On 8/10/23 3:10 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 02:01:16 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
> <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <kf-dnWvP1JCx4En5nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
>
>> On 8/10/23 1:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 00:43:20 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
>>> <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <Oe-cnQaXFuF190n5nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
>>>
>>>> On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
>>>>> Much of that goes for 'merrica too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you hide under the bed?
>>>>>
>>>>> It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
>>>>> And not always doing the things that are best.
>>>>> But that goes for politicians in general.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..
>>>>>
>>>>> All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.
>>>>>
>>>>> World population will then decrease ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?
>>>>
>>>> Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia,
>>>
>>> Edward Snowden
>>
>> No choice. Somehow I really doubt he's happy.
>>
>>>> they flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.
>>>
>>> Western countries want cheap worker slaves.
>>
>> Eastern countries try to convince them that
>> de-facto slavery is a Great Thing ....
>
> In fact 'slavery' is a relative thing
> Are our gut bacteria / microbes our slaves?
> We feed them they provide us with energy
> Its nature.
>
> Same everywhere in nature.
> People will migrate to where they think it will help them.
> Maybe Russia is a bit too cold for the black Africans
> or too many other countries in between when they can get what they want in Europe just a small boat trip away,
> used to get you a room in a nice hotel in the UK...
> Language is an other factor that counts.
>
> I have never been to Russia myself, been to East Germany before and after the wall fell though.
> Life was not bad or people unhappy there as far as I remember.
> Did read these days people in East Germany are payed less .. housing, did things REALLY improve after the wall fell?
> Products? I had a nice Werra 35 mm photo camera made in East Germany, color TV set too, transistor portable TVs.
> Many things from the US are crap these days, not even counting that F35 disaster.
> I have a Whirlpool washing machine (US), and laundry drier, good thing I am experienced in electronics
> the washing machine broke down in the guarantee, power switcher design error, was fixed (new board),
> then it broke down again a bit later, as did the laundry drier...
> Got some spare parts from ebay, think I now used the last ones... Put some protection circuit against mains spikes in the thing.
> so far still working... water was leaking into the electronics too.
> not to mention all the other US crap like Teslas catching fire...
> China is cheaper and most stuff from ebay from China just works, not perfect but good enough
> like my sat receivers, short wave radio, mutimeters, keyboard and mouse, lights, wallwarts, battery chargers, solar panels,
> (just looking around), drones, cameras, OLED and LCD displays,..
> No wonder US is afraid of China, no way can they compete.
> But their Microchip PICs are OK :-)
>

Ah, obfuscation ....

Is that in the FSB handbook ? Surely !

Piss off.

On 8/7/23 4:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/08/2023 15:45, Pancho wrote:
>> On 05/08/2023 22:14, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>> On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:23:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 14:36:08 +0100 Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was actually surprised at how fast the new Ryzen was. Maybe it is
>>>>> time to buy a new PC.
>>>>
>>>>     I haven't done that in a long time. I used to buy parts and make
>>>> them but these days I buy "refurbished"* ex-corporate machines which
>>>> are
>>>> cheap and far better made than the typical consumer PC.
>>>>
>>>> * Read cleaned, OS reinstalled and stripped of asset tags.
>>>
>>> It may well be worth looking at getting a new PC.
>>>
>>> Since around 2005 my house server was a Dual Athlon PC in a noname case
>>> and not new when I got it in 2005 and has had at least two new disks
>>> (bog
>>> standard WD 500MB blue) since then.
>>
>> I think it all depends, what you want. If you don't already have a PC
>> less than 10 years old, then second-hand deals are good.
>>
>> In most respects I found a 10-year-old 2500K, OK to use. Up until a
>> couple of years ago it was my desktop, then its graphics card broke,
>> and it got relegated to HTPC, it wasn't so good at that. I've just
>> replaced it with an Orange Pi 5, with caveats, the Orange Pi 5 is
>> better as a TV computer. The Orange Pi 5 was cheap. I've also bought a
>> couple of low power new NUC types for about £200, for relatives, e.g.
>> Intel N5150, they are generally happy with them.
>>
>> Mainly I've been interested in small low wattage PCs, it is only
>> recently that they have been quicker than my old 2500K. The new big
>> desktops were quick, but not that much quicker, maybe twice as fast,
>> for a reasonable price. Now, the Ryzen 5 7600 is looking to be 3-4
>> times as fast, single thread, more than 3-4 multi thread. Which might
>> be noticeable, for me, I don't know. Without having one, it is hard to
>> know.
>>
> Its been a few years now, since I felt my machines were too slow for the
> job they were doing.
>
> I accept that people doing video editing or shooting up 3D aliens in
> unlikely scenarios may need more, but I don't.
>
> I am more replacing now to lower power consumption, although even that
> is not 100% wasted as the computers heat this room in winter.

