On 21 Dec 2021 22:08:14 GMT, TimS wrote:

>
> Ah, a bit like the EU then, that tried and failed in the Balkans. NATO
> had to come and save them.
>
The EU has never had a military so, by definition, NATO could not have
'come in and saved them'.

In any case, everything that went down in 1991/2 seems to have been an
purely internal Yugoslavian matter. Yugoslavia was Tito's construct post
WW2. It was essentially assembled post WW2 by Tito from a number of small
kingdoms who historically hated each other, and didn't stop doing so
during WW2.

If you want the whole story, read "Eastern Approaches" by Fitzroy Mclean,
who was there during the 2nd half of WW2 and knew Tito really well. The
book is a rattling good read, too: the old boy did some amazing
travelling pre-war and was a founding member of the SAS during it, but I
digress.

With its history, its scarcely surprising that Yugoslavia disintegrated
when and how it did: Tito had died in 1980 and the Soviet Union was in
the process of rapid unplanned disassembly in progress in 1991/2. I
remember that very well: I was at a sporting event in Zrenjanin in summer
1991 when it all kicked off and we were VERY pleased to make it back into
Hungary and, before you ask, Hungary wasn't in the EU then - it didn't
join until 2004.

In fact the only part of the former Yugoslavia that ever has been an EU
member is Croatia, which joined in 2013. Serbia applied to join in 2014
but still hasn't done so.

On 21 Dec 2021 at 23:25:17 GMT, Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid>
wrote:

> On 21 Dec 2021 22:08:14 GMT, TimS wrote:
>
>>
>> Ah, a bit like the EU then, that tried and failed in the Balkans. NATO
>> had to come and save them.
>>
> The EU has never had a military so, by definition, NATO could not have
> 'come in and saved them'.
>
> In any case, everything that went down in 1991/2 seems to have been an
> purely internal Yugoslavian matter. Yugoslavia was Tito's construct post
> WW2. It was essentially assembled post WW2 by Tito from a number of small
> kingdoms who historically hated each other, and didn't stop doing so
> during WW2.

The Yugoslavia we know was Tito's yes, but it was founded in 1918. Although it
didn't get the name "Kingdom of Yugoslavia" until 1929.

But you're right that they never stopped hating each other.

At school, we learnt about 19thC European history, which included the Balkans.
And we learnt they'd had this mutual dislike for hundreds of years. Another
teacher once asked us what we'd been learning about in History, I mentioned
the Balkans, and his response was "Well, of course that discord is all
finished now, it's all peace and harmony due to the wise Socialist policies of
President Tito". That went well, eh?

> If you want the whole story, read "Eastern Approaches" by Fitzroy Mclean,
> who was there during the 2nd half of WW2 and knew Tito really well. The
> book is a rattling good read, too: the old boy did some amazing
> travelling pre-war and was a founding member of the SAS during it, but I
> digress.
>
> With its history, its scarcely surprising that Yugoslavia disintegrated
> when and how it did:

Well quite.

> Tito had died in 1980

and a chap I knew was a stringer for AP, in Belgrade to cover Tito's expected
demise. One weekend he thought nothing was going to happen so went to
Dubrovnik for the weekend. Oops! Tito pegged it and suddenly no transport back
to Belgrade was available.

> and the Soviet Union was in
> the process of rapid unplanned disassembly in progress in 1991/2. I
> remember that very well: I was at a sporting event in Zrenjanin in summer
> 1991 when it all kicked off and we were VERY pleased to make it back into
> Hungary and, before you ask, Hungary wasn't in the EU then - it didn't
> join until 2004.
>
> In fact the only part of the former Yugoslavia that ever has been an EU
> member is Croatia, which joined in 2013. Serbia applied to join in 2014
> but still hasn't done so.

Don't forget Slovenia.

--
Tim

On 22 Dec 2021 at 00:25:17 CET, "Martin Gregorie" <martin@mydomain.invalid>
wrote:

> In fact the only part of the former Yugoslavia that ever has been an EU
> member is Croatia, which joined in 2013. Serbia applied to join in 2014
> but still hasn't done so.

Slovenia joined in 2004.

Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephen@vfxforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, +44 (0)78 0390 3612, +34 649 662 974
http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads

On 21/12/2021 16:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:46:23 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> There is also a theory, that the reason why Europe arise to dominance in
>> the middle ages is precisely because it comprised tens of little
>> principalities always at war with each other and looking for 'Lebensraum'.
>
> This seems like a very reasonable theory - and Europeans exploded
> across the world because attacking the neighbours was becoming too
> difficult/dangerous.
>
>> The massive pace of technological development between 1935 and 2000 was
>> the direct result of pouring resources into warcraft, and the massive
>> spinoff of high tech that ensued .
>
> For sure, and that has directly resulted in the world becoming too
> small and fragile compared to our destructive capabilities for us to
> indulge in hobbies like war - it is not been safe to pack a picnic and go
> and watch the lads fight for a while now. These days it's best to watch from
> a different continent by TV but it'll get dodgy sharing the same planet if
> the more enthusiastic lads ever get their way.
>
Well you aren't as deep a student of warcraft as you should be. War is
not carried out by other means than the massive hammer blow of a megaton
nuclear strike.

Even Desert Storm is a bit outdated. What you do now is precision
strikes on opposition leaders, or cyber war, or propaganda and AgitProp.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

On 21/12/2021 18:40, Java Jive wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 14:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>>
>>> When are you going to stop lying about the EU???!!!
>>>
>> When are you?
>
> I posted links that explain how EU democracy actually works, that is not
> lying, whereas you are always spouting lies about the EU.
>
>>> This is how the EU actually works, either read and understand it, or
>>> don't bother and stop speaking out of your arse about things that you
>>> can't be arsed to understand:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission
>>
>> Those  exactly confirms what I have said, the European parliament is
>> an 'upper' house only - it does not debate policy, merely rubber
>> stamps it.
>>
>> The council has no power to initaiate or execute policy. it is just
>> another taklkingshop
>>
>> Only the unelected commissioners initiate policy, and they do so
>> according to whatever takes their fancy, or whoever lines their bank
>> accounts
>
> ALL FALSE! READ THE LINKS AND STOP LYING!
>
>
Read the links which confirm what I say, and show you are lying, and
calm down,

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

On 21/12/2021 18:43, Java Jive wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 14:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 21/12/2021 10:08, Pancho wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/12/2021 09:20, TimS wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We already know how it really works: an unelected dictatorship with no
>>>> opposition and with the public having no opportunity to affect that.
>
> Bollocks, read the links given up thread about how the EU really works
> and stop lying out of your arse.
>
>>> I'll vote for that!
>>
>> You may. It will have no effect whatsoever.!
>>
>> Hitler also came to power democratically, but he didn't leave power
>> that way.
>
> Whereas EU functions democratically.
>
The EU does not even function, let alone democratically.

Tell me, as an EU citizen, how you, for example get rid of Von der
Leyen, and put in someone else, or who you vote for to, for example, get
rid of the directive on renewable obligations?

The short answer is that you are powerless. Even if you change your
national government by democratic process, it doesn't have the power to
do that, either. We sent Cameron to Brussles and they told him to be a
good little boy and fuck off.

Voting in MEPs has zero effect. We overwhelmingly put in UKIP to the
European parliament. There was nothing they could do.

Only one vote - Brexit - has ever made any difference at all.

And that by itself has only had one effect, and that is that our
national vote now has some effect.

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
– H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On 21/12/2021 18:45, Java Jive wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 21/12/2021 09:20, TimS wrote:
>>>
>>> On 20 Dec 2021 at 22:30:31 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> See the links given in my reply to the The Unnatural Pillock for how
>>>> the
>>>> EU system of government really works.
>>>
>>> We already know how it really works: an unelected dictatorship with no
>>> opposition and with the public having no opportunity to affect that.
>>>
>> And the irony is, that the links he supplied totally confirm that!
>
> No they don't read them properly and stop lying about the EU.
>
I did read them properly, But I cant help you being in denial and not
reading them properly yourself.

It is understandable, you having been made a fool of for so many years
by the myth of the Liberal Democratic Benevolent EU, but I think you
should man up and apologise to yourself, at least.

