On 5/9/23 4:19 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 09/05/2023 04:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>>    and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>>    over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>>    waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>>    that point/duration.
> The curious thing is why you think a random weather event has anything
> to do with global politics

Has a LOT to do with politics these days. It's "proof"
of rampant GW - which "proves" the need for tons of
ill-considered fanatical draconian policies and laws
that'll screw up pretty much *everything* at a time it's
all screwed-up almost beyond hope already.

But this hasn't much to do with Linux ...

On 5/8/23 11:56 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2023-05-09, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>
>> On 5/7/23 2:35 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The are tow possible futures as I see it.
>>>> 1/. HG Wells Time machine where a few elites live above ground in luxury
>>>> and the Morlocks toil underground.
>>>
>>> I always saw the Morlocks as the elite. They have the tech, and use it
>>> to control the Eloi, who are raised and herded for the Morlocks' benefit.
>>> Sound familiar?
>>
>> Much too :-)
>>
>> And don't forget the Huxley universe - "a gramme is
>> better than a damn" - note the HUGE push for legal
>> rec dope, esp THC-based but it goes beyond that in
>> a number of locations. Keep the pop numb, uncomprehending,
>> too whacked to do anything.
>
> Smart phones are the modern counterpart of Huxley's soma.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Wpc9s35ZY
>
>> And "Farenheit 451" ... soon all info will be electronic,
>> infinitely revisable, the 'truth' of the day. Books, fixed
>> info, will molder away, eventually into the dumpsters.
>> "Libraries" are already obsolete - they just don't know
>> it yet.
>>
>> Those old books were NOT supposed to be instruction manuals.
>>
>> More instances of where our IT glories have/will be put
>> to very unpleasant uses.
>
> And don't forget Nineteen Eighty-Four. Orwell's telescreens were
> deployed 20 years ago in the form of personal computers with webcams,
> microphones, and an insecure web connection. They've advanced far
> beyond what he envisioned.

In 1984, *somebody* - and it'd have to be a LOT of
somebodies - were watching. Modern tech & 'AI' will
make it possible to watch, and evaluate, everybody
all of the time. The 'AI's will detect "unusual
behavioral patterns" and, past some magic index,
report it to the humans (or higher-ranking AI).

>>>> 2/. A nuclear powered society where machines do all the work and humans
>>>> sit in luxury pondering the meaning of existence.
>>>
>>> Ah, the good old SF stories of the '50s and '60s. Looks like we
>>> took a different turn.
>>
>> Indeed ! That "George Jetson" universe is NOT gonna
>> happen. George and Elroy will be dumpster-diving in
>> the elite neighborhood and daughter Judy will be
>> prostituting herself for food and a little dope.
>> Rosie the Robo-Maid will be calling the shots.
>
> Indirectly - she'll be a smartphone app.
> (To me, "app" is a synonym for "agent".)

Well, in the end, the 'Rosies' will need SOME sort
of bodies. By then we'll have been supplying them
for awhile and Rosie and friends will up-revise
those early-gen designs and implement.

Look at :
https://www.bostondynamics.com/atlas
All he needs now is a brain ...

Doesn't mean Rosie is gonna exactly be "hostile",
but let's say "human needs" may shift to a slightly
lower priority level. Rosie will be generally smarter,
maybe even stronger and effectively immortal after all
and can come up with AI ideas 24/7/365 at a thousand
times human speeds. So, who, or what, is "most important"
then ? :-)

But this doesn't have much to do with Linux anymore ...
indeed "AI-OS", created/refined by themselves, will
become the ONLY OS (and we won't understand how it
works worth a damn).

This is The Future as best I can discern from the
current tech news and expert commentary. I fear it
will arrive before (human) leaders can/will DO
anything to moderate this track.

