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computers / comp.mobile.android / Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

SubjectAuthor
* Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
|`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -John McGaw
|+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
|`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequentlyChris
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -John McGaw
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |     +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |     `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |      +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |      `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 || `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Wade Garrett
 ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Wade Garrett
 ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 ||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 ||+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 |||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 ||| `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 |||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 |||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 |||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reClifford Heath
 |||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 |||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli
 ||+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 |||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || || +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || || `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequentlyChris
 || ||  +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking remike
 || ||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || ||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Bob F
 || | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |    +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |     +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |     `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |      `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |       `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        | | | |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | |   +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |   |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |   +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |    |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | |     +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |     |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |     | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |     |  +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |     |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |     |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |     |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |     |     `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | |     `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking renospam
 || |        | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        | | `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Bob F
 || |        | `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking reAndy Burnelli

Pages:12345
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: sms
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 19:28 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 12:28:13 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On 5/6/2022 11:29 AM, Wade Garrett wrote:
On 5/6/22 11:43 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2022-05-06, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 5/6/2022 12:57 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact.
Fast charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery,
therefore fast charging will reduce the battery life.

Actually there is no evidence that "fast charging," at the rates we're
currently seeing on most phones, damages batteries.

Wrong. There's plenty of evidence that fast charging increases heat
which is damaging to batteries.

I worry about heat too. Wireless charging my iPhone on the Qi pad in my car warms the phone...and more so if I leave it in its case.

And it warms even more if I also rest it on the sticky pad I sometimes keep on the car's charge pad to prevent the phone from sliding when turning corners.

Inductive charging is not the same as wired charging.

For wired charging, there is no downside to proper fast charging that charges at a higher rate when the battery is very discharged then reducing the charge rate as the battery fills.

 From https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/does-fast-charging-affect-battery-life-6-phone-battery-questions-answered/:

"Unless there's some technical flaw with your battery or charger electronics, however, using a fast charger won't do your phone's battery any long-term damage.

Here's why. Fast-charging batteries work in two phases. The first phase applies a blast of voltage to the empty or nearly empty battery. This gives you that blazing charge of from 50% to 70% in the first 10, 15 or 30 minutes. That's because during the first phase of charging, batteries can absorb a charge quickly without major negative effects on their long-term health."


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Jeff Liebermann
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 21:26 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 16:26:48 -0500
From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 14:26:49 -0700
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On Fri, 6 May 2022 17:44:09 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Oops.  Wrong app.  The one I was using is:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.liuzh.deviceinfo

To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.

What's a GSF?  All I could find was Golden State Foods.

My criteria for apps is no adds and the ability to do at least the one
thing that I need very well.  I don't care about the rest.

Although for some reason, moving from Android 11 to 12 removed hundreds!

Ummm... How many apps do you have on your Android phone?  See:
  Settings -> Apps and Notifications
and look for something like "See all 202 apps".  Mine has 202 apps,
which I consider to be an overdose.

https://i.postimg.cc/FHJ16nvF/update01.jpg Android 11->12 screwed up!

I'm still on Android 11 and am now at end of life with the last
security update on Apr 22, 2022.
https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/software-security-page/g_id/6806#gs=eyJndWlkZUlEIjo2ODA2LCJxdWVzdGlvbklEIjo0LCJyZXNwb25zZUlEIjoyMSwiZ3VpZGVTZXNzaW9uIjoiSjFJZ2huRXAiLCJzZXNzaW9uSUQiOiJKMUlnaG5FcCJ9
That's a 2 year useful life from date of Apr 2020 release.  Part of
the problem is that Motorola has too many models to maintain:
"Evolution of Motorola Moto G 2013 - 2021"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8d2tUYjn0U

So it's not hard to recover even with hundreds of apps gone AWOL.

I would think that the Android 12 update did you a favor.  Time for a
spring cleaning.  Wipe everything and start over from scratch.

But what you see here are the adfree hardware device info apps I suggest:
*DevCheck Hardware and System Info* by flar2
*Inware* by evowizz
*Device Info HW* by Andrey Efremov

Ok, I'll give them a try but will probably add them to my "run once"
app collection.  Thanks for including the author's name.  Apps with
duplicated names are becoming all too common.

--
Jeff Liebermann                 jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272      http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann      AE6KS    831-336-2558


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Jeff Liebermann
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 21:53 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 16:53:03 -0500
From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 14:53:04 -0700
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On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:07:35 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 5/6/2022 7:53 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 6 May 2022 07:57:08 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
wrote:

Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact. Fast
charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery, therefore fast
charging will reduce the battery life.

Nope, or at least not what I've seen with my testing (and screwing
around).  A few decades ago, I decided that NiCd cells would only
become warm if over charged past 100%.  Well, I was off a little but
my thermocouple tests showed that up to about 75% of full charge, I
could literally charge the NiCd cell at whatever sky high rate I found
amusing.  The problem was that if I missed and went over about 85% of
full charge at the ridiculous rates I was using, the cell would
generate enough gas and heat to blow the end out and generally make a
mess.

Ni-cad cells are less efficient when slow-charged (see
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-407-charging-nickel-cadmium

"Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned?  All I find is:
To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C
and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop,
especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches
full charge at a different time point."
In other words, the dip in terminal voltage that defines EOC
(end-of-charge) is less obvious for a slow charge than for a faster
charge.  If the charge controller misses this dip, it could easily
overcharge the NiCd battery and ruin it.  There's nothing in there
about "efficiency".

