Okay, so the first part of this thread was a lot more popular than I
expected. Was it nostalgia? The joy of learning about forgotten games?
Who knows, but let's do it again and see if lightning strikes twice.

This time, we're surveying classic games released to IBM PC
compatibles released during the ten-year period between 1993 and 2002,
which is seen by many as the golden age of PC gaming. It was /SO/ hard
to limit myself to just TWO games per year for this period! Games
which had a huge impact on the industry - either from sales or
originality or just because they predicted the direction the hobby was
moving - got higher priority, but I left SO many classics off this
list, it hurt. Feel free to tell me what an idiot I am for not
including <insert favorite game here>; I'll probably agree.

Scoring is the same as in the last thread. Remember, the "S-Tier" can
only be used the one time (which really should apply to all these
surveys, and not just once-per, but how am I gonna stop you if you
choose otherwise? ;-)

Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
A - I've completed the game multiple times
B - I've played it and completed it once
C - I've played it but never finished it
D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
E - I never even heard of this game!

Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
when they were new.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1993 Doom
Myst
1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
Command & Conquer
1996 Quake
Tomb Raider
1997 Ultima Online
Fallout
1998 Starcraft
Baldur's Gate
1999 Half-Life
Unreal Tournament
2000 Diablo 2
Deus Ex
2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Gothic 2

------------------------------------------------------------------------

AAAAAAAACBBAAABAAABA

My scores are pretty high; a lot of these games are back from when I'd
buy and replay games numerous times (before the current glut of
freebies spoiled us). But also because, well, these games are
considered 'classics' for a reasons; they're really good!

"Ultima Online" gets the lone "C" (arguably it's not even a game you
CAN complete, but I gave it up long before I saw most of its content).
I stayed with "Fallout", "Starcraft", "Diablo 2" and "Medal of Honor:
Allied Assault" long enough to complete their campaigns the one time,
but I've never managed that feat a second time (despite numerous
attempts).

But the rest? I've played and re-played them many times.* Some of the
games (hi, "Doom") are still installed on my hard-drive! Many of them
I have played so often I actually have to WAIT for my memories of the
game to fade before I play them again because their plot-beats and map
layouts are so embedded into my brain.

So... how did you fare? How many of these classics have you /actually/
played?

--------------------------
* Of course, there might be some bias since I'm picking the games and
games I love are more likely to be declared 'classics' and added to
the list than ones I didn't care for. ;-)

On 11/6/23 10:15, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
> Okay, so the first part of this thread was a lot more popular than I
> expected. Was it nostalgia? The joy of learning about forgotten games?
> Who knows, but let's do it again and see if lightning strikes twice.
>
> This time, we're surveying classic games released to IBM PC
> compatibles released during the ten-year period between 1993 and 2002,
> which is seen by many as the golden age of PC gaming. It was /SO/ hard
> to limit myself to just TWO games per year for this period! Games
> which had a huge impact on the industry - either from sales or
> originality or just because they predicted the direction the hobby was
> moving - got higher priority, but I left SO many classics off this
> list, it hurt. Feel free to tell me what an idiot I am for not
> including <insert favorite game here>; I'll probably agree.
>
> Scoring is the same as in the last thread. Remember, the "S-Tier" can
> only be used the one time (which really should apply to all these
> surveys, and not just once-per, but how am I gonna stop you if you
> choose otherwise? ;-)
>
>
> Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
> A - I've completed the game multiple times
> B - I've played it and completed it once
> C - I've played it but never finished it
> D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
> E - I never even heard of this game!
>
> Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
> old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
> scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
> when they were new.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1993 Doom
C We've all played doom, I hope..
> Myst
E > 1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
E > Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
E > 1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
E > Command & Conquer
D > 1996 Quake
C At least, I've played quakespasm on Linux.
> Tomb Raider
D > 1997 Ultima Online
E > Fallout
D Seemed way too hard to play.
> 1998 Starcraft
D > Baldur's Gate
D > 1999 Half-Life
C The steam version is broken for me, making water completely blue your
screen underwater. Got discouraged from playing after.
> Unreal Tournament
D > 2000 Diablo 2
D > Deus Ex
D > 2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
D > Return to Castle WolfensteinD
> 2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
E > Gothic 2
E >

>
> --------------------------
> * Of course, there might be some bias since I'm picking the games and
> games I love are more likely to be declared 'classics' and added to
> the list than ones I didn't care for. ;-)
>

Are you going to do more console games in later ones?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in
news:an2iki10iblsctsp0stp4vg31a7tg1vleb@4ax.com:

B 1993 Doom
B Myst
A 1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
A Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
D 1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
A Command & Conquer
A 1996 Quake
B Tomb Raider
C 1997 Ultima Online
A Fallout
B 1998 Starcraft
A Baldur's Gate
D 1999 Half-Life
D Unreal Tournament
A 2000 Diablo 2
C Deus Ex
D 2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
B Return to Castle Wolfenstein
D 2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
S Gothic 2

Not sure it's fair not giving the 'S' to Diablo 2; I certainly gave it
more hours than all the others put together, largely due to the great
community of people I played with all over the world.

