into that much detail, but the point I
am trying to make is that you can't just say 'the input is encoded as a
finite string'. You need to explain exactly *how* it is encoded as a string.

>> You can't just say 'we encode the input as a finite string'. You need to
>
> When the input is a string of bits there is no encoding at all. If the

Nonsense. If a string of bits has 'no encoding at all' then you should
be able to tell me unambiguously what the following string of bits means.

"1110010011000001"

> input is the complete knowledge of brain surgery then there are many
> complex layers of encoding.
>
>> specify which alphabet the string is constructed from and how we
>> construct strings to encode the specific information we are interested
>> in (which generally is not a string) as a string.
>>
>> André
>>
>
> For E we merely have a space delimited string of bits.
> For decimal E we merely have a space delimited string of ASCII digits.

Right, and that needs to be included as part of the specification of the
problem. That's the point I'm trying to get you to see. Without that
information there is no way to interpret 'finite string'. That's why Ben
thought your specification of E was too vague; you hadn't done this.

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

<87pmltenpd.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2022 01:34:06 +0100
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:34 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/6/2022 4:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>>>>
>>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the
>>>>> universe disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>>>>
>>>> Good to see that you are still asserting that false is the correct
>>>> result from a halt decider for at least one halting computation.
>>>
>>> If the input to the halt decider specifies a non-halting sequence of
>>> configurations then any damn thing anywhere else is totally
>>> irrelevant.
>> If P(P) halts, H(P,P) should be true.
>
> Like I said any damn thing else is actually 100% perfectly totally
> irrelevant.

Yes! The only thing that matters is whether the "input", (P,P),
specifies a halting computation or not.

>> The "input" to H is two
>> parameters that specify the halting computation P(P).
>
> A halting computation that cannot possibly reach its own final state
> under any condition what-so-ever?

Either P(P) halts or it does not. Did you tell a fib when you said it
does? Since it halts, H(P,P) == false is wrong.

> The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its own final state under
> any condition what-so-ever, thus if God and all his angels and every
> being great and small said that the input to H specifies a halting
> computation they would all be liars.

You told that us P(P) halts. Until you retract that, I will take it to
be true. You also told us that H(P,P) == false. Do you need to correct
one or other of these statements?

>> So here's another
>> question you can't answer: what two arguments must be passed to H for H
>> to tell us whether P(P) halts or not?

Duck, dive and dodge, but don't answer whatever you do!

--
Ben.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:35 UTC

On 4/6/2022 7:24 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:20:16 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 7:17 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:10:14 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
>>>>>>> posting here?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have
>>>>>> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
>>>>>> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
>>>>> unravelling!
>>>>>
>>>> You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
>>>> attention:
>>>>
>>>> It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
>>>> never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
>>>> Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.
>>>
>>> But how can we verify that the input was correctly simulated?
>> The exection trace that is specified by its TM description.
>
> But another halt decider

Nothing else in the universe can possibly change this.
If X is a dog then anyone disagreeing is simply wrong.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:42 UTC

On 4/6/2022 7:32 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-06 18:17, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 7:06 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-06 17:53, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>>>>>>>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you
>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P), but
>>>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>>> take it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of
>>>>>>>> symbols.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> push the matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite string
>>>>>> transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite string is
>>>>>> the only data type ever needed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing
>>>>> Machines always work with finite strings.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative.
>>>>> After all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted
>>>>> symbols. Unless you describe how information is actually encoded in
>>>>> those finite strings, you're not conveying anything useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> That needs to be part of the specification of any Turing Machine:
>>>>> given the problem I wish to solve, how do I encode the information
>>>>> required to solve it in a way such that it can be passed to the
>>>>> Turing Machine?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We encode it as a stack of pizzas fifty feet high of course, because
>>>> we know that pizzas (not finite strings) are an elemental data type
>>>> of TMs.
>>>
>>> As usual, you are going to great lengths to entirely miss the point.
>>>
>>> Here is an example of a finite string: "♢♥♣♥♥♢◳". Should an evenness
>>> decider such as E accept or reject this string? What about '1320'?
>>>
>>
>> If it only has strings of binary digits the it must accept or reject.
>
> That wasn't my question. My question was whether it should accept or
> reject the above two strings.
>

They can't possibly exist in a system that only has strings of binary
digits.

