Java Jive wrote on 5/11/2021 1:43 am:
> On 04/11/2021 13:46, TimS wrote:

<Snip>

> I can only suggest that you spend some time learning about a subject
> before shooting your mouth off about it.  As someone whose name sadly
> escapes me, American I think, once so aptly said:  "It is better to keep
> your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open it
> and remove all shadow of doubt!"
>
Might that have been Mark Twain, perhaps?? Sounds about right!
--
Daniel

The Natural Philosopher wrote on 4/11/2021 4:34 am:
> On 03/11/2021 15:25, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2021 12:12:40 GMT TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 03 Nov 2021 at 10:35:59 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well when the question is whether the UK (a political entity)
>>>> is or is not inside Europe then the context is political
>>>
>>> Wrong as Europe is a geographical, not a political, entity.
>>
>> The UK is a political entity, as the first entity mentioned it
>> sets the context.
>>
> Europe however, is not.
>
> It's a bit like asking whether the United States has left North
> America.

Is it like when people are referring to "The United States of America"
but just say "America?? ;-P
--
Daniel

On 19/12/2021 09:37, Daniel65 wrote:
> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> FALSE!  It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>
>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>
>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>
>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>
>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>> be gotten rid of.
>>
>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>> time.
>>
> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!
The salient point is that the MEPs have no power whatsoever to change
anything. They are neither the originators nor the passers of policy.
They are in effect an 'upper house' a senate, a house of lords, who can
at best stop legislation if they can be bothered to read it or attend
parliament. Most do not. It is a purely ceremonial position.
In the EU, the power is with the commissioners and the various
Presidents none of who undergo popular election. Like every other
communist state a Party of bureacrats controls everything, the
elections are just for show, and nothing ever changes in response to
popular demand.
Lobbyists from multinational corporations dictate policy.
The people are there to buy their product and shut up.

There was in the end only one democratic vote that an EU nation could
have, and Britain took it.

Britain will now be destroyed for daring to.

Assisted by Zombie Joe.

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On 19/12/2021 10:06, Daniel65 wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote on 4/11/2021 4:34 am:
>> On 03/11/2021 15:25, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On 3 Nov 2021 12:12:40 GMT TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 03 Nov 2021 at 10:35:59 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>>>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well when the question is whether the UK (a political entity) is or
>>>>> is not inside Europe then the context is political
>>>>
>>>> Wrong as Europe is a geographical, not a political, entity.
>>>
>>> The UK is a political entity, as the first entity mentioned it
>>> sets the context.
>>>
>> Europe however, is not.
>>
>> It's a bit like asking whether the   United  States has left North
>> America.
>
> Is it like when people are referring to "The United States of America"
> but just say "America?? ;-P

Not exactly, although closer.

Remember that Russia is part of 'europe' but for example Turkey, is not
altogether...half of it is..
The assumptive close practised by those who favour the EU is to say
'Europe' when they mean the EU. as in 'Britain is leaving Europe' .

Of course it isn't.

And it is not even correct to say that the EU represents the citizens of
the 27 countries that still are in it. It doesn't. It represents a
narrow cadre of elitists, and some people who fund it to pass laws
favouring their (EU made) products.

Its currency is a shambles and has plunged its southern states into
poverty and debt, it has no army, it cannot police its borders as
millions of middle eastern immigrants flood in, and it is now in a state
of abject energy crisis because of it reliance on toy windmills and
solar panels.

Of course all politicians are see you next Tuesdays, BUT the dominant
feature of a democracy is that if enough people get seriously pissed
off, you can sack the bar stewards.

Britain sacked David Cameron, It sacked Theresa May and is now about to
sack Boris Johnson, because where he is going isn't where the people who
put him in power - rank and file voters - want to go.

And if his backbenchers know that they wont get elected as long as he is
there, they will turn on him like piranhas.

Ultimately British democracy is a delicate balance between looking after
an elite who fund the party, and an electorate who have to be convinced
it is working in their best interests.

That balance does not exist in the EU. And because the nations have
signed away their sovereignty, national elections make little difference.