Mark.

--
Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos -- the only sysadmins that matter

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 10:25:35 -0600, candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net>
wrote:

>Are you going to do more console games in later ones?

Well, seeing as this is comp.sys.IBM.PC.GAMES.action, I wouldn't count
on it. ;-P

On 11/6/23 10:55, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 10:25:35 -0600, candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Are you going to do more console games in later ones?
>
> Well, seeing as this is comp.sys.IBM.PC.GAMES.action, I wouldn't count
> on it. ;-P
>
>

Emulators?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 11:15:19 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
> A - I've completed the game multiple times
> B - I've played it and completed it once
> C - I've played it but never finished it
> D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
> E - I never even heard of this game!
>
>Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
>old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
>scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
>when they were new.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1993 Doom
> Myst
> 1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
> Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
> 1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
> Command & Conquer
> 1996 Quake
> Tomb Raider
> 1997 Ultima Online
> Fallout
> 1998 Starcraft
> Baldur's Gate
> 1999 Half-Life
> Unreal Tournament
> 2000 Diablo 2
> Deus Ex
> 2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
> Return to Castle Wolfenstein
> 2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
> Gothic 2

C
D - 7th Guest was boring so I had no interest in Myst.
B A
D B
C D
D A
C A - Baldur's Gate would have been S tier for me but...
D D
S - ... Diablo 2 gets it. Hundreds of hours in this one. More then
all the games on this list combined.
D D
D D
D

I hope you do this again for the later years. I am curious to see how
many Ds I get as we move into the modern era :-P And maybe a few
E's!!

On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 14:10:40 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>>Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
>>old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
>>scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
>>when they were new.

It is going to be the opposite for me I think. Newer games are more
likely to get D and E ratings from me. I am sure I scored better last
time.

On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 14:10:40 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 11:15:19 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

Why I Picked These Games
-------------------------------
>> 1993 Doom
Because its Doom! Not only was it a top-notch game that spawned a
franchise that is still running, it supercharged the modding hobby.
Let's also not forget its ultra-violence that got it a mention in the
USA Congress, nor how it was, for many, their first taste of
multiplayer.

>> Myst
Myst got the nod not because I personally loved it, but because - love
it or hate it - it was hugely influential on the genre. It (or rather,
its dozen of often poorly-designed clones) helped kill the
point-n-click adventure game genre. It's 'photorealistic' (for the
time) visuals also pointed towards what games would look like in the
visuals; no longer limited to the cartoony graphics of PacMan or Kings
Quest, Myst was a first step towards games with ultra-realistic
visuals.

>> 1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
While the gameplay itself was rather unoriginal, WC3 was the first
significant merger between Silicon Valley and Hollywood. It also
showed that the industry had moved out of its bedroom-coder phase,
where games could be developed for a few thousand dollars (and might
only make five or six-digit profits), and was becoming a major
competitor to more traditional forms of media entertainment.

>> Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
Mostly picked because it was the first step to a certain online
behemoth that would be released a decade later. That it was also a
great game, helped establish the RTS genre, and was the first real
breakout hit of Blizzard are also notable.

>> 1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
Not so much because of its gameplay or the franchise, so much as
because the hype for this game was, at the time, just incredible. It
also had an amazingly long development time, and its connection to the
Virtual Battletech Pods gave it some connection to the rise of VR.

>> Command & Conquer
Even more so than Warcraft, Command & Conquer turned the RTS genre
into the next big craze. Strategy games had always had a place on PCs,
but they tended to be stodgy, slow-paced affairs that had little
appeal except to the grognards. But C&C was fast and flashy (it was
another prime example of how BIG games were getting (and I'm not
talking disk-space requirements)

>> 1996 Quake
Everything Doom was, except now in 3D! So many features we commonly
find in modern FPS games are rooted back in Quake. Oh, and its
connection to 3D accelerators was immensely important too.