NiMH cells are best charged using the "step-differential" method (see
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-408-charging-nickel-metal-hydride

I think we have different definitions of what is "best".  From the
above URL:

"Chargers utilizing the step-differential or other aggressive charge
methods achieve a capacity gain of about 6 percent over a more basic
charger. Although a higher capacity is desirable, filling the battery
to the brim adds stress and shortens the overall battery life. Rather
than achieving the expected 350 - 400 service cycles, the aggressive
charger might exhaust the pack after 300 cycles."

I read that as a 6% theoretical gain, at the cost of 100 service
cycles or about 30% of the useful life of the battery.  As I vaguely
recall, the justification for step-differential charging was that it
was less likely to overcharge a battery when the battery was being
"topped off" near the EOC.  The 30% loss of useful life was considered
justifiable compared to killing the battery from overcharging.

It seems like many people want to believe that slow-charging batteries
has some benefit in longevity and/or capacity, so you see statements
like "it is a known fact...," even when the statements are really not true.

It is a known fact that most known facts are wrong.

Please note that until you brought up the term "battery", which means
more than one "cell", the discussion was about cell phones, which
currently favor one LiIon cell and do not use a "battery" of cells.
With a single cell, the complexities of a BMS (battery management
system), cell balancing, over/under voltage, over/under current, etc
are not quite as complexicated as with a battery of cells.

If the choice is only between a) "fast charge at high-current to 100%
capacity" versus b) slow-charge at low current to 100% capacity" then
yes, slow charging is better, but that's not how modern smart phones, or
modern electric vehicles, with lithium-based batteries actually are charged.

True.  Again, we started this discussion with single LiIon cells as
found in smartphones.  It would be nice if your could limit the
discussion to this arrangement.

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
of one or more cells".  It wasn't always like that, but since
literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
definition.

--
Jeff Liebermann                 jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272      http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann      AE6KS    831-336-2558


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: AJL
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 22:04 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: noem...@none.com (AJL)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:04:21 -0700
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On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
of one or more cells".  It wasn't always like that, but since
literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
definition.

Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell phones
these days according to several dictionaries. Just as doing things you
really really enjoy makes you gay. Well at least it did in my youth...




Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Jeff Liebermann
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 22:32 UTC
References: 1 2 3
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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 15:32:21 -0700
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On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:41 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Please not that I didn't write the following quote, you did.  Please
watch your attributions.

I am testing if it takes _longer_ to "fast charge" a phone if you
_frequently_ let the battery run down to zero - and it seems to be.

Why?

That's like asking a chemistry teacher why there's a chemistry lab.
Or asking a physics professor why she bothers to run the lab.
Or asking why a microbiology class bothers to grow bacterial cultures.

No, it's not.  I guess I should be more specific.  I would like to
know why you find it necessary to test a LiIon cell in a charge range
of zero to 20%, where literally every recommendation by the
manufacturers declare that to be an RBI (really bad idea)?  Looks that
specs for any BMS (battery management system) found inside most LiIon
battery packs.  There is a feature that literally disconnects the cell
if the terminal voltage goes below some value which usually works out
to about 20% charge.  Maybe this will help you understand the problem
you're creating for yourself:
"Lithium Ion Cell Operating Window"
https://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm
Notice that the "operating area" is between 20% and 90% SOC.

So it's not just me who is curious what happens in the real world.

Yes, but you are not the entire real world.  Your currently
undisclosed operating criteria is not the same as every user and
certainly not the same as the cell phone manufacturer.  The
manufacturer wants big numbers because big number sell phones.
Whatever it takes to produce big numbers balanced by cost and safety
issues.  Big numbers are rather useless if the phone catches fire in
the owners pocket.  So, the game of battery specmanship degenerates
into squeezing as many watt-hours out of the battery as possible by
any means deemed economical (and maybe reliable).  Do it wrong, and
you have a situation like Apple, where the phone had to be slowed down
to produce a reasonable runtime as the battery aged.  At that point,
the user gets involved and tries to squeeze out as much power as
possible.  However, they can't because the manufacturer has already
done that with a complexicated BMS algorithm.  So the user looks to
see what can be gained by breaking the safety rules.  Good luck.  If
you are actually able to run the phone at extremely low SOC, then the
manufacturer has screwed up and is selling an unsafe phone, battery,
or both.  What phone and battery are you using and I'll be sure to
blacklist it.

I've always been curious about the best way to do almost any thing.
And destructive testing is a fantastic way to figure out what really
happens in the real world under real world conditions, even as you can't
hope to run a "consumers report" style full-fledged scientific
investigation with basic home equipment.

Please note my domain name, LearnByDestroying.com.  The intent is
slightly different from yours.  It's my contention that one does not
understand how something works without first breaking it, and
subsequently fixing it.  Destructive testing, without subsequent
understanding (and enlightenment) is useless.

Still... I try to learn... and destructive testing is part of learning.