Modern machines are INSANELY FAST. We older players
are particularly aware of that. We remember the 4004's
and 8008s's - (found an AD for an 8008 system the other
day ! Why, you could even do MORSE CODE with it ! Just
toggle those panel switches over and over to enter the
binary instructions one at a time :-)

Been there, done that.

The only people who need an overclocked i9 with the
latest NVIDIA product are obsessive GAMERS. Yes, they
have their place and DO drive tech, but .......

A fuckin Raspberry Pi would have been considered a
SUPERCOMPUTER back in the 70s.

On 8/10/23 12:10 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 02:44:46 -0400, "23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> declaimed
> the following:
>
>>
>>
>> ARM is really a CPU, not u-Controller. Different rules.
>>
>
> M-series chips fill the role of microcontroller meant to run without an
> OS (or something like FreeRTOS) direct from flash memory; the A-series
> (application) are meant to be OS-based computer systems with complicated
> boot sequences <G> (just look at most R-Pi systems -- where the /graphics
> processor/ is used to configure the ARM memory map before turning over
> control).

I tend to separate "CPU"s from "u-Controllers". They
are really different "concepts", aimed at different
universes.

u-Controllers offer VERY fine-grained control ... but
not much "performance" in the conventional sense. They
are for interacting with the often-messy Real World.

In THIS context, you CAN basically turn OFF a u-Controller
chip - no power used except waiting for a signal on an
interrupt pin. You can run the clockspeed down to almost
nothing (actually nothing on some). You can't do that
with "CPU"s. Different worlds. Different apps.

Epson did, I think still, sells 4-bit u-Controllers.
They're mostly meant for coin-cell devices like remote
controls and thermostats and such and you have to order
like 100,000 at a time. However, if you read the docs,
they are just FANTASTICALLY versatile - endless tricks
you can use to cope with Real World needs. 4-bits really
CAN be more than enough.

On a sunny day (Fri, 11 Aug 2023 01:45:58 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
<23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <M6qdnRMgFrOLVkj5nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

