When it comes to classic FPS games, everybody knows "Doom",
"Wolfenstein 3D", "Quake", and "Duke Nukem 3D". Some may remember less
well-known games such as "Strife", "System Shock", "Blood", or
"Descent". But the first-person shooter genre was rife with titles,
and for all the greats of that era, there were a dozen more that have
been forgotten in the intervening decades.

So, finding this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lGlyxFLuDU the
other day was a fun reminder of some of these lost examples of early
FPS games*. Me - being the DOS-era games afficiando that I am - I was
already familiar with the vast majority of the games showcased, but
even I discovered a few new ones (I could also point out a few the
video missed, such as "Nam", "Tunnel B1", and "Deus" ;-)

Of course, some of these games have been forgotten because they were -
at best - unoriginal and derivative. For most, though, that would be
an aspirational goal; there are a lot of stinkers in the list. There
are a few that I remember, if not fondly, then with a certain respect.
"ZPC", for instance, was one of the first FPS games to use the
cel-shaded art-style, "Rebel Moon" for its colored-lighting, and
"Chasm: The Rift" as a "Quake" for those still on a 80386.

So watch the video; maybe you'll rediscover one or two games you loved
(or at least played) and haven't given a thought to in years.

-------------------
* Full list for those not interested in watching the video:
Corporation / Cybercon III / Robocop 3 / Blake Stone: Aliens of
Gold / Bram Stoker's Dracula / In Extremis / Island Peril /
Isle of the Dead / Ken's Labyrinth / Lethal Tender /
Shadowcaster / Terminator Rampage / Corridor 7 / CyClones /
Depth Dwellers / Fortress of Dr. Radiaki / Hidden Below /
Nitemare 3D / Operation Bodycount / Cybermage: Darklight
Awakening / Dungeons of Kremlin / In Pursuit of Greed /
Killing Time / HURL / La Cosa Nostra / Nerves of Steel /
Old Gold 3D / Tekwar / Virus Explosion / Witchaven / Wrath
of Earth / Angst: Rahzs Revenge / Assassin 2015 / Azrael's
Tear / Cyberdillo / Marathon 2: Durandal / Rebel Moon / Rex
Blade / XS / ZPC / Chasm: The Rift / Forbes Corporate
Warrior / Last Rites / Lifeforce Tenka / Mars3D / Damage
Incorporated / Incidente em Varginha / Liquidator /
Target / Mortyr 2093-1944 / Pyl / Raising Dead /
Redline / Incidente em Varginha / Liquidator / Target /
Mortyr 2093-1944 / Pyl / Raising Dead / Redline

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

Played
Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold - used the Wolfenstein engine licensed by iD
after they released DOOM

Ken's Labyrinth - early other 3d engine from epic megagames as I recall
- not very developed, but it was very early in 3d

Shadowcaster - had some serious bugs, but very fun while it worked

Cybermage: Darklight Awakening - loved this game - spell-like abilities,
vehicles etc in an era where DOOM could barely fake having 3d

Tekwar - not only played the game, own the TV series on DVD

Mortyr 2093-1944 - vaguely remember the name Mortyr - awful game as I
recall

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

On Sun, 21 May 2023 15:58:47 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

>Played
>Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold - used the Wolfenstein engine licensed by iD
>after they released DOOM

<pedant mode>
(which is to say, I am nudging my glasses back up onto my nose and
speaking with a nasally voice)

Actually, I think you'll find that the game was released BEFORE Doom.
I mean, sure, it was only FIVE DAYS before Doom, but that still means
it came out first.

(snort-laugh)

</pedant mode>

"Blake Stone" actually added a number of features to the Wolf3D game
(it's been a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall you could
revisit levels, ammo lying around would explode if you shot it, it had
an inventory system, and NPCs you could interact with), which were
quite impressive additions. Unfortunately, the core gameplay -
shooting bad guys in overly mazelike levels whilst collecting loot to
earn the high score - hadn't changed a bit, which made "Blake Stone"
feel more like an overly ambitious Wolf3D mod than a game that stood
on its own merits.