>> Tomb Raider
Not only a great game (although at this point saying that seems a bit
redundant for all the games on this list), but also important because
its mascot - Lara Croft - was one of the earliest strong female
protagonists, and she became recognizable world-wide even to many
non-gamers. It also proved the PC remained competitive even against
the newest consoles, and help push 3D acceleration.

>> 1997 Ultima Online
Although there were MMORPGs prior to UO, this was the first mega-hit
in the industry, and many of the lessons learned were used to make
other, bigger MMORPGs in the future.

>> Fallout
Mostly added because of the continued success of the franchise, but it
helped transform CRPGs from what were mostly tactical battle
simulators into games with a greater emphasis on story-telling.

>> 1998 Starcraft
Because I don't want 51 million South Koreans screaming for my blood.
Also, probably more than any other game, Starcraft helped create
e-sports.

>> Baldur's Gate
Oh, where to start? It revitalized D&D and helped turn that game from
a geeky pasttime into something more mainstream. It launched Bioware's
career. Half of all modern CRPGs now use its storytelling model as
their basis (e.g., introduce hero, gather allies, do ally loyalty
quests, romance options, etc.).

>> 1999 Half-Life
Another self-explanatory selection. From its silent protagonist, to
its never-take-control-away-from-the-player storytelling, to the fact
that it launched Valve's career, Half Life absolutely has to be on
this list.

>> Unreal Tournament
UT helped transform the multiplayer component of a game from a neat
additional add-on to the single-player, to the reason to play in the
first place. The original Unreal was a gorgeous engine but the game
itself was little more than a tech-demo and might otherwise have been
forgotten; Unreal Tournament helped to transform the industry.

>> 2000 Diablo 2
Diablo might have been more original (and arguably more worthy of
inclusion on the list, but Diablo 2 had the polish that attracted a
rabid fanbase. If Diablo 2 hadn't been as good as it turned out, I'm
pretty sure we wouldn't have had two sequels.

>> Deus Ex
While not the first example in the FPS sandbox game, "Deus Ex" did it
so stylishly and well that it is still held up as the premier example
of how to make a game of its type.

>> 2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
For years, games had been struggling to break out of the constricted
mazes of the early FPS generation; GTA3 was the first game of its type
to really nail the open-world gameplay.

>> Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Honestly, there's nothing genre-changing about RtCW; it's just another
really good game from Id.

>> 2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
MOHAA itself isn't that great, but it was the first significant
realistic first-person military shooter, with more focus on realism
than the usual fantastical "space marine shoots aliens" that had made
up the majority of the genre to that point.

>> Gothic 2
Honestly, Gothic 2 itself didn't leave much of a mark on the industry;
it wasn't very novel in story or gameplay. Still, it was one of the
best CRPGS of its era, and is highly regarded by nearly everyone who
HAS played it.

-------------------------------

>I hope you do this again for the later years. I am curious to see how
>many Ds I get as we move into the modern era :-P And maybe a few
>E's!!

I intend to do one more 'survey', for 2003 to 2013. I think it's too
early to really decide if any games after that date are really
'classics'. It also doesn't help that past that date, the AAA industry
starts to focus on sequels, while most of the games from the nascent
Indies don't get the widespread appeal that a 'classic' deserves).

But tell ya what; if we're all still here in 2033, I'll update the
list. ;-)

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 8:15:31 AM UTC-8, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> Okay, so the first part of this thread was a lot more popular than I
> expected. Was it nostalgia? The joy of learning about forgotten games?
> Who knows, but let's do it again and see if lightning strikes twice.
>
> This time, we're surveying classic games released to IBM PC
> compatibles released during the ten-year period between 1993 and 2002,
> which is seen by many as the golden age of PC gaming. It was /SO/ hard
> to limit myself to just TWO games per year for this period! Games
> which had a huge impact on the industry - either from sales or
> originality or just because they predicted the direction the hobby was
> moving - got higher priority, but I left SO many classics off this
> list, it hurt. Feel free to tell me what an idiot I am for not
> including <insert favorite game here>; I'll probably agree.
>
> Scoring is the same as in the last thread. Remember, the "S-Tier" can
> only be used the one time (which really should apply to all these
> surveys, and not just once-per, but how am I gonna stop you if you
> choose otherwise? ;-)

Oh, well I chose one last time from the list that wasn't my favorite
of all games, though even figuring it out from all the games I love
is impossible. I probably would've said WCIII from this list, and at
the time it was my favorite of all time, but that goes to possibly DS3 or
maybe Fallout 2 now. MoM wasn't on either list, and at one time
that also was my favorite. Duly noted.

> Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
> old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
> scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
> when they were new.

At least no Es and only a couple Ds.

> So... how did you fare? How many of these classics have you /actually/
> played?

B - 1993 Doom
C - Myst
B - 1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
B - Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
B - 1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
D - Command & Conquer
B - 1996 Quake
C - Tomb Raider
C - 1997 Ultima Online
A - Fallout
B - 1998 Starcraft
C - Baldur's Gate
B - 1999 Half-Life
C - Unreal Tournament
A - 2000 Diablo 2
C - Deus Ex
A - 2001 Grand Theft Auto 3 - I played this on PS2 though.
C - Return to Castle Wolfenstein
B - 2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
D - Gothic 2

Some I can't remember if I completed it more than once. I'm not sure
on Fallout and Diablo 2 but think I have. I may have on Doom. I'm not
really one to complete games multiple times. I tend to get to the end
and just go, *meh* about the last leg after the first time, and if I
like it start over again. I also only start over with games you can
complete with multiple different characters usually. I've probably
played Fallout 2 at least 10 times to SF, but only had the want to
finish it once or possibly twice. If you go with MoM and MoO I
probably completed those well over 20 times each, it's just the nature
of the game.

There's a huge difference in the B category due to this, things like
Warcraft was overall just a tolerable game I slogged through to the
end, while WCIII was one of my all time favorites, and I did play WCIII
multiple times, but I'm reasonably sure I completed it only once.

A x3
B x8
C x7
D x2

Alternates

1993 - Master of Orion - A (I think this outsold/was more popular than
Myst)
1997 - Dungeon Keeper - A (Ought to replace UO, UO is more infamous
though.)
1998 - Fallout 2 - A (should be on here, but no sequels makes sense.)
1999 - Planscape Torment - C (eh, sort of a category thing vs. FPS, not
my favorite, but often touted as the best RPG never to have been
surpassed until the last couple years with Disco Elysium and Baldur's
Gate 3)
2000 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (seems to be more popular
than either of the others and D2 is a sequel)
2001 - Max Payne - B (GTA 3 wasn't released on PC until 2002. Also Max
Payne was game changing by introducing or popularizing bullet time.
Technically RtCW is a sequel/remake too.)
2002 - Neverwinter Nights - A (perhaps revolutionary for allowing
people to make, share and run as a DM online games of D&D. Age of
Mythology seems to be the most popular non sequel (or is it?), I'd only
get a D with that one.)

- Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

Here's mine:

A 1993 Doom
D Myst

B 1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
D Warcraft: Orcs & Humans

D 1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
A Command & Conquer

C 1996 Quake
C Tomb Raider

D 1997 Ultima Online
C Fallout

C 1998 Starcraft
D Baldur's Gate

D 1999 Half-Life
D Unreal Tournament

D 2000 Diablo 2
S Deus Ex

A 2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
A Return to Castle Wolfenstein

D 2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
D Gothic 2

AD BD DA CC DC CD DD DS AA DD

S: 1
A: 4
B: 1
C: 4
D: 10

No Es this time. Seems reasonable as I got my first PC in 1990. I
suppose my preferences in games show in the number of Ds...

Deus Ex is absolutely my favorite game, out of these at least, maybe all
time. Too bad the franchise seems to have fizzled out. It mostly just
went downhill after the original. Human Revolution was still decent but
not that good. Of course, how many global conspiracies can you have?
That sort of storytelling doesn't work that well after a few iterations.

I thought I hadn't played Tomb Raider but then I remembered Lara's sharp
polygon butt as rendered by probably a Voodoo 1 card.

1993 Doom - D
Myst - D
1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger - D
I'll go with that as I've heard the franchise
Warcraft: Orcs & Humans - D
1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat - E
Command & Conquer - D
1996 Quake - D
Tomb Raider - C
1997 Ultima Online - D
Fallout - C
1998 Starcraft - D
Baldur's Gate - C
1999 Half-Life - A/S
Unreal Tournament - C
2000 Diablo 2 - C
Deus Ex - C
2001 Grand Theft Auto 3 - D
Return to Castle Wolfenstein - D
2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault - A
Gothic 2 - D

So better than last time!