>On 8/10/23 3:10 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 02:01:16 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
>> <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <kf-dnWvP1JCx4En5nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
>>
>>> On 8/10/23 1:33 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 10 Aug 2023 00:43:20 -0400) it happened "23k.304"
>>>> <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote in <Oe-cnQaXFuF190n5nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/8/23 12:18 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>> Well that is a lot of Russofobia I'd say.
>>>>>> Much of that goes for 'merrica too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you hide under the bed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is true the EU government is over-reaching in some things.
>>>>>> And not always doing the things that are best.
>>>>>> But that goes for politicians in general.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is UK doing much better now? I think not if I read about food prices and housing there..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All seems to be heading to a WW3, I expect in 2024.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> World population will then decrease ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How big of a vodka ration does Putin provide ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Clue - BIG clue - people don't flee to Russia,
>>>>
>>>> Edward Snowden
>>>
>>> No choice. Somehow I really doubt he's happy.
>>>
>>>>> they flee to 'western' countries/USA instead.
>>>>
>>>> Western countries want cheap worker slaves.
>>>
>>> Eastern countries try to convince them that
>>> de-facto slavery is a Great Thing ....
>>
>> In fact 'slavery' is a relative thing
>> Are our gut bacteria / microbes our slaves?
>> We feed them they provide us with energy
>> Its nature.
>>
>> Same everywhere in nature.
>> People will migrate to where they think it will help them.
>> Maybe Russia is a bit too cold for the black Africans
>> or too many other countries in between when they can get what they want in Europe just a small boat trip away,
>> used to get you a room in a nice hotel in the UK...
>> Language is an other factor that counts.
>>
>> I have never been to Russia myself, been to East Germany before and after the wall fell though.
>> Life was not bad or people unhappy there as far as I remember.
>> Did read these days people in East Germany are payed less .. housing, did things REALLY improve after the wall fell?
>> Products? I had a nice Werra 35 mm photo camera made in East Germany, color TV set too, transistor portable TVs.
>> Many things from the US are crap these days, not even counting that F35 disaster.
>> I have a Whirlpool washing machine (US), and laundry drier, good thing I am experienced in electronics
>> the washing machine broke down in the guarantee, power switcher design error, was fixed (new board),
>> then it broke down again a bit later, as did the laundry drier...
>> Got some spare parts from ebay, think I now used the last ones... Put some protection circuit against mains spikes in the
>> thing.
>> so far still working... water was leaking into the electronics too.
>> not to mention all the other US crap like Teslas catching fire...
>> China is cheaper and most stuff from ebay from China just works, not perfect but good enough
>> like my sat receivers, short wave radio, mutimeters, keyboard and mouse, lights, wallwarts, battery chargers, solar panels,
>> (just looking around), drones, cameras, OLED and LCD displays,..
>> No wonder US is afraid of China, no way can they compete.
>> But their Microchip PICs are OK :-)
>>
>
> Ah, obfuscation ....
>
> Is that in the FSB handbook ? Surely !
>
> Piss off.

Poor guy, I have to admit your US brainwasher did work!

On 8/10/23 6:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>> No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
>>    Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>
> I believe that to be completely wrong.

Look it up. I don't have time to do all your research.

YOU don't do the re-write, the logic for that
it is built into the flash device, hidden in the
background. Reading kinda blanks what's there,
and then it has to be re-writ.

>
> And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
> assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks

Well, have fun with the bollocks ...

I was there long before any of this tech was
invented, learned the good AND bad. A lot of
the bad has been *disappeared* of late ...

IF your needs are small enough, under 256kb
or so, with u-controller apps, then look into
FRAM rather than "flash". Oh, it's a lot FASTER
too, no waiting cycles for R/W.

"Flash" is not just some dumb memory chip despite
how it tries to present itself to the user, it
has a CONTROLLER. One function is "wear-leveling"
but another underlying function is the "re-write
on read" aspect.

On 8/10/23 3:13 PM, Rich wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>>> No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
>>>   Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>>
>> I believe that to be completely wrong.
>
> It is, at least as a general statement in regards to flash memory.
> There may be /some/ flash "drives" (used generically to refer to SD and
> SATA disks) where if the controller detects an issue with the read, it
> may decide to reallocate the data to another set of flash cells.
>
>> And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
>> assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks
>
> Consider the source....
>
> I suspect he has mixed up flash technology with DRAM technology, where
> reading a row from DRAM

I am well aware of how DRAM works ... I was in
the biz BEFORE DRAM. Ah, SRAM ... so much
nicer to deal with. They couldn't scale it
up alas.

"Flash" is a "smart device". It has a controller.
One function is "wear-leveling", but another is
"rewrite on read". YOU never see this stuff.

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 01:58:15 -0400
"23k.304" <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:

> A fuckin Raspberry Pi would have been considered a
> SUPERCOMPUTER back in the 70s.

Or even quit a lot later (into the 90s), I did see a claim that a
PI4 can emulate a Cray 1 faster than the real thing.

