Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>> On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
>>> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
>>>> 'hygiene'.
>>>
>>> I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
>>> with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.
>>>
>>> [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
>>> campaign ?
>>
>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a
>> comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?
>
> Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If anything, it
> is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your immune system,
> hijacks it, and then turns it against you. Certain gene sequences of
> the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found in the HIV virus.

Approx twelve months ago (late-2020), University of Queensland in
combination with Australia's Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had to give
up on their CoViD-19 Anti-Vax development because it was giving False
HIV indications, so that sort of supports your last statement, Aragon.

<Snip>

--
Daniel

Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> writes:
> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>> Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If anything,
>> it is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your immune
>> system, hijacks it, and then turns it against you. Certain gene
>> sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found in the
>> HIV virus.
>
> Approx twelve months ago (late-2020), University of Queensland in
> combination with Australia's Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had to
> give up on their CoViD-19 Anti-Vax development because it was giving
> False HIV indications, so that sort of supports your last statement,
> Aragon.

It doesn’t do anything of the sort. The CSL vaccine generated false
positives for HIV tests because one of the components of the vaccine
(gp41) also appears in retroviruses. As far as I know the connection
between HIV and SARS-Cov-2 exists inside Aragorn’s head and nowhere
else.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>>>
>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a
>>> comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?

Because covid-19 is even more easily transmissible, because people can
become infectious to others before or without ever knowing that they
themselves are infected and therefore should self-isolate, and because
it's a new virus and therefore most people have only very limited if any
pre-existing anti-body and T-cell defences against it, though I believe
there is some suggestion of some immunity in some people from similarity
to a common cold virus.

>> Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease.  If anything, it
>> is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your immune system,
>> hijacks it, and then turns it against you.  Certain gene sequences of
>> the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found in the HIV virus.

Provenance? Certainly covid-19 can affect more than just the
respiratory system, but I've not heard the above claim before, and I
think you may be confusing it with ...

> Approx twelve months ago (late-2020), University of Queensland in
> combination with Australia's Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had to give
> up on their CoViD-19 Anti-Vax development because it was giving False
> HIV indications, so that sort of supports your last statement, Aragon.

No, as it happened I watched a programme that explained this only last
night, and I believe the above to be garbled misrecollection. AIUI,
what actually happened is that The University Of Queensland used as part
of their vaccine not just a deactivated section of the covid-19
SARS-Cov-2 genome, but also for some reason a deactivated section of the
HIV virus genome, and an unfortunate side-effect of the latter was that
their vaccine triggered false positives in many commonly used HIV tests,
which made the vaccine, although efficacious in generating an immune
response to SARS-Cov-2, unworkable in practice, and this was why it had
to be abandoned. I am not aware of any reliable suggestion that
inherently SARS-Cov-2 has much if anything in common with HIV, apart
from them both being a virus.

Sadly, I don't think you'll be able to watch this outside the UK:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000x2tf/horizon-2021-1-horizon-special-the-vaccine

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
>> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>>>>
>>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a
>>>> comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?

It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die. And the vaccines
are far less effective than for covid. It is just that the probability
of dying is far less than for civid, and like car accidents we are
willing to live with that low probability. (also the probability of
dying is more evenly spread, not concentrated with age as civid is)

Note that if more people got vaccinated, the disease WOULD become of
similar virulence to flu.
>
> Because covid-19 is even more easily transmissible, because people can
> become infectious to others before or without ever knowing that they
> themselves are infected and therefore should self-isolate,i
Except people with flu do not self isolate They struggle in to work for
fear of being labeled wuusses, and thus spread it.

> and because
> it's a new virus and therefore most people have only very limited if any
> pre-existing anti-body and T-cell defences against it, though I believe
> there is some suggestion of some immunity in some people from similarity
> to a common cold virus.
>
>>> Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease.  If anything, it

Covid is most definitely a respiratory disease. As long covid shows it
can ALSO attack orther aspects of the body.

