I was playing "Quake Enhanced" the other day and was... well, I don't
wanna give away anything from my end-of-month round-up, but let's say
that exuberantly happy was not the primary emotion I was feeling.
Still, I couldn't help but be a little impressed by how far they were
pushing the old idTech-1 engine. It wasn't anything that hadn't been
done before by modders, but still, some of the stuff they were doing -
especially in the new "Dimension of the Machine" episode - was
impressive. Then I noticed all the references to "Kex" in the credits
and I was suddenly far less excited.

The Kex engine is (for any oddballs here who don't have a weird
fascination with underlying technologies used to create game engines
;-) is a proprietary game engine created by Nightdive Studios, who are
responsible for 'upgrading' a lot of older games so they run on modern
hardware. It's actually a fairly powerful engines whose biggest
selling point is that it can be made to look like its twenty-year old
technology. It's a perfectly fine engine, but its use in Quake
Enhanced made me wonder...

If the original models in Quake Enhanced were replaced with higher
polygon versions...

... and the original textures were replaced with upscaled
versions...

... and the original maps replaced with modern remakes...

... and the original sounds were similarly replaced...

... and even the underlying game engine was replaced...

.... is it still Quake?

Like the legendary Ship of Theseus, at what point is a game not the
game it started at but something entirely new? Is the game I played
still Quake, or somebody's best-effort impression and recreation of
what Quake is?

Does it really matter? Of course not. The game was never advertised as
being "real" Quake, after all. But it was an amusing question that
bounced around my head (and left more of an impression on me than the
game itself).

Me, I'm just gonna keep playing the original so as not to worry about
such deep philosophical issues. That way, when I play Quake, I know
I'm actually playing Quake, and thus spare myself any distractions as
a Shambler lightning-bolts my ass for the fourth time in a row.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2023 11:47:26 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>
>
>I was playing "Quake Enhanced" the other day and was... well, I don't
>wanna give away anything from my end-of-month round-up, but let's say
>that exuberantly happy was not the primary emotion I was feeling.
>Still, I couldn't help but be a little impressed by how far they were
>pushing the old idTech-1 engine. It wasn't anything that hadn't been
>done before by modders, but still, some of the stuff they were doing -
>especially in the new "Dimension of the Machine" episode - was
>impressive. Then I noticed all the references to "Kex" in the credits
>and I was suddenly far less excited.
>
>The Kex engine is (for any oddballs here who don't have a weird
>fascination with underlying technologies used to create game engines
>;-) is a proprietary game engine created by Nightdive Studios, who are
>responsible for 'upgrading' a lot of older games so they run on modern
>hardware. It's actually a fairly powerful engines whose biggest
>selling point is that it can be made to look like its twenty-year old
>technology. It's a perfectly fine engine, but its use in Quake
>Enhanced made me wonder...
>
>If the original models in Quake Enhanced were replaced with higher
>polygon versions...
>
> ... and the original textures were replaced with upscaled
>versions...
>
> ... and the original maps replaced with modern remakes...
>
> ... and the original sounds were similarly replaced...
>
> ... and even the underlying game engine was replaced...
>
>... is it still Quake?
>
>Like the legendary Ship of Theseus, at what point is a game not the
>game it started at but something entirely new? Is the game I played
>still Quake, or somebody's best-effort impression and recreation of
>what Quake is?
>
From a programming standpoint, no it's not the same program. Under the
hood it's something totally different. That is clear to any modder.

From a play aspect, unless you start changing the weapons, mobs, and
maps, it's Quake.

My 2 cents.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 8:47:44 AM UTC-8, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> I was playing "Quake Enhanced" the other day and was... well, I don't
> wanna give away anything from my end-of-month round-up, but let's say
> that exuberantly happy was not the primary emotion I was feeling.
> Still, I couldn't help but be a little impressed by how far they were
> pushing the old idTech-1 engine. It wasn't anything that hadn't been
> done before by modders, but still, some of the stuff they were doing -
> especially in the new "Dimension of the Machine" episode - was
> impressive. Then I noticed all the references to "Kex" in the credits
> and I was suddenly far less excited.
>
> The Kex engine is (for any oddballs here who don't have a weird
> fascination with underlying technologies used to create game engines
> ;-) is a proprietary game engine created by Nightdive Studios, who are
> responsible for 'upgrading' a lot of older games so they run on modern
> hardware. It's actually a fairly powerful engines whose biggest
> selling point is that it can be made to look like its twenty-year old
> technology. It's a perfectly fine engine, but its use in Quake
> Enhanced made me wonder...
>
> If the original models in Quake Enhanced were replaced with higher
> polygon versions...
>
> ... and the original textures were replaced with upscaled
> versions...
>
> ... and the original maps replaced with modern remakes...
>
> ... and the original sounds were similarly replaced...
>
> ... and even the underlying game engine was replaced...
>
> ... is it still Quake?
>
> Like the legendary Ship of Theseus, at what point is a game not the
> game it started at but something entirely new? Is the game I played
> still Quake, or somebody's best-effort impression and recreation of
> what Quake is?
>
> Does it really matter? Of course not. The game was never advertised as
> being "real" Quake, after all. But it was an amusing question that
> bounced around my head (and left more of an impression on me than the
> game itself).
>
> Me, I'm just gonna keep playing the original so as not to worry about
> such deep philosophical issues. That way, when I play Quake, I know
> I'm actually playing Quake, and thus spare myself any distractions as
> a Shambler lightning-bolts my ass for the fourth time in a row.

Gatekeeper! No True Scotsman Fallacy! j/k

That's a good question. I don't know, if the graphics are actually improved
vs. look like crap such as with Dark Souls remastered, and it plays mostly
the same I guess it's still Quake. *shrug*

I mean in a way whenever anyone plays a game it's not the same, there
literally isn't a true Quake. The electrons are different ones, the hardware
is different, the mouse and keyboards are different, and that will influence
the way it plays.

- Justisaur

On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 21:03:07 -0800 (PST), Justisaur
<justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 8:47:44 AM UTC-8, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>> If the original models in Quake Enhanced were replaced with higher
>> polygon versions...
>> ... and the original textures were replaced with upscaled
>> versions...
>> ... and the original maps replaced with modern remakes...
>> ... and the original sounds were similarly replaced...
>> ... and even the underlying game engine was replaced...
>> ... is it still Quake?

>Gatekeeper! No True Scotsman Fallacy! j/k

>That's a good question. I don't know, if the graphics are actually improved
>vs. look like crap such as with Dark Souls remastered, and it plays mostly
>the same I guess it's still Quake. *shrug*

It wasn't really intended as an actual question. Anyway, the game is
a) Quake so long as its owners (Microsoft/Bethesda/Id) say it is, and
b) actually sold as "Quake Enhanced", indicating it's an entirely new
game anyway. ;-)

Still, although not being an expert on the original, there did seem to
be some differences between the new and old. Most notably, the
movement in "Enhanced" felt a lot more 'slippery' than the original,
as if my character were running on ice all the time. I loaded up the
original (running on DOS) after playing "Enhanced" and movement felt a
lot more heavy and solid. Since I prefer to sit back and snipe at
range - as opposed to the scoot-n-shoot that Quake is famous for - I
disliked this change, but it probably makes for better deathmatch.