Although there are signs that the ex sovbloc nations of Poland and
Hungary, used to dealing with the Kremlin, are resisting the Brussels
politburo.

The Baltic states of Lithuania Latvia and estonia, are openly talking
about Russian control - after all there seems to be little difference
between Brussels and the Kremlin.

Ultimately you have to ask whether a 19th century top down colonial
bureaucracy designed by an Italian communist is an appropriate way to
run a continent.

Time will tell.

--
There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org>
wrote:

> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>
>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>
>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>
>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>
>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>> be gotten rid of.
>>
>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>> time.
>>
> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!

Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With FPTP you
can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU parliament, there are
no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the next one on the list gets the
nod automatically. How's that for democracy!

--
Tim

On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 21:00:13 +1100, Daniel65 wrote:

> Java Jive wrote on 5/11/2021 1:43 am:
>> On 04/11/2021 13:46, TimS wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
>> I can only suggest that you spend some time learning about a subject
>> before shooting your mouth off about it.  As someone whose name sadly
>> escapes me, American I think, once so aptly said:  "It is better to
>> keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open
>> it and remove all shadow of doubt!"
>>
> Might that have been Mark Twain, perhaps?? Sounds about right!

Spot on! - I just looked it up: thought you were probably right but it is
also something Stephen Leacock might have said. This one of his seems
about right for here and now:

"American politicians do anything for money... English politicians take
the money and won't do anything."

On 19 Dec 2021 13:18:22 GMT, TimS wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65
> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>
>> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>>
>>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>>
>>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>>
>>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>>
>>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>>> be gotten rid of.
>>>
>>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>>> time.
>>>
>> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!
>
> Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With
> FPTP you can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU
> parliament, there are no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the
> next one on the list gets the nod automatically. How's that for
> democracy!

FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
Transferable Vote
if no candidate has a majority then the lowest candidate is removed &
their votes added to the 2nd choice candidate of each voter - repeat as
necessary (it may need a 3rd choice etc depending on the number of
candidates).

--
We're on Token Ring, and it looks like the token got loose.

On 19 Dec 2021 at 15:50:45 GMT, alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2021 13:18:22 GMT, TimS wrote:
>
>> On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65
>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>>
>>> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>>>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>>>
>>>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>>>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>>>
>>>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>>>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>>>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>>>> be gotten rid of.
>>>>
>>>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!
>>
>> Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With
>> FPTP you can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU
>> parliament, there are no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the
>> next one on the list gets the nod automatically. How's that for
>> democracy!
>
> FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
> Transferable Vote

No, it doesn't need replacing at all. Anyway we had a vote on this 10 years
ago, no dice.

--
Tim

On 19/12/2021 15:50, alister wrote:
> FPTP needs to be replaced
No, it doesn't.

It always - nearly always gives a clear working majority to a single party.
People who say it isn't 'fair' have a childish view of democracy. It
isn't there to 'represent the people' it is there to be able to sack the
executive without a (civil) war.

--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

On 19/12/2021 15:54, TimS wrote:
> On 19 Dec 2021 at 15:50:45 GMT, alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> On 19 Dec 2021 13:18:22 GMT, TimS wrote:
>>
>>> On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65
>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>>>>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>>>>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>>>>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>>>>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>>>>> be gotten rid of.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!
>>>
>>> Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With
>>> FPTP you can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU
>>> parliament, there are no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the
>>> next one on the list gets the nod automatically. How's that for
>>> democracy!
>>
>> FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
>> Transferable Vote
>
> No, it doesn't need replacing at all. Anyway we had a vote on this 10 years
> ago, no dice.
>
The disaster that no overall parliamentary majority becomes with
'proportional representation' is illustrated by a minority party with
perhaps only 10% of the popular vote becoming an indispensable coalition
partner and having more influence on government than Carrie Symonds.

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 19 Dec 2021 at 15:57:28 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

> On 19/12/2021 15:50, alister wrote:
>> FPTP needs to be replaced
> No, it doesn't.
>
> It always - nearly always gives a clear working majority to a single party.
> People who say it isn't 'fair' have a childish view of democracy. It
> isn't there to 'represent the people' it is there to be able to sack the
> executive without a (civil) war.