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

On 21/12/2021 22:08, TimS wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2021 at 18:49:28 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 21/12/2021 09:19, TimS wrote:
>>> With an elected dictatorship, you know where the buck stops. I detested the
>>> Blair Labour Govt, but at least you knew who was in charge and it's up to the
>>> Opposition to point out it's failings.
>>
>> And we got embroiled in a foreign war.
>
> Ah, a bit like the EU then, that tried and failed in the Balkans. NATO had to
> come and save them.
>
EU has always strutted and fretted its hour upon the stage, hiding
behind the skirts of NATO, telling tales invented by idiots, full of
moral indignation and
signifying nothing.

I have come to the conclusions that those who want to return to it, are
like the plantation slaves of the deep south, who, shorn of their
shackles, wept, because now they couldn't handle not being told what to do.

Cradle to the grave socialism, that's what those slaves had.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

On 21/12/2021 20:25, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> But all this conveniently ignores the role of those Africans and Arabs
> who provided the slaves who ended up in the Caribbean and 'The Deep
> South' of America.
>
> There seems to be remarkably little difference between the mental
> capacity and attitudes of the ruling classes to their subjects,
> regardless of whether those were called serfs, slaves, millhands,
> labourers or zero-hour contractors and whether the rulers were called
> Alexander The Great, Julius Cesar, King Henry VIII, Beneto Mussolini,
> Comrade Stalin, Ayatollah Khomeini, Robert Mugabe, Donald Trump or
> Alexander Lukashenko
> .

If you examine the social dynamics of hierarchical societies, you will
note that they survive because at some level they work.

Take the industrialization of Britain, which led ultimately to what we
call the Left - Champions (allegedly) of those who worked the machines
against those who owned them.

Why on earth would anyone leave an idyllic pastoral existence for a two
up tow down outside toileted terrace in a grim coal fired industrial town?

Well read Flora Thompson's 'Larks Rise to Candleford' and get an inkling.

Population increased ten fold under the virtual enslavement of the
'working classes' by the 'capitalists' and if it was bad in the towns,
it was better than on the farms.

The fact is that huge numbers of people are quite happy to be told what
to think, what to say, what to wear, how to behave by people who regard
them as pitiable inferiors, provided they are comfortable and warm. And
told how clever and deserving they really are.

Examine the myth of 'equality'. Mediaeval society realised that
literacy and numeracy were pointless in and unaffordable by the
labouring classes. Basically you could have a few educated people, or no
educated people.

They decided on the former, and society prospered

Today we have the latter, and society is collapsing

What works, is what works. Today's progressive 'full Marx for everyone'
society will either succeed in creating willing slaves of us all, or it
will collapse due to lack of anybody with any specialist skills. Or in
fact both.

And someone who hits on a nasty repressive illiberal and totally fascist
solution will come in and take over.

Take your pick between Islam and the CCP. They know what to do with
LBGT and dissidents in an overpopulated world....

The Liberal Left are all romantic hand wavey ideologues focussing on
what their simple minds conceive the world *ought* to be.

Whilst completely ignoring the hard inescapable reality of what it
actually *is*. Outside of their 'safe space' kindergartens.

Well if it lasts, I will be surprised. Its not nearly as stable as a
police state.

--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 10:53:50 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 21/12/2021 16:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:46:23 +0000
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> There is also a theory, that the reason why Europe arise to dominance
> >> in the middle ages is precisely because it comprised tens of little
> >> principalities always at war with each other and looking for
> >> 'Lebensraum'.
> >
> > This seems like a very reasonable theory - and Europeans
> > exploded across the world because attacking the neighbours was becoming
> > too difficult/dangerous.
> >
> >> The massive pace of technological development between 1935 and 2000 was
> >> the direct result of pouring resources into warcraft, and the massive
> >> spinoff of high tech that ensued .
> >
> > For sure, and that has directly resulted in the world becoming
> > too small and fragile compared to our destructive capabilities for us to
> > indulge in hobbies like war - it is not been safe to pack a picnic and
> > go and watch the lads fight for a while now. These days it's best to
> > watch from a different continent by TV but it'll get dodgy sharing the
> > same planet if the more enthusiastic lads ever get their way.
> >
> Well you aren't as deep a student of warcraft as you should be. War is
> not carried out by other means than the massive hammer blow of a megaton
> nuclear strike.

Of course, that's only been done once, ever since then the hammer
has been held behind the back, but it's still there.

> Even Desert Storm is a bit outdated. What you do now is precision
> strikes on opposition leaders, or cyber war, or propaganda and AgitProp.