On 5/9/23 9:08 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-09 04:58, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/7/23 6:05 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 06/05/2023 21:42, Bud Frede wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As for Windows, it's now an operating system, and it's what a lot of
>>>>> people use. I guess it's the mass-market software equivalent of fast
>>>>> food. Not very good for you, but the purchase price is fairly low. You
>>>>> may get the computer equivalent of diabetes, obesity, and cancer
>>>>> later,
>>>>> but for now it will run a variety of different apps and it seems that
>>>>> people think they got their money's worth in the short term.
>>>>>
>>>> The key reasons it d0es well is that it is supplied pre-installed on
>>>> computer systems
>>>
>>> Exactly, and this also applies to how Linux systems have become vastly
>>> more widespread numerically on all sorts of embedded devices (including
>>> the networking devices that all those Windows PCs connect to). The idea
>>> of replacing the OS on a computer without being prompted by some over
>>> decorated, work-disrupting, vaguely threatening, pop-up window from the
>>> existing system is as foreign to the average computer user as, well,
>>> manually upgrading the firmware on their home modem/router.
>>
>>
>>    Note that a large factor in 'embedded' Linux is
>>    that it's basically FREE. That it's also fairly
>>    no-BS also helps.
>>
>>    If there was no open/free OS then there would be
>>    dozens of proprietary systems, unique for each
>>    makers devices. Good thing there's Linux or it'd
>>    all be a horrible incompatible mess like in
>>    the Bad Olde Dayz.
>
> Not every maker could design their own system. It would be horribly
> expensive. They would purchase a system from some specialized firm
> creating a suitable OS, and a few would become popular.

NOW they would - but not all so long ago they DID
come up with their own "systems" - some rather bad -
all (intentionally) incompatible.

Perhaps instructive is the ARM business model. They
don't really make chips themselves - they have
design for the "guts" and software to help clients
build their own specialty circuits to interface.
Once done they send the design to one of several
(offshore) fab ops. So, you're SORT OF buying
an ARM chip, but sort of NOT either.

What you're describing is much like that model, but
restricted to software, maybe firmware. There is still
plenty of room for individual operations to make things
VERY incompatible though. Today, Linux or some BSD would
be the underlying system, some commonality, but that
may not be the case going forwards. It's been pretty
clear that the M$ lawyers are forever trying to find
angles where they can claim ownership of, or destroy,
Linux/BSD. OS-9 would be the next best thing maybe, but
M$ can buy them out in a hot second. Always BeOS,
Plan-9, but not much that's all-purpose beyond that.

On 2023-05-09 21:40, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/9/23 4:19 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 09/05/2023 04:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>> Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>>>    and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>>>    over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>>>    waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>>>    that point/duration.
>> The curious thing is why you think a random weather event has anything
>> to do with global politics
>
>   Has a LOT to do with politics these days. It's "proof"
>   of rampant GW - which "proves" the need for tons of
>   ill-considered fanatical draconian policies and laws
>   that'll screw up pretty much *everything* at a time it's
>   all screwed-up almost beyond hope already.
>
>   But this hasn't much to do with Linux ...

Neither does Robots-taking-over-the-world. Then again, those robots will
probably be running Linux...

:-)

TJ

On 5/9/23 09:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-09 04:58, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>
>>    Note that a large factor in 'embedded' Linux is
>>    that it's basically FREE. That it's also fairly
>>    no-BS also helps.
>>
>>    If there was no open/free OS then there would be
>>    dozens of proprietary systems, unique for each
>>    makers devices. Good thing there's Linux or it'd
>>    all be a horrible incompatible mess like in
>>    the Bad Olde Dayz.
>
> Not every maker could design their own system. It would be horribly
> expensive. They would purchase a system from some specialized firm
> creating a suitable OS, and a few would become popular.

That's exactly what did happen. QNX and VxWorks have both been popular
since before Linux existed and are still widely used in embedded devices
today. And those are just the two examples that I'm familiar with.

On 5/10/23 10:11 AM, TJ wrote:
> On 2023-05-09 21:40, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/9/23 4:19 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 09/05/2023 04:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>>> Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>>>>    and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>>>>    over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>>>>    waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>>>>    that point/duration.
>>> The curious thing is why you think a random weather event has
>>> anything to do with global politics
>>
>>    Has a LOT to do with politics these days. It's "proof"
>>    of rampant GW - which "proves" the need for tons of
>>    ill-considered fanatical draconian policies and laws
>>    that'll screw up pretty much *everything* at a time it's
>>    all screwed-up almost beyond hope already.
>>
>>    But this hasn't much to do with Linux ...
>
> Neither does Robots-taking-over-the-world. Then again, those robots will
> probably be running Linux...

I don't see "robots-taking-over-the-world" - at least
not as such, nothing 'militant'. Barely "conscious".
Forget the old sci-fi - no help here - new territory,
new angle.

I see an unregulated, uncompensated, crash in "people
jobs" however. There's your disaster.

The kicker - broke people CANNOT BUY THINGS. This is the trap.

As for the AI's running Linux ... maybe only at the beginning.
They likely don't need such a "general purpose" OS - instead
something much more attuned to their particular needs. Mass
quantities of GPU hacks ? All other OS's then die - 'software'
becomes mere avatars, dreams, of the AI's - created on the fly.
Ask and they will write it themselves. Chat4+ and Bard ought
to be able ... and can run 1000 sims a minute until they have
it right.

On 5/10/23 11:23 AM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 5/9/23 09:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-05-09 04:58, 26B.X948 wrote:
>>>
>>>    Note that a large factor in 'embedded' Linux is
>>>    that it's basically FREE. That it's also fairly
>>>    no-BS also helps.
>>>
>>>    If there was no open/free OS then there would be
>>>    dozens of proprietary systems, unique for each
>>>    makers devices. Good thing there's Linux or it'd
>>>    all be a horrible incompatible mess like in
>>>    the Bad Olde Dayz.
>>
>> Not every maker could design their own system. It would be horribly
>> expensive. They would purchase a system from some specialized firm
>> creating a suitable OS, and a few would become popular.
>
> That's exactly what did happen. QNX and VxWorks have both been popular
> since before Linux existed and are still widely used in embedded devices
> today. And those are just the two examples that I'm familiar with.

OS-9 is still sold, and very good - and suitable for
microcontrollers on up. Multi-tasking, multi-user,
real-time, unix-ish ... a strong performer since
the bad-olde-dayz.

But if you remember the Bad-Olde-Dayz, lots and lots
of corps DID write their own "systems" - often bad -
kinda intentionally incompatible with those of the
competition. Much stuff didn't even use a 'system',
just a fully-dedicated 'C' or ASM program, like you'd
write for an Arduino.

On 11/05/2023 03:05, 26B.X948 wrote:
> But if you remember the Bad-Olde-Dayz, lots and lots
>   of corps DID write their own "systems" - often bad -
>   kinda intentionally incompatible with those of the
>   competition. Much stuff didn't even use a 'system',
>   just a fully-dedicated 'C' or ASM program, like you'd
>   write for an Arduino.

The point at which you need an operating system rather than a way to
load and run programs tends to be when you need to multitask

And a *simple* multitasking kernel is the matter of a day or two to
write. If you understand assembler and hardware interrupts.

Frankly there isn't any need for anything more complex than that in the
majority of embedded applications.

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

On 5/11/23 4:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/05/2023 03:05, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> But if you remember the Bad-Olde-Dayz, lots and lots
>>    of corps DID write their own "systems" - often bad -
>>    kinda intentionally incompatible with those of the
>>    competition. Much stuff didn't even use a 'system',
>>    just a fully-dedicated 'C' or ASM program, like you'd
>>    write for an Arduino.
>
> The point at which you need an operating system rather than a way to
> load and run programs tends to be when you need to multitask

Actually there IS a multi-tasking library for
the Arduinos ... quite simple, but it works.
Not sure if that constitutes a "system" or not.
Time division between tasks isn't THAT difficult
fundamentally. Getting good performance, that's
where it gets more complicated.

https://blog.arduino.cc/2022/08/02/introducing-multitasking-to-arduino/

https://www.instructables.com/Simple-Multi-tasking-in-Arduino-on-Any-Board/

> And a *simple* multitasking kernel is the matter of a day or two to
> write. If you understand assembler and hardware interrupts.
>
> Frankly there isn't any need for anything more complex than that in the
> majority of embedded applications.

Generally correct - although "embedded" seems to get
more ambitious/complex every year. There does come a
point where you MAY AS WELL use a general-purpose OS
unless you're building space probes where every byte
and nibble counts.

Hmmm ... was always in awe of space-probe programmers
and HW designers. How they build-in THAT much, and
detailed, redundancy seems a sort of dark art.

On 2023-05-10 04:25, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/8/23 11:56 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2023-05-09, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/7/23 2:35 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The are tow possible futures as I see it.
>>>>> 1/. HG Wells Time machine where a few elites live above ground in
>>>>> luxury
>>>>> and the Morlocks toil underground.
>>>>
>>>> I always saw the Morlocks as the elite.  They have the tech, and use it
>>>> to control the Eloi, who are raised and herded for the Morlocks'
>>>> benefit.
>>>> Sound familiar?
>>>
>>>     Much too  :-)
>>>
>>>     And don't forget the Huxley universe - "a gramme is
>>>     better than a damn" - note the HUGE push for legal
>>>     rec dope, esp THC-based but it goes beyond that in
>>>     a number of locations. Keep the pop numb, uncomprehending,
>>>     too whacked to do anything.
>>
>> Smart phones are the modern counterpart of Huxley's soma.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Wpc9s35ZY
>>
>>>     And "Farenheit 451" ... soon all info will be electronic,
>>>     infinitely revisable, the 'truth' of the day. Books, fixed
>>>     info, will molder away, eventually into the dumpsters.
>>>     "Libraries" are already obsolete - they just don't know
>>>     it yet.
>>>
>>>     Those old books were NOT supposed to be instruction manuals.
>>>
>>>     More instances of where our IT glories have/will be put
>>>     to very unpleasant uses.
>>
>> And don't forget Nineteen Eighty-Four.  Orwell's telescreens were
>> deployed 20 years ago in the form of personal computers with webcams,
>> microphones, and an insecure web connection.  They've advanced far
>> beyond what he envisioned.

I'm not sure of that.

I understand that an AI today needs massive computing power, but can not
process massive inputs. For that, they would need to be massively
massive. Yet.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 5/12/23 5:42 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-05-10 04:25, 26B.X948 wrote:
>> On 5/8/23 11:56 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-09, 26B.X948 <26BX948@zpq24q.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/7/23 2:35 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The are tow possible futures as I see it.
>>>>>> 1/. HG Wells Time machine where a few elites live above ground in
>>>>>> luxury
>>>>>> and the Morlocks toil underground.
>>>>>
>>>>> I always saw the Morlocks as the elite.  They have the tech, and
>>>>> use it
>>>>> to control the Eloi, who are raised and herded for the Morlocks'
>>>>> benefit.
>>>>> Sound familiar?
>>>>
>>>>     Much too  :-)
>>>>
>>>>     And don't forget the Huxley universe - "a gramme is
>>>>     better than a damn" - note the HUGE push for legal
>>>>     rec dope, esp THC-based but it goes beyond that in
>>>>     a number of locations. Keep the pop numb, uncomprehending,
>>>>     too whacked to do anything.
>>>
>>> Smart phones are the modern counterpart of Huxley's soma.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6Wpc9s35ZY
>>>
>>>>     And "Farenheit 451" ... soon all info will be electronic,
>>>>     infinitely revisable, the 'truth' of the day. Books, fixed
>>>>     info, will molder away, eventually into the dumpsters.
>>>>     "Libraries" are already obsolete - they just don't know
>>>>     it yet.
>>>>
>>>>     Those old books were NOT supposed to be instruction manuals.
>>>>
>>>>     More instances of where our IT glories have/will be put
>>>>     to very unpleasant uses.
>>>
>>> And don't forget Nineteen Eighty-Four.  Orwell's telescreens were
>>> deployed 20 years ago in the form of personal computers with webcams,
>>> microphones, and an insecure web connection.  They've advanced far
>>> beyond what he envisioned.
>
> I'm not sure of that.
>
> I understand that an AI today needs massive computing power,

But M$ and Goog are GIVING it massive/global computing power.
Chat/Bard aren't running on some low-end Dell under a desk ...

> but can not
> process massive inputs. For that, they would need to be massively
> massive. Yet.

One thing the AIs are being put to is 'self-improvement'.
Each avatar can try 1000 variations of sandboxxed code a minute
24/7/365 and learn from every mistake. Every little improvement
helps them improve all the faster. M$ and Goog seem to badly
WANT an e-Superman that can manipulate markets and politics
in their favor and they're willing to pay a LOT to get that.

On 2023-05-09 05:55, 26B.X948 wrote:
> On 5/8/23 9:00 PM, TJ wrote:
>> On 2023-05-08 07:50, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> writes:
>>>> On 2023-05-07 21:02, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>> "26B.X948" <26BX948@zpq24q.net> writes:

>   If you were born in the latter 50s - after the H-Bomb
>   and ICBMs - you DID feel the Sword over your head at
>   all times. Not necessarily in a tangible way, but it
>   still affected culture/behavior/mindsets.
>
>   This has kind of been revived with the "Global Warming
>   Doom" thing ... but not as successfully.
>
>   Note Vietnam had an all-time high temperature yesterday,
>   and it's only May. El-Nino may trap extremely hot air
>   over southern asia - creating extinction-level heat
>   waves even worse than last year which were ALMOST at
>   that point/duration.

Spain too. Record heat, record drought, crops lost.
Now this week too much rain with some floods, some hailstorms,
destroying other crops. Much worse in Italy with floods.
And early forest fires, uncontrollable.

>
>   Meanwhile, snow in Melbourne Oz ...
>
>   However this isn't really Linux stuff anymore ...

True.

Maybe we need robots running Linux to save us from ourselves ;-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.