On 07/11/2023 12:24, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Deus Ex is absolutely my favorite game, out of these at least, maybe all
> time. Too bad the franchise seems to have fizzled out. It mostly just
> went downhill after the original. Human Revolution was still decent but
> not that good. Of course, how many global conspiracies can you have?
> That sort of storytelling doesn't work that well after a few iterations.

It's in my category of a game I thought I would like, and tried to like,
but just didn't. So also System Shock 2.

Before moving on to the inevitable part three of this series, I
thought I'd offer an 'expansion pack' for part two. In my previous
post, I selected games which I felt had the largest impact on PC
gaming; I chose titles with a legacy. Titles like "Doom" or "Half
Life" which had a significant pedigree. But there were a lot of
awesome games which - while still well regarded - didn't have quite
the same impact. So here are some of the less-well-remembered classics
of that era: how many have you played?

--------------------------------
Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
A - I've completed the game multiple times
B - I've played it and completed it once
C - I've played it but never finished it
D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
E - I never even heard of this game!
--------------------------------

1993 Syndicate
SimCity 2000
1994 One Must Fall 2097
X-COM: UFO Defense
1995 Phantasmagoria
Heroes of Might & Magic
1996 Duke Nukem 3D
Circle of Blood (a.k.a. Broken Sword)
1997 Dungeon Keeper
Grand Theft Auto
1998 Quake II
Rainbow Six
1999 Independence War
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
2000 Thief 2: The Metal Age
American McGee's Alice
2001 Serious Sam: The First Encounter
Clive Baker's Undying
2002 Arx Fatalis
Battlefield 1942

Myself, I get the usual high scores: AAABCBAABCABBBCABBC. This was,
after all, the era when I made it a point to try and play every game I
bought at least twice.*

Anyway, how did you do this time? Better or worse than the better
known classics from the first time around?

------------
* Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
place at the table too ;-) But feel free to offer up your own list of
games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 7:08:04 AM UTC-8, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> Before moving on to the inevitable part three of this series, I
> thought I'd offer an 'expansion pack' for part two. In my previous
> post, I selected games which I felt had the largest impact on PC
> gaming; I chose titles with a legacy. Titles like "Doom" or "Half
> Life" which had a significant pedigree. But there were a lot of
> awesome games which - while still well regarded - didn't have quite
> the same impact. So here are some of the less-well-remembered classics
> of that era: how many have you played?

No fair, you didn't answer my bonus ones, which again I'd argue are more
important to gaming, though a few appear on my list.

B - 1993 Syndicate
C - SimCity 2000
C - 1994 One Must Fall 2097 (I completed the demo does that count :} I
only got the full game probably 20 years later and didn't find much to
recommend it vs. the demo.)
C - X-COM: UFO Defense
E - 1995 Phantasmagoria
D - Heroes of Might & Magic (I intend to rectify that at some point,
I bought it on GoG)
B - 1996 Duke Nukem 3D
E - Circle of Blood (a.k.a. Broken Sword)
A - 1997 Dungeon Keeper
C - Grand Theft Auto (completed the first level and that took forever,
I noped out after I saw there was more than one level.)
D - 1998 Quake II
D - Rainbow Six
E - 1999 Independence War
B - Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
D - 2000 Thief 2: The Metal Age
D - American McGee's Alice (I've thought about playing it.)
B - 2001 Serious Sam: The First Encounter (I think I completed it,
I did play it but it barely registers.)
D - Clive Baker's Undying
D - 2002 Arx Fatalis
B - Battlefield 1942

A - 1
B - 5
C - 4
D - 7
E - 2

I did much worse on this one, even getting a couple I've never heard of.
I may have heard of both but I may be conflating that with a movie or
magazine or something, so I erred on the side of caution.

- Jusitsaur

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in
news:fj17li10k4b7uppoo29q3e7se4kjrce2ul@4ax.com:

>
> Before moving on to the inevitable part three of this series, I
> thought I'd offer an 'expansion pack' for part two. In my previous
> post, I selected games which I felt had the largest impact on PC
> gaming; I chose titles with a legacy. Titles like "Doom" or "Half
> Life" which had a significant pedigree. But there were a lot of
> awesome games which - while still well regarded - didn't have quite
> the same impact. So here are some of the less-well-remembered classics
> of that era: how many have you played?
>
> --------------------------------
> Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
> A - I've completed the game multiple times
> B - I've played it and completed it once
> C - I've played it but never finished it
> D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
> E - I never even heard of this game!
> --------------------------------
>
> 1993 Syndicate
> SimCity 2000
> 1994 One Must Fall 2097
> X-COM: UFO Defense
> 1995 Phantasmagoria
> Heroes of Might & Magic
> 1996 Duke Nukem 3D
> Circle of Blood (a.k.a. Broken Sword)
> 1997 Dungeon Keeper
> Grand Theft Auto
> 1998 Quake II
> Rainbow Six
> 1999 Independence War
> Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
> 2000 Thief 2: The Metal Age
> American McGee's Alice
> 2001 Serious Sam: The First Encounter
> Clive Baker's Undying
> 2002 Arx Fatalis
> Battlefield 1942
>

These ten years I had a great job writing analysis software for a biology
lab, and didn't have much time for games.