Most people walk around carrying pocket supercomputers with more
display pixels than a 1980s terminal room, better sound reproduction than a
top end 1980s record deck, a ridiculously good camera and more internet
bandwidth than Ireland had in 1995. They sometimes unthinkingly leave them
behind or even *drop* them.

Not one of the science fiction books I own (many of them now set in
the past) saw that one coming - computer power has become so cheap and
ubiquitous that it's invisible to most people.

Now consider this - there are companies (many of them) who buy
commodity storage clusters consisting of many (over a hundred is not
unusual) nodes each with around a quarter petabyte of SSDs, half a terabyte
of RAM and multiple 100 Gb network ports on each node all seeing a common
distributed filesystem. There are even a few outfits who have regular orders
for kit like this and the biggest players don't buy these products they make
their own.

That's just one corner of the business. The outfits that sell CPU
and GPU resources are filling racks with extremely high density computing
power - several hundred cores and a few terabytes of RAM in every 2U slot.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 11:12:05 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
> > No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
> >   Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>
> I believe that to be completely wrong.

Nope - but it's not quite as it sounds for details see this patent:

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2077559A2/en

TL;DR reading does degrade the storage in flash memory which means
it needs to be rewritten before it degrades too much, which takes thousands
to millions of reads depending on the type of cell.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 11/08/2023 10:32, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 11:12:05 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>>> No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
>>>   Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>>
>> I believe that to be completely wrong.
>
> Nope - but it's not quite as it sounds for details see this patent:
>
> https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2077559A2/en
>
> TL;DR reading does degrade the storage in flash memory which means
> it needs to be rewritten before it degrades too much, which takes thousands
> to millions of reads depending on the type of cell.
>

Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten and
a thousand times less destructive than a write.

But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with adequate
RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card, anyway. So you
can safely ignore this theoretical issue

Obviously if you are building a busy NAS device, where such conditions
do not apply, you would not be using an SD card anyway.

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten and
> a thousand times less destructive than a write.
>
> But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with adequate
> RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card, anyway. So you
> can safely ignore this theoretical issue

You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to the
device where you have no access to change anything.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
> On 8/10/23 3:13 PM, Rich wrote:
>> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>>>> No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
>>>>   Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>>>
>>> I believe that to be completely wrong.
>>
>> It is, at least as a general statement in regards to flash memory.
>> There may be /some/ flash "drives" (used generically to refer to SD and
>> SATA disks) where if the controller detects an issue with the read, it
>> may decide to reallocate the data to another set of flash cells.
>>
>>> And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
>>> assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks
>>
>> Consider the source....
>>
>> I suspect he has mixed up flash technology with DRAM technology, where
>> reading a row from DRAM
>
> "Flash" is a "smart device". It has a controller.
> One function is "wear-leveling", but another is
> "rewrite on read". YOU never see this stuff.

More utter bollocks from the nymshifting troll.

DRAM's rewrite on reads - flash does not.

In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
> On 8/10/23 6:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>>> No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
>>>    Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>>
>> I believe that to be completely wrong.
>
> Look it up. I don't have time to do all your research.
>
> YOU don't do the re-write, the logic for that
> it is built into the flash device, hidden in the
> background.

> Reading kinda blanks what's there, and then it has to be re-writ.

That's the DRAM read cycle, not the flash read cycle.

>> And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
>> assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks
>
> Well, have fun with the bollocks ...
>
> I was there long before any of this tech was
> invented, learned the good AND bad. A lot of
> the bad has been *disappeared* of late ...

And so far, across about 20 different nymshifts, you've spouted by far
more incorrect bullshit than correct information (that and significant
irrelivant Abe Simpson like 'asides').

> "Flash" is not just some dumb memory chip despite
> how it tries to present itself to the user, it
> has a CONTROLLER. One function is "wear-leveling"
> but another underlying function is the "re-write
> on read" aspect.