It's a tiny part but admittedly the fun part.  It's lots of fun to
blow things up.  It's less fun, but more educational to understand how
the device you just destroyed functions.  When you destroy something
(like your phone battery), do you take or record measurements?  Do you
record a video for an instant replay?  Have you worked out in advance
what you expect to happen?  Do you look for anomalies?  Do you own a
data logger?  How would blowing up a cell phone battery demonstrate
anything if you don't know at what voltage (or SOC) and temperature it
blew up?  Did you put a plastic bag over the phone to capture any
gasses (and flying glass) produced?  Do you have a new battery or
phone available for comparisons?  Without these, all you've "learned"
is how to blow up a battery or phone.

When I was a kid, my dad kept a box of old "stuff" for me to take apart.

Hint:  I still act like I'm kid.  I even take things apart BEFORE I
try operating them.

Why does anyone run any experiment?

Usually because they are suspicious of the established theories of
operation and have reason to suspect that parts of the theories are
wrong or badly understood.

--
Jeff Liebermann                 jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272      http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann      AE6KS    831-336-2558


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: sms
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 22:42 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:42:02 -0700
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On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

"Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned?  All I find is:
To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C
and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop,
especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches
full charge at a different time point."

"Fast charging improves the charge efficiency. At 1C charge rate, the efficiency of a standard NiCd is 91 percent and the charge time is about an hour (66 minutes at 91 percent). On a slow charger, the efficiency drops to 71 percent, prolonging the charge time to about 14 hours at 0.1C."


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Jeff Liebermann
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 22:43 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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On Fri, 6 May 2022 15:04:21 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
of one or more cells".  It wasn't always like that, but since
literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
definition.

Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell phones
these days according to several dictionaries. Just as doing things you
really really enjoy makes you gay. Well at least it did in my youth...

The original definition of battery referred to a collection of
artillery for military purposes. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery
"Historically the term "battery" referred to a cluster of cannon in
action as a group, either in a temporary field position during a
battle or at the siege of a fortress or a city."

Ok.  Let's say you have exactly one cannon.  Would you call it a
"battery"?  Or would you call it a "battery of cannon"?  Methinks not.
So why would you call a single cell, as found in a cell phone, a
"battery"?

What do you call a collection of cells?  A gallery of cells such as
celery?

Drivel:
One mouse, two mice.
One house, two hice?

--
Jeff Liebermann                 jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272      http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann      AE6KS    831-336-2558


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Wade Garrett
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 23:04 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Wad...@cooler.net (Wade Garrett)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 19:04:42 -0400
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On 5/6/22 2:44 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2022-05-06, Wade Garrett <Wade@cooler.net> wrote:
On 5/6/22 11:43 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2022-05-06, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
On 5/6/2022 12:57 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact.
Fast charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery,
therefore fast charging will reduce the battery life.

Actually there is no evidence that "fast charging," at the rates
we're currently seeing on most phones, damages batteries.

Wrong. There's plenty of evidence that fast charging increases heat
which is damaging to batteries.

I worry about heat too. Wireless charging my iPhone on the Qi pad in
my car warms the phone...and more so if I leave it in its case.

And it warms even more if I also rest it on the sticky pad I sometimes
keep on the car's charge pad to prevent the phone from sliding when
turning corners.

Quod sequitur. Wireless charging is generally less efficient than using
a physical connection, and the greater the distance between the coils,
the less efficient the transfer of energy is and the more heat gets
generated. A case will increase the distance and lessen the efficiency.

Since I use an old iPhone SE as a dash cam in my car, and I don't smoke,
I have a Lightning to USB charge cable semi-permanently connected to the
cigarette lighter port in the center console. So I just use that same
cable in the extremely rare instances I need to charge my daily-driver
iPhone in the car (can't actually remember the last time that was though
- probably on a road trip).

Just curious- do you leave the phone sitting on the dash when parking the car in the street or parking lot?

--
If an old dude ever gives you advice while peeling an apple with a pocket knife and eating the pieces right off the blade, you should probably take it.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: AJL
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 23:12 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
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From: noem...@none.com (AJL)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 16:12:18 -0700
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On 5/6/2022 3:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 6 May 2022 15:04:21 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is
"consisting of one or more cells".  It wasn't always like that,
but since literally everyone uses battery when they should be
using call, the official definition was mutilated to accommodate
an expanded definition.

Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell
phones these days according to several dictionaries. Just as doing
things you really really enjoy makes you gay. Well at least it did
in my youth...

The original definition of battery referred to a collection of
artillery for military purposes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery "Historically the
term "battery" referred to a cluster of cannon in action as a group,
either in a temporary field position during a battle or at the siege
of a fortress or a city."

And the original definition of gay was happy. I repeat, language
changes. Dictionaries usually give the current meaning, though they
sometimes disagree as well.

Ok.  Let's say you have exactly one cannon.  Would you call it a
"battery"?  Or would you call it a "battery of cannon"?

I'd call it a cannon. That's current usage. Language is not always
logical...

Methinks not. So why would you call a single cell, as found in a cell
phone, a "battery"?

Because it's the current common usage.

What do you call a collection of cells?

A battery. My 9 volt battery contains a collection of cells. Likewise my
car battery. Current usage...

A gallery of cells such as celery?

That may be the usage someday, you never know... 8-O

Drivel: One mouse, two mice. One house, two hice?

One Usenet post is a post, several Usenet posts are a fence??




Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Jeff Liebermann
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 23:16 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 16:16:59 -0700
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On Fri, 6 May 2022 15:42:02 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

"Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned?  All I find is:
To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C
and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop,
especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches
full charge at a different time point."

"Fast charging improves the charge efficiency. At 1C charge rate, the
efficiency of a standard NiCd is 91 percent and the charge time is about
an hour (66 minutes at 91 percent). On a slow charger, the efficiency
drops to 71 percent, prolonging the charge time to about 14 hours at 0.1C."

Oops.  I missed that part.  However, it's still wrong.  1C is a fast
charge for a NiCD.  0.1C is a normal charge rate.  0.05C to 0.1C is a
trickle charge:
https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/battery-technology/nicad-nicd-nickel-cadmium-recharging.php
"Normally cells are charged at a rate of around C/10."

C/10 is maintained to where the NiCd is charged to about 70% SOC:
"It is found that during the first stage of charging, up to about 70%
of full charge, the charging process is nearly 100% efficient. After
this it falls."

So, C/10 is considered a normal charge.

"It is found that a fast charge for NiCd cells also improves charge
efficiency. At a 1C charge rate, the overall charge efficiency of a
standard NiCd is about 90%"

So, 1C is considered a fast charge.

That leaves a trickle charge:
"This trickle charge can be achieved safely by applying a small
current to the cell or cells at a level between about 0.05C and 0.1C."

So, 0.05C and 0.1C are considered a trickle.

Incidentally, my NiCd fast charge testing was mostly done at 10C with
ocassional excursions up to 25C.  Using 800ma-hr AA NiCd cells, 25C is
20Amps charge current. 

--
Jeff Liebermann                 jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272      http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann      AE6KS    831-336-2558


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
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Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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In article <t53ssf$ogt$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

For wired charging, there is no downside to proper fast charging that
charges at a higher rate when the battery is very discharged then
reducing the charge rate as the battery fills.

false.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/12/211202153918.htm
  When a battery is charged too quickly, however, intercalation
  becomes a trickier business. Instead of smoothly getting into the
  graphite, the lithium ions tend to aggregate on top of the anode's
  surface, resulting in a "plating" effect that can cause terminal
  damage -- no pun intended -- to a battery.
....
  "The faster we charge our battery, the more atomically disordered
  the anode will become, which will ultimately prevent the lithium ions
  from being able to move back and forth," Abraham said. "The key
  is to find ways to either prevent this loss of organization or to  
  somehow modify the graphite particles so that the lithium ions can
  intercalate more efficiently."

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/fast-charging-can-damage-elect
ric-car-batteries-in-just-25-cycles>
  Fast-charging of electric batteries can ruin their capacity after
  just 25 charges, researchers have said, after they ran experiments
  on batteries used in some popular electric cars.

....

Here's why. Fast-charging batteries work in two phases. The first phase
applies a blast of voltage to the empty or nearly empty battery. This
gives you that blazing charge of from 50% to 70% in the first 10, 15 or
30 minutes. That's because during the first phase of charging, batteries
can absorb a charge quickly without major negative effects on their
long-term health."

'without major negative effects' is very different than *no* negative
effects.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 20:03:11 -0400
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In article <9t2b7hpv47g0flnoi6uu0uemaupkfkil47@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.

What's a GSF?  All I could find was Golden State Foods.

google services framework


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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In article <er4b7hpdsec422dmgdb3994ft1fplp1n1n@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:07:35 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:
If the choice is only between a) "fast charge at high-current to 100%
capacity" versus b) slow-charge at low current to 100% capacity" then
yes, slow charging is better, but that's not how modern smart phones, or
modern electric vehicles, with lithium-based batteries actually are charged.

True.  Again, we started this discussion with single LiIon cells as
found in smartphones.  It would be nice if your could limit the
discussion to this arrangement.

he's forever moving the goalposts.

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
of one or more cells".  It wasn't always like that, but since
literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
definition.

yep. language evolves.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
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Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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In article <t53pdq$s0q$1@dont-email.me>, Wade Garrett <Wade@cooler.net>
wrote:

And it warms even more if I also rest it on the sticky pad I sometimes
keep on the car's charge pad to prevent the phone from sliding when
turning corners.

slow down!


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Clifford Heath
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: theCubeNet - www.thecubenet.com
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 00:03 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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From: no.s...@please.net (Clifford Heath)
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:03:51 +1000
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On 7/5/22 7:26 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 6 May 2022 17:44:09 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Oops.  Wrong app.  The one I was using is:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.liuzh.deviceinfo

To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.

What's a GSF?  All I could find was Golden State Foods.

GNU Software Foundation perhaps?


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: John McGaw
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Easynews - www.easynews.com
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 00:39 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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<j0697h54tjhs33lpatuvfmpr6gfnjc5ogk@4ax.com> <t52kck$jn2$1@dont-email.me>
<tf5fki-s5d.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>
From: Nob...@Nowh.ere (John McGaw)
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On 5/6/2022 5:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
snip...
Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact. Fast
charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery, therefore fast
charging will reduce the battery life.

It would be nice if when pluging the charger the phone asked whether we want a fast or a slow charge.