Oh, and that whole "Doom" thing might have had a bit of an impact too.
;-)

>Ken's Labyrinth - early other 3d engine from epic megagames as I recall
>- not very developed, but it was very early in 3d

IIRC, "Ken's Labyrinth" was originally designed as Ken Silverman as a
tech-demo for his 3D engine. The game itself was entirely secondary;
even for the time, the story was throw-away (Aliens kidnapped your dog
so go rescue him!). Silverman would later jump ship to Apogee where he
created the Build engine that powered a little game called "Duke Nukem
3D" (AFAIK, the two engines were distinct, but techniques learned from
creating KL were used in DN3D).

>Shadowcaster - had some serious bugs, but very fun while it worked

I don't recall any bugs, but it was an Origin game so it probably was
chock-full of 'em. "Shadowcaster" - created by Raven games - also
utilized the Wolf3D engine, starting a long relationship between that
developer and Id Games. It was a fantasy FPS where you took the role
of a mighty-morphing teenager who could transform into various beast
forms. Like "Blake Stone" above, Raven added a number of features to
the core engine - vastly improved graphics, swimming, inventory, etc.
Still, the limitations of the engine, the fact that most of your
combat was melee-only, and the still too-mazelike levels made for a
mediocre game. It was an impressive freshman effort for Raven, but
beyond that was mostly forgettable.

>Cybermage: Darklight Awakening - loved this game - spell-like abilities,
>vehicles etc in an era where DOOM could barely fake having 3d

"Cybermage's" biggest improvement over other Doom-clones was its
addition of SVGA graphics. Unfortunately, few PCs of the era could
manage to run the game at SVGA, which meant few games could experience
"Cybermage" in its full glory. This was partly due to the limited CPU
power of the time, but also due to poor optimization (years later, PCs
would /still/ struggle with the game). What was left was a mediocre
shooter. Personally, I always found the game's graphics to be a bit
too murky and dark, and the interface was pretty clunky. Like many
Origin games, it was overly ambitious, throwing in all sorts of new
features and an overbearing story. It didn't really stand out from the
crowd either, being exactly as 2.5D as its competitors, and even the
vehicle modes (really just a cockpit texture pasted on top of your
HUD) had been used in other, better games.

>Tekwar - not only played the game, own the TV series on DVD

Released by Capcom (the pinnacle of entertainment!) fully in the
middle of the live-action video craze, "Tek War" featured video of
William Shatner revisiting his role as Walter Bascom. The game was
extremely unpolished; it utilized a prototype version of the Build
engine. Some of its levels were impressive... in concept if not
actualization. It was one of the earliest attempts of a game to try
and recreate a "real world" environment rather than the surreal mazes
that dominated the genre, and it made an earnest effort at it. The
game's city featured NPCs (who you'd get penalized for shooting) and a
bus and subway system you could use to quickly navigate the streets.
But the actual combat mechanics were awful, with underpowered weapons,
brain-dead AI and floaty movement.

>Mortyr 2093-1944 - vaguely remember the name Mortyr - awful game as I
>recall

"Mortyr" got a really bad reputation here on this very newsgroup, with
a lot of people blasting it as 'the worst FPS ever made'. I don't
think it really deserved that title but it wasn't a very good FPS
either... and its fascination with Nazi Germany felt sort of icky
(even if, ultimately, your goal was to undermine the regime). These
days it would be probably seen as an early example of a 'Slav-jank'
game and in some respects the game was notable (visually I think it
was actually a small cut above its competitors, for instance).
Nonetheless, it's not really a game worth seeking out. Not being
totally awful still isn't much of a recommendation.

Of all the games listed in that video, there are only a handful I
haven't heard of or played; specifically, Cybercon III,
Lethal Tender, Hidden Below, Dungeons of Kremlin, La Costra Nostra,
Virus Explosion, Forbes Corporate Warrior, Lifeforce Tenka, Mars 3D,
Damage Incorporated, Liquidator, Pyl, Raising Dead.

Most of the ones I missed are either Russian imports (e,g, Lethal
Tender, Dungeons of Kremlin), small shareware or demo releases (Costra
Nostra), or from the Win9x era (most of the last third of the list).
But over the years I've managed to acquire most of the rest. Whether
this is because I've an interest in the history and development of the
genre or am just punishing myself for some long-forgotten sin is a
question for the reader to decide. ;-P

Four as a hardcore FPS gamer back then on my PCs. :O

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

> When it comes to classic FPS games, everybody knows "Doom",
> "Wolfenstein 3D", "Quake", and "Duke Nukem 3D". Some may remember less
> well-known games such as "Strife", "System Shock", "Blood", or
> "Descent". But the first-person shooter genre was rife with titles,
> and for all the greats of that era, there were a dozen more that have
> been forgotten in the intervening decades.

> So, finding this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lGlyxFLuDU the
> other day was a fun reminder of some of these lost examples of early
> FPS games*. Me - being the DOS-era games afficiando that I am - I was
> already familiar with the vast majority of the games showcased, but
> even I discovered a few new ones (I could also point out a few the
> video missed, such as "Nam", "Tunnel B1", and "Deus" ;-)

> Of course, some of these games have been forgotten because they were -
> at best - unoriginal and derivative. For most, though, that would be
> an aspirational goal; there are a lot of stinkers in the list. There
> are a few that I remember, if not fondly, then with a certain respect.
> "ZPC", for instance, was one of the first FPS games to use the
> cel-shaded art-style, "Rebel Moon" for its colored-lighting, and
> "Chasm: The Rift" as a "Quake" for those still on a 80386.

> So watch the video; maybe you'll rediscover one or two games you loved
> (or at least played) and haven't given a thought to in years.

> -------------------
> * Full list for those not interested in watching the video:
> Corporation / Cybercon III / Robocop 3 / Blake Stone: Aliens of
> Gold / Bram Stoker's Dracula / In Extremis / Island Peril /
> Isle of the Dead / Ken's Labyrinth / Lethal Tender /
> Shadowcaster / Terminator Rampage / Corridor 7 / CyClones /
> Depth Dwellers / Fortress of Dr. Radiaki / Hidden Below /
> Nitemare 3D / Operation Bodycount / Cybermage: Darklight
> Awakening / Dungeons of Kremlin / In Pursuit of Greed /
> Killing Time / HURL / La Cosa Nostra / Nerves of Steel /
> Old Gold 3D / Tekwar / Virus Explosion / Witchaven / Wrath
> of Earth / Angst: Rahzs Revenge / Assassin 2015 / Azrael's
> Tear / Cyberdillo / Marathon 2: Durandal / Rebel Moon / Rex
> Blade / XS / ZPC / Chasm: The Rift / Forbes Corporate
> Warrior / Last Rites / Lifeforce Tenka / Mars3D / Damage
> Incorporated / Incidente em Varginha / Liquidator /
> Target / Mortyr 2093-1944 / Pyl / Raising Dead /
> Redline / Incidente em Varginha / Liquidator / Target /
> Mortyr 2093-1944 / Pyl / Raising Dead / Redline

--
"In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now." --Philippians 1:4-5. Quiet warm weekend with 8.8h of Z & biological bugs! Lakers suck like Celtics. :P
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>On Sun, 21 May 2023 15:58:47 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>Played
>>Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold - used the Wolfenstein engine licensed by iD
>>after they released DOOM
>
><pedant mode>
>(which is to say, I am nudging my glasses back up onto my nose and
>speaking with a nasally voice)
>
>Actually, I think you'll find that the game was released BEFORE Doom.
>I mean, sure, it was only FIVE DAYS before Doom, but that still means
>it came out first.
>
>(snort-laugh)
>
></pedant mode>

It's been long enough that I can't say for sure, but I know I played
DOOM before Blake Stone. 0.99c I think the shareware build was DOOM
without working sound - patched a few days or so later so it recognized
SB cards.

>"Blake Stone" actually added a number of features to the Wolf3D game
>(it's been a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall you could
>revisit levels, ammo lying around would explode if you shot it, it had
>an inventory system, and NPCs you could interact with), which were
>quite impressive additions. Unfortunately, the core gameplay -
>shooting bad guys in overly mazelike levels whilst collecting loot to
>earn the high score - hadn't changed a bit, which made "Blake Stone"
>feel more like an overly ambitious Wolf3D mod than a game that stood
>on its own merits.

>Oh, and that whole "Doom" thing might have had a bit of an impact too.
>;-)

The Pseudo 3d of DOOM with everything not being perfectly flat did have
an effect.

>>Ken's Labyrinth - early other 3d engine from epic megagames as I recall
>>- not very developed, but it was very early in 3d
>
>IIRC, "Ken's Labyrinth" was originally designed as Ken Silverman as a
>tech-demo for his 3D engine. The game itself was entirely secondary;
>even for the time, the story was throw-away (Aliens kidnapped your dog
>so go rescue him!). Silverman would later jump ship to Apogee where he
>created the Build engine that powered a little game called "Duke Nukem
>3D" (AFAIK, the two engines were distinct, but techniques learned from
>creating KL were used in DN3D).
>
>>Shadowcaster - had some serious bugs, but very fun while it worked
>
>I don't recall any bugs, but it was an Origin game so it probably was
>chock-full of 'em. "Shadowcaster" - created by Raven games - also
>utilized the Wolf3D engine, starting a long relationship between that
>developer and Id Games. It was a fantasy FPS where you took the role
>of a mighty-morphing teenager who could transform into various beast
>forms. Like "Blake Stone" above, Raven added a number of features to
>the core engine - vastly improved graphics, swimming, inventory, etc.
>Still, the limitations of the engine, the fact that most of your
>combat was melee-only, and the still too-mazelike levels made for a
>mediocre game. It was an impressive freshman effort for Raven, but
>beyond that was mostly forgettable.

It was fun while it worked and I did manage to finish it once.
The second play through I got maybe 60-80% through (bit vague after all
these years) and there was a transformation bug that stopped you dead in
the game - no more progress possible.

>>Cybermage: Darklight Awakening - loved this game - spell-like abilities,
>>vehicles etc in an era where DOOM could barely fake having 3d
>
>"Cybermage's" biggest improvement over other Doom-clones was its
>addition of SVGA graphics. Unfortunately, few PCs of the era could
>manage to run the game at SVGA, which meant few games could experience
>"Cybermage" in its full glory. This was partly due to the limited CPU
>power of the time, but also due to poor optimization (years later, PCs
>would /still/ struggle with the game). What was left was a mediocre
>shooter. Personally, I always found the game's graphics to be a bit
>too murky and dark, and the interface was pretty clunky. Like many
>Origin games, it was overly ambitious, throwing in all sorts of new
>features and an overbearing story. It didn't really stand out from the
>crowd either, being exactly as 2.5D as its competitors, and even the
>vehicle modes (really just a cockpit texture pasted on top of your
>HUD) had been used in other, better games.

The flight felt organic and smooth as I recall, whereas DOOMs fake3d had
you shooting straight ahead at the wall not up at the demon on the
second floor until you were pointed at _exactly_ the right pixel for it
to send the bullets "up" instead of forward.

Rise of the Triad was another shooter of the era that had this problem
as I recall (or maybe it was mouse movement that jumped several pixels
making it a real hassle to shoot things at range since it refused to let
you put the crosshairs on the enemy, just near them as a result.)

Cybermage's story was not excellent but the gameplay felt fresh compared
to the "the story is in a text file that accompanies the game not in the
game itself" of games like DOOM. If any game of the era deserves a
remake I think Cybermage is a contender.

>>Tekwar - not only played the game, own the TV series on DVD
>
>Released by Capcom (the pinnacle of entertainment!) fully in the
>middle of the live-action video craze, "Tek War" featured video of
>William Shatner revisiting his role as Walter Bascom. The game was
>extremely unpolished; it utilized a prototype version of the Build
>engine. Some of its levels were impressive... in concept if not
>actualization. It was one of the earliest attempts of a game to try
>and recreate a "real world" environment rather than the surreal mazes
>that dominated the genre, and it made an earnest effort at it. The
>game's city featured NPCs (who you'd get penalized for shooting) and a
>bus and subway system you could use to quickly navigate the streets.
>But the actual combat mechanics were awful, with underpowered weapons,
>brain-dead AI and floaty movement.

>>Mortyr 2093-1944 - vaguely remember the name Mortyr - awful game as I
>>recall
>
>"Mortyr" got a really bad reputation here on this very newsgroup, with
>a lot of people blasting it as 'the worst FPS ever made'. I don't
>think it really deserved that title but it wasn't a very good FPS
>either... and its fascination with Nazi Germany felt sort of icky
>(even if, ultimately, your goal was to undermine the regime). These
>days it would be probably seen as an early example of a 'Slav-jank'
>game and in some respects the game was notable (visually I think it
>was actually a small cut above its competitors, for instance).
>Nonetheless, it's not really a game worth seeking out. Not being
>totally awful still isn't much of a recommendation.

I didn't think it even had graphics that good. It felt to me like it was
a shareware game from years earlier that just happened to support higher
resolutions without having any real reason to use those higher
resolutions.

After a few dud "Iron curtain" games I pretty much gave up on everything
from Eastern Europe until S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

That era had so damn many games coming out in shareware and full
commercial there just wasn't time to waste on the crappy ones.

Another fave of mine from the time, although perhaps not technically a
FPS was Quarantine - where you were in an "Escape from New York" type
prison driving a cab to earn money for upgrades so you could possibly
escape. I seem to remember it had combat if not on foot than in
vehicles (including shooting out the windows at other cars with a hand
held gun.)

>Of all the games listed in that video, there are only a handful I
>haven't heard of or played; specifically, Cybercon III,
>Lethal Tender, Hidden Below, Dungeons of Kremlin, La Costra Nostra,
>Virus Explosion, Forbes Corporate Warrior, Lifeforce Tenka, Mars 3D,
>Damage Incorporated, Liquidator, Pyl, Raising Dead.

Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
associated with snagging those files.

>Most of the ones I missed are either Russian imports (e,g, Lethal
>Tender, Dungeons of Kremlin), small shareware or demo releases (Costra
>Nostra), or from the Win9x era (most of the last third of the list).
>But over the years I've managed to acquire most of the rest. Whether
>this is because I've an interest in the history and development of the
>genre or am just punishing myself for some long-forgotten sin is a
>question for the reader to decide. ;-P

I thought you had pokemon disease - you have to collect em all?

Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
....
> Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
> the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
> and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
> associated with snagging those files.

Well, CDs & Internet existed back then too! ;)

I played these five from this compiled nostaglia video:
Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold (Jam Productions - 1993)
Ken's Labyrinth (Advanced Systems - 1993) 01:36
Terminator Rampage (Bethesda - 1993) 02:12
Corridor 7 (Capstone - 1994) 02:24
Tekwar (Capstone - 1995) 05:24
Witchaven (Capstone - 1995) 05:48

Marathon 2 was mentioned, but didn't the first game get ported to PCs
after Macs release? I know I briefly played it on my college dorm's
new PowerMac back then.

--
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." --Acts 1:8. Quiet warm weekend with a lot of Z, biological bugs, watching, & eyePhone gaming. Lakers & Celtics suck again. :P
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Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
....
> Marathon 2 was mentioned, but didn't the first game get ported to PCs
> after Macs release? I know I briefly played it on my college dorm
> ROOMMATE (Bullfrog)'s new PowerMac back then.

Gah, need an edit newsgroup post option since I missed words and didn't proofread. So, I fixed my above quoted comment to be clearer. :P
--
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." --Acts 1:8. Quiet warm weekend with a lot of Z, biological bugs, watching, & eyePhone gaming. Lakers & Celtics suck again. :P
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Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
> Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> ...
> > Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
> > the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
> > and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
> > associated with snagging those files.

> Well, CDs & Internet existed back then too! ;)

> I played these five from this compiled nostaglia video:
> Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold (Jam Productions - 1993)
> Ken's Labyrinth (Advanced Systems - 1993) 01:36
> Terminator Rampage (Bethesda - 1993) 02:12
> Corridor 7 (Capstone - 1994) 02:24
> Tekwar (Capstone - 1995) 05:24
> Witchaven (Capstone - 1995) 05:48

Also, I only played these briefly with their sharewares and demos. None
of them were worth playing their full versions.

--
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." --Acts 1:8. Quiet warm weekend with a lot of Z, biological bugs, watching, & eyePhone gaming. Lakers & Celtics suck again. :P
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
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On Mon, 22 May 2023 11:28:15 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

>Marathon 2 was mentioned, but didn't the first game get ported to PCs
>after Macs release? I know I briefly played it on my college dorm's
>new PowerMac back then.

"Marathon 2 Durandal" was released in 1996 to Windows95. This was a
year later after the Macintosh release (Nov 1995), but that falls
within the "forgotten FPS games of the 90s" limitation the video set
for itself.

>>I thought you had pokemon disease - you have to collect em all?

Yes, but it does more for my self-esteem if I describe my condition as
"an avid interest in the history and development of DOS games" rather
than as a Pokemon-class hoarder. ;-)

On Sun, 21 May 2023 10:07:30 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>
>When it comes to classic FPS games, everybody knows "Doom",
>"Wolfenstein 3D", "Quake", and "Duke Nukem 3D". Some may remember less
>well-known games such as "Strife", "System Shock", "Blood", or
>"Descent". But the first-person shooter genre was rife with titles,
>and for all the greats of that era, there were a dozen more that have
>been forgotten in the intervening decades.
>
>So, finding this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lGlyxFLuDU the
>other day was a fun reminder of some of these lost examples of early
>FPS games*. Me - being the DOS-era games afficiando that I am - I was
>already familiar with the vast majority of the games showcased, but
>even I discovered a few new ones (I could also point out a few the
>video missed, such as "Nam", "Tunnel B1", and "Deus" ;-)
>
>Of course, some of these games have been forgotten because they were -
>at best - unoriginal and derivative. For most, though, that would be
>an aspirational goal; there are a lot of stinkers in the list. There
>are a few that I remember, if not fondly, then with a certain respect.
>"ZPC", for instance, was one of the first FPS games to use the
>cel-shaded art-style, "Rebel Moon" for its colored-lighting, and
>"Chasm: The Rift" as a "Quake" for those still on a 80386.
>
>So watch the video; maybe you'll rediscover one or two games you loved
>(or at least played) and haven't given a thought to in years.
>
I'm surprised LucasArts "Outlaws" wasn't in there. That game got very
little coverage back in the day. "Redneck Rampage" maybe too.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>>Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
<snip not my comment>
>>>I thought you had pokemon disease - you have to collect em all?
>
>Yes, but it does more for my self-esteem if I describe my condition as
>"an avid interest in the history and development of DOS games" rather
>than as a Pokemon-class hoarder. ;-)

Fair enough.

Speaking of the pokemon, have you seen Detective Pikachu?
(With Ryan Reynolds as the voice of Pikachu.)

Surprisingly entertaining and I am utterly not a fan of pokemon.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
>...
>> Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
>> the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
>> and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
>> associated with snagging those files.
>
>Well, CDs & Internet existed back then too! ;)

Early 90s though when DOOM came out, it mostly was not available to the
average person at home - not at affordable rates anyway.

So either you had access at Uni or work or you had no access.

Unless you were rich.

I don't think affordable internet came to town for the average person
until around 2000 here.

Just checked, original setup cd for my first internet access (Dialup) is
labeled 2000, but copyrighted 1999.

