On 1/7/2022 2:46 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-01-07, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> Some people may prefer to have the computer do as much of the work as possible.
>> While you may prefer something like Ada, many do not agree with you.
>
> When you are writing critical applications, you don't take the
> quick approach but you take the robust approach.

True.

But realize that:

number applications where errors can result in people to die < number
applications where errors can result in loss of money < number
applications where errors can result in inconvenience/embarrassment

Arne

On 1/7/2022 2:50 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-01-07, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> ...
>> HPE said: ?The backup script includes a find command to delete log files
>> older than 10 days. In addition to functional improvement of the script,
>> the variable name passed to the find command for deletion was changed to
>> improve visibility and readability.?
>> ...
>> The company added: ?However, there was a lack of consideration in the
>> release procedure of this modified script. We were not aware of the side
>> effects of this behavior and released the [updated] script, overwriting
>> [a bash script] while it was still running,? HPE admitted. ?This
>> resulted in the reloading of the modified shell script in the middle of
>> the execution, resulting in undefined variables. As a result, the
>> original log files in /LARGE0 [backup disc storage] were deleted instead
>> of the original process of deleting files saved in the log directory.?
>
> There is absolutely no excuse for that disaster whatsoever.
>
> Bash has a setting that stops execution of a script when an undefined
> variable is encountered. I know this because it is at the top of every
> single bash script that I write.

set -u

?

Arne

On 1/7/2022 2:03 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 1/7/2022 1:57 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-01-06, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 1/6/2022 10:46 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> One may not like MUMPS and its variants.
>>>
>>> For those with an strong desire to try MUMPS aka M on VMS, then:
>>>
>>> https://sourceforge.net/projects/fis-gtm/files/GT.M-Alpha-OpenVMS/V6.2-001/
>>
>> After a 5-minute read of the Mumps language syntax, I have come to
>> the conclusion that it makes TECO look user-friendly. :-)
>>
>> The total of my Mumps knowledge has been acquired over the last few
>> minutes and is based on the following:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS#Summary_of_key_language_features
>>
>> I really don't like the dynamic nature of variables and the dynamic
>> way they are created when first referenced. It makes Mumps look more
>> like a scripting language than an application programming language.
>
> Some people may prefer to have the computer do as much of the work as
> possible. While you may prefer something like Ada, many do not agree
> with you.

General expressiveness of programming language aka ability to express
the logic in minimal code (low LoC/FP ratio) and robustness of
programming languages aka ability to catch errors at compile time
instead of runtime are rather independent.

Arne

I think one of the aspects of MUmPhs that buggers newbs is that it's one of the few languages implementing content addressable memory, even to secondary storage. I've professionally written REXX, which is the only other such language. I'm sure there are others.
If anyone else has experience with real-time laboratory data acquisition in a clinical setting, I'm all ears. Otherwise, there are few languages up to the task. Unfortunately, it's also a write-only language.

plugh <jchimene@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think one of the aspects of MUmPhs that buggers newbs is that it's one of=
> the few languages implementing content addressable memory, even to seconda=
>ry storage. I've professionally written REXX, which is the only other such =
>language. I'm sure there are others.

It's actually become a popular thing recently, with hashes being implemented
in perl and python as standard data structures. Not as extensive or
transparent as in Mumps, mind you.

> If anyone else has experience with real-time laboratory data acquisition i=
>n a clinical setting, I'm all ears. Otherwise, there are few languages up t=
>o the task. Unfortunately, it's also a write-only language.

We do plenty of that in C and for a long time we did a lot in HP BASIC which
was sort of optimized for instrument control. These days a lot of things
that would get custom software get done with labview, though. Or HP's answer
to labview, VEE.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 1/8/2022 1:40 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> plugh <jchimene@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think one of the aspects of MUmPhs that buggers newbs is that it's one of=
>> the few languages implementing content addressable memory, even to seconda=
>> ry storage. I've professionally written REXX, which is the only other such =
>> language. I'm sure there are others.
>
> It's actually become a popular thing recently, with hashes being implemented
> in perl and python as standard data structures. Not as extensive or
> transparent as in Mumps, mind you.

