In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 25 Oct 2021 11:21:01 +0200, "Carlos
E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 25/10/2021 06.45, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 24.10.21 um 19:22 schrieb Ken Blake:
>>> As far as I'm concerned,
>>>
>>> A desktop can do much more serious stuff than
>>>
>>> a laptop, which can do more serious stuff than
>>>
>>> a tablet, which can do more serious stuff than
>>>
>>> a smart phone.
>>
>> I tend to agree except I see no difference between a laptop and a
>> desktop. Au contraire because the serious stuff can be done everywhere
>> with a laptop which is certainly not possible with a desktop. All the
>> components of a desktop can be added to a laptop if needed.
>>
>
>No, I feel cramped on my laptop. Smaller keyboard, mouse, screen...

Are there any laptops with a full size keyboard? I can't tell by
looking.

But worse than the size is that the keytops are all flat. I can't tell
where my fingers are supposed to be. Just so the lid can shut I
presume. I'd rather have the whole thing be a millimeter thicker.

I looked for a laptop with indented keys once, but didn't find anything.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Ken Blake" <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote in message
> news:itntu7Fu09eU2@mid.individual.net...
> > On 10/24/2021 9:45 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> >> Am 24.10.21 um 19:22 schrieb Ken Blake:
> >>> As far as I'm concerned,
> >>>
> >>> A desktop can do much more serious stuff than
> >>>
> >>> a laptop, which can do more serious stuff than
> >>>
> >>> a tablet, which can do more serious stuff than
> >>>
> >>> a smart phone.
> >>
> >> I tend to agree except I see no difference between a laptop and a
> >> desktop.
> >
> >
> > Many differences. I have to go out now, so I can't list them, but I'll try
> > to remember to do it later.
>
> I would say that the differences between a desktop and a laptop are fairly
> small these days. Probably the only significant ones are:
>
> - inability to have more than one internal HDD (but USB HDDs can be plugged
> in temporarily)
>
> - smaller keys on keyboard, possibly with no separate numeric keypad, and
> maybe with lesser-used keys (eg \ and | key) in unusual positions; my laptop
> cannot (AFAIK) reproduce accented/typographical characters using Alt+0145
> etc because there is no separate numeric keypad

FWIW, the alpha-part of the keyboard of my 15.6" (you mention 15")
laptop is only one cm less wide than the 'full-size' seperate keyboard
(don't ask) which we just bought and it does have a seperate numeric
keypad. So for all intents and purposes, this laptop keyboard is the
same size as a seperate keyboard.

> - the smaller screen (15" rather than 25") means that it is necessary to
> work at 125% rather than 100% text size for text to be legible, even
> allowing for a laptop screen generally being a bit closer to you than a
> desktop screen
>
> But for most purposes, they are interchangeable. My laptop is a lot faster
> than my desktop due to: SSD rather than HDD; faster (much newer) CPU; 16 GB
> rather than 8 GB RAM.

Another difference is repairability, both by the user/owner and
professional technician. Because they're smaller and more integrated,
laptops are more difficult to repair, especially by the user. When
buying a laptop, a user can not take for granted that (s)he can replace
the HDD/SDD, fan or even the battery without too much difficulty. For
example the HDD of my wife's laptop can be accessed from the bottom of
the laptop, by unscrewing a small panel. For my laptop, nearly the whole
laptop needs to be disassembled, with ten and tens of screws, top cover,
keyboard, cables, other boards, etc., etc.. Luckily both still have
(easily) removable batteries, which is becoming less common.

OTOH, 'desktop' is also an ambiguous term as it might mean different
things to different people. To start with, what many/most people call
'desktop's aren't desktops, but 'tower's. And even those are in many
form factors. And then there are all kinds of 'Mini-PC's with many
subcategories, which are basically laptop-like devices, but without
display/keyboard/touchpad/battery. So some of these 'desktop's are also
not upgradeable/ expandable and also not user-repairable.

[...]

On 10/25/2021 2:21 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> I feel cramped on my laptop.

> Smaller keyboard,

No big deal for us 2 finger guys.

> mouse,

Mine has a touch screen AND a touchpad. I need a mouse too? Well yes, I
admit I do use a trackball when sitting in my big easy recliner, like
now, using this laptop on, of all things, my lap.

> screen

This 11" LT has a 60" screen. Well, it looks like a 60" screen sitting
on a pillow a foot in front of my reading glasses.

Bottom line as always, YMMV... ;)

Am 25.10.21 um 16:39 schrieb Ken Blake:
> On 10/24/2021 5:49 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 10:22 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On 10/23/2021 11:27 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> Am 24.10.21 um 05:30 schrieb The Real Bev:
>>>>> Using google maps for city streets, major highways etc. is fine, but
>>>>> using it for anything else on a phone is less than optimum. I don't
>>>>> understand how people can get along without desktops...
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't agree more!
>>>
>>> I disagree with "using it for anything else on a phone is less than
>>> optimum." As a single example, I read Kindle books on my phone, and
>>> especially since I often read in bed or while waiting in a doctors
>>> office, using a desktop for that would be very impractical.
>>>
>>> However I largely agree with "I don't understand how people can get
>>> along without desktops," although I think it's something of an
>>> overstatement. I think that for the great majority of people, a desktop
>>> is a much better choice than a laptop, but I know many people who get
>>> along fine with a laptop.
>>
>> Perhaps it's different for people with tiny monkey fingers are really
>> good hand-eye coordination, but I find any sort of "typing" of more than
>> a few words is difficult and highly error-prone.
>
>
> Same for me, but there *are* some people who get along fine with a laptop.
>
>
>
>> The speech recognition
>> is really good, though.
>>
>>>> To do serious stuff, desktop or laptop computers are the devices of
>>>> choice. Even tablets are not satifactory.
>>
>> Any serious writing, like here, is impossible. I didn't even put a
>> newsreader on my phone, there's no point in reading if I can't write
>> more than +1 or equivalent :-(
>
>
> Some for me. I'm terrible typing on a phone's tiny keyboard--even wose
> than on a laptop.