>>> is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your immune system,
>>> hijacks it, and then turns it against you.  Certain gene sequences of
>>> the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found in the HIV virus.
>
> Provenance? Certainly covid-19 can affect more than just the
> respiratory system, but I've not heard the above claim before, and I
> think you may be confusing it with ...

Part of his confusion is the way it kills is by overactivating the
defences-- the cytokine storm. It is a respiratory infection, which can
overactivate one part of the immune respose, and drown you in the body's
attemt to wash away the problem-- like in pneumonia or many other
respiratory diseases. The virus does not create water. The body does in
response to the infection. That has nothing to do with "the virus
attacks your immune system..."

>
>> Approx twelve months ago (late-2020), University of Queensland in
>> combination with Australia's Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had to give
>> up on their CoViD-19 Anti-Vax development because it was giving False
>> HIV indications, so that sort of supports your last statement, Aragon.

read
https://science.thewire.in/health/queensland-covid-19-vaccine-hiv-protein/
from 10 months ago which I got from googling "covid vaccine Queensland
hiv"

>
> No, as it happened I watched a programme that explained this only last
> night, and I believe the above to be garbled misrecollection. AIUI,
> what actually happened is that The University Of Queensland used as part
> of their vaccine not just a deactivated section of the covid-19
> SARS-Cov-2 genome, but also for some reason a deactivated section of the
> HIV virus genome, and an unfortunate side-effect of the latter was that
> their vaccine triggered false positives in many commonly used HIV tests,
> which made the vaccine, although efficacious in generating an immune
> response to SARS-Cov-2, unworkable in practice, and this was why it had
> to be abandoned. I am not aware of any reliable suggestion that
> inherently SARS-Cov-2 has much if anything in common with HIV, apart
> from them both being a virus.
>
> Sadly, I don't think you'll be able to watch this outside the UK:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000x2tf/horizon-2021-1-horizon-special-the-vaccine
>

On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 22:36:38 +1100
Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
> > On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
> >> On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
> >> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
> >>> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
> >>>> 'hygiene'.
> >>>
> >>> I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
> >>> with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.
> >>>
> >>> [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
> >>> campaign ?
> >>
> >> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which
> >> is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
> >> size?
> >
> > Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If
> > anything, it is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your
> > immune system, hijacks it, and then turns it against you. Certain
> > gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found
> > in the HIV virus.
>
> Approx twelve months ago (late-2020), University of Queensland in
> combination with Australia's Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had to
> give up on their CoViD-19 Anti-Vax development because it was giving
> False HIV indications, so that sort of supports your last statement,
> Aragon.

But that's what happens *after* infection. Covid is spread by
respiration and initially latches onto receptors in the lungs, the
so-called ACE2 for which Covid seems to have been specifically
engineered. In other words, you catch Covid and flu (and other
coronaviruses, rhinoviruses etc.) by the same physical mechanism, and
the same physical defences ought to be roughly equally effective (or
ineffective) for all of them.

--
Joe

On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> > On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
> >> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
> >>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
> >>>>
> >>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which
> >>>> is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
> >>>> size?
>
> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8

https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png

"The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21 season —
the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and there was only one
paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal influenza deaths so
far in 2021, compared with between 100 and 1,200 in previous years."

--
Joe

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:52:36 +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> > On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
>> >> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>> >>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which
>> >>>> is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
>> >>>> size?
>>
>> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8
>
> https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png
>
> "The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21 season —
> the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and there was only one
> paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal influenza deaths so
> far in 2021, compared with between 100 and 1,200 in previous years."

Well, you can thank COVID-19 for that.
The protocols put in place for COVID-19
were Very Effective against the flu.