Unlike with the EU where the executive isn't sackable within the meaning of
the Act. Indeed, in the case of its president, we don't even know why or how
she was selected, by what process, and whether there were any other
candidates.

--
Tim

On 19 Dec 2021 at 16:09:55 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

> On 19/12/2021 15:54, TimS wrote:
>> On 19 Dec 2021 at 15:50:45 GMT, alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19 Dec 2021 13:18:22 GMT, TimS wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65
>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>>>>>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>>>>>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>>>>>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>>>>>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>>>>>> be gotten rid of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!
>>>>
>>>> Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With
>>>> FPTP you can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU
>>>> parliament, there are no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the
>>>> next one on the list gets the nod automatically. How's that for
>>>> democracy!
>>>
>>> FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
>>> Transferable Vote
>>
>> No, it doesn't need replacing at all. Anyway we had a vote on this 10 years
>> ago, no dice.
>>
> The disaster that no overall parliamentary majority becomes with
> 'proportional representation' is illustrated by a minority party with
> perhaps only 10% of the popular vote becoming an indispensable coalition
> partner and having more influence on government than Carrie Symonds.

I'm just re-reading my copy of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by
William Shirer. He has a lot to say about how the Weimar Republic's stability
was not helped by its PR system of selecting deputies - lots of small
single-issue parties.

--
Tim

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> And it is not even correct to say that the EU represents the citizens of
> the 27 countries that still are in it. It doesn't. It represents a
> narrow cadre of elitists, and some people who fund it to pass laws
> favouring their (EU made) products.
>
oh yes, who knows about the European Round Table?
And the products are now mostly made in China (I stopped buying "german"
products), cause they are not german anymore. It is getting very hard to
find something not made in China.

> Its currency is a shambles and has plunged its southern states into
> poverty and debt, it has no army, it cannot police its borders as
> millions of middle eastern immigrants flood in, and it is now in a state
> of abject energy crisis because of it reliance on toy windmills and
> solar panels.
>

absolutely correct

>
> The Baltic states of Lithuania Latvia and estonia, are openly talking
> about Russian control - after all there seems to be little difference
> between Brussels and the Kremlin.
>

ahm - these states are the worst human right abusers in Europe and are the
worst puppets to their NATO master. The regimes there are not better than
what was before 1989.
Basically after 1989 the masters from the east were replaced with masters
from the west and under pretext of democracy the social structures were
destroyed and the people were robbed again, while the former communists
became entrepreneurs and live even better than before most of the
population there is worth nothing compared to migrants.

It is very complex topic when you go to the geo-political level, but it is
also clearly simple what is going on.

To me the biggest danger is coming from the incompetence of so called
politicians. The idiots could easily sparkle a nuclear war.

Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> Java Jive wrote on 5/11/2021 1:43 am:
>> On 04/11/2021 13:46, TimS wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
>> I can only suggest that you spend some time learning about a subject
>> before shooting your mouth off about it.  As someone whose name sadly
>> escapes me, American I think, once so aptly said:  "It is better to keep
>> your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open it
>> and remove all shadow of doubt!"
>>
> Might that have been Mark Twain, perhaps?? Sounds about right!

The oldest version I know is Latin, so probably a couple thousand years
old:

“O si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.”

Literally translated:

“Oh, if you had stayed silent, you would have remained a philosopher.”

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

alister wrote on 20/12/21 2:50 am:
> On 19 Dec 2021 13:18:22 GMT, TimS wrote:
>
>> On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65
>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>>
>>> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>>>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>>>
>>>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>>>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>>>
>>>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>>>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>>>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>>>> be gotten rid of.
>>>>
>>>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>>>> time.
>>>>
>>> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!
>>
>> Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With
>> FPTP you can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU
>> parliament, there are no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the
>> next one on the list gets the nod automatically. How's that for
>> democracy!
>
> FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
> Transferable Vote
> if no candidate has a majority then the lowest candidate is removed &
> their votes added to the 2nd choice candidate of each voter - repeat as
> necessary (it may need a 3rd choice etc depending on the number of
> candidates).