My 15" MacBook Pro has a keyboard as big and as easy to use like any
desktop. Since 2006 I only use laptops for private things. Sometimes
several hours per day.

Even my 13" Linux-Dell is as good as any desktop.

In the office I used double screens and a Bloomberg-keyboard. No
advantage over my laptops.

Touch-screen on a laptop? Not really for me. Ways to slow. That greasy
stuff on a screen. Disgusting ...

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On 10/25/2021 9:33 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> Touch-screen on a laptop? Not really for me. Ways to slow. That
> greasy stuff on a screen. Disgusting ...

Not a problem if you wash your hands every week or so...

On 10/25/2021 7:40 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 9:45 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 24.10.21 um 19:22 schrieb Ken Blake:
>>> As far as I'm concerned,
>>>
>>> A desktop can do much more serious stuff than
>>>
>>> a laptop, which can do more serious stuff than
>>>
>>> a tablet, which can do more serious stuff than
>>>
>>> a smart phone.
>>
>> I tend to agree except I see no difference between a laptop and a
>> desktop.
>
>
> Many differences. I have to go out now, so I can't list them, but I'll
> try to remember to do it later.

What's better about a desktop:

Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)

Multiple screens possible

Bigger, better keyboard, with more keys

A mouse or trackball instead of a touchpad

Potentially much bigger drive

Potentially many more drives

Possible CD/DVD drive

More USB Ports

Possibly better speakers, possibly with a woofer

Less expensive

Easily upgradeable

Much easier to repair

Much less liable to being dropped and destroyed

Much less liable to being stolen

Better cooling and less liable to overheating (I once destroyed a hard
drive in a laptop, by setting it down on a table with a tablecloth)

>> Au contraire because the serious stuff can be done everywhere
>> with a laptop which is certainly not possible with a desktop. All the
>> components of a desktop can be added to a laptop if needed.

Yes, some of the things I mention above can be added to a laptop:
monitor, mouse, external drives, etc. But as far as I'm concerned, if
you add multiple things like those to a laptop, the laptop loses ts
portability and what you have is essentially just a desktop with the
case being shaped like a laptop.

I'm not completely against laptops. A laptop is great to take with you
when you travel; I've done it several times. What I'm against is using a
laptop in your home as a substitute for a desktop. I know that many
people do that, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.

I do many fewer computer thing when I travel than I used to, and these
days I can do them all on my smart phone: google maps, e-mail, Kindle,
weather reports, restaurant reservations, etc. So I no longer travel
with a laptop. My phone is much smaller and lighter and therefore easier
to carry. And it meets all my needs.

--
Ken

On 10/25/2021 8:47 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Ken Blake" <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:itntu7Fu09eU2@mid.individual.net...
>> > On 10/24/2021 9:45 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> >> Am 24.10.21 um 19:22 schrieb Ken Blake:
>> >>> As far as I'm concerned,
>> >>>
>> >>> A desktop can do much more serious stuff than
>> >>>
>> >>> a laptop, which can do more serious stuff than
>> >>>
>> >>> a tablet, which can do more serious stuff than
>> >>>
>> >>> a smart phone.
>> >>
>> >> I tend to agree except I see no difference between a laptop and a
>> >> desktop.
>> >
>> >
>> > Many differences. I have to go out now, so I can't list them, but I'll try
>> > to remember to do it later.
>>
>> I would say that the differences between a desktop and a laptop are fairly
>> small these days. Probably the only significant ones are:
>>
>> - inability to have more than one internal HDD (but USB HDDs can be plugged
>> in temporarily)
>>
>> - smaller keys on keyboard, possibly with no separate numeric keypad, and
>> maybe with lesser-used keys (eg \ and | key) in unusual positions; my laptop
>> cannot (AFAIK) reproduce accented/typographical characters using Alt+0145
>> etc because there is no separate numeric keypad
>
> FWIW, the alpha-part of the keyboard of my 15.6" (you mention 15")
> laptop is only one cm less wide than the 'full-size' seperate keyboard
> (don't ask) which we just bought and it does have a seperate numeric
> keypad. So for all intents and purposes, this laptop keyboard is the
> same size as a seperate keyboard.
>
>> - the smaller screen (15" rather than 25") means that it is necessary to
>> work at 125% rather than 100% text size for text to be legible, even
>> allowing for a laptop screen generally being a bit closer to you than a
>> desktop screen
>>
>> But for most purposes, they are interchangeable. My laptop is a lot faster
>> than my desktop due to: SSD rather than HDD; faster (much newer) CPU; 16 GB
>> rather than 8 GB RAM.
>
> Another difference is repairability, both by the user/owner and
> professional technician. Because they're smaller and more integrated,
> laptops are more difficult to repair, especially by the user. When
> buying a laptop, a user can not take for granted that (s)he can replace
> the HDD/SDD, fan or even the battery without too much difficulty. For
> example the HDD of my wife's laptop can be accessed from the bottom of
> the laptop, by unscrewing a small panel. For my laptop, nearly the whole
> laptop needs to be disassembled, with ten and tens of screws, top cover,
> keyboard, cables, other boards, etc., etc.. Luckily both still have
> (easily) removable batteries, which is becoming less common.
>
> OTOH, 'desktop' is also an ambiguous term as it might mean different
> things to different people. To start with, what many/most people call
> 'desktop's aren't desktops, but 'tower's.