Actually, the "adaptive charging" option seems to do that but without asking. Place the phone on the wireless stand after the phone knows that it is "sleepy time" and it will automatically restrict the charge rate to what is needed to have 100% at the next alarm time. It has seemed to work fine for me on my Pixel 6 Pro, anyway. Of course you have to switch the option on in settings before it will know to do that. I'm guessing that this will work with plugged-in charging but I have never really tried and I almost never used wired charging except when in the car on a long road trip.

--
Noli sinere pessimi nequissimique te tristificare!


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: sms
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 01:03 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 18:03:52 -0700
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On 5/6/2022 5:39 PM, John McGaw wrote:
On 5/6/2022 5:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
snip...
Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact. Fast
charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery, therefore fast
charging will reduce the battery life.

It would be nice if when pluging the charger the phone asked whether we want a fast or a slow charge.



Actually, the "adaptive charging" option seems to do that but without asking. Place the phone on the wireless stand after the phone knows that it is "sleepy time" and it will automatically restrict the charge rate to what is needed to have 100% at the next alarm time. It has seemed to work fine for me on my Pixel 6 Pro, anyway. Of course you have to switch the option on in settings before it will know to do that. I'm guessing that this will work with plugged-in charging but I have never really tried and I almost never used wired charging except when in the car on a long road trip.

There's no reason to manually select slow charge or fast charge on recent vintage iPhones or Android phones. The phone automatically sets the charge rate based on the charge level of the battery. There's no down-side to fast charging a battery that has a low amount of charge and then having the charger reduce the power as the battery level increases.

If someone really wants to charge as slow as possible, with a wired charger, you can use a data blocker and the charger will be unable to communicate with the phone and will default to the lowest charge rate, i.e. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082WDHS22 or https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T0DW3F8 For a wireless charger, use one that plugs into a USB-A power adapter and ensure that you're using only a 2.5 watt or 5 watt power adapter.



Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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In article <t54ghq$vhp$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

If someone really wants to charge as slow as possible, with a wired
charger, you can use a data blocker and the charger will be unable to
communicate with the phone and will default to the lowest charge rate,

which will be extremely slow and might even be insufficient to overcome
idle demands of the device because it will be 5V@100ma, or 1/2 watt,
assuming it works at all, since such adapters are non-compliant with
the usb spec.

a better and more practical solution is use a 5w/1a charger, which most
people have.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Andy Burnelli
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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.

What's a GSF?  All I could find was Golden State Foods.

It's worse than that, but just as prevalent in apps you don't want it in.
Can you handle detail, perhaps with a bit of confusion involved on my part?

It's actually difficult to find a _good_ explanation of GSF for you.
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+android+%22google+services+framework

But I just made these two graphics for you to illustrate the general idea:
https://i.postimg.cc/0Q4xmPPR/gsfid01.jpg How to change GSF ID
https://i.postimg.cc/HkTxTWLB/gsfid02.jpg Filter out GSF apps

I'd welcome a better description from someone here than I can find for you.

For example, this sounds innocuous, right?
https://m.apkpure.com/google-services-framework/com.google.android.gsf
 Google Play services framework is used to update Google apps  and apps from Google Play. This component provides core functionality
 like authentication to your Google services, synchronized contacts,  access to all the latest user privacy settings, and higher quality,
 lower-powered location based services. Google Play services framework
 also enhances your app experience. It speeds up offline searches,  provides more immersive maps, and improves gaming experiences.
 Apps may not work if you uninstall Google Play services framework."

This is a completely _different_ description, isn't it, of what GSF is?
https://www.technologitouch.com/tech-tips/what-is-google-services-framework/
 "The Google Services Framework For Android is the foundational program
  for Android smartphones. This application is in charge of all of the
  operating system's services. By utilizing the application's features,
  you will be able to execute any application loaded on your devices   without difficulty. You may experience issues with your device's
  operation while using it."

Here's a stackexchange question on it, but even there, they gloss over what
GSF is and concentrate only on what Google Play Services is instead.
 *What is Google Play Services & Google Services Framework (gapps)?*
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/216176/what-is-the-exact-functionality-of-google-play-services-google-services-framew

If you can find a good description of GSF, I'll be all ears, trust me,
where the _simplest_ way I can explain what I think it is - is that it's a
set of APIs from our good old trustworthy friends at Google that many apps
can link to so that they don't have to write calls for stuff that Google
provides for them. That should make you feel real confident in using apps that use it!
Luckily, the FOSS google play store clients clearly list those apps
as you can see in this snapshot I made moments ago of my Android phone.
https://i.postimg.cc/HkTxTWLB/gsfid02.jpg Filter out GSF apps

The problem is that GSF is sneaky too, since it comes from you know who.
https://i.postimg.cc/X7ZspnsG/gsfid01.jpg I just changed my GSF ID

Personally I prefer to stay away from "SDKs" that other apps link to that
our good old friend Google provides to them, presumably for a reason.

My criteria for apps is no adds and the ability to do at least the one
thing that I need very well.  I don't care about the rest.