>>> Evenness is a property of integers, not strings. Without actually
>>> specifying how we encode integers as strings, the above question is
>>> unanswerable.
>>>
>>
>> Algorithmically the evenness of integers represeneted as strings is
>> entirely based on whether its last binary digit is a 0.
>
> That's only true if you have included as part of your specification that
> E takes strings over the alphabet {0, 1, ␣} and that integers are
> encoded as positional binary digits where the symbol '0' has a value of
> zero and the symbol '1' has a value of one and where digits are ordered
> from most significant to least significant and terminated with a "␣".
>
> Obviously, one doesn't usually go into that much detail, but the point I
> am trying to make is that you can't just say 'the input is encoded as a
> finite string'. You need to explain exactly *how* it is encoded as a
> string.
>

I would not repeat any common knowledge.

>>> You can't just say 'we encode the input as a finite string'. You need to
>>
>> When the input is a string of bits there is no encoding at all. If the
>
> Nonsense. If a string of bits has 'no encoding at all' then you should
> be able to tell me unambiguously what the following string of bits means.
>
> "1110010011000001"
>

The algorithm does that.

>> input is the complete knowledge of brain surgery then there are many
>> complex layers of encoding.
>>
>>> specify which alphabet the string is constructed from and how we
>>> construct strings to encode the specific information we are
>>> interested in (which generally is not a string) as a string.
>>>
>>> André
>>>
>>
>> For E we merely have a space delimited string of bits.
>> For decimal E we merely have a space delimited string of ASCII digits.
>
> Right, and that needs to be included as part of the specification of the
> problem.

Not if the machine in question inherently handles strings space
delimited of binary digits.

> That's the point I'm trying to get you to see. Without that
> information there is no way to interpret 'finite string'. That's why Ben
> thought your specification of E was too vague; you hadn't done this.
>
> André
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:44 UTC

On 4/6/2022 7:34 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/6/2022 4:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>>>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>>>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the
>>>>>> universe disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to see that you are still asserting that false is the correct
>>>>> result from a halt decider for at least one halting computation.
>>>>
>>>> If the input to the halt decider specifies a non-halting sequence of
>>>> configurations then any damn thing anywhere else is totally
>>>> irrelevant.
>>> If P(P) halts, H(P,P) should be true.
>>
>> Like I said any damn thing else is actually 100% perfectly totally
>> irrelevant.
>
> Yes! The only thing that matters is whether the "input", (P,P),
> specifies a halting computation or not.
>
>>> The "input" to H is two
>>> parameters that specify the halting computation P(P).
>>
>> A halting computation that cannot possibly reach its own final state
>> under any condition what-so-ever?
>
> Either P(P) halts or it does not. Did you tell a fib when you said it
> does? Since it halts, H(P,P) == false is wrong.
>

The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state
The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly every reach its own final state

>> The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its own final state under
>> any condition what-so-ever, thus if God and all his angels and every
>> being great and small said that the input to H specifies a halting
>> computation they would all be liars.
>
> You told that us P(P) halts. Until you retract that, I will take it to
> be true. You also told us that H(P,P) == false. Do you need to correct
> one or other of these statements?
>
>>> So here's another
>>> question you can't answer: what two arguments must be passed to H for H
>>> to tell us whether P(P) halts or not?
>
> Duck, dive and dodge, but don't answer whatever you do!
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

<t2lchk$69m$1@dont-email.me>

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 18:50:59 -0600
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 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 00:50 UTC