Technically, yes, of course that's right. But like many other names of
things, the meaning of the name "desktop" has broadened and changed over
the years. Whether you like the word or not, as far as I'm concerned, a
tower is a kind of desktop.

If you don't like the term "desktop" you can call them something like
"stationary PCs," but the term "desktop" is so well established and so
well understood by almost everybody that I see no reason to change the name.

And by the way, a tower *can* sit on a desk. Years ago I had two or
three towers that I used that way, and my neighbor across the street
still does that.

I got my first PC in 1987. It was a desktop (an IBM XT clone) that sat
on my desk.

My second computer was an IBM AT clone, a few years later. It also sat
on my desktop. I've gotten about ten "desktops" since then, all towers
sitting on the floor.

> And even those are in many
> form factors.

Yes. My current desktop tower is a full tower. It's the biggest tower
I've ever had; maybe even the biggest I've ever seen. It sits on the floor.

> And then there are all kinds of 'Mini-PC's with many
> subcategories, which are basically laptop-like devices, but without
> display/keyboard/touchpad/battery. So some of these 'desktop's are also
> not upgradeable/ expandable and also not user-repairable.
>
> [...]
>

--
Ken

On 10/25/2021 12:08 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

> What's better about a desktop:
>
> Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)

Doesn't show any more than this LT's 13" screen.

> Multiple screens possible

No need. YMMV.

> Bigger, better keyboard, with more keys

No need. YMMV.

> A mouse or trackball instead of a touchpad

Am using a trackball right now with this LT in my easy chair. Try that
with your desktop...

> Potentially much bigger drive

No need. Using less than 50%. YMMV.

> Potentially many more drives

No need but can plug drives in of needed. YMMV.

> Possible CD/DVD drive

Ditto last answer.

> More USB Ports

This LT's got 3 USB-C ports. Don't think I've ever used them all at the
same time. YMMV.

> Possibly better speakers, possibly with a woofer

True. But I use earbuds if needed. Sounds just as good and less
disturbance to nearby innocent parties.

> Less expensive

Perhaps for the same specs. But el cheapo LTs in the stores here start
in the low hundreds.

> Easily upgradeable

So's mine. I just buy a new one when I get the whim. The old one
goes to a grandkid. Win-win.

> Much easier to repair

Probably. Depending what part is broken. But I've never had a laptop
break on its own (knocks on wood). I did have one catch fire once when I
put the wrong screw in the wrong hole...

> Much less liable to being dropped and destroyed

And much less likely to be carried around the house and used in your
favorite easy chair.

> Much less liable to being stolen

Not necessarily. Home burglaries happen...

> A laptop is great to take with you when you travel;

Agreed.

> What I'm against is using a laptop in your home as a substitute for
> a desktop. I know that many people do that, but as far as I'm
> concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.

Foolish?? YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. Etc. Do I make my point?

> I do many fewer computer thing when I travel than I used to, and
> these days I can do them all on my smart phone: google maps, e-mail,
> Kindle, weather reports, restaurant reservations, etc. So I no
> longer travel with a laptop. My phone is much smaller and lighter
> and therefore easier to carry. And it meets all my needs.

You don't carry a laptop on trips?? What a FOOLISH thing to do... ;)

In article <itodmaF2gm9U1@mid.individual.net>, Ken Blake
<ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

>
> What's better about a desktop:
>
> Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)
> Multiple screens possible
> Bigger, better keyboard, with more keys
> A mouse or trackball instead of a touchpad
> Potentially much bigger drive
> Potentially many more drives
> Possible CD/DVD drive
> More USB Ports
> Possibly better speakers, possibly with a woofer
> Less expensive
> Easily upgradeable
> Much easier to repair
> Much less liable to being dropped and destroyed
> Much less liable to being stolen
> Better cooling and less liable to overheating (I once destroyed a hard
> drive in a laptop, by setting it down on a table with a tablecloth)

>
>
> >> Au contraire because the serious stuff can be done everywhere
> >> with a laptop which is certainly not possible with a desktop. All the
> >> components of a desktop can be added to a laptop if needed.
>
>
>
> Yes, some of the things I mention above can be added to a laptop:

all of them can, with some laptops already including them, depending on
which laptop. they're not all the same.

you're also ignoring the many advantages a laptop has versus a desktop.

> monitor, mouse, external drives, etc. But as far as I'm concerned, if
> you add multiple things like those to a laptop, the laptop loses ts
> portability and what you have is essentially just a desktop with the
> case being shaped like a laptop.

except that when you do want the portability, you can just unplug the
extra stuff and take the laptop with you, then reconnect when you
return.

there are also laptop docks that make that very easy, rather than
fussing with multiple cables.

Am 25.10.21 um 18:40 schrieb AJL:
> On 10/25/2021 9:33 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> Touch-screen on a laptop? Not really for me. Ways to slow. That
>> greasy stuff on a screen. Disgusting ...
>
> Not a problem if you wash your hands every week or so...