On 2021-10-25, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 22:36:38 +1100
> Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>
>> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>> > On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>> >> On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
>> >> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> >>> On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
>> >>> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
>> >>>> 'hygiene'.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
>> >>> with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.
>> >>>
>> >>> [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
>> >>> campaign ?
>> >>
>> >> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which
>> >> is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
>> >> size?
>> >
>> > Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If
>> > anything, it is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your
>> > immune system, hijacks it, and then turns it against you. Certain
>> > gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found
>> > in the HIV virus.
>>
>> Approx twelve months ago (late-2020), University of Queensland in
>> combination with Australia's Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had to
>> give up on their CoViD-19 Anti-Vax development because it was giving
>> False HIV indications, so that sort of supports your last statement,
>> Aragon.
>
> But that's what happens *after* infection. Covid is spread by
> respiration and initially latches onto receptors in the lungs, the
> so-called ACE2 for which Covid seems to have been specifically
> engineered. In other words, you catch Covid and flu (and other
> coronaviruses, rhinoviruses etc.) by the same physical mechanism, and
> the same physical defences ought to be roughly equally effective (or
> ineffective) for all of them.

guests and burglers arrive at your house in the same way, by car, and
thus the behaviour of guests and burglers should be the same. Note that
measles is also and airborn disease (far more infectious than covid) so
they should behave the same way. Sheesh. They are different viruses.
They behave differently in the body. They latch onto different proteins
of which they are millions in the body.

Yes, they are all respiratory diseases, but after that they differ by a
lot.

>

On 2021-10-25, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> > On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
>> >> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>> >>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which
>> >>>> is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
>> >>>> size?
>>
>> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8
>
> https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png
>
> "The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21 season —
> the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and there was only one
> paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal influenza deaths so
> far in 2021, compared with between 100 and 1,200 in previous years."

Yes, the reason was that people stayed inside and away from other people
because of covid, but that is also a good way of preventing flu
transmission.
And now that people have stopped being afraid of covid, flus will also
jump up. (Australia is still in covid lockdown)
>

On 25/10/2021 15:44, Joe wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 22:36:38 +1100
> Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>
>> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>>>
>>> Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If
>>> anything, it is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your
>>> immune system, hijacks it, and then turns it against you. Certain
>>> gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found
>>> in the HIV virus.

To repeat what I said in my other reply, covid-19 is primarily a
respiratory disease, as that is the method it is spread most easily, but
it can enter your body by other means as well.

>> Approx twelve months ago (late-2020), University of Queensland in
>> combination with Australia's Commonwealth Serum Laboratories had to
>> give up on their CoViD-19 Anti-Vax development because it was giving
>> False HIV indications, so that sort of supports your last statement,
>> Aragon.

As already explained, this is nothing to do with SARS-Cov-2 being like
HIV, it was because the UoQ vaccine used part of the HIV genome in their
vaccine, with the unfortunate side-effect that those who were vaccinated
by it in trials gave false positives for various commonly used HIV
tests, which rendered it impracticable.

> But that's what happens *after* infection. Covid is spread by
> respiration and initially latches onto receptors in the lungs, the
> so-called ACE2

Yes, but many other cells around the body have ACE2 receptors as well,
and therefore the virus has multiple routes into the human body, and
although the easiest, and therefore the commonest, route in is by
air-borne virus, it's not the only method:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15141377/

"The most remarkable finding was the surface expression of ACE2 protein
on lung alveolar epithelial cells and enterocytes of the small
intestine. Furthermore, ACE2 was present in arterial and venous
endothelial cells and arterial smooth muscle cells in all organs
studied. In conclusion, ACE2 is abundantly present in humans in the
epithelia of the lung and small intestine, which might provide possible
routes of entry for the SARS-CoV."

> for which Covid seems to have been specifically engineered.

Nonsense, a virus jumping species is nothing new - it is just
evolution in action.

> In other words, you catch Covid and flu (and other
> coronaviruses, rhinoviruses etc.) by the same physical mechanism, and
> the same physical defences ought to be roughly equally effective (or
> ineffective) for all of them.