On 2022-04-06 18:42, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 7:32 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-06 18:17, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 7:06 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-06 17:53, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-04-06 09:13, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 7:01 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2022 10:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy  if S represents an even number
>>>>>>>>>>> E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn  otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah!  That's a good forst stab at it.  I'd have preferred you
>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>> what representations are to be considered (as I did for P),
>>>>>>>>>> but I'll
>>>>>>>>>> take it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The representation is always going to be a finite string of
>>>>>>>>> symbols.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Specifications should really be tighter than that, but I'm not
>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>> push the matter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since the sum total of human conceptual knowledge is finite
>>>>>>> string transformation rules applied to finite strings a finite
>>>>>>> string is the only data type ever needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't speak about "human conceptual knowledge", but Turing
>>>>>> Machines always work with finite strings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, 'finite string' on its own is entirely uninformative.
>>>>>> After all, a finite string is simply a sequence of uninterpreted
>>>>>> symbols. Unless you describe how information is actually encoded
>>>>>> in those finite strings, you're not conveying anything useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That needs to be part of the specification of any Turing Machine:
>>>>>> given the problem I wish to solve, how do I encode the information
>>>>>> required to solve it in a way such that it can be passed to the
>>>>>> Turing Machine?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We encode it as a stack of pizzas fifty feet high of course,
>>>>> because we know that pizzas (not finite strings) are an elemental
>>>>> data type of TMs.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, you are going to great lengths to entirely miss the point.
>>>>
>>>> Here is an example of a finite string: "♢♥♣♥♥♢◳". Should an evenness
>>>> decider such as E accept or reject this string? What about '1320'?
>>>>
>>>
>>> If it only has strings of binary digits the it must accept or reject.
>>
>> That wasn't my question. My question was whether it should accept or
>> reject the above two strings.
>>
>
> They can't possibly exist in a system that only has strings of binary
> digits.
>
>>>> Evenness is a property of integers, not strings. Without actually
>>>> specifying how we encode integers as strings, the above question is
>>>> unanswerable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Algorithmically the evenness of integers represeneted as strings is
>>> entirely based on whether its last binary digit is a 0.
>>
>> That's only true if you have included as part of your specification
>> that E takes strings over the alphabet {0, 1, ␣} and that integers are
>> encoded as positional binary digits where the symbol '0' has a value
>> of zero and the symbol '1' has a value of one and where digits are
>> ordered from most significant to least significant and terminated with
>> a "␣".
>>
>> Obviously, one doesn't usually go into that much detail, but the point
>> I am trying to make is that you can't just say 'the input is encoded
>> as a finite string'. You need to explain exactly *how* it is encoded
>> as a string.
>>
>
> I would not repeat any common knowledge.

Why would it be common knowledge that your evenness decider takes
integers encoded as binary strings? (as opposed to unary or decimal or
whatever?)

>>>> You can't just say 'we encode the input as a finite string'. You
>>>> need to
>>>
>>> When the input is a string of bits there is no encoding at all. If the
>>
>> Nonsense. If a string of bits has 'no encoding at all' then you should
>> be able to tell me unambiguously what the following string of bits means.
>>
>> "1110010011000001"
>>
>
> The algorithm does that.

That's backwards. You design an algorithm which assumes a certain
encoding. That means the encoding must be developed before the algorithm.

>>> input is the complete knowledge of brain surgery then there are many
>>> complex layers of encoding.
>>>
>>>> specify which alphabet the string is constructed from and how we
>>>> construct strings to encode the specific information we are
>>>> interested in (which generally is not a string) as a string.
>>>>
>>>> André
>>>>
>>>
>>> For E we merely have a space delimited string of bits.
>>> For decimal E we merely have a space delimited string of ASCII digits.
>>
>> Right, and that needs to be included as part of the specification of
>> the problem.
>
> Not if the machine in question inherently handles strings space
> delimited of binary digits.

But the definition of Turing Machine *doesn't* specify any of the above.
That's the point. You need to include that information in your
specification of the problem.