All Ds except for Arx and Alice, which get C.

--
Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos -- the only sysadmins that matter

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 10:07:51 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>--------------------------------
>Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
> A - I've completed the game multiple times
> B - I've played it and completed it once
> C - I've played it but never finished it
> D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
> E - I never even heard of this game!
>--------------------------------
>
>1993 Syndicate
> SimCity 2000
>1994 One Must Fall 2097
> X-COM: UFO Defense
>1995 Phantasmagoria
> Heroes of Might & Magic
>1996 Duke Nukem 3D
> Circle of Blood (a.k.a. Broken Sword)
>1997 Dungeon Keeper
> Grand Theft Auto
>1998 Quake II
> Rainbow Six
>1999 Independence War
> Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
>2000 Thief 2: The Metal Age
> American McGee's Alice
>2001 Serious Sam: The First Encounter
> Clive Baker's Undying
>2002 Arx Fatalis
> Battlefield 1942

B
D D
C D
B B
D D
D D
D E
D D
D D
D D
D

Wow, a whole bunch of Ds for me and even an E. What the hell is
Independence War?

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 15:13:15 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:

>Alternates
>
>1993 - Master of Orion
>1997 - Dungeon Keeper
>1998 - Fallout 2
>1999 - Planscape Torment
>2000 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
>2001 - Max Payne
>2002 - Neverwinter Nights

Whoops. I missed this when it was originally posted. Well, better nate
than lever.

My score: ACBAAAB
(translation: all games have been finished multiple times except for
"Fallout 2" and "Neverwinter Nights", which only got one complete
playthrough each, and "Dungeon Keeper", which I have started multiple
times but never finished).

Your selection includes all excellent games and the only reason I
didn't list them is because there were so many other games to choose
from. I had to draw the line SOMEWHERE.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:49:36 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Wow, a whole bunch of Ds for me and even an E. What the hell is
>Independence War?

A well-renowned but largely forgotten space-flight simulator (e.g.
"Wing Commander" style games, albeit not quite as arcadey). It only
spawned a single sequel and - due to its dependence on 3DFX for
acceleration - quickly fell out of play. But at the time, it was held
up alongside games like "TIE Fighter" as one of THE games to play if
you enjoyed the genre.

It features a fairly hard sci-fi setting, vaguely Newtonian
space-flight mechanics, and an interesting mechanic where you are
responsible for manning all four seats in your Dreadnaught-class
Corvette. It had a significant learning curve, though, and was quite
rough around the edges (IIRC, the intro movie, for instance, had to be
played MANUALLY by launching the included AVI file). Despite this, it
got fairly high reviews.

Yet it's all but forgotten today. :-(

On 06/11/2023 23:13, Justisaur wrote:
> 1999 - Planscape Torment - C (eh, sort of a category thing vs. FPS, not
> my favorite, but often touted as the best RPG never to have been
> surpassed until the last couple years with Disco Elysium and Baldur's
> Gate 3)

PS:T was certainly my top RPG until Disco Elysium mainly because it not
only went away from the typical high fantasy setting of orcs and dwarfs
it also focused more on the story than the combat. The other part was
that for once I felt more of a connection with the companion PC's and I
didn't just view them more like an item in my inventory.

I think the two biggest let downs where the combat felt half baked (oh
yet another group of hive dwellers who are intent on attacking me the
same as when I last passed through this area) and the final 10% or so
just felt rushed and relied more on combat than the rest of the game.

On 14/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> * Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
> which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
> never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
> instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
> place at the table too 😉 But feel free to offer up your own list of
> games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.

Two I fondly remember in my classics list are Combat Mission: Beyond
Overlord and Close Combat II: A Bridge To Far. The reason for this was
in a genre that felt almost completely focused on creating digital
versions of boardgames they instead did wargames that you can't do at
the tabletop and used the advantages of a PC.