Flash does not rewrite on read -- DRAM does, but not flash.

In comp.os.linux.misc Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 11:12:05 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>> > No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
>> >   Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>>
>> I believe that to be completely wrong.
>
> Nope - but it's not quite as it sounds for details see this
> patent:
>
> https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2077559A2/en
>
> TL;DR reading does degrade the storage in flash memory which
> means it needs to be rewritten before it degrades too much, which
> takes thousands to millions of reads depending on the type of cell.

This patent is describing what TNP posted in his other thread about
"disturbing" adjacent cells:

Quoting from early in the description:

The read disturb error is such a phenomenon that, when data on a
certain page of a certain physical block are read out frequently, data
being stored in a cell on other pages of the data read block are
changed.

And a little further on they detail the number of reads necessary to
trigger the refreshing rewrite:

For example, among currently available products, the single-level
cell (SLC) type has the limit of the number of data read of 100,000
to 1,000,000 times and the multi-level cell (MLC) type has the
limit of the number of data read of 10,000 to 100,000 times
(generally, these limits tend to be lowered as the data reading
frequency is increased).

However the nymshift troll is presenting its false argument as "all
reads cause a rewrite".

On 11/08/2023 13:20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten and
>> a thousand times less destructive than a write.
>>
>> But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with adequate
>> RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card, anyway. So you
>> can safely ignore this theoretical issue
>
> You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to the
> device where you have no access to change anything.
>
Well not exactly, the argument was about minimising reads as well as
writes to minimise wear.

My point was to get back from armchair theorising to practicalities. In
practice the disk cache reduces regular reads issues to the card, to zero.

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On 11/08/2023 15:13, Rich wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc 23k.304 <23k304@bfxw9.net> wrote:
>> On 8/10/23 3:13 PM, Rich wrote:
>>> In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 10/08/2023 06:41, 23k.304 wrote:
>>>>> No such thing as "read only" with SD/Flash tech.
>>>>>   Even reading them means re-writing them. Really !
>>>>
>>>> I believe that to be completely wrong.
>>>
>>> It is, at least as a general statement in regards to flash memory.
>>> There may be /some/ flash "drives" (used generically to refer to SD and
>>> SATA disks) where if the controller detects an issue with the read, it
>>> may decide to reallocate the data to another set of flash cells.
>>>
>>>> And unless you can provide some sort of evidence to back up that
>>>> assertion, I have to say I consider it utter bollocks
>>>
>>> Consider the source....
>>>
>>> I suspect he has mixed up flash technology with DRAM technology, where
>>> reading a row from DRAM
>>
>> "Flash" is a "smart device". It has a controller.
>> One function is "wear-leveling", but another is
>> "rewrite on read". YOU never see this stuff.
>
> More utter bollocks from the nymshifting troll.
>
> DRAM's rewrite on reads - flash does not.

That sounds about right to me.

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:10:20 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 11/08/2023 13:20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten
> >> and a thousand times less destructive than a write.
> >>
> >> But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with
> >> adequate RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card,
> >> anyway. So you can safely ignore this theoretical issue
> >
> > You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to
> > the device where you have no access to change anything.
> >
> Well not exactly, the argument was about minimising reads as well as
> writes to minimise wear.

Yeah that was silly.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/08/2023 13:20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023 12:21:01 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that is what I found, also. Essentially a read is between ten
>>> and a thousand times less destructive than a write.
>>>
>>> But in the context of a PI running Raspios or other Linux, with
>>> adequate RAM, 99.99% of reads will be from cache, not the card,
>>> anyway. So you can safely ignore this theoretical issue
>>
>> You pretty much have to ignore it anyway it's all internal to
>> the device where you have no access to change anything.
>>
> Well not exactly, the argument was about minimising reads as well as
> writes to minimise wear.
>
> My point was to get back from armchair theorising to practicalities.
> In practice the disk cache reduces regular reads issues to the card,
> to zero.