Have you seen Gaza recently ? Some folks are behind the times, and
some of them have nuclear toys. Also the combination of cyber war and
automated weapons is not a pretty one to contemplate.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 21 Dec 2021 at 20:25:59 GMT, Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid>
wrote:

> But all this conveniently ignores the role of those Africans and Arabs
> who provided the slaves who ended up in the Caribbean and 'The Deep
> South' of America.

Those African kings and Chieftains who raided their neighbours and took
prisoners for slavery, you mean? Who'd been doing that for years and who were
quite happy to sell them on to slave traders when that opportunity arose. Well
of course that's something else that's not to be mentioned in polite, oops, PC
society.

--
Tim

On 22/12/2021 11:47, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 10:53:50 +0000
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 21/12/2021 16:51, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:46:23 +0000
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is also a theory, that the reason why Europe arise to dominance
>>>> in the middle ages is precisely because it comprised tens of little
>>>> principalities always at war with each other and looking for
>>>> 'Lebensraum'.
>>>
>>> This seems like a very reasonable theory - and Europeans
>>> exploded across the world because attacking the neighbours was becoming
>>> too difficult/dangerous.
>>>
>>>> The massive pace of technological development between 1935 and 2000 was
>>>> the direct result of pouring resources into warcraft, and the massive
>>>> spinoff of high tech that ensued .
>>>
>>> For sure, and that has directly resulted in the world becoming
>>> too small and fragile compared to our destructive capabilities for us to
>>> indulge in hobbies like war - it is not been safe to pack a picnic and
>>> go and watch the lads fight for a while now. These days it's best to
>>> watch from a different continent by TV but it'll get dodgy sharing the
>>> same planet if the more enthusiastic lads ever get their way.
>>>
>> Well you aren't as deep a student of warcraft as you should be. War is
>> not carried out by other means than the massive hammer blow of a megaton
>> nuclear strike.
>
> Of course, that's only been done once, ever since then the hammer
> has been held behind the back, but it's still there.
>
>> Even Desert Storm is a bit outdated. What you do now is precision
>> strikes on opposition leaders, or cyber war, or propaganda and AgitProp.
>
> Have you seen Gaza recently ? Some folks are behind the times, and
> some of them have nuclear toys. Also the combination of cyber war and
> automated weapons is not a pretty one to contemplate.
>
Well those with nuclear toys are being quietly taken apart by cyber
wars, and automated weapons.

What is a war for, really? its to gain someone else's territory and
assets and enslave their populations, in which case nuclear war is not
great as it destroys both, or its to stop someone else doing it to you.
So all it is is a deterrent.
And by and large an effective one.

The only other possible strategic use is genocide on a massive scale. To
get rid of someone you don't like and dont want in the world. So one
might consider nuking china with a pre-emptive strike to basically get
rid of a few billion chinese, and send the rest back to the stone age.

Trouble is, they can dish it out as well.

The face of the enemy on the other side of the asymmetry is
ExtinctionRebellion, Black LivesMatter, Greenpeace...etc etc. All good
AgitProp teams ready to create as much dissension within a culture as
possible. Mind fuck versus hi tech.

And all in the best possible (moral) taste, as Kenny Everett used to say.

--
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the
greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of
conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

― Leo Tolstoy

On 22/12/2021 12:10, TimS wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2021 at 20:25:59 GMT, Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> But all this conveniently ignores the role of those Africans and Arabs
>> who provided the slaves who ended up in the Caribbean and 'The Deep
>> South' of America.
>
> Those African kings and Chieftains who raided their neighbours and took
> prisoners for slavery, you mean? Who'd been doing that for years and who were
> quite happy to sell them on to slave traders when that opportunity arose. Well
> of course that's something else that's not to be mentioned in polite, oops, PC
> society.
>
Of course. I mean who were slaves? losers. captives in dirty little
tribal wars. Sold on for blankets and beads and transported to a
country, where if they survived, they had every chance of ending up
President, after enough interbreeding anyway.

Black Americans are not the same as black Africans.

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

TimS wrote:
> Those African kings and Chieftains who raided their neighbours and took
> prisoners for slavery, you mean? Who'd been doing that for years and who were
> quite happy to sell them on to slave traders when that opportunity arose.