CM I almost missed playing as I first tried it when the demo was
included on a magazine CD. I did what I always did with them which is if
I liked the sound of it I'd give it a go. I was totally baffled as to
what was going on so didn't play it for more than thirty mins or so.
Maybe several months later I picked it when browsing at our local game
store not realising it was the same game.

When I realised it was I thought well I've paid for this so I need to
give it at least a try and understand how to play it. Absolutely loved it.

At this point I have to give a special mention to Borodino on the Atari
ST (heh, wrong era and platform but never mind). This again took a
wargame and showed what a computer can do. So, as the name it implies,
it's the Battle of Borodino in 1812 where you take the role of Napoleon.

The new thing it did was given you a 3d map where you could command you
units but with two major twists. If you wanted to get more detail on
what was actually happening you had to use a telescope. The second, no
just clicking on a unit and telling it what to do - you write out an
order, which can get lost, and that gets sent to a commander each with
the only personalities. That affects how they act including not carrying
out orders or acting on their own initiative.

As a bonus a laminated map and dry eraser was included that you used to
literally draw you units, and what their orders where, on.

The problem was I'm not sure how much fun it actually was a game even
though I spent many an hour playing it.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 10:24:17 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>On 14/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> * Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
>> which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
>> never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
>> instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
>> place at the table too ? But feel free to offer up your own list of
>> games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.
>
>Two I fondly remember in my classics list are Combat Mission: Beyond
>Overlord and Close Combat II: A Bridge To Far. The reason for this was
>in a genre that felt almost completely focused on creating digital
>versions of boardgames they instead did wargames that you can't do at
>the tabletop and used the advantages of a PC.
>
>CM I almost missed playing as I first tried it when the demo was
>included on a magazine CD. I did what I always did with them which is if
>I liked the sound of it I'd give it a go. I was totally baffled as to
>what was going on so didn't play it for more than thirty mins or so.
>Maybe several months later I picked it when browsing at our local game
>store not realising it was the same game.
>
>When I realised it was I thought well I've paid for this so I need to
>give it at least a try and understand how to play it. Absolutely loved it.
>
>At this point I have to give a special mention to Borodino on the Atari
>ST (heh, wrong era and platform but never mind). This again took a
>wargame and showed what a computer can do. So, as the name it implies,
>it's the Battle of Borodino in 1812 where you take the role of Napoleon.

>The problem was I'm not sure how much fun it actually was a game even
>though I spent many an hour playing it.

"Borodino" came to PC too (in 1989), as well as several other similar
titles from Turcan Research Systems (the developer): "Armada",
"Austerlitz" and "Dreadnaught". All of them used variations of the
same engine. Although amazingly primitive to modern eyes, it's 3D
engine is impressive considering it was designed to run on 80286 CPUs.

But I fall into the same camp as you: impressed by the tech but not
really able to endure the game long enough to actually PLAY it and
judge its mechanics. It's a game for the groggiest of wargaming
grognards.

On 11/15/2023 2:24 AM, JAB wrote:
> On 14/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>> * Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
>> which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
>> never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
>> instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
>> place at the table too 😉 But feel free to offer up your own list of
>> games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.
>
> Two I fondly remember in my classics list are Combat Mission: Beyond
> Overlord and Close Combat II: A Bridge To Far. The reason for this was
> in a genre that felt almost completely focused on creating digital
> versions of boardgames they instead did wargames that you can't do at
> the tabletop and used the advantages of a PC.
>
> CM I almost missed playing as I first tried it when the demo was
> included on a magazine CD. I did what I always did with them which is if
> I liked the sound of it I'd give it a go. I was totally baffled as to
> what was going on so didn't play it for more than thirty mins or so.
> Maybe several months later I picked it when browsing at our local game
> store not realising it was the same game.
>
> When I realised it was I thought well I've paid for this so I need to
> give it at least a try and understand how to play it. Absolutely loved it.
>
> At this point I have to give a special mention to Borodino on the Atari
> ST (heh, wrong era and platform but never mind). This again took a
> wargame and showed what a computer can do. So, as the name it implies,
> it's the Battle of Borodino in 1812 where you take the role of Napoleon.
>
> The new thing it did was given you a 3d map where you could command you
> units but with two major twists. If you wanted to get more detail on
> what was actually happening you had to use a telescope. The second, no
> just clicking on a unit and telling it what to do - you write out an
> order, which can get lost, and that gets sent to a commander each with
> the only personalities. That affects how they act including not carrying
> out orders or acting on their own initiative.
>
> As a bonus a laminated map and dry eraser was included that you used to
> literally draw you units, and what their orders where, on.
>
> The problem was I'm not sure how much fun it actually was a game even
> though I spent many an hour playing it.