Yes, so the same measures for reducing the infection rates of covid-19
are even more effective against colds and flu.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

What has *any* of this got to do with the subject?

--
Basic

On 25 Oct 2021 15:37:57 GMT
Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:52:36 +0100, Joe wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
> > William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> >> > On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
> >> >> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
> >> >>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid,
> >> >>>> which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus
> >> >>>> of similar size?
> >>
> >> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.
> >
> > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8
> >
> > https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png
> >
> > "The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21
> > season — the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and there
> > was only one paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal
> > influenza deaths so far in 2021, compared with between 100 and
> > 1,200 in previous years."
>
> Well, you can thank COVID-19 for that.
> The protocols put in place for COVID-19
> were Very Effective against the flu.

But not anything like as effective against Covid, which by coincidence
registered about the same order of magnitude of winter deaths as flu
normally does.

--
Joe

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 18:39:31 +0100, Java Jive wrote:

"[Think of it as|its just] evolution in action." ;-)

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 2021-10-25, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

> Yes, but many other cells around the body have ACE2 receptors as well,
> and therefore the virus has multiple routes into the human body, and
> although the easiest, and therefore the commonest, route in is by
> air-borne virus, it's not the only method:
>
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15141377/
>
> "The most remarkable finding was the surface expression of ACE2 protein
> on lung alveolar epithelial cells and enterocytes of the small
> intestine. Furthermore, ACE2 was present in arterial and venous
> endothelial cells and arterial smooth muscle cells in all organs
> studied. In conclusion, ACE2 is abundantly present in humans in the
> epithelia of the lung and small intestine, which might provide possible
> routes of entry for the SARS-CoV."

Notice the key words "might" "possible"
Meaning: We have not a ghost of an idea whether this is the case or not
(and there is zero evidence that it has ever happened) but it is perhaps
worth spending some money on it to see if it could happend that way.

On 10/25/21 2:23 PM, Folderol wrote:
> What has *any* of this got to do with the subject?
>

Absolutely NONE so far as I can tell ... even
going back lots of generations of the thread.

I'm not sure there CAN be a war on general-purpose
computing ... it's where all the special-purpose
stuff is planned and written.

A war on power users maybe ... The Big Corporations
badly want a total return to thin clients and
servers so they can charge for every second. All
online, all metered, all data harvested, all
THEIRS.

On 2021-10-25, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> On 25 Oct 2021 15:37:57 GMT
> Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:52:36 +0100, Joe wrote:
>> > On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
>> > William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >> > On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
>> >> >> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>> >> >>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid,
>> >> >>>> which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus
>> >> >>>> of similar size?
>> >>
>> >> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.
>> >
>> > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8
>> >
>> > https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png
>> >
>> > "The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21
>> > season — the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and there

and for covid over half a million.

>> > was only one paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal
>> > influenza deaths so far in 2021, compared with between 100 and
>> > 1,200 in previous years."
>>
>> Well, you can thank COVID-19 for that.
>> The protocols put in place for COVID-19
>> were Very Effective against the flu.
>
> But not anything like as effective against Covid, which by coincidence
> registered about the same order of magnitude of winter deaths as flu
> normally does.

Not even close. The excess deaths in the world almost certainly from covid are of the
order of 15,000,000. Nowhere has the flu totally swamped the hospitals.
except perhaps the Spanish flu.