*ROTFLSTC*

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On 10/25/2021 1:15 PM, AJL wrote:
> On 10/25/2021 12:08 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> What's better about a desktop:
>>
>> Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)
>
> Doesn't show any more than this LT's 13" screen.
>
>> Multiple screens possible
>
> No need. YMMV.
>
>> Bigger, better keyboard, with more keys
>
> No need. YMMV.
>
>> A mouse or trackball instead of a touchpad
>
> Am using a trackball right now with this LT in my easy chair. Try that
> with your desktop...
>
>> Potentially much bigger drive
>
> No need. Using less than 50%. YMMV.
>
>> Potentially many more drives
>
> No need but can plug drives in of needed. YMMV.
>
>> Possible CD/DVD drive
>
> Ditto last answer.
>
>> More USB Ports
>
> This LT's got 3 USB-C ports. Don't think I've ever used them all at the
> same time. YMMV.
>
>> Possibly better speakers, possibly with a woofer
>
> True. But I use earbuds if needed. Sounds just as good and less
> disturbance to nearby innocent parties.
>
>> Less expensive
>
> Perhaps for the same specs. But el cheapo LTs in the stores here start
> in the low hundreds.
>
>> Easily upgradeable
>
> So's mine. I just buy a new one when I get the whim. The old one
> goes to a grandkid. Win-win.
>
>> Much easier to repair
>
> Probably. Depending what part is broken. But I've never had a laptop
> break on its own (knocks on wood). I did have one catch fire once when I
> put the wrong screw in the wrong hole...
>
>> Much less liable to being dropped and destroyed
>
> And much less likely to be carried around the house and used in your
> favorite easy chair.
>
>> Much less liable to being stolen
>
> Not necessarily. Home burglaries happen...
>
>> A laptop is great to take with you when you travel;
>
> Agreed.
>
>> What I'm against is using a laptop in your home as a substitute for
>> a desktop. I know that many people do that, but as far as I'm
>> concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.
>
> Foolish?? YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. Etc. Do I make my point?

Note my words above "as far as I'm concerned." Yes, we all have
different views. You prefer a laptop and don't agree with the points I
made above. That's fine and you're not the only one I know who prefers a
laptop. As you say, YMMV. I know I'm right, and you know you're right. I
won't argue with you.

>
>> I do many fewer computer thing when I travel than I used to, and
>> these days I can do them all on my smart phone: google maps, e-mail,
>> Kindle, weather reports, restaurant reservations, etc. So I no
>> longer travel with a laptop. My phone is much smaller and lighter
>> and therefore easier to carry. And it meets all my needs.
>
> You don't carry a laptop on trips?? What a FOOLISH thing to do... ;)
>

--
Ken

On 10/25/2021 4:14 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 10/25/2021 1:15 PM, AJL wrote:
>> On 10/25/2021 12:08 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

>>> What I'm against is using a laptop in your home as a substitute
>>> for a desktop. I know that many people do that, but as far as
>>> I'm concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.

>> Foolish?? YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. Etc. Do I make my point?

> Note my words above "as far as I'm concerned."

I read your post (above) to say that you thought using a
laptop instead of a desktop at home was a foolish thing to do. So it
seems that in your mind folks who do must be foolish.

> You prefer a laptop and don't agree with the points I made above.

The only point I actually disagreed with is your all home laptop users
being foolish paragraph. The rest were just laptop alternatives.

> I know I'm right,

You're still wrong that all home laptop users are foolish.

> and you know you're right.

Course. I'm right that you're wrong about us foolish users.

> I won't argue with you.

Bet you do... ;)

Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
> On 10/25/2021 8:47 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[...]

> > OTOH, 'desktop' is also an ambiguous term as it might mean different
> > things to different people. To start with, what many/most people call
> > 'desktop's aren't desktops, but 'tower's.
>
>
> Technically, yes, of course that's right. But like many other names of
> things, the meaning of the name "desktop" has broadened and changed over
> the years. Whether you like the word or not, as far as I'm concerned, a
> tower is a kind of desktop.
>
> If you don't like the term "desktop" you can call them something like
> "stationary PCs," but the term "desktop" is so well established and so
> well understood by almost everybody that I see no reason to change the name.

"stationary PCs" is equally ambiguous, because that includes the other
groups which I mentioned, but which you didn't comment on:

[Fast forward/repeat:]

> > And then there are all kinds of 'Mini-PC's with many
> > subcategories, which are basically laptop-like devices, but without
> > display/keyboard/touchpad/battery. So some of these 'desktop's are also
> > not upgradeable/ expandable and also not user-repairable.

So "stationary PCs" also doesn't cut it.

[...]

[Rewind:]
[About 'tower's:]

> > And even those are in many
> > form factors.
>
>
> Yes. My current desktop tower is a full tower. It's the biggest tower
> I've ever had; maybe even the biggest I've ever seen. It sits on the floor.

So *your* idea of a "desktop" is a full-size tower with several
full-size 'slots'/'drawers'.

Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
[...]

[Comparing to a laptop:]

> What's better about a desktop:

We've determined that when *you* say "desktop", are talking about a
full-size 'tower' with multiple full-size slots/drawers.

> Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)

Can be plugged in. (Also see later mentioned docking station.)

> Multiple screens possible

Often possible, two or more.

> Bigger, better keyboard, with more keys

As I've said in another response, for a standard 15.6" (screen)
laptop, the alpha part of the keyboard is only 1cm less wide, big deal.
Laptops can have excellent keyboards, our 6+(+) year old ones do. And
they have a seperate numeric keypad and cursor and page control keys and
special function keys. What "more keys" would anyone want?