Satisfaction at a plan well executed counts as "fun". So does pulling a
failed plan out of the compost. :)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 15/11/2023 13:50, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 10:24:17 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>> On 14/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>>> * Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
>>> which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
>>> never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
>>> instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
>>> place at the table too ? But feel free to offer up your own list of
>>> games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.
>>
>> Two I fondly remember in my classics list are Combat Mission: Beyond
>> Overlord and Close Combat II: A Bridge To Far. The reason for this was
>> in a genre that felt almost completely focused on creating digital
>> versions of boardgames they instead did wargames that you can't do at
>> the tabletop and used the advantages of a PC.
>>
>> CM I almost missed playing as I first tried it when the demo was
>> included on a magazine CD. I did what I always did with them which is if
>> I liked the sound of it I'd give it a go. I was totally baffled as to
>> what was going on so didn't play it for more than thirty mins or so.
>> Maybe several months later I picked it when browsing at our local game
>> store not realising it was the same game.
>>
>> When I realised it was I thought well I've paid for this so I need to
>> give it at least a try and understand how to play it. Absolutely loved it.
>>
>> At this point I have to give a special mention to Borodino on the Atari
>> ST (heh, wrong era and platform but never mind). This again took a
>> wargame and showed what a computer can do. So, as the name it implies,
>> it's the Battle of Borodino in 1812 where you take the role of Napoleon.
>
>> The problem was I'm not sure how much fun it actually was a game even
>> though I spent many an hour playing it.
>
> "Borodino" came to PC too (in 1989), as well as several other similar
> titles from Turcan Research Systems (the developer): "Armada",
> "Austerlitz" and "Dreadnaught". All of them used variations of the
> same engine. Although amazingly primitive to modern eyes, it's 3D
> engine is impressive considering it was designed to run on 80286 CPUs.
>
> But I fall into the same camp as you: impressed by the tech but not
> really able to endure the game long enough to actually PLAY it and
> judge its mechanics. It's a game for the groggiest of wargaming
> grognards.
>
>

Oh I liked it and spent many hours playing it but I'm not sure it was
fun. A similar experience is Airborne Assault: Conquest of the Aegean. I
spent many hours playing it but again not sure I'd say it's fun.

On 15/11/2023 16:34, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> Satisfaction at a plan well executed counts as "fun".  So does pulling a
> failed plan out of the compost.  🙂

This was more crossing that my line into something that became really
hard work. So taking Conquest of the Aegean. Depending on what settings
you select it really does ramp up the realism of how a real commander
controls their troops and the situation as reported to them on the
battlefield. I liked the concept that you didn't order individual units
but instead HQ's which will then form a plan around your order based on
the units under their own command. It was really nice to see a group of
units manoeuvring into positions and formations before launching an
attack. You also had the great idea of when attacking or defending you
could set and aggression level to how hard that would try and carry out
an order. Order delays just became a bit too much for me when when you
had to do a lot of careful calculations of when you might expect an HQ
to receive, and act, on them so that you could coordinate your overall
force in a cohesive manner.

To take another example, Field of Glory II. One of the criticisms
levelled at it is once you commit your units then you in many ways lose
control of them until either they or the enemy unit breaks. I actually
liked that as it gave a good flavour of how warfare was then. You come
up with an overall plan and then cross your fingers hoping to get the
decisive blow.

Another example where I think realism gets in the way of fun is
logistics, for many years now that has been a core component of warfare
yet do I really want it in a game more than an abstraction. Not really no.

Of course the normal caveat of each to their own and what I want in
games is only that.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

1993 Syndicate C
SimCity 2000 D
1994 One Must Fall 2097 D
X-COM: UFO Defense S (and A)
1995 Phantasmagoria D
Heroes of Might & Magic D
1996 Duke Nukem 3D A
Circle of Blood (a.k.a. Broken Sword) D
1997 Dungeon Keeper D
Grand Theft Auto D
1998 Quake II D
Rainbow Six D
1999 Independence War C
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri D
2000 Thief 2: The Metal Age D
American McGee's Alice C
2001 Serious Sam: The First Encounter D
Clive Baker's Undying D
2002 Arx Fatalis D
Battlefield 1942 D

Only one game that I've *seriously* played on here, the old X-COM. I
even kept a DOS-compatible PC around so I could replay on occasion.