William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote in
news:sl7v9u$6sp$1@dont-email.me:

> On 2021-10-25, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>> On 25 Oct 2021 15:37:57 GMT
>> Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:52:36 +0100, Joe wrote:
>>> > On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
>>> > William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> >> > On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
>>> >> >> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>>> >> >>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid,
>>> >> >>>> which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus
>>> >> >>>> of similar size?
>>> >>
>>> >> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.
>>> >
>>> > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8
>>> >
>>> > https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d
>>> > 41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png
>>> >
>>> > "The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21
>>> > season — the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and
>>> > there
>
> and for covid over half a million.
>
>>> > was only one paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal
>>> > influenza deaths so far in 2021, compared with between 100 and
>>> > 1,200 in previous years."
>>>
>>> Well, you can thank COVID-19 for that.
>>> The protocols put in place for COVID-19
>>> were Very Effective against the flu.
>>
>> But not anything like as effective against Covid, which by
>> coincidence registered about the same order of magnitude of winter
>> deaths as flu normally does.
>
> Not even close. The excess deaths in the world almost certainly from
> covid are of the order of 15,000,000. Nowhere has the flu totally
> swamped the hospitals. except perhaps the Spanish flu.

Yah, and there has been no death from natural causes in the USA since
COVID was identified. Everyone who dies now has died of COVID. Nobody
dies of old age, cancer, drug OD, or heart attack. Everyone died of
COVID. The USA has approximately 7,821 people die every day and they all
die from COVID.

This is what all those people died from before Democrats schemed to use
COVID as an excuse to steal an election.

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 659,041
Cancer: 599,601
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
Alzheimer�s disease: 121,499
Diabetes: 87,647
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
Influenza and Pneumonia: 49,783
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511
Intentional self�harm (suicide) by discharge of firearms: 23,941
Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms: 14,414
Dementia-related causes: 271,872

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf

On 26/10/2021 08:32, sanoman wrote:
>
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote in
> news:sl7v9u$6sp$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>> On 2021-10-25, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 25 Oct 2021 15:37:57 GMT
>>> Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:52:36 +0100, Joe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8
>>>>>
>>>>> https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d
>>>>> 41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png
>>>>>
>>>>> "The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21
>>>>> season — the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and
>>>>> there
>>
>> and for covid over half a million.
>>
>>>>> was only one paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal
>>>>> influenza deaths so far in 2021, compared with between 100 and
>>>>> 1,200 in previous years."
>>>>
>>>> Well, you can thank COVID-19 for that.
>>>> The protocols put in place for COVID-19
>>>> were Very Effective against the flu.
>>>
>>> But not anything like as effective against Covid, which by
>>> coincidence registered about the same order of magnitude of winter
>>> deaths as flu normally does.
>>
>> Not even close. The excess deaths in the world almost certainly from
>> covid are of the order of 15,000,000. Nowhere has the flu totally
>> swamped the hospitals. except perhaps the Spanish flu.
>
> Yah, and there has been no death from natural causes in the USA since
> COVID was identified. Everyone who dies now has died of COVID. Nobody
> dies of old age, cancer, drug OD, or heart attack. Everyone died of
> COVID. The USA has approximately 7,821 people die every day and they all
> die from COVID.

Utter nonsense, see below.

> This is what all those people died from before Democrats schemed to use
> COVID as an excuse to steal an election.
>
> Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
> Heart disease: 659,041
> Cancer: 599,601
> Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
> Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
> Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
> Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
> Diabetes: 87,647
> Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
> Influenza and Pneumonia: 49,783
> Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511
> Intentional self–harm (suicide) by discharge of firearms: 23,941
> Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms: 14,414
> Dementia-related causes: 271,872
>
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf

Figures appear to have been cherry-picked from Table 6 p40 in above.
For example ...

> Heart disease: 659,041

.... is a subcategory of

Major cardiovascular diseases 869,883

.... and so on throughout the table, but the title of the table contains
the following warning as a subtitle ...

"[Only selected causes of deaths are shown; therefore, subcategories do
not add to totals; see Technical Notes in this report]"

.... and for this reason it is misleading to quote sub-category figures
in isolation without also quoting the full category figures together
with the above warning.

Why this has been done presumably has a political motivation related to
the absurd claim: "Democrats schemed to use COVID as an excuse to steal
an election." No-one needed to scheme to use covid-19 to 'steal' the
election, Trump's appalling record on the pandemic is sufficient
condemnation in and of itself. As proof of the claim's absurdity, let's
now look at the figures for 2019 and the provisional ones for 2020 side
by side, preferably from the same source so that we can be sure that the
two years have been treated alike, and preferably using the same source
material as the CDC, so that they are also comparable with those quoted
above. I think we have that here, as one of the authors, Farida B
Ahmad, also compiles the CDC figures, and for those that are interested,
the original table also contains data from 2015 onwards:

The Leading Causes of Death in the US for 2020
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234

Cause 2019 2020 Difference
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Heart Disease 659,041 690,882 +4.83%
Cancer 599,601 598,932 -0.11%
Covid-19 345,323 na
Unintentional Injuries 173,040 192,176 +11.06%
Stroke 150,005 159,050 +6.03%
Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases 156,979 151,637 -3.40%
Alzheimer Disease 121,499 133,382 +9.78%
Diabetes 87,647 101,106 +15.36%
Influenza & Pneumonia 49,783 53,495 +7.46%
Kidney Disease 51,565 52,260 +1.35%
Suicide 47,511 44,834 -5.63%
===================================================================
Total 2,854,838 3,358,814 +17.65%

So most of the figures for 2020 are in the same ball-park as those for
2019, although there are some anomalies, such as why, during a year
containing lockdowns, was there an increase in 'Unintentional Injuries',
what the rest of us might call 'Accidents'? The similar increase in
Diabetes is more easily explicable, as it is a risk factor for severe
covid-19, so there will be some cases where the primary cause of death
is adjudged to be diabetes, but the onset may have been significantly
hastened by covid-19, while the figures above give only primary causes
of death, so these cases would appear under diabetes, not covid-19.

There is nothing inexplicable or completely unexpected here, so where's
the alleged great conspiracy?

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 23:59:47 -0400
1p166 <z24ba6.net> wrote:

>On 10/25/21 2:23 PM, Folderol wrote:
>> What has *any* of this got to do with the subject?
>>
>
> Absolutely NONE so far as I can tell ... even
> going back lots of generations of the thread.
>
> I'm not sure there CAN be a war on general-purpose
> computing ... it's where all the special-purpose
> stuff is planned and written.
>
> A war on power users maybe ... The Big Corporations
> badly want a total return to thin clients and
> servers so they can charge for every second. All
> online, all metered, all data harvested, all
> THEIRS.
>
Indeed!
And with more and more going online (looking at you webassembly) it's getting
harder to keep some semblance of control and security :(

--
Basic

On 26/10/2021 04:59, 1p166 wrote:
> On 10/25/21 2:23 PM, Folderol wrote:
>> What has *any* of this got to do with the subject?
>>
>
>   Absolutely NONE so far as I can tell ... even
>   going back lots of generations of the thread.
>
>   I'm not sure there CAN be a war on general-purpose
>   computing ... it's where all the special-purpose
>   stuff is planned and written.
>
>   A war on power users maybe ... The Big Corporations
>   badly want a total return to thin clients and
>   servers so they can charge for every second. All
>   online, all metered, all data harvested, all
>   THEIRS.
>

Well its all rather emotive language about something that is shifting as
the relative speed and power of networks and CPUs change over time.

What is clear is that if you are maintaining a big app with thousands
upon thousands of customers, its a damned sight cheaper to charge them
rental and run the code on a server and let them access it via a browser
or relatively thin client.

Think support:

"Your program doesnt work"
"Have you tried ALT-F7->gribbulate?"
"ALT- F7 doesnt work on your code!
"Oh ah, which versions do you have?"
"How would I know"?
"go alt-H->about"
"Ok version 2.23"
"We dont support that version you need to upgrade to 8.3 at least"
"How do I do that?"
"On Windows 10..."
"I have windows XP"
"Well sir, then you are fucked, We don't support that platform any more"

How much easier to say 'as long as your browser is IE8 or more or
Firefox 10 or more or... then you will be running the latest version of
our code...