Not quite so easy. Yes, slavery had a very old tradition there. But it
was neither heriditary nor even long term. Slaves gradually grew into
citzenship over years or at least decades. Outsiders, whom slaves were
sold to, misunderstood, unknowingly or on pupose, what the transaction
was supposed to entail.

Of course under commercial and military pressure the old values
deteriorated even there.

--
/¯\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
\ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Straße 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
 X in | D-50829 Köln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
/ \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

On 22/12/2021 11:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 18:43, Java Jive wrote:
>> On 21/12/2021 14:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/12/2021 10:08, Pancho wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 21/12/2021 09:20, TimS wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We already know how it really works: an unelected dictatorship with no
>>>>> opposition and with the public having no opportunity to affect that.
>>
>> Bollocks, read the links given up thread about how the EU really works
>> and stop lying out of your arse.
>>
>>>> I'll vote for that!
>>>
>>> You may. It will have no effect whatsoever.!
>>>
>>> Hitler also came to power democratically, but he didn't leave power
>>> that way.
>>
>> Whereas EU functions democratically.
>>
> The EU does not even function, let alone democratically.
>
> Tell me, as an EU citizen, how you, for example get rid of Von der
> Leyen, and put in someone else, or who you vote for to, for example, get
> rid of the directive on renewable obligations?

Ask the same questions about the UK government! How do yo get rid of a
proven liar while holding office, who therefore should be detained at
her majesty's pleasure in one of Her Majesty's prisons, not Her
Majesty's Prime Minister's accommodation, and has betrayed the best
interests of the country, and allowed thousands of its citizens to die
avoidably, and who wasn't elected by the majority of the electorate?

> The short answer is that you are powerless. Even if you change your
> national government by  democratic process

Ditto.

[Snip bullshit]

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 22/12/2021 11:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 21/12/2021 18:45, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> On 21/12/2021 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/12/2021 09:20, TimS wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We already know how it really works: an unelected dictatorship with no
>>>> opposition and with the public having no opportunity to affect that.
>>>>
>>> And the irony is, that the links he supplied totally confirm that!
>>
>> No they don't read them properly and stop lying about the EU.
>
> I did read them properly, But I cant help you being in denial and not
> reading them properly yourself.

No you didn't, you're just lying again, quote the parts that say the the
EU is an unelected dictatorship.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 21/12/2021 23:25, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
> On 21 Dec 2021 22:08:14 GMT, TimS wrote:
>>
>> Ah, a bit like the EU then, that tried and failed in the Balkans. NATO
>> had to come and save them.
>
> The EU has never had a military so, by definition, NATO could not have
> 'come in and saved them'.

+1, TimS is just another bigoted anti-EU liar.

> If you want the whole story, read "Eastern Approaches" by Fitzroy Mclean,
> who was there during the 2nd half of WW2 and knew Tito really well. The
> book is a rattling good read, too: the old boy did some amazing
> travelling pre-war and was a founding member of the SAS during it, but I
> digress.

+1 again, an excellent book.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 22/12/2021 11:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> EU has always strutted and fretted its hour upon the stage, hiding
> behind the skirts of NATO, telling tales invented by idiots, full of
> moral indignation and
> signifying nothing.

If you're going to attempt to quote Shakespeare, get the quote right

> I have come to the conclusions that those who want to return to it, are
> like the plantation slaves of the deep south, who, shorn of their
> shackles, wept, because now they couldn't handle not being told what to do.

I have come to the conclusion that people like you are just liars who
can't accept being proven wrong about something, which is strange,
because you've been proven wrong about so many things, so it's not as
though you've lacked the opportunity to see the fuck ups that result
from your errant opinions.

> Cradle to the grave socialism, that's what those slaves had.

Cradle to the grave exploitation by the worst excesses of capitalism,
that's what those slaves had.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 22/12/2021 12:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> The face of the enemy on the other side of the asymmetry is
> ExtinctionRebellion, Black LivesMatter, Greenpeace...etc etc. All good
> AgitProp teams ready to create as much dissension within a culture as
> possible. Mind fuck versus hi tech.

The real face of the real enemy is those like you who constantly lie
about UK politics.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 22/12/2021 11:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> Examine the myth of 'equality'.  Mediaeval society realised that
> literacy and numeracy were pointless in and unaffordable by the
> labouring classes. Basically you could have a few educated people, or no
> educated people.
>
> They decided on the former, and society prospered
>
> Today we have the latter, and society is collapsing

What an absurd statement, levels of general education are higher in the
last century or so than they ever were in Medieval times.