I have so many APKs that I install on so many phones that I keep an archive
https://i.postimg.cc/bN875p8b/apk01.jpg 1600 APKs extracted onto Windows

All the FOSS google play store clients have filters for GSF as shown here.
https://i.postimg.cc/W1BwgSpm/aurora14.jpg Filter out GSF apps

You'd be hard pressed to find better apps than the ones I use, e.g.,
say you wanted to know whether your phone was connecting to your unique
femtocell tower ID or you needed to know what your neighbor's Wi-Fi signal
strength is, nicely graphed along with yours with the typical channel
graph, then I'd _start_ with finding a free, ad free, google free, gsf
free, app with usually a 4+ rating and, oh, over a million installations,
and then, if none show up, you slowly open your search criteria... Most of my apps are FOSS but there isn't a switch specifically for that.
For example this ia one of the best FOSS application managers for Android.
https://github.com/MuntashirAkon/AppManager

You can pages upon pages of information for any one given app with that.
https://i.postimg.cc/mgFkM1bs/apk05.jpg Sort by install or last update

Such as Activities, Services, installation date, updates, services,
receivers, providers, app ops, permissions, trackers, versions, features,
configuration, signatures, shared libs, etc.
https://i.postimg.cc/Gt53TdVt/apk06.jpg View every activity in each app

These app managers are useful when you search by installed or updated dates
https://i.postimg.cc/MZPpFmHw/apk07.jpg List by install or update date

And, of course, they give you an idea of the number of trackers in each app
https://i.postimg.cc/L5gnX3GS/linktopc07.jpg List the trackers

What you're looking for is the best app which is also the least intrusive, which, let's be clear, probably takes time to get to know the app well.
https://i.postimg.cc/Gmj8xDYc/intent05.jpg Call apps by intent

But you have to start by finding the best starting point for any
functionality, so, for example, for Wi-Fi/Cellular debuggers, start with
free ad free google free gsf free highly rated often downloaded apps.

An example is this wi-fi debugger which I personally find rather useful.
 *Cellular-Z*, by JerseyHo
 Free, ad free, google free, gsf free, 4+ rating, 100K+ installs
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=make.more.r2d2.cellular_z
https://i.postimg.cc/CKFhMZtS/signal03.jpg Cellular-Z output info

While that's not foolproof of course, it's far better than wading thru this
https://play.google.com/store/search?q=graph%20wi-fi%20signal%20strength&c=apps
https://i.postimg.cc/fLC4zcm6/wifi04.jpg Many signal strength apps

Although for some reason, moving from Android 11 to 12 removed hundreds!

Ummm... How many apps do you have on your Android phone?  See:
  Settings -> Apps and Notifications and look for something like "See all 202 apps".  Mine has 202 apps,
which I consider to be an overdose.

That doesn't really tell you the truth as you can install an app which
won't show up in that list, nor will it show up in the Google Play Update
list (and each of the specific update apps also gives different numbers).
https://i.postimg.cc/j2g26zws/apk03.jpg Google Play Store update apks

I have plenty of tools that can tell me how many "packages" are installed.
https://i.postimg.cc/02jbkHFr/apk04.jpg Sort & display apps how you like

You can sort and view your apps by many methods to keep track of them all.
https://i.postimg.cc/Jhxs4VrD/apk08.jpg Sort by all sorts of criteria

Usually around 700 "packages" but we covered this question in gory detail
in the past on the Android newsgroup where you'd actually be hard pressed
to get _two_ of the many application managers to give the same answer each.
https://i.postimg.cc/02jbkHFr/apk04.jpg Sort & display apps how you like

Since every app installed on Android up until recently was packaged as an
APK, it is easy to _not delete_ the APK after you install each & every app.
https://i.postimg.cc/8zBjX5kJ/aurora09.jpg Count your archived APKs

Click here to read the complete article
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Andy Burnelli
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 03:22 UTC
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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 04:22:37 +0100
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Clifford Heath wrote:

What's a GSF?  All I could find was Golden State Foods.

GNU Software Foundation perhaps?

I apologize for not being clear, where I'm not sure exactly what Google
Services Framework is other than it's a set of APIs that our good friend
Google provides so that apps can link in all sorts of stuff from Google.

If that alone doesn't make you wonder what's inside of it, bear in mind
there's also a (loosely? tightly?) associated _permanent_ unique GSF_ID.

Luckily, after some effort, I figured out a way, using Windows FOSS tools, to replace the GSF ID without too badly affecting the operating system.
https://i.postimg.cc/0Q4xmPPR/gsfid01.jpg I changed the permanent GSF_ID

The main point though is that all the FOSS google play store clients have
an option to filter out the GSF ID (in addition to plenty of other
options), none of which will be in the google play store client itself.
https://i.postimg.cc/YStB48LH/gsfid03.jpg Filter out GSF apps
--
Usenet is a world-wide team sport where purposefully helpful kind-hearted
adults help each other and learn by pooling our individual capabilities.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Andy Burnelli
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 03:42 UTC
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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 04:42:38 +0100
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nospam wrote:

In article <9t2b7hpv47g0flnoi6uu0uemaupkfkil47@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.

What's a GSF?  All I could find was Golden State Foods.

google services framework

You were the first person to tell me about GSF years ago, which I
appreciate since you said (rightly so) that it's getting harder over time
to find apps that don't incorporate these Google calls into their code.

I'm not ashamed to admit I don't know how exactly the GSF code deals with
the supposedly permanent unique GSF ID but that may be why my Android 11 to
Android 12 upgrade deleted hundreds of apps (perhaps they're linked to the
old GSF ID.. dunno... it's too many to be simply that as I only figured out
how to change the GSF_ID recently).

BTW, if others are interested in looking at your permanent unique GSF ID,
this is the app I used to make sure that my experiments actually changed it
 *Device ID* by Evozi
 Free, ad free, Google free, GSF free, rated 4.5, 1M+ installs
  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.evozi.deviceid

Note as someone already noted, many apps have the same names in the repos
https://play.google.com/store/search?q=device+id

Without filters in the FOSS Google Play Store clients, I don't know how
anyone can find decent apps given they frequently use similar names, icons,
and descriptions - and yet - many have ads and many incorporate GSF calls.
https://auroraoss.com/
--
Usenet is a team sport where each person adds unique value as they see fit.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Andy Burnelli
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 04:31 UTC
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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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Jeff Liebermann wrote:

No, it's not.  I guess I should be more specific.  I would like to
know why you find it necessary to test a LiIon cell in a charge range
of zero to 20%, where literally every recommendation by the
manufacturers declare that to be an RBI (really bad idea)? 

I _know_ it's a really bad idea, which is _why_ I want to see what happens. I got a handful of these phones for free, so I have _plenty_ to work with.
It's just a phone. Phones are a dime a dozen. They're a commodity.

This is a Samsung Galaxy A32-5G, which, even if I paid for it, is cheap.

People do drop tests all the time, don't they?
That's a really bad idea too. :)

Looks that
specs for any BMS (battery management system) found inside most LiIon
battery packs.  There is a feature that literally disconnects the cell
if the terminal voltage goes below some value which usually works out
to about 20% charge.  Maybe this will help you understand the problem
you're creating for yourself:
"Lithium Ion Cell Operating Window"
https://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm
Notice that the "operating area" is between 20% and 90% SOC.

I designed microcontroller-based batter chargers as experimental tools back
in the 80's in graduate school but it has been a long time since then.

I've probably forgotten more than I learned by then, but my main point is
that I consider all smartphones merely a tool to play with to learn about.

If you don't do destructive testing, you won't learn as much as if you do.
(As an aside, you should see the destructive testing I did on the iPad!)

I take risks with the mobile devices all the time in order to learn more.

For example, I recently figured out a way to change my supposedly permanent
supposedly unique Google-supplied GSF ID, which may be the reason that
the Android 11 to Android 12 update on my Samsung deleted hundreds of apps.
 *Have you ever tried to CHANGE your unique GSF ID on your Android device?*
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/Ixl2uMSLADc

So it's not just me who is curious what happens in the real world.

Yes, but you are not the entire real world.  Your currently
undisclosed operating criteria is not the same as every user and
certainly not the same as the cell phone manufacturer.  The
manufacturer wants big numbers because big number sell phones.
Whatever it takes to produce big numbers balanced by cost and safety
issues.  Big numbers are rather useless if the phone catches fire in
the owners pocket.  So, the game of battery specmanship degenerates
into squeezing as many watt-hours out of the battery as possible by
any means deemed economical (and maybe reliable).  Do it wrong, and
you have a situation like Apple, where the phone had to be slowed down
to produce a reasonable runtime as the battery aged.  At that point,
the user gets involved and tries to squeeze out as much power as
possible.  However, they can't because the manufacturer has already
done that with a complexicated BMS algorithm.  So the user looks to
see what can be gained by breaking the safety rules.  Good luck.  If
you are actually able to run the phone at extremely low SOC, then the
manufacturer has screwed up and is selling an unsafe phone, battery,
or both.  What phone and battery are you using and I'll be sure to
blacklist it.

It's the Samsung Galaxy A32-5G and it's the T-Mobile model SM A326U.

You'll see some of my experiments on the XDA Developers' forum:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/samsung-galaxy-a32-5g.12145/

I've always been curious about the best way to do almost any thing.
And destructive testing is a fantastic way to figure out what really
happens in the real world under real world conditions, even as you can't
hope to run a "consumers report" style full-fledged scientific
investigation with basic home equipment.

Please note my domain name, LearnByDestroying.com.  The intent is
slightly different from yours.  It's my contention that one does not
understand how something works without first breaking it, and
subsequently fixing it.  Destructive testing, without subsequent
understanding (and enlightenment) is useless.

Like you appear to do, I try to learn why things fail when they fail.

For my BMW, a lot of parts break, where I take them apart to find what
caused the failure, whether that's the FSU or the expansion tank.

You can't put that stuff back together, although I did try to reseat the
myriad "angel hair" wires inside the ABS control module, which are just
impossible to do without specialized machines.

Having said that, my cars are decades old where I fix everything I can,
even to the point of mounting and balancing my own tires at home, so if I
_can_ fix it after taking it apart, I will fix it after taking it apart.
https://i.postimg.cc/zvvyL2tq/mount24.jpg Analyze the wear  https://i.postimg.cc/X7hcV3ps/mount26.jpg Keep close track of wear
https://i.postimg.cc/63Kc80x9/mount29.jpg Watch wear over time
https://i.postimg.cc/wTf1xnzJ/mount36.jpg Inspect root causes
https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg Run experiments
https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg Gather more data
https://i.postimg.cc/G3HWPtQg/mount39.jpg Test your assumptions
https://i.postimg.cc/8zVxVHVx/mount40.jpg ID engineering principles
https://i.postimg.cc/YqHVb5gY/mount33.jpg Fix root cause
https://i.postimg.cc/DwnjgJY3/mount08.jpg Buy a new tire
https://i.postimg.cc/FKfFwJ25/mount48.jpg Break the bead
https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg Replace the valve
https://i.postimg.cc/WzZW9MvT/mount07.jpg Mount the tire
https://i.postimg.cc/28JK2bFB/mount58.jpg Balance the wheel
https://i.postimg.cc/0NGXktgp/mount59.jpg Recycle the carcass

Bear in mind it's difficult to find out why some wear patterns happen
simply because they are on perfectly well aligned vehicles sometimes.
https://www.quora.com/When-turning-I-see-there-is-a-plus-camber-in-a-vehicle-Why

Still... I try to learn... and destructive testing is part of learning.