...on MacosX winders and Linux/BSD unix too.

Most users of apps dont *want* to know how it works, they just want it
to work, and if they are paying for it, to have a way to fix it when it
doesn't.

Renting time share on a cloud app is exactly what they love.

Like contract hire on a car. Brand new car, all the features, service
included for the first two years, no need to take responsibility for any
of it....just pay the monthly fee.

There are of course situations where you need local computing power and
bandwidth, but they are fewer and fewer.

Content generators
Application designers
OS maintainers
Players of real time games.
Highly specialised computationally intensive technical programs

Everything else can by done via a web interface

--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

On 2021-10-26, sanoman <sanoman@gmail.com> wrote:
> William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote in
> news:sl7v9u$6sp$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 2021-10-25, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>> On 25 Oct 2021 15:37:57 GMT
>>> Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 15:52:36 +0100, Joe wrote:
>>>> > On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:56:59 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> > William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 2021-10-24, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >> > On 24/10/2021 12:36, Daniel65 wrote:
>>>> >> >> Aragorn wrote on 30/3/21 7:54 am:
>>>> >> >>> On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid,
>>>> >> >>>> which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus
>>>> >> >>>> of similar size?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It han't. Every year millions get the flu and many die.
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02558-8
>>>> >
>>>> > https://media.nature.com/lw800/magazine-assets/d41586-021-02558-8/d
>>>> > 41586-021-02558-8_19770944.png
>>>> >
>>>> > "The United States recorded just 646 flu deaths in the 2020–21
>>>> > season — the annual average is in the tens of thousands — and
>>>> > there
>>
>> and for covid over half a million.
>>
>>>> > was only one paediatric flu death. Australia has had no seasonal
>>>> > influenza deaths so far in 2021, compared with between 100 and
>>>> > 1,200 in previous years."
>>>>
>>>> Well, you can thank COVID-19 for that.
>>>> The protocols put in place for COVID-19
>>>> were Very Effective against the flu.
>>>
>>> But not anything like as effective against Covid, which by
>>> coincidence registered about the same order of magnitude of winter
>>> deaths as flu normally does.
>>
>> Not even close. The excess deaths in the world almost certainly from
>> covid are of the order of 15,000,000. Nowhere has the flu totally
>> swamped the hospitals. except perhaps the Spanish flu.
>
> Yah, and there has been no death from natural causes in the USA since
> COVID was identified. Everyone who dies now has died of COVID. Nobody

That is NOT what EXCESS deaths means. You go back to say 2015 and look
at how many deaths there were for 2015-2019. You subtract that from the
total deaths in 2020 or 2021 and that is the excess deaths. SO yes,
poeple also died from "old age, cancer, drugOD, heart attack, car
accidents..." But in addition they died of covid. There is no reason why
any of those other causes would have gone up in 2020 (in fact the some
of them you might have expected to go down) except covid. In many parts
of the world testing for covid is just not done much, either politically
(the rulers do not want to know that their country is dying from covid
and noone cares) or they do not have the money to do so. That does not
mean people do not die from covid, so excess deaths is a reasonable
measure of how many died from covid, since it is what distigushes post
2020 from pre2020.

> dies of old age, cancer, drug OD, or heart attack. Everyone died of
> COVID. The USA has approximately 7,821 people die every day and they all
> die from COVID.
>
> This is what all those people died from before Democrats schemed to use
> COVID as an excuse to steal an election.

Oh horseshit. Again you have no idea what you are talking about.