> What works, is what works. Today's progressive 'full Marx for everyone'
> society will either succeed in creating willing slaves of us all, or it
> will collapse due to lack of anybody with any specialist skills. Or in
> fact both.

None of us, except possibly those in communist states, lives under 'full
Marx for everyone'.

> And someone who hits on a nasty repressive illiberal and totally fascist
> solution will come in and take over.

And you do your best by constant bigoted lying to create circumstances
where such an occurrence becomes more likely.

> Take your pick between Islam and the CCP.  They know what to do with
> LBGT and dissidents in an overpopulated world....

You wouldn't last five minutes under either.

> The Liberal Left are all romantic hand wavey ideologues focussing on
> what their simple minds conceive the world *ought* to be.

Which is why you are still allowed to continue to live and lie.

> Whilst completely ignoring the hard inescapable reality of what it
> actually *is*. Outside of their 'safe space' kindergartens.

You're the one ignoring reality here. You live in a paranoid world of
your bigoted delusions, that no-one else recognises.

> Well if it lasts, I will be surprised. Its not nearly as stable as a
> police state.

A good thing.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 22/12/2021 16:27, Java Jive wrote:
> Ask the same questions about the UK government!  How do yo get rid of a
> proven liar while holding office, who therefore should be detained at
> her majesty's pleasure in one of Her Majesty's prisons, not Her
> Majesty's Prime Minister's accommodation, and has betrayed the best
> interests of the country, and allowed thousands of its citizens to die
> avoidably, and who wasn't elected by the majority of the electorate?

You give him a sinecure with the EU and send him off to be middle east
envoy, after first having voted him out and the tories in.

I assume of course you meant Blair. Well it took some doing for people
to realise what a lying twofaced britain hating cunt he was, but we know
now.

And so he has become persona non grata in politics.

Since the ridiculous lib/con pact we have kept the same party in power,
but sacked two PMs and are well on the way to getting rid of the third.

The way it works is quite simple. A by election is held, and because it
doesn't matter and because people are royally pissed off with the
government, they either stay at home or voted for whoever isn't the
government that had the best chance of winning ( the way they voters in
the US for anyone who wasn't Trump, and got even worse, but that's
another story)

This puts the willies up the backbench MPs, who think if it can happen
to a 10,000 majority, it sure can happen to me, and they start sending
letters of no confidence to the party , and if enough are received there
is a vote of no confidence in the leader, and if it is passed, he
resigns and the party selects another leader, and that means going to
the party members in the shires, and so they actually get a democratic
vote, and if you are not a party member you don't, but that's your problem.

And that is how British democracy works. Its convoluted, imperfect, but
it does mean that if Boris doesn't shape up, he wont be leading the
tories into the next election and Princess Nut Nutz can fuck off too.

I am less clear how it happens in the labour party, but corbyn was
sacked when he proved a vote loser

None of that is possible in the EU. The officials are immune from
prosecution and can only be dismissed by a unanimous vote, which has
never ever happened.

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

On 22/12/2021 10:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/12/2021 18:40, Java Jive wrote:
>> On 21/12/2021 14:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> When are you going to stop lying about the EU???!!!
>>>>
>>> When are you?
>>
>> I posted links that explain how EU democracy actually works, that is
>> not lying, whereas you are always spouting lies about the EU.
>>
>>>> This is how the EU actually works, either read and understand it, or
>>>> don't bother and stop speaking out of your arse about things that
>>>> you can't be arsed to understand:
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission
>>>
>>> Those  exactly confirms what I have said, the European parliament is
>>> an 'upper' house only - it does not debate policy, merely rubber
>>> stamps it.

FALSE! "The Parliament is the "first institution" of the European Union
(mentioned first in its treaties and having ceremonial precedence over
the other EU institutions),[8] and shares equal legislative and
budgetary powers with the Council (except on a few issues where the
special legislative procedures apply). It likewise has equal control
over the EU budget. Ultimately, the European Commission, which serves as
the executive branch of the EU, is accountable to Parliament. In
particular, Parliament can decide whether or not to approve the European
Council's nominee for President of the Commission, and is further tasked
with approving (or rejecting) the appointment of the Commission as a
whole. It can subsequently force the current Commission to resign by
adopting a motion of censure.[6]"

For example, the proposed legislation on USB-C connectors for portable
devices was initiated the European Parliament asking the Commission to
come up with legislative proposals, exactly contrary to what you claim
above.