> A mouse or trackball instead of a touchpad

As they are external, there's no difference.

> Potentially much bigger drive

Yes. Mine is 1TB. Several laptop can have 2TB or more.

> Potentially many more drives

Yes. Where many is greater than three or so.

> Possible CD/DVD drive

Ours have one built-in. Not that I want it. External ones are very
small and inexpensive.

> More USB Ports

Most have three or more, plenty for most users. I use no more than two
at a time.

> Possibly better speakers, possibly with a woofer

Huh? Those are external (to the 'desktop'/'tower'), so there's no
difference.

> Less expensive

No, about even and depending on specs, either can be cheaper or more
expensive.

> Easily upgradeable

Yes. (For full tower.)

> Much easier to repair

Yes. (For full tower.)

> Much less liable to being dropped and destroyed

Funny that, if you don't move an object, you also can't drop it.

> Much less liable to being stolen

Outside yes, inside about the same.

> Better cooling and less liable to overheating (I once destroyed a hard
> drive in a laptop, by setting it down on a table with a tablecloth)

The laptop should have shut down.

> >> Au contraire because the serious stuff can be done everywhere
> >> with a laptop which is certainly not possible with a desktop. All the
> >> components of a desktop can be added to a laptop if needed.
>
> Yes, some of the things I mention above can be added to a laptop:
> monitor, mouse, external drives, etc. But as far as I'm concerned, if
> you add multiple things like those to a laptop, the laptop loses ts
> portability and what you have is essentially just a desktop with the
> case being shaped like a laptop.

Of course the laptop doesn't loose its portability. And for easy
connection/disconnection one can use a docking station.

I used that professionally: A docking station at (work at/from) home,
a laptop - travelling between home and office and vice versa - and a
docking station at the office. Both with big monitor, seperate keyboard
and mouse/trackball/<whatever>.

> I'm not completely against laptops. A laptop is great to take with you
> when you travel; I've done it several times. What I'm against is using a
> laptop in your home as a substitute for a desktop. I know that many
> people do that, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.

As others have mentioned it's absolutely *not* "foolish". We can move
around the house as we please. We're not stuck to being where the
computer happens to be installed and we do not need two fixed work areas
which take up space, are inflexible, not 'cosy', etc..

FYI, I have used (real computers) 'desktops', 'towers', the above
docking station setups and - since retiring - a laptop.

So don't judge others by *your* needs/wants/compromises.

> I do many fewer computer thing when I travel than I used to, and these
> days I can do them all on my smart phone: google maps, e-mail, Kindle,
> weather reports, restaurant reservations, etc. So I no longer travel
> with a laptop. My phone is much smaller and lighter and therefore easier
> to carry. And it meets all my needs.

And that exactly proves the/my point: Your (travel) needs are
satisfied by your phone. For travels beyond a few days, I need my laptop
(and phone and sometimes tablet).

So as always, it's YMMV/YMWV. And yes, we know you often indicate that
what you say are your preferences, not facts, but your wording sometimes
(often?) make it sound that your choice/preference is somehow superior,
and that is .... foolish! :-)

On 10/26/2021 5:34 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
> [Comparing to a laptop:]
>
>> What's better about a desktop:
>
> We've determined that when *you* say "desktop", are talking about a
> full-size 'tower' with multiple full-size slots/drawers.

No.I said nothing like that. Regardless of what *my* desktop is, as far
as I'm concerned, a desktop is any stationary computer, including any
kind of tower.

>> Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)
>
> Can be plugged in. (Also see later mentioned docking station.)

Regarding this and other points you make, I'll repeat what I said
below: But as far as I'm concerned, if you add multiple things like
those to a laptop, the laptop loses its portability and what you have is
essentially just a desktop with the case being shaped like a laptop.

>
>> Multiple screens possible
>
> Often possible, two or more.
>
>> Bigger, better keyboard, with more keys
>
> As I've said in another response, for a standard 15.6" (screen)
> laptop, the alpha part of the keyboard is only 1cm less wide, big deal.
> Laptops can have excellent keyboards, our 6+(+) year old ones do. And
> they have a seperate numeric keypad and cursor and page control keys and
> special function keys. What "more keys" would anyone want?
>
>> A mouse or trackball instead of a touchpad
>
> As they are external, there's no difference.
>
>> Potentially much bigger drive
>
> Yes. Mine is 1TB. Several laptop can have 2TB or more.
>
>> Potentially many more drives
>
> Yes. Where many is greater than three or so.
>
>> Possible CD/DVD drive
>
> Ours have one built-in. Not that I want it. External ones are very
> small and inexpensive.
>
>> More USB Ports
>
> Most have three or more, plenty for most users. I use no more than two
> at a time.

I always use four, and sometimes more: keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner.

>> Possibly better speakers, possibly with a woofer
>
> Huh? Those are external (to the 'desktop'/'tower'), so there's no
> difference.
>
>> Less expensive
>
> No, about even and depending on specs, either can be cheaper or more
> expensive.
>
>> Easily upgradeable
>
> Yes. (For full tower.)
>
>> Much easier to repair
>
> Yes. (For full tower.)
>
>> Much less liable to being dropped and destroyed
>
> Funny that, if you don't move an object, you also can't drop it.
>
>> Much less liable to being stolen
>
> Outside yes, inside about the same.
>
>> Better cooling and less liable to overheating (I once destroyed a hard
>> drive in a laptop, by setting it down on a table with a tablecloth)
>
> The laptop should have shut down.
>
>> >> Au contraire because the serious stuff can be done everywhere
>> >> with a laptop which is certainly not possible with a desktop. All the
>> >> components of a desktop can be added to a laptop if needed.
>>
>> Yes, some of the things I mention above can be added to a laptop:
>> monitor, mouse, external drives, etc. But as far as I'm concerned, if
>> you add multiple things like those to a laptop, the laptop loses ts
>> portability and what you have is essentially just a desktop with the
>> case being shaped like a laptop.
>
> Of course the laptop doesn't loose its portability. And for easy
> connection/disconnection one can use a docking station.
>
> I used that professionally: A docking station at (work at/from) home,
> a laptop - travelling between home and office and vice versa - and a
> docking station at the office. Both with big monitor, seperate keyboard
> and mouse/trackball/<whatever>.
>
>> I'm not completely against laptops. A laptop is great to take with you
>> when you travel; I've done it several times. What I'm against is using a
>> laptop in your home as a substitute for a desktop. I know that many
>> people do that, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.
>
> As others have mentioned it's absolutely *not* "foolish". We can move
> around the house as we please. We're not stuck to being where the
> computer happens to be installed and we do not need two fixed work areas
> which take up space, are inflexible, not 'cosy', etc..
>
> FYI, I have used (real computers) 'desktops', 'towers', the above
> docking station setups and - since retiring - a laptop.
>
> So don't judge others by *your* needs/wants/compromises.
>
>> I do many fewer computer thing when I travel than I used to, and these
>> days I can do them all on my smart phone: google maps, e-mail, Kindle,
>> weather reports, restaurant reservations, etc. So I no longer travel
>> with a laptop. My phone is much smaller and lighter and therefore easier
>> to carry. And it meets all my needs.
>
> And that exactly proves the/my point: Your (travel) needs are
> satisfied by your phone. For travels beyond a few days, I need my laptop
> (and phone and sometimes tablet).
>
> So as always, it's YMMV/YMWV. And yes, we know you often indicate that
> what you say are your preferences, not facts, but your wording sometimes
> (often?) make it sound that your choice/preference is somehow superior,
> and that is .... foolish! :-)
>

--
Ken

On 10/26/2021 4:44 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Ken Blake <ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>> On 10/25/2021 8:47 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> [...]
>
>> > OTOH, 'desktop' is also an ambiguous term as it might mean different
>> > things to different people. To start with, what many/most people call
>> > 'desktop's aren't desktops, but 'tower's.
>>
>>
>> Technically, yes, of course that's right. But like many other names of
>> things, the meaning of the name "desktop" has broadened and changed over
>> the years. Whether you like the word or not, as far as I'm concerned, a
>> tower is a kind of desktop.
>>
>> If you don't like the term "desktop" you can call them something like
>> "stationary PCs," but the term "desktop" is so well established and so
>> well understood by almost everybody that I see no reason to change the name.
>
> "stationary PCs" is equally ambiguous, because that includes the other
> groups which I mentioned, but which you didn't comment on:
>
> [Fast forward/repeat:]
>
>> > And then there are all kinds of 'Mini-PC's with many
>> > subcategories, which are basically laptop-like devices, but without
>> > display/keyboard/touchpad/battery. So some of these 'desktop's are also
>> > not upgradeable/ expandable and also not user-repairable.
>
> So "stationary PCs" also doesn't cut it.
>
> [...]
>
> [Rewind:]
> [About 'tower's:]
>
>> > And even those are in many
>> > form factors.
>>
>>
>> Yes. My current desktop tower is a full tower. It's the biggest tower
>> I've ever had; maybe even the biggest I've ever seen. It sits on the floor.
>
> So *your* idea of a "desktop" is a full-size tower with several
> full-size 'slots'/'drawers'.

No. That's my desktop, not everyone else's
>

--
Ken

On 10/25/2021 6:50 PM, AJL wrote:
> On 10/25/2021 4:14 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 10/25/2021 1:15 PM, AJL wrote:
>>> On 10/25/2021 12:08 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>>>> What I'm against is using a laptop in your home as a substitute
>>>> for a desktop. I know that many people do that, but as far as
>>>> I'm concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.
>
>>> Foolish?? YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. YMMV. Etc. Do I make my point?
>
>> Note my words above "as far as I'm concerned."
>
> I read your post (above) to say that you thought using a
> laptop instead of a desktop at home was a foolish thing to do. So it
> seems that in your mind folks who do must be foolish.
>
>> You prefer a laptop and don't agree with the points I made above.
>
> The only point I actually disagreed with is your all home laptop users
> being foolish paragraph. The rest were just laptop alternatives.
>
>> I know I'm right,
>
> You're still wrong that all home laptop users are foolish.
>
>> and you know you're right.
>
> Course. I'm right that you're wrong about us foolish users.
>
>> I won't argue with you.
>
> Bet you do... ;)

Nope. Feel free to believe whatever you want to.

--
Ken

On 2021-10-25 12:08 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On 10/25/2021 7:40 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 9:45 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 24.10.21 um 19:22 schrieb Ken Blake:
>>>> As far as I'm concerned,
>>>>
>>>> A desktop can do much more serious stuff than
>>>>
>>>> a laptop, which can do more serious stuff than
>>>>
>>>> a tablet,  which can do more serious stuff than
>>>>
>>>> a smart phone.
>>>
>>> I tend to agree except I see no difference between a laptop and a
>>> desktop.
>>
>>
>> Many differences. I have to go out now, so I can't list them, but I'll
>> try to remember to do it later.
>
>
>
> What's better about a desktop:
>
> Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)

But external to the device, so just as possible with a laptop.

>
> Multiple screens possible

Also possible with a laptop.

>
> Bigger, better keyboard, with more keys

Once again, external to the device so completely possible with a laptop.

>
> A mouse or trackball instead of a touchpad

Ditto.

>
> Potentially much bigger drive

So for any use case where you don't need a bigger drive than a couple of
terabytes (what: 98% of all use cases).

>
> Potentially many more drives

Supra

>
> Possible CD/DVD drive

Add an external to a laptop.

>
> More USB Ports

Add a docking station/hub

>
> Possibly better speakers, possibly with a woofer

External and therefore not an advantage.

>
> Less expensive

True.

>
> Easily upgradeable

Also true

>
> Much easier to repair

Also true.

>
> Much less liable to being dropped and destroyed

True but irrelevant, as you cannot pick it up and use it anywhere else.

>
> Much less liable to being stolen

But much less able to be used anywhere but one's desk.

>
> Better cooling and less liable to overheating (I once destroyed a hard
> drive in a laptop, by setting it down on a table with a tablecloth)

I submit that that was due to poor design, not an inherent issue with
laptops per se.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> Au contraire because the serious stuff can be done everywhere
>>> with a laptop which is certainly not possible with a desktop. All the
>>> components of a desktop can be added to a laptop if needed.
>
>
>
> Yes, some of the things I mention above can be added to a laptop:
> monitor, mouse, external drives, etc. But as far as I'm concerned, if
> you add multiple things like those to a laptop, the laptop loses ts
> portability and what you have is essentially just a desktop with the
> case being shaped like a laptop.

No, actually. The laptop is still every bit as portable as it was before
you added those devices.

I just set up my sister-in-law with her work laptop and a docking
station, so to pick it up and go, she needs to unplug ONE (1) USB-C cable.

>
> I'm not completely against laptops. A laptop is great to take with you
> when you travel; I've done it several times. What I'm against is using a
> laptop in your home as a substitute for a desktop. I know that many
> people do that, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a foolish thing to do.

Which is an absurd thing to think foolish.

There are very few people who need the things that you cannot do with a
laptop, but nearly everyone would benefit at least from time-to-time
from being able to take their computer elsewhere (he said, typing from
his favourite breakfast restaurant).

>
> I do many fewer computer thing when I travel than I used to, and these
> days I can do them all on my smart phone: google maps, e-mail, Kindle,
> weather reports, restaurant reservations, etc. So I no longer travel
> with a laptop. My phone is much smaller and lighter and therefore easier
> to carry. And it meets all my needs.

Bully for you.

Ken Blake wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:

>> Most [laptops] have three or more [ports], plenty for most users.
>> I use no more than two at a time.

> I always use four, and sometimes more: keyboard, mouse, printer,
> scanner.

None of that requires a port on my laptops. The keyboard is built in and
my trackball mouse and printer/scanner are wireless. So I still have all
my ports free...

On 2021-10-26 9:57 a.m., AJL wrote:
> Ken Blake wrote:
>> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>>> Most [laptops] have three or more [ports], plenty for most users.
>>> I use no more than two at a time.
>
>> I always use four, and sometimes more: keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner.
>
> None of that requires a port on my laptops. The keyboard is built in and
> my trackball mouse and printer/scanner are wireless. So I still have all
> my ports free...

And if you want all that external to the laptop:

USB hub.

In article <itqp0vFgaamU1@mid.individual.net>, Ken Blake
<ken@invalidemail.com> wrote:

> >> Bigger screen (possibly much bigger)
> >
> > Can be plugged in. (Also see later mentioned docking station.)
>
>
> Regarding this and other points you make, I'll repeat what I said
> below: But as far as I'm concerned, if you add multiple things like
> those to a laptop, the laptop loses its portability and what you have is
> essentially just a desktop with the case being shaped like a laptop.

there is no need to connect multiple things.

however, for those who do connect peripherals, a laptop retains the
ability to disconnect from that and then be portable, making it *more*
versatile than something that is always immobile.

depending on the laptop, performance is comparable to a desktop, and in
some cases, better.

> >> More USB Ports
> >
> > Most have three or more, plenty for most users. I use no more than two
> > at a time.
>
>
> I always use four, and sometimes more: keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner.

with a bluetooth keyboard & mouse, along with a network printer &
scanner, which is usually the same device, you won't need any ports on
the laptop.

if the printer and scanner can only connect via usb, it's unlikely that
you would be using both at the same time and also unlikely that they
need to always be connected, so they could share a port, as needed.

some usb keyboards have a usb port for a mouse, also saving a port.

that means only 2 usb ports would be needed if you don't go wireless,
maybe 3 just in case something else needs to be connected.

another solution is connect all of your directly attached peripherals
to a suitable usb or thunderbolt hub, then you only need one port on
the laptop, which also makes it much easier to connect and disconnect
everything.

In article <sl9bg8$1l0l$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:

> > Less expensive
>
> True.
>
> >
> > Easily upgradeable
>
> Also true
>
> >
> > Much easier to repair
>
> Also true.

that depends on the laptop and desktop.

some laptops are less expensive for similar performance as a desktop,
and when performance isn't an issue (writing documents, web surfing,
email, etc.), laptops can be very inexpensive.

some laptops are upgradable and some are not. it's rare that users
upgrade so this isn't normally an issue.

some laptops are easy to repair and some desktops are not. very few
people repair their own computers, so repairability is also not
important. in the event something goes wrong, they take it to the
repair shop and let someone else worry about it. or, if it's major,
insurance pays for a replacement, which is often an upgrade.

> > Better cooling and less liable to overheating (I once destroyed a hard
> > drive in a laptop, by setting it down on a table with a tablecloth)
>
> I submit that that was due to poor design, not an inherent issue with
> laptops per se.

that is absolutely correct.

some laptops have fan vents on the bottom, which is the worst possible
place to put them.

most laptops have vents on the side and/or top and have no issues with
being used on a tablecloth, pillows or other materials.

On 2021-10-26 10:05 a.m., nospam wrote:
> In article <sl9bg8$1l0l$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> Less expensive
>>
>> True.
>>
>>>
>>> Easily upgradeable
>>
>> Also true
>>
>>>
>>> Much easier to repair
>>
>> Also true.
>
> that depends on the laptop and desktop.
>
> some laptops are less expensive for similar performance as a desktop,
> and when performance isn't an issue (writing documents, web surfing,
> email, etc.), laptops can be very inexpensive.

If that's true, they are the outliers.

>
> some laptops are upgradable and some are not. it's rare that users
> upgrade so this isn't normally an issue.

It's certainly rarer than people upgrade laptops, but there are quite a
few people who upgrade desktops from the configuration in which they
were purchased.

I know this, because I recommend it to my clients and it works well for
them.

>
> some laptops are easy to repair and some desktops are not. very few

Again: you're picking the outliers.

> people repair their own computers, so repairability is also not
> important. in the event something goes wrong, they take it to the
> repair shop and let someone else worry about it. or, if it's major,
> insurance pays for a replacement, which is often an upgrade.

I agree that relatively few people do their own repairs, but for those
who do, desktops are almost always easier to repair.

Even if you do take it to a shop, laptop repairs will typically cost
more, because even there, it takes longer to get to what needs repairing
(again: in general).

nospam wrote:

> some laptops have fan vents on the bottom, which is the worst
> possible place to put them.

Yup. Both my Windows laptops vents are on the bottom. I always use
them on a pillow on my lap in the easy chair. Most of the time there's
no problem. But if I do something like downloading I sometimes hear
the fans start.

> most laptops have vents on the side and/or top and have no issues
> with being used on a tablecloth, pillows or other materials.

And some like this Chromebook have no vents at all. Perhaps that's why I
like it best for casual use. It never complains about my pillow...

On 10/24/2021 05:34 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 09:30 AM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 04:55 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10/23/2021 03:00 PM, pinnerite wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> > The thing is that I believe it was better at the beginning.
>>>>
>>>> I think you may be right. It's really hard to find small roads out in
>>>> "the hinterlands", and I think that area boundaries (like national
>>>> parks), state lines etc. used to be obvious. Maybe even TRAILS.
>>>>
>>>> Using google maps for city streets, major highways etc. is fine, but
>>>> using it for anything else on a phone is less than optimum. I don't
>>>> understand how people can get along without desktops...
>>>
>>> That's why <insert_diety> invented OsmAnd, didn't She!?
>>>
>>> Ever since I use OsmAnd(+), I've set 'Map style' to 'Touring view',
>>> which gives "high contrast and maximum detail".
>>
>> I used to like that because it would save a track and was easy to use.
>> It was always battery-hungry, unfortunately. With updates it became
>> more and more complicated to find what I wanted so I finally deleted it
>> and CoPilot -- which didn't save tracks, but had become more complex.
>>
>> I did like the OSMand map, though. Maybe if I just install it without
>> saving desired destinations and just use it to LOOK at he maps it will
>> behave better...
>>
>>> It's essential for small(er) roads, tracks, trails, etc., but it's
>>> perfectly fine for normal use on bigger roads as well.
>>>
>>> "Touring view, don't leave home without it!"
>>
>> Hrm. It already had my saved destinations from last time, so there was
>> clearly a hidden file that wasn't deleted when I got rid of it before.
>> It didn't save the maps, though, so I'm downloading 1.5GB worth. I'll
>> still have 48GB empty!
>
> I tried to get it to record a track. It seems to be unable to stop, and
> has apparently logged over 7 thousand miles, although I can't find the
> actual track. The 'help' doesn't.

In addition, I am unable to find how to actually turn it off. I
'closed' it by swiping, but by 11 pm the battery was down to 9% and the
phone shut down when I attempted to kill it. Info about which app did
the dirty deed is, of course, gone.

IS there a switch to actually turn iOSMand off, or do we have to kill it
from the edit/info/uninstall function of the phone? That's an
intolerable nuisance.

> So far the easiest save-a-track app is Ski Tracks. It actually makes
> sense when you're on a ski slope, but if you're not on a ski slope it
> just shows a blank screen with a path line. It does save a .gpx track
> which you can feed into google earth (edit out the track name, which
> provides no useful information and just clutters up the GE display)and
> works nicely, even in bright sunlight -- but better if you can pull your
> head and phone inside your jacket along with your reading glasses.
>
> I paid 99 cents for it. It may be free now. I just added to my review...

--
Cheers, Bev
Subscribe today to "Fire in the Hole - the Quarterly Journal
for Incinerator Toilet Enthusiasts" -- Andrew