In memory hashtables/hashmaps/dictionaries/associative arrays are a
standard feature in most newer languages.

Index-sequential files/NoSQL Key Value Stores are also common across
technologies.

The combination is not common. Even though I guess that languages
that allow overloading of indexing operator could do something
similar under the hood.

Arne

On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 12:59:12 PM UTC-7, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/8/2022 1:40 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > plugh <jchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I think one of the aspects of MUmPhs that buggers newbs is that it's one of=
> >> the few languages implementing content addressable memory, even to seconda=
> >> ry storage. I've professionally written REXX, which is the only other such =
> >> language. I'm sure there are others.
> >
> > It's actually become a popular thing recently, with hashes being implemented
> > in perl and python as standard data structures. Not as extensive or
> > transparent as in Mumps, mind you.
> In memory hashtables/hashmaps/dictionaries/associative arrays are a
> standard feature in most newer languages.
>
> Index-sequential files/NoSQL Key Value Stores are also common across
> technologies.
>
> The combination is not common. Even though I guess that languages
> that allow overloading of indexing operator could do something
> similar under the hood.
>
> Arne

Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference is storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I namechecked REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:18:22 -0800, plugh wrote:

> Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to
> call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference is
> storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I namechecked
> REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.

I use REXX quite a bit, and I use that facility a lot too.

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On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 2:23:11 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:18:22 -0800, plugh wrote:
>
> > Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to
> > call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference is
> > storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I namechecked
> > REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.
> I use REXX quite a bit, and I use that facility a lot too.

Did it ever get to VMS? It would've been a nice replacement for DCL.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 13:30:48 -0800, plugh wrote:

> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 2:23:11 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:18:22 -0800, plugh wrote:
>>
>> > Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to
>> > call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference
>> > is storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I
>> > namechecked REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.
>> I use REXX quite a bit, and I use that facility a lot too.
>
> Did it ever get to VMS? It would've been a nice replacement for DCL.

There is a version of Regina which is reputed to work; Test on 6.1 and
6.2, with some minor limitations.

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On 1/8/22 2:18 PM, plugh wrote:
> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 12:59:12 PM UTC-7, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 1/8/2022 1:40 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> plugh <jchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I think one of the aspects of MUmPhs that buggers newbs is that it's one of=
>>>> the few languages implementing content addressable memory, even to seconda=
>>>> ry storage. I've professionally written REXX, which is the only other such =
>>>> language. I'm sure there are others.
>>>
>>> It's actually become a popular thing recently, with hashes being implemented
>>> in perl and python as standard data structures. Not as extensive or
>>> transparent as in Mumps, mind you.
>> In memory hashtables/hashmaps/dictionaries/associative arrays are a
>> standard feature in most newer languages.
>>
>> Index-sequential files/NoSQL Key Value Stores are also common across
>> technologies.
>>
>> The combination is not common. Even though I guess that languages
>> that allow overloading of indexing operator could do something
>> similar under the hood.
>>
>> Arne
>
> Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to
> call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference
> is storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I
> namechecked REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.

I have no idea what "stem-and-list CAM" is, but Perl provides the
ability to tie hashes to a file so that accessing hash elements accesses
file contents. With the VMS::IndexedFile extension you can also get one
hash per index and just access the records by accessing the hash.