Hmm! Here in Australia, we call that "First Past The Post"!
--
Daniel

Dana Mon, 20 Dec 2021 23:29:16 +1100, Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> napis'o:
> alister wrote on 20/12/21 2:50 am:
>> On 19 Dec 2021 13:18:22 GMT, TimS wrote:
>>
>>> On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65
>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
>>>>> On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold
>>>>> and like a mug, you think it's good.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at
>>>>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
>>>>> need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically
>>>>> be gotten rid of.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next
>>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>> Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!
>>>
>>> Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With
>>> FPTP you can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU
>>> parliament, there are no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the
>>> next one on the list gets the nod automatically. How's that for
>>> democracy!
>>
>> FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
>> Transferable Vote
>> if no candidate has a majority then the lowest candidate is removed &
>> their votes added to the 2nd choice candidate of each voter - repeat as
>> necessary (it may need a 3rd choice etc depending on the number of
>> candidates).
>
> Hmm! Here in Australia, we call that "First Past The Post"!

And "FPTP" is acronim for...? :)

On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 15:50:45 -0000 (UTC)
alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
> Transferable Vote

There is the Big Brother system:

You get in by random selection, jury rules - one shot per lifetime,
you can get voted out by petition or you leave when your term expires or
you get convicted of a crime. Your leaving bonus depends entirely on how
long you last. Oh and lying to the public while in office is treated as
perjury.

> if no candidate has a majority then the lowest candidate is removed &
> their votes added to the 2nd choice candidate of each voter - repeat as
> necessary (it may need a 3rd choice etc depending on the number of
> candidates).

In a recent election here (Ireland) some seats (the last ones to
be filled in the constituency) got to the ninth iteration of that process
before a majority was found - essentially it became a process of selecting
the least unpopular candidate for the last position (or two) since all the
popular candidates already had seats.

This is perhaps a reason to avoid multiple seats per constituency
rather than STV.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 19/12/2021 10:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> The salient point is that the MEPs have no power whatsoever to change
> anything. They are neither the originators nor the passers of policy.
> They are in effect an 'upper house' a senate, a house of lords, who can
> at best stop legislation if they can be bothered to read it or attend
> parliament. Most do not. It is a purely ceremonial position.
> In the EU, the power is with the commissioners and the various
> Presidents none of who undergo popular election. Like  every other
> communist state a Party of bureacrats controls everything,  the
> elections are just for show, and nothing ever changes in response to
> popular demand.
> Lobbyists from multinational corporations dictate policy.
> The people are there to buy their product and shut up.

When are you going to stop lying about the EU???!!!

This is how the EU actually works, either read and understand it, or
don't bother and stop speaking out of your arse about things that you
can't be arsed to understand:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

In fact when are going to stop lying, full stop???!!!

> There was in the end only one democratic vote that an EU nation could
> have, and Britain took it.
>
> Britain will now be desroyed for daring to.
>
> Assisted by Zombie Joe.

Like most countries, Britain does most of its trade with its nearest
geographical neighbours, and as our nearest geographical neighbours are
in the EU, it never made any sense at all for us to leave, the only
reason we did so being the prevalence of bigoted and shameless liars
like you. If you don't like what is happening to the country now, blame
yourself, because you've lied about the EU for decades, voted to leave
it, and thereby voted to make this country poorer, so you have directly
contributed to the shit we're in, so stop moaning and shut the fuck up.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 19/12/2021 13:18, TimS wrote:
>
> Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With FPTP you
> can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU parliament, there are
> no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the next one on the list gets the
> nod automatically. How's that for democracy!

The Scottish Parliament is elected via a list system:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57047907

Constituencies Seats
SNP 62 64
Con 5 31
LD 4 4
Lab 2 22
Green 0 8

Note that without the extra PR list seats, the SNP would have had an
overwhelming majority of 51, but with the PR list seats, they are one
short of a majority and consequently have to compromise with others to
get legislation through. No-one in Scotland seems to be complaining
about this, not even the SNP.

In fact in Scotland, there are two PR systems in use:

1) Local Council elections use Single Transferable Vote where
voters rank candidates in order of preference. This is the Electoral
Reform Society's preferred option.