For what you've described as your use cases for the PI's, yes, the
Linux disk cache should minimize the number of reads that hit the SD
card. That is once it has booted and reached its normal operational
steady state.

You should end up seeing very close to zero reads and writes to the PI
sd cards given what you've described to us. Certianly a low enough
rate that even a less than stellar card should last for quite a long
time.

On 8/7/23 9:55 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> No Empire Has Lasted Yet in history, US is way over the hill.
>> Likely Texas will soon leave that Union... the others will follow.
> Yes, these 19th century Empires are a bit passé..the end of Russian
> federation, the European Union, the United states - all are possible and
> more, or less likely as time moves on.
>
> In an unlikely turn of phrase, in rapidly changing world contexts, they
> are simply  too big to survive.
>
> What suits downtown New York does not suit wilderness Utah. And vice versa.
>
> federalisation at least and possible independence, whilst maintaining
> overall ties under some NATO and Interpol style pan national
> organisations would seem to be the way forward

First off, NO state will be leaving the USA - it's
actually illegal, they can and will send in the army.
Bet on it.

As for "differences" ... that was part of the whole
idea of a United STATES. Not every environment, every
local culture, every local need, is the same. Truly
"national" govts like to forget that - and it causes
BIG problems. Can even cause bloody revolutions where
everyone suffers horribly.

As for "empires" - there's a FALLACY to "empire" in
the usual meaning. They only survive by engulfing
more and more - and every bit they obtain soon
becomes a management EXPENSE. It's doomed. From
Sumer and Akkadia all the way to Rome and the
Mongols and Ottomans, this has been the horrible
horrible truth of "empires". They are about EGO,
not fiscal reality.

But then this was SUPPOSED to be about what to do
with /var/log :-)

On 8/7/23 21:27, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 18:07:48 +0100) it happened The Natural
> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in <uar8d4$2ui9t$2@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 07/08/2023 17:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>>> On 07/08/2023 16:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:49:46 +0100) it happened The Natural
>>>> Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>>>> <uaqspr$2skqd$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>
>>>>> On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>> It is better to peacefully live together with Russia
>>>>>
>>>>> ROFLMAO.
>>>> \
>>>>
>>>> I do seem to remember that it was Russia that freed much of the
>>>> European continent from the nazis in WW2
>>>
>>> Yes, but they did it with UK/US planes, tanks, ammunition
>>> Much of it shipped via the northern route around Norway/Finland to the
>>> detriment of many "allied" merchant seamen.
>>>
>>> Oh, and then they occupied what they could.
>>> Was Stalin worse than Hitler?
>>> He managed to kill a hell of a lot of people of "other" ethnicities.
>>>
>> I wouldn't want to pick one out of Putin, Stalin or Hitler, or indeed
>> Robert Mugabe, or Pol Pot, or Chairman Mao. Or indeed Kim Yong Um and
>> his utterly murderous sister.
>
> Well there were some US presidents .. for example one nuking Japan and Bush attacking Iraq
> that maybe you should add to the list?
Roosevelt initiated the Manhattan Project and Truman knew
nothing of it. The pacification of Japan by conventional means would
have been horrific in casualties and take several years. The bombs
were Horrific and poorly done. Have you read "last Train from
Hiroshima" which contains some clear descriptions of hell brought
to Earth. Or even the 12 volume version of the manga by a young
man who lived thru the Hiroshima bombing "Barefoot Gen" as a child.

But the Pacific War was over weeks after the 2nd bomb.

The Japanese people had survived a foolish and incompetent
Military Dictatorship and they did pretty well in the Occupation
because no one was starving them to feed the Military Machine.
When North Korea's dictatorship attempted to unite the nation
and the American Government and the United Nations objected then
the Japanese restored their economy by selling manufactured goods
like clothing to the American Military.

> And now ByeThen's clown shitlensky burning his people in a war he cannot win
> just to help sell US arms.