It's a tiny part but admittedly the fun part.  It's lots of fun to
blow things up.  It's less fun, but more educational to understand how
the device you just destroyed functions.  When you destroy something
(like your phone battery), do you take or record measurements?  Do you
record a video for an instant replay?  Have you worked out in advance
what you expect to happen?  Do you look for anomalies?  Do you own a
data logger?  How would blowing up a cell phone battery demonstrate
anything if you don't know at what voltage (or SOC) and temperature it
blew up?  Did you put a plastic bag over the phone to capture any
gasses (and flying glass) produced?  Do you have a new battery or
phone available for comparisons?  Without these, all you've "learned"
is how to blow up a battery or phone.

I can't disagree with anything you've said as I run experiments all day
every day, some of which are detailed (like those tire experiments) and
others aren't as detailed (as my phone battery experiments are).

When I was a kid, my dad kept a box of old "stuff" for me to take apart.

Hint:  I still act like I'm kid.  I even take things apart BEFORE I
try operating them.

The one thing really convenient about destructive autopsies is you don't
have to put anything back together. You just put it in the recycling bin.

Why does anyone run any experiment?

Usually because they are suspicious of the established theories of
operation and have reason to suspect that parts of the theories are
wrong or badly understood.

Notice the tire experiments above where there is precious little
information on the Internet why all the cars that are perfectly aligned in
any given twisty road area wear the tires the exact same abnormal way.

Take a look at the Scotty Kilmer video below, and note particularly that
the photos I've been posting (which I've posted for years) are the _same_
as in Scotty Kilmer's videos (just look and you'll recognize my pictures!).

Click here to read the complete article
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: sms
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:02 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 07:02:01 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On 5/6/2022 10:07 AM, sms wrote:

<snip>

If the choice is only between a) "fast charge at high-current to 100% capacity" versus b) slow-charge at low current to 100% capacity" then yes, slow charging is better, but that's not how modern smart phones, or modern electric vehicles, with lithium-based batteries actually are charged.

One other thing, which could be good or bad depending on your point of view, is that for iPhones that are capable of fast charging, if you turn the phone off _after_ the phone is plugged into a USB-C PC charger. then the charge rate goes down (on the iPhone, if the phone is off and a charger is plugged in then the phone automatically turns on so you must turn it off _after_ the charger is plugged in).

On my iPhone, with the phone on the battery begins charging at around 18W (9V@2a) then falls to about 10W (9V@1.15A) as the battery charges; with the phone off, it charges at about 10W (5.1V@2A) then falls to about 5.5W (5.1@1.08A).

With a USB-C PD charger, it takes _longer_ to charge an iPhone is the power is off since the voltage never goes above the nominal 5V, yet current is always limited to a nominal 2A. This is because the PMIC inside the iPhone can't negotiate the USB-C PD charge rate when the phone is off. On an Android phone, at least phones with Qualcomm Snapdragon chipsets, QC charge rates are unaffected by the phone being on or off.

Also, on the iPhone, unlike on Android devices, there is no indication as to whether or not the phone is fast charging. Someone could be using a junky, USB-C to Lightning cable, that they don't realize does not support fast charging, but think that their phone is fast charging. You need to plug in a USB-C to USB-C power meter between the USB-C PD charger and the iPhone to see the charge rate.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: nospam
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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References: <t510ud$2t9$1@gioia.aioe.org> <j0697h54tjhs33lpatuvfmpr6gfnjc5ogk@4ax.com> <t52kck$jn2$1@dont-email.me> <mlca7hhu6nv6gebabell11msgitn8rkneo@4ax.com> <t53kkp$kjq$1@dont-email.me> <t55u4r$8u3$1@dont-email.me>
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In article <t55u4r$8u3$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

Also, on the iPhone, unlike on Android devices, there is no indication
as to whether or not the phone is fast charging. Someone could be using
a junky, USB-C to Lightning cable, that they don't realize does not
support fast charging, but think that their phone is fast charging.

that is false. it's very easy to tell if it's fast charging.

You
need to plug in a USB-C to USB-C power meter between the USB-C PD
charger and the iPhone to see the charge rate.

there is no such need.


Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
From: Chris
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android, sci.electronics.repair
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:43 UTC
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From: ithink...@gmail.com (Chris)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently
- checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:43:34 -0000 (UTC)
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Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

Drivel:
One mouse, two mice.
One house, two hice?

An upper class english accent pronounces a house as "hice". English is a
bastard language with so many accents and vernaculars that it's pointless
arguing over what is "correct".


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