>>> The council has no power to initaiate or execute policy. it is just
>>> another taklkingshop

FALSE! "The European Council (informally EUCO) is a collegiate body
that defines the overall political directions and priorities of the
European Union. It is composed of the heads of state or government of
the EU member states, along with the President of the European Council
and the President of the European Commission. The High Representative of
the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy also takes part in its
meetings.[1] Established as an informal summit in 1975, the European
Council was formalised as an institution in 2009 upon the commencement
of the Treaty of Lisbon. [...]"

>>> Only the unelected commissioners initiate policy, and they do so
>>> according to whatever takes their fancy, or whoever lines their bank
>>> accounts
FALSE! See contrary example above.

>> ALL FALSE! READ THE LINKS AND STOP LYING!

As proven above.

> Read the links which confirm what I say, and show you are lying, and
> calm down,

Quote the parts that say what you claim above.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 22/12/2021 16:30, Java Jive wrote:
> On 22/12/2021 11:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 21/12/2021 18:45, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/12/2021 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 21/12/2021 09:20, TimS wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We already know how it really works: an unelected dictatorship with no
>>>>> opposition and with the public having no opportunity to affect that.
>>>>>
>>>> And the irony is, that the links he supplied totally confirm that!
>>>
>>> No they don't read them properly and stop lying about the EU.
>>
>> I did read them properly, But I cant help you being in denial and not
>> reading them properly yourself.
>
> No you didn't, you're just lying again, quote the parts that say the the
> EU is an unelected dictatorship.
>
no, you tell me how anyone in the EU can remove von der leyen or any
commissioner by means of a democratic vote.

The USSR had elections too, and called itself a democracy.

But most people would say it was in the end an unelected dictatorship,
and only one party ever won, and the people who ran it were all selected
by officials from that party.

If you want to live in a neo communist/fascist totalitarian state,
fuck off and move.

I don't and Brexit won. More people in Britain wanted to leave it than
wanted to stay.

British democracy is always about how to change the CEO without having
to behead him and have a civil war.

EU is all about never being able to change the CEO except by having a
civil war, as les gilet jaunes will tell you

--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

On 22/12/2021 16:34, Java Jive wrote:
> Fake news kills!
>

That makes you a murderer then

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

On 22 Dec 2021 at 17:08:47 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

> On 22/12/2021 16:30, Java Jive wrote:
>> On 22/12/2021 11:04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/12/2021 18:45, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 21/12/2021 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 21/12/2021 09:20, TimS wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We already know how it really works: an unelected dictatorship with no
>>>>>> opposition and with the public having no opportunity to affect that.
>>>>>>
>>>>> And the irony is, that the links he supplied totally confirm that!
>>>>
>>>> No they don't read them properly and stop lying about the EU.
>>>
>>> I did read them properly, But I cant help you being in denial and not
>>> reading them properly yourself.
>>
>> No you didn't, you're just lying again, quote the parts that say the the
>> EU is an unelected dictatorship.
>>
> no, you tell me how anyone in the EU can remove von der leyen or any
> commissioner by means of a democratic vote.
>
> The USSR had elections too, and called itself a democracy.
>
> But most people would say it was in the end an unelected dictatorship,
> and only one party ever won, and the people who ran it were all selected
> by officials from that party.
>
> If you want to live in a neo communist/fascist totalitarian state,
> fuck off and move.
>
> I don't and Brexit won. More people in Britain wanted to leave it than
> wanted to stay.
>
> British democracy is always about how to change the CEO without having
> to behead him and have a civil war.
>
> EU is all about never being able to change the CEO except by having a
> civil war, as les gilet jaunes will tell you

Protests in EU countries are always notably violent. The people tend to think
that the state knows best, but they also know that having an election in their
country rarely solves anything, as the same lists of people get elected every
time.

Poor old JJ. He keeps posting links, as if documenting the undemocratic nature
of the EU somehow excuses it.

--
Tim