The Ukrainian President was not a Clown but a comedian which
are two very different things. Putin looks more and more like a Clown
but the RF has to suffer the whims of the autocrat. He fought back
with the forces at his disposal as soon as the Russians began their
invasion. Putin was misinformed by his own intelligence services
that the Ukrainians who spoke Russian were ready to throw in with
the RF. They were not.

No US soldiers fighting the Russians and only if the Ukraine
wins is there a chance of anyone supplying them with arms getting paid.
Well Biden may not win that war against the Fascists of the Russian
Federation who wish to restore a 19th Century Empire when they have
more resources in their nation than they know how to exploit but in
providing arms and munitions he is exhibiting the American spirit.
We wish democratic republican Governments for all people because
our own people have done so well under such a government where the
people are empowered.

> Not even counting murdering the American Natives...

A lot of them survived and their children's children are getting
their land back with casino money spent by the usurpers of their
patrimony.

> And later doing nuke tests on their land ...

Far worse was the Uranium mining on South-West Indian Reservations which
contaminated the soil and water in the vicinity.

>
>
>> It seems that the transition from barbarism towards westernised
>> technology is marked by the rise of psychopathic despots who have no
>> regard for their people whatsoever. And whose sole reason for being in
>> power is that they somehow acquired industrialised weapons first.
>
> Maybe it is about greed?

Power is what drives these people. Based on paranoid fear and
the need to assert control. Putin's ally Trump demonstrates this
admirably as he strikes out at the truth of matters.
Nixon behaved well until he had power when he revealed the limits of
his sanity.
bliss

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On 13/08/2023 03:40, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 8/7/23 21:27, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 18:07:48 +0100) it happened The
>> Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>> <uar8d4$2ui9t$2@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>> On 07/08/2023 17:01, Chris Elvidge wrote:
>>>> On 07/08/2023 16:43, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> On a sunny day (Mon, 7 Aug 2023 14:49:46 +0100) it happened
>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>>>>> <uaqspr$2skqd$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/08/2023 12:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>> It is better to peacefully live together with Russia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ROFLMAO.
>>>>> \
>>>>>
>>>>> I do seem to remember that it was Russia that freed much of
>>>>> the European continent from the nazis in WW2
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but they did it with UK/US planes, tanks, ammunition Much
>>>> of it shipped via the northern route around Norway/Finland to
>>>> the detriment of many "allied" merchant seamen.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and then they occupied what they could. Was Stalin worse
>>>> than Hitler? He managed to kill a hell of a lot of people of
>>>> "other" ethnicities.
>>>>
>>> I wouldn't want to pick one out of Putin, Stalin or Hitler, or
>>> indeed Robert Mugabe, or Pol Pot, or Chairman Mao. Or indeed Kim
>>> Yong Um and his utterly murderous sister.
>>
>> Well there were some US presidents .. for example one nuking Japan
>> and Bush attacking Iraq that maybe you should add to the list?
>
> Roosevelt initiated the Manhattan Project and Truman knew nothing of
> it. The pacification of Japan by conventional means would have been
> horrific in casualties and take several years. The bombs were
> Horrific and poorly done. Have you read "last Train from Hiroshima"
> which contains some clear descriptions of hell brought to Earth. Or
> even the 12 volume version of the manga by a young man who lived thru
> the Hiroshima bombing "Barefoot Gen" as a child.
>
> But the Pacific War was over weeks after the 2nd bomb.

Indeed. The necessity then was to achieve the inevitable surrender of
Japan with the minimum bloodshed. I have known people in Japanese
concentration camps who understood the true nature and brutality of the
Japanese mindset then, and owe their lives to the early surrender.
The philosophical discussion as to whose nation citizen's lives are
worth more in a wartime context, I will leave to others.
>
> The Japanese people had survived a foolish and incompetent Military
> Dictatorship and they did pretty well in the Occupation because no
> one was starving them to feed the Military Machine. When North
> Korea's dictatorship attempted to unite the nation and the American
> Government and the United Nations objected then the Japanese restored
> their economy by selling manufactured goods like clothing to the
> American Military.
>
>> And now ByeThen's clown shitlensky burning his people in a war he
>> cannot win just to help sell US arms.
>
> The Ukrainian President was not a Clown but a comedian which are two
> very different things. Putin looks more and more like a Clown but the
> RF has to suffer the whims of the autocrat. He fought back with the
> forces at his disposal as soon as the Russians began their invasion.
> Putin was misinformed by his own intelligence services that the
> Ukrainians who spoke Russian were ready to throw in with the RF.
> They were not.
Some of them undoubtedly were, and Zaporiszhia should not have fallen at
the speed it did.

In the end it is simple karma, Putin kept his people in the dark and
feed them bullshit, and so they in return kept him in the dark and fed
him the bullshit he wanted to hear...

He is furious. He reminds me of a crook I once worked for. He didnt pay
me for three months so I sold some products he had asked me to fix, to
get my wages.

"Where did you learn a trick like that?' he asked.#

From you, Tony, from you"...as a mutual acquaintance said at the time
'he's got you, there, Tony'

Putin has taught the entire nation how to lie cheat bully and steal. And
he is furious that they learnt that lesson all too well.

Incidentally as some commentators elsewhere have pointed out. the US is
not actually donating anything of value: everything donated so far was
more or less obsolescent kit that was already written off: And its
replacement *already* authorised in defence budgets.

> No US soldiers fighting the Russians and only if the Ukraine wins is
> there a chance of anyone supplying them with arms getting paid. Well
> Biden may not win that war against the Fascists of the Russian
> Federation who wish to restore a 19th Century Empire when they have
> more resources in their nation than they know how to exploit but in
> providing arms and munitions he is exhibiting the American spirit. We
> wish democratic republican Governments for all people because our own
> people have done so well under such a government where the people are
> empowered.
>
Indeed. That is the morality play being played out. Who is stronger? A
corrupt dictator who maintains power by lies and threats, or a regime
that has - or seems to have - the genuine support of its people, enough
that at least some of them are prepared to die to protect it.

In the end do hoi polloi actually matter? It seems that when you make
war on your neighbour, yes indeed they do.

>> Not even counting murdering the American Natives...
>
> A lot of them survived and their children's children are getting
> their land back with casino money spent by the usurpers of their
> patrimony.
>
>> And later doing nuke tests on their land ...
>
> Far worse was the Uranium mining on South-West Indian Reservations
> which contaminated the soil and water in the vicinity.
>

Uranium isn't such a demon as is supposed. Large areas of England are
too radioactive *naturally* to build a (nuclear) power station on. They
already exceed statutory limits for power station workers. And the
limits set outside Fukushima that were evacuated.

It is a favourite destination for holidaymakers.

>>
>>
>>> It seems that the transition from barbarism towards westernised
>>> technology is marked by the rise of psychopathic despots who have
>>> no regard for their people whatsoever. And whose sole reason for
>>> being in power is that they somehow acquired industrialised
>>> weapons first.
>>
>> Maybe it is about greed?
>
> Power is what drives these people. Based on paranoid fear and the
> need to assert control. Putin's ally Trump demonstrates this
> admirably as he strikes out at the truth of matters. Nixon behaved
> well until he had power when he revealed the limits of his sanity.
>

I am not so sure that the Donald would be supporting Russia now.
Most of what the Liberal Left in America absorbs as morality is in fact
slightly modified Russian Marxism watered down and called 'social
justice; and was a cold war tool of destabilisation, and still is.

It would make no sense for Putin *just* to buy Republicans. I am sure
that there are just as many Democrats on the payroll, or with skeletons
in the cupboard that the FSB knows of.

What will be interesting is what will happen to the West if Russia does
collapse as an organised crime mafia cartel.

How many 'organisations' and 'social movements' will simply vanish from
lack of funding?

> bliss
>

--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”

Tom Wolfe