2) MSPs are elected via a different system, the Additional Member
System, aka Mixed Member Proportional, aka a list system. See below.

The simple fact is that both the systems in use in Scotland produce more
representative results than FPTP, even the second being easily more
representative:

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/is-there-proportional-representation-in-scotland/

"How proportional is the system in Scotland?

A way of measuring the proportionality of electoral outcomes is via the
Deviation from Proportionality (DV) Index. The DV Index is calculated by
adding up the difference between each party’s vote share and their seat
share in each electoral area and dividing by two, giving a ‘total
deviation’ score. The higher the score, the more disproportionate the
result.

Westminster election results in recent years were in the 20s (2015: 24,
2010: 22.7, 2005: 20.7), the Scottish parliament has never had a result
worse than 12.1."

The EU system of government is if anything *MORE* representative than
the UK national system, rather than less.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 19/12/2021 15:54, TimS wrote:
>
> On 19 Dec 2021 at 15:50:45 GMT, alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
>> Transferable Vote
>
> No, it doesn't need replacing at all. Anyway we had a vote on this 10 years
> ago, no dice.

And look how the shit has hit the fan since. We need to reform the UK
system of government to make it more representative of the people as a
whole.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 19/12/2021 16:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> The disaster that no overall parliamentary majority becomes with
> 'proportional representation'  is illustrated by a minority party with
> perhaps only 10% of the popular vote becoming an indispensable coalition
> partner  and having more influence on government than Carrie Symonds.

Most rational people would consider that a good thing.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 19/12/2021 17:59, TimS wrote:
>
> I'm just re-reading my copy of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by
> William Shirer. He has a lot to say about how the Weimar Republic's stability
> was not helped by its PR system of selecting deputies - lots of small
> single-issue parties.

Yes, the parallels between the rise of the third reich and current UK
politics are interesting, dishonest right-wing propaganda leading to
stupid decisions and creating instability.

--
Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 19/12/2021 15:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 19/12/2021 15:50, alister wrote:
>> >> FPTP needs to be replaced
>
> No, it doesn't.

Yes it does ...

> It always - nearly always gives a clear working majority to a single party.
> People who say it isn't 'fair' have a childish view of democracy. It
> isn't there to 'represent the people' it is there to be able to sack the
> executive without a (civil) war.

In other words, it nearly always leads to an elected dictatorship for
four years.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 19/12/2021 17:57, TimS wrote:
>
> Unlike with the EU where the executive isn't sackable within the meaning of
> the Act. Indeed, in the case of its president, we don't even know why or how
> she was selected, by what process, and whether there were any other
> candidates.

See the links given in my reply to the The Unnatural Pillock for how the
EU system of government really works.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 19/12/2021 10:56, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> And it is not even correct to say that the EU represents the citizens of
> the 27 countries that still are in it. It doesn't. It represents a
> narrow cadre of elitists, and some people who fund it to pass laws
> favouring their (EU made) products.

Stop lying about the EU, I'm going to keep posting these links until you
stop speaking out of your arse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

> Its currency is a shambles and has plunged its southern states into
> poverty and debt,

Our currency fell on the Brexit vote and has never recovered since, so
if the EU's currency is a shambles, ours must be even worse.

> it has no army,

It doesn't need one, and any sensible person would think that's a good
thing.

> it cannot police its borders as
> millions of middle eastern immigrants flood in,

I thought the general complaint was the immigrants were flooding into
the UK, not Europe? Otherwise why are they risking drowning crossing
the Channel in unsuitable craft.

> and it is now in a state
> of abject energy crisis because of it reliance on toy windmills and
> solar panels.

Bollocks, where is your *EVIDENCE* for this claim?

[snip usual The Unnatural Pillock whingeing]

> Ultimately you have to ask whether a 19th century top down colonial
> bureaucracy designed by an Italian communist is an appropriate way to
> run a continent.

A top down colonial bureaucracy is exactly how the UK is run, even
though we don't really have colonies any more.

> Time will tell.

But, either way, you'll still be lying your arse off.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk