Am 30.05.23 um 12:50 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
> On 30/05/2023 02:43, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Granted setting them up probably required lots more copying/editing
>> config files than it would were I using this Cinnamon thing, but
>> there's no excuse for wasting that much RAM just as a baseline.
>>
> There is every excuse if your machine has 4GB+ of RAM and you have
> better things to do.

+1 and *SIC*

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

On 2023-05-30, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 28.05.23 um 22:28 schrieb pH:
>> > I have not investigated the camera.
>> >
>> > After the install, I did have to get the Broadcom drivers to get the wifi to
>> > work..luckily I had an ethernet connection to make that happen, also went
>> > smoothly.
>
>> Wifi worked out of the box here. On all Macs it worked flawlessly.
>
>> > There's been paper/tape over that camera since I got the thing from my
>> > brother.....
>
>> Perhaps not a bad idea ...
>
> Need one for mic(rophone) too. ;)

I've always wondered about that after the (urban legends?) stories that if
you have a dog barking in the background dog food etcetera ads will start
showing up in your browser.

I thought the thing to do would be to remove the microphone driver entirely
with "insmod" (is that the right one?) and put it back when you were done
before shutdown.

The trick would be finding *which* module(s) is the one that is responsible
for the microphone.

pH

On 2023-05-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 May 2023 11:04:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 28/05/2023 10:19, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 27.05.23 um 20:55 schrieb pH:
>>>> K'pla! Got Mint 21.1 Vera (Mate version) installed on the old 2011 MacBook
>>>> and it seems to run fine.
>>>>
>>>> I had erroneously thoght that I did not have the boot from USB option on the
>>>> old MacBook...turns out you just have to hae the USB drive in the slot when
>>>> you start up. I had thought it would show up automatically in the menu along
>>>> w/ the drives....
>>> Press the Option/ALT key while starting.
>>>
>>>> Anyway, all is running smoothly now just have to get it all set up the way I
>>>> like.
>>> You will love it.
>>>
>> A very good distro to make an old Mac new and shiny.
>
> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.

I went ahead and installed Mate....I wonder if I can just change over to
Cinammon to give it a whirl...should not have to do a whole new install.

Maybe it's as simple as 'apt-get cinnamon' and change the window manager
whereever that's specified...I always forget.

pH

On Tue, 30 May 2023 20:24:48 -0000 (UTC), pH wrote:
>
> On 2023-05-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>
>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>
> I went ahead and installed Mate....I wonder if I can just change over to
> Cinammon to give it a whirl...should not have to do a whole new install.
>
> Maybe it's as simple as 'apt-get cinnamon' and change the window manager
> whereever that's specified...I always forget.

There might be a META package for Cinnamon, installing essential
software.

After that you can either logout from your MATE session, click the wrench
(or gear sometimes) top right, or next to the username field, and choose
Cinnamon. Then provide username and password.

You can also log in concurrently into another session. Again select to
logout the running session, but this time "Switch user" instead. The
display manager should open in a new GUI to let you log in. Now you can
even switch between the two running sessions (F7, F8 or wherever the GUIs
are located) to compare.

But note that if two sessions run concurrently they will use a lot of
resources. The system might slow down significantly.

You can log out of any user session then to get some RAM and CPU cycles
back.
--
Andreas

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/05/2023 03:38, Rich wrote:
>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>> Am 28.05.23 um 22:33 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:
>>>>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>>>>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>>>>
>>>> The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start but
>>>> more than ready for everything like extensions, all sockets, Dropbox and
>>>> more. The use of resources is very moderate.
>>>
>>> Jeeze, _just_ 1.5 GB RAM "after the start"! That's over ten times
>>> the 144MB RAM used after booting up to the desktop on my Devuan 3
>>> (Debian 10 (Buster) without Systemd) system with JWM as the window
>>> manager.
>>
>> Indeed, calling 1.5GB ram "moderate" must mean the GP has a very
>> distorted view of "moderate" ram usage.
>>
>> fvwm2 here -- grand total of 35.9MiB for fvwm2.
>>
>> 1.5GB for the desktop is far from 'moderate'.
>
> He didnt say that 1.5GB was just for the desktop

Actually that's exactly what he said:
"The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start"

"The Cinnamon" is a window manager (or "desktop environment")
according to Wikipedia, although the Wikipedia page says it's
currently at version 5.6.8, so 21.1 is a bit futuristic.

I did figure that 1.5GB was probably the whole system's RAM usage,
but his implication was that a less "moderate" window manager than
Cinnamon would implicitly use much more than 1.5GB RAM, whereas I
don't think any decent window manager should use enough RAM to make
a difference at that scale.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 30.05.23 um 11:10 schrieb Computer Nerd Kev:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 30.05.23 um 03:43 schrieb Computer Nerd Kev:
>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Am 28.05.23 um 22:33 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:
>>>>>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>>>>>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start but
>>>>> more than ready for everything like extensions, all sockets, Dropbox and
>>>>> more. The use of resources is very moderate.
>>>>
>>>> Jeeze, _just_ 1.5 GB RAM "after the start"! That's over ten times
>>>> the 144MB RAM used after booting up to the desktop on my Devuan 3
>>>> (Debian 10 (Buster) without Systemd) system with JWM as the window
>>>> manager.
>>>
>>> We are discussing modern GUI-based Linux-distributions on Intel-Macs as
>>> alternative OSs to macOS-versions that cannot updated anymore. You are
>>> completely OT.
>>
>> Nonsense, the discussion here was about Linux window managers and
>
> Re: *Linux on MacBook* is the topic

So your point is that _you_ can talk about window managers under
that subject header, but if _I_ do it's off-topic? Riiight...

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> wrote:
>
> I've always wondered about that after the (urban legends?) stories that if
> you have a dog barking in the background dog food etcetera ads will start
> showing up in your browser.

Firefox claims to allow you to restrict whether websites can access
the mic without explicit user permission.

> I thought the thing to do would be to remove the microphone driver entirely
> with "insmod" (is that the right one?)

"modprobe -r" or rmmod.

> and put it back when you were done before shutdown.

It shouldn't mind what modules are loaded at shutdown.

> The trick would be finding *which* module(s) is the one that is responsible
> for the microphone.

It'll be the same one that does audio output, so by that method
you'd take out your ability to play sounds too. If you don't trust
simply muting the input with the mixer controls, then I'm not sure
if there's a general-purpose software solution to disabling just
the mic. Some drivers could have relevant option parameters though.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 30.05.23 um 11:10 schrieb Computer Nerd Kev:
>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>> Am 30.05.23 um 03:43 schrieb Computer Nerd Kev:
>>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>>> Am 28.05.23 um 22:33 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:
>>>>>>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>>>>>>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start but
>>>>>> more than ready for everything like extensions, all sockets, Dropbox and
>>>>>> more. The use of resources is very moderate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeeze, _just_ 1.5 GB RAM "after the start"! That's over ten times
>>>>> the 144MB RAM used after booting up to the desktop on my Devuan 3
>>>>> (Debian 10 (Buster) without Systemd) system with JWM as the window
>>>>> manager.
>>>>
>>>> We are discussing modern GUI-based Linux-distributions on Intel-Macs as
>>>> alternative OSs to macOS-versions that cannot updated anymore. You are
>>>> completely OT.
>>>
>>> Nonsense, the discussion here was about Linux window managers and
>>
>> Re: *Linux on MacBook* is the topic
>
> So your point is that _you_ can talk about window managers under
> that subject header, but if _I_ do it's off-topic? Riiight...

Joreg is one of those personality types that is just an ass and nothing
more.

Killfile the troll and be done with it.

Am 31.05.23 um 01:09 schrieb Computer Nerd Kev:
> "The Cinnamon" is a window manager (or "desktop environment")
> according to Wikipedia, although the Wikipedia page says it's
> currently at version 5.6.8, so 21.1 is a bit futuristic.

Troll.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 31.05.23 um 03:45 schrieb Rich:
> Joreg is one of those personality types that is just an ass and nothing
> more.
>
> Killfile the troll and be done with it.

For Christ's sake do it, Troll!
Do you need help?

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Am 30.05.23 um 22:24 schrieb pH:
> On 2023-05-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>
> I went ahead and installed Mate....I wonder if I can just change over to
> Cinammon to give it a whirl...should not have to do a whole new install.
>
> Maybe it's as simple as 'apt-get cinnamon' and change the window manager
> whereever that's specified...I always forget.

You can choose the desktop environment in the login-window.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

On 30/05/2023 21:24, pH wrote:
> On 2023-05-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 May 2023 11:04:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> On 28/05/2023 10:19, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> Am 27.05.23 um 20:55 schrieb pH:
>>>>> K'pla! Got Mint 21.1 Vera (Mate version) installed on the old 2011 MacBook
>>>>> and it seems to run fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had erroneously thoght that I did not have the boot from USB option on the
>>>>> old MacBook...turns out you just have to hae the USB drive in the slot when
>>>>> you start up. I had thought it would show up automatically in the menu along
>>>>> w/ the drives....
>>>> Press the Option/ALT key while starting.
>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, all is running smoothly now just have to get it all set up the way I
>>>>> like.
>>>> You will love it.
>>>>
>>> A very good distro to make an old Mac new and shiny.
>>
>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>
> I went ahead and installed Mate....I wonder if I can just change over to
> Cinammon to give it a whirl...should not have to do a whole new install.
>
> Maybe it's as simple as 'apt-get cinnamon' and change the window manager
> whereever that's specified...I always forget.

I think it is, but I installed Cinnamon on a fresh install, played a few
days, and wiped it out and installed MATE. It was pretty, but MATE
features I use were simply missing.

In the end one gets used to a certain look, feel, and way of doing
things, and at my age, learning curves look more like steep hills, that
I have not the time, or energy, to climb :-)

Obviously for other people with different criteria, YMMV.

I would say that XP users would find MATE familiar whereas ex- OS/X
users might prefer Cinnamon.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On 30/05/2023 21:15, pH wrote:
> On 2023-05-30, Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> wrote:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 28.05.23 um 22:28 schrieb pH:
>>>> I have not investigated the camera.
>>>>
>>>> After the install, I did have to get the Broadcom drivers to get the wifi to
>>>> work..luckily I had an ethernet connection to make that happen, also went
>>>> smoothly.
>>
>>> Wifi worked out of the box here. On all Macs it worked flawlessly.
>>
>>>> There's been paper/tape over that camera since I got the thing from my
>>>> brother.....
>>
>>> Perhaps not a bad idea ...
>>
>> Need one for mic(rophone) too. ;)
>
> I've always wondered about that after the (urban legends?) stories that if
> you have a dog barking in the background dog food etcetera ads will start
> showing up in your browser.
>
> I thought the thing to do would be to remove the microphone driver entirely
> with "insmod" (is that the right one?) and put it back when you were done
> before shutdown.
>
> The trick would be finding *which* module(s) is the one that is responsible
> for the microphone.
>
> pH

My Logitech USB microphone/web cam lights up when in use.
Windows XP in a Virtual Box VM lights it up PERMANENTLY.

Linux does not, unless its actually in use for a video conference or as
an audio input to e.g. audacity.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 31/05/2023 00:09, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 30/05/2023 03:38, Rich wrote:
>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>>> Am 28.05.23 um 22:33 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:
>>>>>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>>>>>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start but
>>>>> more than ready for everything like extensions, all sockets, Dropbox and
>>>>> more. The use of resources is very moderate.
>>>>
>>>> Jeeze, _just_ 1.5 GB RAM "after the start"! That's over ten times
>>>> the 144MB RAM used after booting up to the desktop on my Devuan 3
>>>> (Debian 10 (Buster) without Systemd) system with JWM as the window
>>>> manager.
>>>
>>> Indeed, calling 1.5GB ram "moderate" must mean the GP has a very
>>> distorted view of "moderate" ram usage.
>>>
>>> fvwm2 here -- grand total of 35.9MiB for fvwm2.
>>>
>>> 1.5GB for the desktop is far from 'moderate'.
>>
>> He didnt say that 1.5GB was just for the desktop
>
> Actually that's exactly what he said:
> "The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start"
>
> "The Cinnamon" is a window manager (or "desktop environment")
> according to Wikipedia, although the Wikipedia page says it's
> currently at version 5.6.8, so 21.1 is a bit futuristic.
>
> I did figure that 1.5GB was probably the whole system's RAM usage,
> but his implication was that a less "moderate" window manager than
> Cinnamon would implicitly use much more than 1.5GB RAM, whereas I
> don't think any decent window manager should use enough RAM to make
> a difference at that scale.
>

I think that is semantics, as I understood it to mean that he had
installed Mint Cinnamon as a *total package*, and that was his total RAM
usage. Cinnamon is not *just* a window manager. It incorporate all sorts
of other shit as well. File manager, various utilities and menus, and so
on, so that every included system utility tends to have a 'Cinnamon look
and feel' and if these are running as daemons, they all take up RAM.

The realitu as far as I have bothered to take it is that raw X windows
is under 100Mbyte, and the window manager is similar. The rest of the
RAM usage in a typical desktop is all the system programs that are running.
But don't take my word for it, check on your own system.
Mine has a clock/calendar running, the update manaqer is running, Caja
is running, a system monitor is running and a network manager is
running, plus there will be buried in the Poettering shit, systemd and
its myrmidons, and pulse audio/ALSA sound messes .

None of these are part of the *window manager*, although CAJA is well
integrated with MATE. But some are part of the MATE environment, as set
up by me the way I want it.

My point is that 1.5GB is pretty normal for any desktop before you run
any user apps like firefox etc. But its got sod all to do with the
particular window manager and desktop environment.

Its all about what the distro loads up as default daemoins that you
decide to keep running

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

Am 31.05.23 um 07:41 schrieb Joerg Lorenz:
> Am 30.05.23 um 22:24 schrieb pH:
>> On 2023-05-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>>
>> I went ahead and installed Mate....I wonder if I can just change over to
>> Cinammon to give it a whirl...should not have to do a whole new install.
>>
>> Maybe it's as simple as 'apt-get cinnamon' and change the window manager
>> whereever that's specified...I always forget.
>
> You can choose the desktop environment in the login-window.

Sorry: I hope it is/was clear that the wanted desktop has to be
installed before this option works.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 31.05.23 um 03:45 schrieb Rich:
>> Joreg is one of those personality types that is just an ass and nothing
>> more.
>>
>> Killfile the troll and be done with it.
>
> For Christ's sake do it, Troll!
> Do you need help?
>

Idiot.

Killfiles kill articles you post.

They do not kill articles where another poster quotes the diarrhea that
you continue to spurt from your ass all over the group.

On 2023-05-31, Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 30.05.23 um 22:24 schrieb pH:
>> On 2023-05-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> While focusing on a lean window manager. You probably don't want KDE or
>>> Gnome on a decade old machine, while Cinnamon (MINT) should work smoothly.
>>
>> I went ahead and installed Mate....I wonder if I can just change over to
>> Cinammon to give it a whirl...should not have to do a whole new install.
>>
>> Maybe it's as simple as 'apt-get cinnamon' and change the window manager
>> whereever that's specified...I always forget.
>
> You can choose the desktop environment in the login-window.
>
>
Okay, thanks for the tip. I'm' set to autologin to my user at this point.

I assume I can log out and log back in and ...presto.

I have not been at the Macbook for a few days...plenty of other projects,
R-pi, laptop and this one.

pH

Am 31.05.23 um 16:31 schrieb a a:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 31.05.23 um 03:45 schrieb Rich:
>>> Joreg is one of those personality types that is just an ass and nothing
>>> more.
>>>
>>> Killfile the troll and be done with it.
>>
>> For Christ's sake do it, Troll!
>> Do you need help?
>>
>
> Idiot.
>
> Killfiles kill articles you post.
>
> They do not kill articles where another poster quotes the diarrhea that
> you continue to spurt from your ass all over the group.

You have absolutely no clue how real kill filing works.
You also do not understand what "Ignore Subthread" means and what its
consequences are. You are a bloody beginner.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> was talking out his ass and squirted the
following diarrhea into the group:
> Am 31.05.23 um 16:31 schrieb a a:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 31.05.23 um 03:45 schrieb Rich:
>>>> Joreg is one of those personality types that is just an ass and nothing
>>>> more.
>>>>
>>>> Killfile the troll and be done with it.
>>>
>>> For Christ's sake do it, Troll!
>>> Do you need help?
>>>
>>
>> Idiot.
>>
>> Killfiles kill articles you post.
>>
>> They do not kill articles where another poster quotes the diarrhea
>> that you continue to spurt from your ass all over the group.
>
> You have absolutely no clue how real kill filing works.
> You also do not understand what "Ignore Subthread" means and what its
> consequences are. You are a bloody beginner.

Posted by the troll talking out his ass and dirtying the group with his
foul diarrhea. Clearly it is you who have zero idea of the many varied
ways that a kill file works.

Go away until you can learn to be less of an asshole.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 31/05/2023 00:09, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> He didnt say that 1.5GB was just for the desktop
>>
>> Actually that's exactly what he said:
>> "The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start"
>>
>> "The Cinnamon" is a window manager (or "desktop environment")
>> according to Wikipedia, although the Wikipedia page says it's
>> currently at version 5.6.8, so 21.1 is a bit futuristic.
>>
>> I did figure that 1.5GB was probably the whole system's RAM usage,
>> but his implication was that a less "moderate" window manager than
>> Cinnamon would implicitly use much more than 1.5GB RAM, whereas I
>> don't think any decent window manager should use enough RAM to make
>> a difference at that scale.
>>
>
> I think that is semantics, as I understood it to mean that he had
> installed Mint Cinnamon as a *total package*, and that was his total RAM
> usage. Cinnamon is not *just* a window manager. It incorporate all sorts
> of other shit as well. File manager, various utilities and menus, and so
> on, so that every included system utility tends to have a 'Cinnamon look
> and feel' and if these are running as daemons, they all take up RAM.

OK, this is all the sort of heavy over-complicated stuff that puts
me off MINT in the first place.

> The realitu as far as I have bothered to take it is that raw X windows
> is under 100Mbyte, and the window manager is similar. The rest of the
> RAM usage in a typical desktop is all the system programs that are running.
> But don't take my word for it, check on your own system.

Well I did, and as I said before my Devuan system boots up with
under 150MB used (other systems use less, but are probably too old
or obscure (like Tiny Core) to be relevant). I've never used MINT,
but I know that many distros (AntiX with JWM) happily boot to a
functional desktop with that sort of memory usage. That's not just
a benefit for people with limited RAM size, but also with slower
RAM, such as the discussed computer from 2011 might have, even if
more of that slow RAM can be added.

> Mine has a clock/calendar running, the update manaqer is running, Caja
> is running, a system monitor is running and a network manager is
> running, plus there will be buried in the Poettering shit, systemd and
> its myrmidons, and pulse audio/ALSA sound messes .

Well yes I get it that you run all that because you don't really
care about RAM usage, but this Cinnamon thing was being recommended
for people who _do_ care about that.

> None of these are part of the *window manager*, although CAJA is well
> integrated with MATE. But some are part of the MATE environment, as set
> up by me the way I want it.
>
> My point is that 1.5GB is pretty normal for any desktop before you run
> any user apps like firefox etc. But its got sod all to do with the
> particular window manager and desktop environment.

OK. Personally 1.5GB before starting anything is something to fix,
but as I havent adopted all this new software that you run like
CAJA, Pulse Audio, and Systemd (although that can't be so much to
blame or I couldn't run RPi OS on my RPi Zeros with 512MB), my idea
of normal is apparantly quite different. In this context I see that
this 1.5GB figure was meaningless in the first place because little
of that was to do with the discussed choice of window manager.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On 01/06/2023 00:24, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 31/05/2023 00:09, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> He didnt say that 1.5GB was just for the desktop
>>>
>>> Actually that's exactly what he said:
>>> "The Cinnamon 21.1 on my Dell uses just 1.5 GB RAM after the start"
>>>
>>> "The Cinnamon" is a window manager (or "desktop environment")
>>> according to Wikipedia, although the Wikipedia page says it's
>>> currently at version 5.6.8, so 21.1 is a bit futuristic.
>>>
>>> I did figure that 1.5GB was probably the whole system's RAM usage,
>>> but his implication was that a less "moderate" window manager than
>>> Cinnamon would implicitly use much more than 1.5GB RAM, whereas I
>>> don't think any decent window manager should use enough RAM to make
>>> a difference at that scale.
>>>
>>
>> I think that is semantics, as I understood it to mean that he had
>> installed Mint Cinnamon as a *total package*, and that was his total RAM
>> usage. Cinnamon is not *just* a window manager. It incorporate all sorts
>> of other shit as well. File manager, various utilities and menus, and so
>> on, so that every included system utility tends to have a 'Cinnamon look
>> and feel' and if these are running as daemons, they all take up RAM.
>
> OK, this is all the sort of heavy over-complicated stuff that puts
> me off MINT in the first place.
>
>> The realitu as far as I have bothered to take it is that raw X windows
>> is under 100Mbyte, and the window manager is similar. The rest of the
>> RAM usage in a typical desktop is all the system programs that are running.
>> But don't take my word for it, check on your own system.
>
> Well I did, and as I said before my Devuan system boots up with
> under 150MB used (other systems use less, but are probably too old
> or obscure (like Tiny Core) to be relevant). I've never used MINT,
> but I know that many distros (AntiX with JWM) happily boot to a
> functional desktop with that sort of memory usage. That's not just
> a benefit for people with limited RAM size, but also with slower
> RAM, such as the discussed computer from 2011 might have, even if
> more of that slow RAM can be added.
>
>> Mine has a clock/calendar running, the update manaqer is running, Caja
>> is running, a system monitor is running and a network manager is
>> running, plus there will be buried in the Poettering shit, systemd and
>> its myrmidons, and pulse audio/ALSA sound messes .
>
> Well yes I get it that you run all that because you don't really
> care about RAM usage, but this Cinnamon thing was being recommended
> for people who _do_ care about that.
>
Sigh. Running all that is typically orthogonal to running MATE versus
Cinnamon.

I did get MATE running on a 256M netbook. By NOT installing any of the
handy stuff. Its purpose was to be an emergency web browser.

>> None of these are part of the *window manager*, although CAJA is well
>> integrated with MATE. But some are part of the MATE environment, as set
>> up by me the way I want it.
>>
>> My point is that 1.5GB is pretty normal for any desktop before you run
>> any user apps like firefox etc. But its got sod all to do with the
>> particular window manager and desktop environment.
>
> OK. Personally 1.5GB before starting anything is something to fix,
> but as I havent adopted all this new software that you run like
> CAJA, Pulse Audio, and Systemd (although that can't be so much to
> blame or I couldn't run RPi OS on my RPi Zeros with 512MB), my idea
> of normal is apparantly quite different. In this context I see that
> this 1.5GB figure was meaningless in the first place because little
> of that was to do with the discussed choice of window manager.
>
Exactly. If 1.5GB concerns you don't go looking to shave 10Mbyte off a
window manager

Start stripping out what you don't need.
That was my first point.

The second was that this pre loved HP desktop came at a very sensible
price with 8GB RAM and an SSD.

I don't NEED to waste time getting its memory usage down by killing off
stuff that Mint loads by default.

Its CPU and RAM usage is well below 'critical' (in MY application) and
its a neat responsive little machine.

--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

On 31/05/2023 18:47, a a wrote:

> Posted by the troll talking out his ass and dirtying the group with his
> foul diarrhea. Clearly it is you who have zero idea of the many varied
> ways that a kill file works.
>
> Go away until you can learn to be less of an asshole.

Is alt.flame still extant? And alt.barney.die.die.die?

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.