But, now that we've got that out of the way, here's a simple question
for you: If you want your evenness decider to decide whether seven is
even, which string would you pass to it? [yes, I know this is trivially
obvious, just humour me]

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(11) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ back door ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:01 UTC

On 4/6/2022 7:34 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 4/6/2022 6:35 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 4/6/2022 4:36 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 9:19 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> As for the main mistake, I know enough about cranks to aim for only one
>>>>>>> of two things: can they be persuaded to say enough to show others that
>>>>>>> they are wrong (for example PO admission that H(P,P) == false is correct
>>>>>>> despite the fact that P(P) halts),
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it is the case that the simulated input to H cannot possibly reach
>>>>>> its own final state under any condition what-so-ever then H correctly
>>>>>> maps this finite string input to its reject state and nothing in the
>>>>>> universe can correctly contradict that H is correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have a white dog in your living room and everyone in the
>>>>>> universe disagrees, you still have a white dog in your living room.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to see that you are still asserting that false is the correct
>>>>> result from a halt decider for at least one halting computation.
>>>>
>>>> If the input to the halt decider specifies a non-halting sequence of
>>>> configurations then any damn thing anywhere else is totally
>>>> irrelevant.
>>> If P(P) halts, H(P,P) should be true.
>>
>> Like I said any damn thing else is actually 100% perfectly totally
>> irrelevant.
>
> Yes! The only thing that matters is whether the "input", (P,P),
> specifies a halting computation or not.
>
>>> The "input" to H is two
>>> parameters that specify the halting computation P(P).
>>
>> A halting computation that cannot possibly reach its own final state
>> under any condition what-so-ever?
>
> Either P(P) halts or it does not. Did you tell a fib when you said it
> does? Since it halts, H(P,P) == false is wrong.
>
>> The input to H(P,P) cannot possibly reach its own final state under
>> any condition what-so-ever, thus if God and all his angels and every
>> being great and small said that the input to H specifies a halting
>> computation they would all be liars.
>
> You told that us P(P) halts. Until you retract that, I will take it to
> be true. You also told us that H(P,P) == false. Do you need to correct
> one or other of these statements?
>

As long as the input to H(P,P) never reaches its final state under any
condition what-so-ever then no matter what P(P) does H was still correct
because P(P) is not an input and H is only accountable for getting its
inputs correctly.

If a guard is assigned to watch the front door and no one comes in the
front door and thousands of people come in the back door the guard is
correct to say that no one came in the front door.

The input to H is its front door that it must guard. What P(P) does when
it is not an input is all back door stuff and none of the business of
any decider.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:09 UTC

On 4/6/22 2:56 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>>>    I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>> specifications.
>>>
>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>
>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know this
> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>

Nope, YOU need to get to the point where you understand that you don't
know jack shit about how Turing Machines actually work,

You ignorance shouts out so loudly everyone else knows it clearly,

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:10 UTC

On 4/6/2022 7:50 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>
> But, now that we've got that out of the way, here's a simple question
> for you: If you want your evenness decider to decide whether seven is
> even, which string would you pass to it? [yes, I know this is trivially
> obvious, just humour me]
>
> André

111[]

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:11 UTC

On 4/6/22 3:06 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 1:59 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>>>> specifications.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>>> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know this
>>> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>>
>> Bold words from someone who can't write what's effectively a "hello
>> world" TM.
>
> It is not the tedious details about writing a TM that are most important.
>
> It is exactly how all of the fundamental concepts of the theory of
> computation fit together relative to TM's that is most crucial.
>
> If you get the first part perfectly and in the second part you have at
> least one large error then you know enormously less about TM's than
> someone that only gets the second part correctly.
>

No, your REFUSAL to do the simple task demonstrates your ignorance.

It isn't that its is beneath you, it is that is ABOVE you.

You THINK you know a lot about them but it is clear that you think a
DOGWOOD tree is a type of Canine because it has bark.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:14 UTC

On 4/6/22 5:02 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 3:55 PM, Python wrote:
>> Crank Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 1:59 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 2:56:33 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/6/2022 1:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought you wanted to learn how TMs are
>>>>>>>> specified so you had the knowledge to read and understand Linz's
>>>>>>>> specifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not at all. I already understand this better than you do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, let's call it a day then.
>>>>> We have to get to the point where you understand that I aleady know
>>>>> this
>>>>> better than you so I am willing to proceed with the E TM.
>>>>
>>>> Bold words from someone who can't write what's effectively a "hello
>>>> world" TM.
>>>
>>> It is not the tedious details about writing a TM that are most
>>> important.
>>
>> It is not tedious, asshole, it is the basics.
>>
>> You are braging about this for 17 years and you end up to be unable to
>> write down a single TM for the simpliest case. This is pathetic.
>>
>> I was playing with TM when I was 14 years old, Peter, spending the
>> whole summer defining a lot of them to perform arithmetic, solving
>> equations, etc. then I studied CS for years and I spotted how TMs are
>> important. YOU ARE A COMPLETE FAILURE AND A HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING,
>> we won't mourn.
>>
>>
>
> Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version
> Judge not, that ye be not judged.
>
> For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what
> measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
>
>

And think about how you have judged the members of the group.

Maybe God will ask you one of the questions that have been put to you,
like what string SHOULD you be able to give to ask H about H^ applied to
<H^>.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:16 UTC

On 4/6/22 11:18 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 10:01 AM, Andy Walker wrote:
>> On 06/04/2022 15:29, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> I think it might relate to one of my pet peeves about cranks -- the
>>> almost total lack of intellectual curiosity.  When supervising PhD
>>> students, one often has to keep that rained-in (after the first year) or
>>> they would spend all of their time learning and investigating issues
>>> related to their thesis topic, rather than focusing on that one thing.
>>
>>      I don't think that's confined to, or even correlated with,
>> crankiness.  One of the most frustrating things as an educator is
>> to have bright students who do whatever you ask them to do, and
>> then say "OK, I've done that" instead of asking how it links in
>> with other stuff.  Or, equivalently, sitting in lectures with their
>> arms literally or metaphorically crossed, daring you to teach them
>> something.  The only curiosity they show is to ask "Why are we doing
>> this?".  They think that maths [in particular -- I don't know how
>> far this carries over into other subjects] is simply a matter of
>> re-arranging symbols until the High Priest is satisfied.  Luckily,
>> a large majority of our students, at all levels and all abilities,
>> weren't like that, and were a joy to teach.
>>
>
> The other key about "cranks" is that people are so sure that they must
> be wrong that the never pay enough attention to see that they are
> correct because minds have already been made up and closed.
>
> The actual execution trace of the simulated input: ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ to embedded_H
> conclusively proves that it would never reach its own final state under
> any condition what-so-ever thus must be rejected by embedded_H.
>

Nope, because the CORRECT simulation of <H^> <H^> shows that it does halt.

You just like using wrong definitions, which shows your ignorance,
because you even sometimes write to correct one and then ignore it.

FAIL.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
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 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:17 UTC

On 2022-04-06 19:10, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 7:50 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>
>> But, now that we've got that out of the way, here's a simple question
>> for you: If you want your evenness decider to decide whether seven is
>> even, which string would you pass to it? [yes, I know this is
>> trivially obvious, just humour me]
>>
>> André
>
> 111[]

I'm assuming that you're using [] to indicate a blank.

Presumably your E would *reject* this string since seven is an odd
number rather than an even one.

But notice that in the above case your Turing Machine is rejecting a
finite string "111␣" based on the fact that the *integer* seven, which
is neither an input nor a finite string, is not even.

So your decider is mapping from a finite string (its input) to
reject/accept based on something which is a "non-input non-finite
string" (to use an expression you've often used).

How is that acceptable given that you've claimed Turing Machines can't
do this?

André

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:18 UTC

On 4/6/22 1:04 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 11:54 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>> On 06/04/2022 15:29, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> It's obvious that PO has never specified a Turing machine, or else
>>>> he would
>>>> just dash off a machine to decide the even numbers.
>>>> But he knows what a Turing machine is, and he understands the quintuple
>>>> notation. So I think that with a bit of effort, he's capable of
>>>> writing such a machine.
>>>
>>> You'd think so.  I wonder what the problem is.  It can't be fear of
>>> getting it wrong because he can exhaustively test it using things like:
>>
>> I think he simply doesn't see the point in wasting his time on it.
>>
>> Is PO cooperating in this learning exercise because he understands
>> that he doesn't know enough about TMs to make arguments about them?
>> Or that he is intellectually curious about them and wants to
>> understand the fundamentals better?
>>
>> I don't think anything like that applies - PO believes that his claims
>> are correct, and that other people don't agree /because of the
>> language he is using/ to express the claims.  He believes that by
>> cooperating with you, he might learn the Right Way to express his
>> claims, then you and everybody else will understand him and agree he
>> is correct.  I.e. he wants to "learn the right words to say" rather
>> than "learn the fundamental concepts involved".
>>
>> PO probably realises that constructing an actual TM will not give him
>> any "handy new words" that will convince anyone that his claims are
>> correct - and he's quite right in that respect.  So why waste time on
>> it?  (Purely from /his/ perspective.)
>
> Yes that is exactly correct. My Version(11) parallel dialogue focuses on
> "the right words" and nothing else.
>

Except there is no such thing as 'right words' to make incorrect
concepts correct.

FAIL.

If you don't understand the actual basics, you can't understand how to
form the better words.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:25 UTC

On 4/6/22 8:10 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>>>> ...  Your hobby seems to be posting here.  Are you having fun
>>>> posting here?
>>>
>>> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
>>
>> That's fine.  I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
>>
>>> I have
>>> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
>>> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
>>
>> Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
>> unravelling!
>>
>
> You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
> attention:
>
> It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
> never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
> Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.
>

Wrong, the correct simulation of the input very much CAN reach its final
state. It is just embedded_H (which does NOT do a correct simulation if
it answer Qn) doesn't get there.

You have such a misunderstanding of the meaning of the words that you
just don't understand what you are doing.

And, you are igoring someone taking time to try to teach you something
you really need to know to make sense of what you are trying to say, but
you refuse to learn.

This just shows that you PREFER to be ignorant.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:25 UTC

On 4/6/2022 8:17 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
> On 2022-04-06 19:10, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 7:50 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>
>>> But, now that we've got that out of the way, here's a simple question
>>> for you: If you want your evenness decider to decide whether seven is
>>> even, which string would you pass to it? [yes, I know this is
>>> trivially obvious, just humour me]
>>>
>>> André
>>
>> 111[]
>
> I'm assuming that you're using [] to indicate a blank.
>
> Presumably your E would *reject* this string since seven is an odd
> number rather than an even one.
>
> But notice that in the above case your Turing Machine is rejecting a
> finite string "111␣" based on the fact that the *integer* seven, which
> is neither an input nor a finite string, is not even.
>
> So your decider is mapping from a finite string (its input) to
> reject/accept based on something which is a "non-input non-finite
> string" (to use an expression you've often used).
>

That seems totally incoherent.

The TM maps its input finite string to its reject state based on a
property of this finite string.

> How is that acceptable given that you've claimed Turing Machines can't
> do this?
>
> André
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:27 UTC

On 4/6/22 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 7:17 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:10:14 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
>>>>>> posting here?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
>>>>
>>>> That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
>>>>
>>>>> I have
>>>>> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
>>>>> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
>>>>
>>>> Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
>>>> unravelling!
>>>>
>>> You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
>>> attention:
>>>
>>> It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
>>> never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
>>> Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.
>>
>> But how can we verify that the input was correctly simulated?
>
> The exection trace that is specified by its TM description.
>

Right, the input <H^> <H^> represents the TM H^ applied to <H^> whose
execution trace we HAVE examined, and determines that it does halt if
embedded_H answers Qn, so that CAN'T be the correct answer.

FAIL.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:30 UTC

On 4/6/22 8:35 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 7:24 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:20:16 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 7:17 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 8:10:14 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/6/2022 6:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ... Your hobby seems to be posting here. Are you having fun
>>>>>>>> posting here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am enjoying posting here because progress continues to occur.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's fine. I'd like to think I am helping to entertain you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>> my whole proof boiled down to the correct understanding of a single
>>>>>>> (very difficult to understand) sentence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except for the two questions you can't answer without it all
>>>>>> unravelling!
>>>>>>
>>>>> You merely continue to greatly disrespectfully refuse to pay enough
>>>>> attention:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the case that the correctly simulated input to embedded_H can
>>>>> never possibly reach its own final state under any condition at all.
>>>>> Therefore embedded_H is necessarily correct to reject its input.
>>>>
>>>> But how can we verify that the input was correctly simulated?
>>> The exection trace that is specified by its TM description.
>>
>> But another halt decider
>
>
> Nothing else in the universe can possibly change this.
> If X is a dog then anyone disagreeing is simply wrong.
>

Except since you can't actually SHOW that X is a dog (and it is only YOU
how thinks it is) then they aren't wrong, just as only YOU think
embedded_H was correct, and it is demonstratably WRONG, so YOU must be
the one who is wrong.

H^ applied to <H^> ALWAYS HALTS if H applied to <H^> <H^> -> Qn, thus BY
DEFINITION H doing that is WRONG, and no matter WHAT you say about that.
due to the principle you just quoted, YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG.

FAIL.

The CLAIM game works both ways, only the Truth here can actually be
proven, while your claims are just in your own mind.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ][ H is correct ]

<1br3K.521225$mF2.134779@fx11.iad>

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:32 UTC

On 4/6/22 7:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>
> Like I said any damn thing else is actually 100% perfectly totally
> irrelevant.

No, anything YOU say is 100% perfectly totally irrelevent because you
have absolutely ZERO basic if fact to make any of your claims since you
start from WRONG definitions.

Your inability to see that just shows how ignorant you are of the field,
and of logic in general.

FAIL.

Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [ key missing piece in dialogue ]

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From: agis...@gm.invalid (André G. Isaak)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Refuting the Peter Linz Halting Problem Proof --- Version(10) [
key missing piece in dialogue ]
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 19:41:04 -0600
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 by: André G. Isaak - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 01:41 UTC

On 2022-04-06 19:25, olcott wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 8:17 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>> On 2022-04-06 19:10, olcott wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2022 7:50 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But, now that we've got that out of the way, here's a simple
>>>> question for you: If you want your evenness decider to decide
>>>> whether seven is even, which string would you pass to it? [yes, I
>>>> know this is trivially obvious, just humour me]
>>>>
>>>> André
>>>
>>> 111[]
>>
>> I'm assuming that you're using [] to indicate a blank.
>>
>> Presumably your E would *reject* this string since seven is an odd
>> number rather than an even one.
>>
>> But notice that in the above case your Turing Machine is rejecting a
>> finite string "111␣" based on the fact that the *integer* seven, which
>> is neither an input nor a finite string, is not even.
>>
>> So your decider is mapping from a finite string (its input) to
>> reject/accept based on something which is a "non-input non-finite
>> string" (to use an expression you've often used).
>>
>
> That seems totally incoherent.
>
> The TM maps its input finite string to its reject state based on a
> property of this finite string.

But 'evenness' is not a property of strings; it is a property of
numbers, and strings are not numbers.

Your decider bases its decision on a property of the string (is the
final digit 0?), but that property only corresponds to evenness by
virtue of the encoding you have chosen.

A decider which uses a unary representation (which would be slightly
simpler than your binary one) couldn't just look at a single digit. Nor
could one that used trinary representation (which would be only slightly
more complex than your binary one).

What makes all three of these valid evenness deciders is that they
conform to the specification of an evenness decider:

E.q0 S ⊦* E.qy if the *number* represented by the string S is even
E.q0 S ⊦* E.qn otherwise.

Yes, the TM maps a finite string to an accept/reject state, but this
mapping is based on the property of the *number* which that string
encodes. That number is not an input, but because it can be encoded as a
string we can still legitimately expect a Turing Machine to answer
questions about that number.

Talking about a finite string as being even or odd is completely
meaningless. Only numbers can be even or odd. Yet there is no problem in
constructing such a decider.

Similarly, there is no problem creating a TM which answers questions
about other Turing Machines even though TMs take only strings and not
Turing Machines as their input. As long as it is possible to encode a
Turing Machine as a string (which it is), a decider can answer questions
about it.

André

--
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