On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 11:14:32 AM UTC-7, Craig A. Berry wrote:
> On 1/8/22 2:18 PM, plugh wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 12:59:12 PM UTC-7, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 1/8/2022 1:40 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >>> plugh <jchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I think one of the aspects of MUmPhs that buggers newbs is that it's one of=
> >>>> the few languages implementing content addressable memory, even to seconda=
> >>>> ry storage. I've professionally written REXX, which is the only other such =
> >>>> language. I'm sure there are others.
> >>>
> >>> It's actually become a popular thing recently, with hashes being implemented
> >>> in perl and python as standard data structures. Not as extensive or
> >>> transparent as in Mumps, mind you.
> >> In memory hashtables/hashmaps/dictionaries/associative arrays are a
> >> standard feature in most newer languages.
> >>
> >> Index-sequential files/NoSQL Key Value Stores are also common across
> >> technologies.
> >>
> >> The combination is not common. Even though I guess that languages
> >> that allow overloading of indexing operator could do something
> >> similar under the hood.
> >>
> >> Arne
> >
> > Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to
> > call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference
> > is storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I
> > namechecked REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.
> I have no idea what "stem-and-list CAM" is,

Neither do I, probably because it doesn't exist. I should've written
"stem and leaf"

Anyway.

> but Perl provides the
> ability to tie hashes to a file so that accessing hash elements accesses
> file contents. With the VMS::IndexedFile extension you can also get one
> hash per index and just access the records by accessing the hash.

It's not quite the same thing, maybe it is in some senses.

We used (still do?) this in DCL via concatenating symbols with periods during lexical parsing, so that the subsequent evaluation step yielded a value. I think some people implemented arrays using this trick.

Perl sort of does this with hashes, and I'm pretty sure you can get something workable with arrays. It's foolish to disagree, of course, since TMTOWTDI
I have to admit I've never tried stem-and-leaf storage in Perl.

On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 12:14:28 -0600, Craig A. Berry wrote:

>> Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to
>> call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference is
>> storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I namechecked
>> REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.
>
> I have no idea what "stem-and-list CAM" is,

Probably 'stem and leaf'. CAM is 'content addressable memory'.

In REXX, for example, you can have a variable of the form:

abc.def

abc is the stem and def is the leaf. Not very good terminology in REXX,
because you can extend that to abc.def.ghi.jkl etc...

So you can have abc.1, abc.2, abc.3, which gives you conventional arrays.
Obviously the leaf part can be a variable. But that variable doesn't have
to contain a number; it can be a string, for example. So:

x = "Smith"

dict.x = "Smith's details"

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On 1/9/2022 5:32 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 13:30:48 -0800, plugh wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 2:23:11 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:18:22 -0800, plugh wrote:
>>>
>>>> Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like to
>>>> call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The difference
>>>> is storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's why I
>>>> namechecked REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.
>>> I use REXX quite a bit, and I use that facility a lot too.
>>
>> Did it ever get to VMS? It would've been a nice replacement for DCL.
>
> There is a version of Regina which is reputed to work; Test on 6.1 and
> 6.2, with some minor limitations.

Latest (regina394.zip)

update descrip.mms:

/DEFINE=(VMS,HAVE_DIV,HAVE_ARPA_INET_H)
->
/DEFINE=(VMS,HAVE_DIV,HAVE_ARPA_INET_H,REGINA_VERSION_MAJOR="""3""",REGINA_VERSION_MINOR="""9""",REGINA_VERSION_SUPP="""""",REGINA_VERSION_RELEASE="""4""",REGINA_BITS="""64""",REGINA_VERSION_DATE="""-""")

OBJ9=vmsfuncs.obj,vmscmd.obj,variable.obj,wrappers.obj,yaccsrc.obj,alloca.obj,arxfuncs.obj
->
OBJ9=vmsfuncs.obj,vmscmd.obj,variable.obj,wrappers.obj,yaccsrc.obj,alloca.obj,arxfuncs.obj,mygetopt.obj,os_other.obj

mygetopt.obj : mygetopt.c
@ write sys$output ""
@ write sys$output "Compiling $(MMS$SOURCE) "
$(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(MMS$SOURCE)
@ write sys$output "Done (compiling)."
os_other.obj : os_other.c
@ write sys$output ""
@ write sys$output "Compiling $(MMS$SOURCE) "
$(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(MMS$SOURCE)
@ write sys$output "Done (compiling)."

update vmsfuncs.c:

str_digitize( TSD, temp, 0, 1 , "", 0)
->
str_digitize( TSD, temp, 0, 1 )

update os_other.c:

#if defined(MAC) || defined(GO32) || defined (__EMX__) ||
(defined(__WATCOMC__) && !defined(__QNX__)) || defined(_MSC_VER) ||
defined(DJGPP) || defined(__CYGWIN32__) || defined(__BORLANDC__) ||
defined(__MINGW32__) || defined(__WINS__) || defined(__EPOC32__)
||defined(__LCC__)
->
#if defined(MAC) || defined(GO32) || defined (__EMX__) ||
(defined(__WATCOMC__) && !defined(__QNX__)) || defined(_MSC_VER) ||
defined(DJGPP) || defined(__CYGWIN32__) || defined(__BORLANDC__) ||
defined(__MINGW32__) || defined(__WINS__) || defined(__EPOC32__)
||defined(__LCC__) || defined(VMS)

# elif defined(VMS)
# define ISTR_SLASH "/"
# define I_SLASH '/'

# if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
!defined(__CYGWIN__)
->
# if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
!defined(__CYGWIN__) && !defined(VMS)

And I get a REXX.EXE.

Unfortunately I cannot test it because I don't know REXX.

Arne

On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 19:58:48 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> On 1/9/2022 5:32 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 13:30:48 -0800, plugh wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 2:23:11 PM UTC-7, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:18:22 -0800, plugh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Very true. I should've been clearer when referencing CAM. I'd like
>>>>> to call out stem-and-list CAM as opposed to hashing &c. The
>>>>> difference is storage organization around paths, not nodes. That's
>>>>> why I namechecked REXX. I'm quite sure perl could do that as well.
>>>> I use REXX quite a bit, and I use that facility a lot too.
>>>
>>> Did it ever get to VMS? It would've been a nice replacement for DCL.
>>
>> There is a version of Regina which is reputed to work; Test on 6.1 and
>> 6.2, with some minor limitations.
>
> Latest (regina394.zip)
>
> update descrip.mms:
>
> /DEFINE=(VMS,HAVE_DIV,HAVE_ARPA_INET_H)
> ->
> /
DEFINE=(VMS,HAVE_DIV,HAVE_ARPA_INET_H,REGINA_VERSION_MAJOR="""3""",REGINA_VERSION_MINOR="""9""",REGINA_VERSION_SUPP="""""",REGINA_VERSION_RELEASE="""4""",REGINA_BITS="""64""",REGINA_VERSION_DATE="""-""")
>
>
OBJ9=vmsfuncs.obj,vmscmd.obj,variable.obj,wrappers.obj,yaccsrc.obj,alloca.obj,arxfuncs.obj
> ->
>
OBJ9=vmsfuncs.obj,vmscmd.obj,variable.obj,wrappers.obj,yaccsrc.obj,alloca.obj,arxfuncs.obj,mygetopt.obj,os_other.obj
>
> mygetopt.obj : mygetopt.c
> @ write sys$output ""
> @ write sys$output "Compiling $(MMS$SOURCE) "
> $(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(MMS$SOURCE)
> @ write sys$output "Done (compiling)."
> os_other.obj : os_other.c
> @ write sys$output ""
> @ write sys$output "Compiling $(MMS$SOURCE) "
> $(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(MMS$SOURCE)
> @ write sys$output "Done (compiling)."
>
> update vmsfuncs.c:
>
> str_digitize( TSD, temp, 0, 1 , "", 0)
> ->
> str_digitize( TSD, temp, 0, 1 )
>
> update os_other.c:
>
> #if defined(MAC) || defined(GO32) || defined (__EMX__) ||
> (defined(__WATCOMC__) && !defined(__QNX__)) || defined(_MSC_VER) ||
> defined(DJGPP) || defined(__CYGWIN32__) || defined(__BORLANDC__) ||
> defined(__MINGW32__) || defined(__WINS__) || defined(__EPOC32__)
> ||defined(__LCC__)
> ->
> #if defined(MAC) || defined(GO32) || defined (__EMX__) ||
> (defined(__WATCOMC__) && !defined(__QNX__)) || defined(_MSC_VER) ||
> defined(DJGPP) || defined(__CYGWIN32__) || defined(__BORLANDC__) ||
> defined(__MINGW32__) || defined(__WINS__) || defined(__EPOC32__)
> ||defined(__LCC__) || defined(VMS)
>
> # elif defined(VMS)
> # define ISTR_SLASH "/"
> # define I_SLASH '/'
>
> # if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
> !defined(__CYGWIN__)
> ->
> # if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
> !defined(__CYGWIN__) && !defined(VMS)
>
> And I get a REXX.EXE.
>
> Unfortunately I cannot test it because I don't know REXX.

Easy test. Feed it:

say 'Hello, world'

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On 1/9/22 6:58 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> # if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
> !defined(__CYGWIN__)
> ->
> # if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
> !defined(__CYGWIN__) && !defined(VMS)

You'll want to use __VMS rather than VMS for anything that is not VAX C.
I can't remember the details offhand, but I believe there are compiler
modes that require the standards-compliant version of the macro, and the
C++ compiler does not define "VMS".

On 1/10/2022 4:31 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 19:58:48 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> And I get a REXX.EXE.
>>
>> Unfortunately I cannot test it because I don't know REXX.
>
> Easy test. Feed it:
>
> say 'Hello, world'

That works.

$ type bob.rexx
say 'Hello, world'
$ mcr []rexx bob.rexx
Hello, world

The little test program that it comes with also works:

$ typ [.demo]testvms.rexx
/*
* Test program for Regina 3.3
*
* This program tests the OpenVMS specific BIFs.
*
*/
Trace o
Say
Say 'Name of the my current disk:' f$getdvi("sys$disk:", 'volnam')
Say 'My own pid:' f$getjpi("0","pid")
Say Begin of external command
dir '*.cxx'
Say end of external command
Return 0
$ mcr []rexx [.demo]testvms.rexx

Name of the my current disk: DISK2
My own pid: 0000043E
BEGIN OF EXTERNAL COMMAND
%DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found
END OF EXTERNAL COMMAND

Arne

On 1/10/2022 7:34 AM, Craig A. Berry wrote:
> On 1/9/22 6:58 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> # if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
>> !defined(__CYGWIN__)
>> ->
>> # if !defined(MAC) && !defined(__WINS__) && !defined(__EPOC32__) &&
>> !defined(__CYGWIN__) && !defined(VMS)
>
> You'll want to use __VMS rather than VMS for anything that is not VAX C.
>  I can't remember the details offhand, but I believe there are compiler
> modes that require the standards-compliant version of the macro, and the
> C++ compiler does not define "VMS".

I think this is old code.

It use:
#ifdef VMS
#if ... defined(VMS)

all over and DECSRIP.MMS has:

..../DEFINE=(VMS, ...

Arne

On 1/10/22 8:34 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/10/2022 4:31 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 19:58:48 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> And I get a REXX.EXE.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I cannot test it because I don't know REXX.
>>
>> Easy test. Feed it:
>>
>>    say 'Hello, world'
>
> That works.
>
> $ type bob.rexx
> say 'Hello, world'
> $ mcr []rexx bob.rexx
> Hello, world
>
> The little test program that it comes with also works:
>
> $ typ [.demo]testvms.rexx
> /*
>  * Test program for Regina 3.3
>  *
>  * This program tests the OpenVMS specific BIFs.
>  *
>  */
> Trace o
> Say
> Say 'Name of the my current disk:' f$getdvi("sys$disk:", 'volnam')
> Say 'My own pid:' f$getjpi("0","pid")
> Say Begin of external command
> dir '*.cxx'
> Say end of external command
> Return 0
> $ mcr []rexx [.demo]testvms.rexx
>
> Name of the my current disk: DISK2
> My own pid: 0000043E
> BEGIN OF EXTERNAL COMMAND
> %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found
> END OF EXTERNAL COMMAND
>

If you want a more detailed test, Rosetta Code has a bunch of REXX
examples.

bill

On 2022-01-07, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 1/7/2022 2:46 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2022-01-07, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some people may prefer to have the computer do as much of the work as possible.
>>> While you may prefer something like Ada, many do not agree with you.
>>>
>>
>> When you are writing critical applications, you don't take the
>> quick approach but you take the robust approach.
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>
> Are you implying that computers cannot be robust?
>

Please see the HPE caused disaster that Arne has posted.

That should never have happened and based on what has been posted
would not have happened if a simple bash switch had been turned on.

Unfortunately, it looks like someone took the quick approach
when developing that script. Given how critical it was that script
worked correctly, it should have been designed with a robustness
first mindset and should have been reviewed to allow suggestions for
how to make the script as robust as possible.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2022-01-07, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 1/7/2022 2:50 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> There is absolutely no excuse for that disaster whatsoever.
>>
>> Bash has a setting that stops execution of a script when an undefined
>> variable is encountered. I know this because it is at the top of every
>> single bash script that I write.
>
> set -u
>
> ?
>

Yes. That should be a standard setting for scripts as critical as that
one was.

I wonder if the changes were even reviewed before being deployed ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 1/10/2022 12:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 1/10/22 8:34 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 1/10/2022 4:31 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 19:58:48 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> And I get a REXX.EXE.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately I cannot test it because I don't know REXX.
>>>
>>> Easy test. Feed it:
>>>
>>>    say 'Hello, world'
>>
>> That works.
>>
>> $ type bob.rexx
>> say 'Hello, world'
>> $ mcr []rexx bob.rexx
>> Hello, world
>>
>> The little test program that it comes with also works:
>>
>> $ typ [.demo]testvms.rexx
>> /*
>>   * Test program for Regina 3.3
>>   *
>>   * This program tests the OpenVMS specific BIFs.
>>   *
>>   */
>> Trace o
>> Say
>> Say 'Name of the my current disk:' f$getdvi("sys$disk:", 'volnam')
>> Say 'My own pid:' f$getjpi("0","pid")
>> Say Begin of external command
>> dir '*.cxx'
>> Say end of external command
>> Return 0
>> $ mcr []rexx [.demo]testvms.rexx
>>
>> Name of the my current disk: DISK2
>> My own pid: 0000043E
>> BEGIN OF EXTERNAL COMMAND
>> %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found
>> END OF EXTERNAL COMMAND
>>
>
> If you want a more detailed test, Rosetta Code has a bunch of REXX
> examples.

There are also more examples in the regina kit.

But I can't necessarily tell whether they work
or not and if they don't work whether it is a general
regina problem or a VMS regina problem.

This looks like it works:

$ typ [.demo]block.rexx
#!/usr/bin/env regina
/* This program is block structured ! */
/* Author unknown - ported to REXX from ND Fortran by */
/* Anders Christensen -- anders@solan.unit.no */

signal=(interpret=value);value=(interpret<parse);do upper=value to value
end;exit=upper*upper*upper*upper-value-upper;say=' ';return=say say say;
with.=signal;;do then=value to exit;pull='';do otherwise=upper to then-,
value;select=otherwise-value;if.otherwise=with.otherwise+with.select;end
if.value=value;if.then=value;;do otherwise=value to exit-then;pull=pull,
say''say;;end;do otherwise=value to then;pull=pull center(if.otherwise,,
length(return));end;say pull;do otherwise=value to exit;with.otherwise=,
if.otherwise;end;end;exit

$ mcr []rexx [.demo]block.rexx
1
1 1
1 2 1
1 3 3 1
1 4 6 4 1
1 5 10 10 5 1
1 6 15 20 15 6 1
1 7 21 35 35 21 7 1
1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1
1 9 36 84 126 126 84 36 9 1
1 10 45 120 210 252 210 120 45 10 1
1 11 55 165 330 462 462 330 165 55 11 1
1 12 66 220 495 792 924 792 495 220 66 12
1

But I hope this code is not how REXX is intended to be written.

:-)

Arne

On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 12:41:32 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> On 1/10/22 8:34 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 1/10/2022 4:31 AM, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sun, 09 Jan 2022 19:58:48 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> And I get a REXX.EXE.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately I cannot test it because I don't know REXX.
>>>
>>> Easy test. Feed it:
>>>
>>>    say 'Hello, world'
>>
>> That works.
>>
>> $ type bob.rexx say 'Hello, world'
>> $ mcr []rexx bob.rexx Hello, world
>>
>> The little test program that it comes with also works:
>>
>> $ typ [.demo]testvms.rexx /*
>>  * Test program for Regina 3.3 *
>>  * This program tests the OpenVMS specific BIFs.
>>  *
>>  */
>> Trace o Say Say 'Name of the my current disk:' f$getdvi("sys$disk:",
>> 'volnam')
>> Say 'My own pid:' f$getjpi("0","pid")
>> Say Begin of external command dir '*.cxx'
>> Say end of external command Return 0 $ mcr []rexx [.demo]testvms.rexx
>>
>> Name of the my current disk: DISK2 My own pid: 0000043E BEGIN OF
>> EXTERNAL COMMAND %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found END OF EXTERNAL
>> COMMAND
>>
>>
> If you want a more detailed test, Rosetta Code has a bunch of REXX
> examples.

I don't *think* I did anything on there, althiugh I know you did, Bill.

But I did most of the pages on ML/I !

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On 1/10/2022 1:16 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-01-07, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> On 1/7/2022 2:46 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2022-01-07, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some people may prefer to have the computer do as much of the work as possible.
>>>> While you may prefer something like Ada, many do not agree with you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> When you are writing critical applications, you don't take the
>>> quick approach but you take the robust approach.
>>>
>>> Simon.
>>>
>>
>> Are you implying that computers cannot be robust?
>>
>
> Please see the HPE caused disaster that Arne has posted.
>
> That should never have happened and based on what has been posted
> would not have happened if a simple bash switch had been turned on.
>
> Unfortunately, it looks like someone took the quick approach
> when developing that script. Given how critical it was that script
> worked correctly, it should have been designed with a robustness
> first mindset and should have been reviewed to allow suggestions for
> how to make the script as robust as possible.
>
> Simon.
>

I agree with you, but, poor programming and mistakes can happen in any language.

It is up to the programmer to do his/her job.

Yes, the tools could be better. An example.

Basic will produce a compiler listing with all kinds of information. I have
written programs to evaluate those listings. One such task is to attempt to
identify variables that are not set, or referenced only once, and such. What
I've asked myself is, if the compiler has all that information, why doesn't it
do the job that I've done. It surely could tell me to look at some possible
trouble spots.

Yes, the tools could always be better.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 1/10/2022 1:18 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-01-07, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 1/7/2022 2:50 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> There is absolutely no excuse for that disaster whatsoever.
>>>
>>> Bash has a setting that stops execution of a script when an undefined
>>> variable is encountered. I know this because it is at the top of every
>>> single bash script that I write.
>>
>> set -u
>>
>> ?
>>
>
> Yes. That should be a standard setting for scripts as critical as that
> one was.
>
> I wonder if the changes were even reviewed before being deployed ?
>
> Simon.
>

Sometimes I think over half of my code is condition handling ...

:-)

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486