>
> Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
> Heart disease: 659,041
> Cancer: 599,601
> Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
> Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
> Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
> Alzheimer?s disease: 121,499
> Diabetes: 87,647
> Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
> Influenza and Pneumonia: 49,783
> Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511
> Intentional self?harm (suicide) by discharge of firearms: 23,941
> Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms: 14,414
> Dementia-related causes: 271,872
>
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-08-508.pdf
>

On 26/10/2021 05:13, William Unruh wrote:
> The excess deaths in the world almost certainly from covid are of the
> order of 15,000,000. Nowhere has the flu totally swamped the hospitals.
> except perhaps the Spanish flu.

I think that is all that need be said. COVID is like a very very nasty
variety of flu, and about 10 times nastier than ordinary flu.

Whether that justifies the public health measures that were taken is
something we will learn after it is over unfortunately. I simply don't
think the data existed to do more than take a calculated risk at the outset.

Certainly in the UK the metric seemed to be at the political level to
limit contact and up hygiene standards until the hospitals could just
cope, whilst allowing pretty much unrestricted travel. That changed
later on.

I don't find that unreasonable. The public would not have stood for
people dying in droves, and they wouldn't stand for protracted
lockdowns. At some level politicians had to balance those two
conflicting requirements and come up with policy in pretty much an
information vacuum

As it is there are now many vaccines to pick from that offer some degree
of protection against the more serious forms of the disease, and seem to
have reduced the transmission rates in the population sectors that have
been vaccinated. And treatment regimes have been improved as 'stuff that
works' has replaced 'stuff that might work' in treating serious cases.

In short, in a year or so, we will be in the admirable position of
knowing exactly what we ought to have been doing all along....

--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:29:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Renting time share on a cloud app is exactly what they love.
>
And, to give M$ their due, using Office365 applications is almost exactly
that (even if some of the just plain folks using them still manage to
screw up).

--

Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 26/10/2021 08:32, sanoman wrote:
> Yah, and there has been no death from natural causes in the USA since
> COVID was identified. Everyone who dies now has died of COVID. Nobody
> dies of old age, cancer, drug OD, or heart attack. Everyone died of
> COVID. The USA has approximately 7,821 people die every day and they all
> die from COVID.

That's bollocks and you know it, in the UK we saw a 10x increase in
mortality during the pandemic, irrespective of 'cause'

Causality in the real world is a very blunt instrument. If I break up
with my GF, get depressed, drink a bottle of scotch and then walk in
from of a bus, what 'caused' my death?

Angst, depression, whisky, a bus ,or blunt trauma to the head?. Take
your pick.

What we know is that the overall death rate sky rocketed, while deaths
from flu collapsed.

Some of those deaths are obviously down to lack of hospital access as
covid cases took up the bed space. Cancer death rates are up somewhat
for example.

But the coincidence of a 10x excess death rate over long term average
and COVID cannot be hand waved away by saying 'they really died of
pneumonia'

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 26/10/2021 14:44, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:29:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Renting time share on a cloud app is exactly what they love.
>>
> And, to give M$ their due, using Office365 applications is almost exactly
> that (even if some of the just plain folks using them still manage to
> screw up).
>
>
Yes. Back in around 2002 I was quoted the cost of running a desktop in
the City, for trading, was £3000 a year, in terms of hardware
maintenance and amortization, software licenses and support and in-house
support staff.

That is a heck of a lot of savings if you can outsource most of it to
the cloud.

The Boeing 707 set a world standard in aviation not because it was in
anyway a better performing aeroplane than its contemporaries, but
because given that after wheels tyres and brakes, the single thing that
needs most maintenance is engines, having them in pods under the wings
where they could be rapidly unbolted and replaced, while the faulty
units were shipped to a service centre for overhaul, meant that the
aircraft could do more fee earning passenger miles per year than their
contemporaries.

In the end jet engines mean more flights per aircraft per year and less
maintenance per aircraft per year. So more revenue per aircraft per year.

It was, in the end, that simple. And Boeing understood that.

I am not going to criticise Microsoft for that, or IBM for realising
that what their customers wanted was not computers, but a software
supplied service to enable their businesses to perform better.

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.