Roommate some years earlier had a shell account back in 95 I think, but
he paid a hellacious amount for it, like $200 a month for dialup access.

Regular access in 2000 was more like $20 I think.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
> spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

> >Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> >...
> >> Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
> >> the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
> >> and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
> >> associated with snagging those files.
> >
> >Well, CDs & Internet existed back then too! ;)

> Early 90s though when DOOM came out, it mostly was not available to the
> average person at home - not at affordable rates anyway.

> So either you had access at Uni or work or you had no access.

> Unless you were rich.

> I don't think affordable internet came to town for the average person
> until around 2000 here.

Well, I had dial-up accounts with colleges, Netcom, and then EarthLink. ;P

> Just checked, original setup cd for my first internet access (Dialup) is
> labeled 2000, but copyrighted 1999.

> Roommate some years earlier had a shell account back in 95 I think, but
> he paid a hellacious amount for it, like $200 a month for dialup access.

$200?! Seriously?

> Regular access in 2000 was more like $20 I think.

That sounds about right. I think college was $10 per month and then
Netcom and Earthlink were like $20.
--
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." --Acts 1:8. Quiet warm weekend with a lot of Z, biological bugs, watching, & eyePhone gaming. Lakers & Celtics suck again. :P
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Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 May 2023 10:07:30 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
> Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> >
> >When it comes to classic FPS games, everybody knows "Doom",
> >"Wolfenstein 3D", "Quake", and "Duke Nukem 3D". Some may remember less
> >well-known games such as "Strife", "System Shock", "Blood", or
> >"Descent". But the first-person shooter genre was rife with titles,
> >and for all the greats of that era, there were a dozen more that have
> >been forgotten in the intervening decades.
> >
> >So, finding this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lGlyxFLuDU the
> >other day was a fun reminder of some of these lost examples of early
> >FPS games*. Me - being the DOS-era games afficiando that I am - I was
> >already familiar with the vast majority of the games showcased, but
> >even I discovered a few new ones (I could also point out a few the
> >video missed, such as "Nam", "Tunnel B1", and "Deus" ;-)
> >
> >Of course, some of these games have been forgotten because they were -
> >at best - unoriginal and derivative. For most, though, that would be
> >an aspirational goal; there are a lot of stinkers in the list. There
> >are a few that I remember, if not fondly, then with a certain respect.
> >"ZPC", for instance, was one of the first FPS games to use the
> >cel-shaded art-style, "Rebel Moon" for its colored-lighting, and
> >"Chasm: The Rift" as a "Quake" for those still on a 80386.
> >
> >So watch the video; maybe you'll rediscover one or two games you loved
> >(or at least played) and haven't given a thought to in years.
> >
> I'm surprised LucasArts "Outlaws" wasn't in there. That game got very
> little coverage back in the day. "Redneck Rampage" maybe too.

Outlaws game was fun especially its multiplayer. Its introduction made
me sad. :~( Redeck Rampage, Blood, etc. were OK. You guys forgot Heretic, Hexen, Strife, etc. ;)
--
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." --Acts 1:8. Quiet warm weekend with a lot of Z, biological bugs, watching, & eyePhone gaming. Lakers & Celtics suck again. :P
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ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
>> ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
>> spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>> >Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
>> >...
>> >> Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
>> >> the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
>> >> and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
>> >> associated with snagging those files.
>> >
>> >Well, CDs & Internet existed back then too! ;)
>
>> Early 90s though when DOOM came out, it mostly was not available to the
>> average person at home - not at affordable rates anyway.
>
>> So either you had access at Uni or work or you had no access.
>
>> Unless you were rich.
>
>> I don't think affordable internet came to town for the average person
>> until around 2000 here.
>
>Well, I had dial-up accounts with colleges, Netcom, and then EarthLink. ;P
>
>
>> Just checked, original setup cd for my first internet access (Dialup) is
>> labeled 2000, but copyrighted 1999.
>
>> Roommate some years earlier had a shell account back in 95 I think, but
>> he paid a hellacious amount for it, like $200 a month for dialup access.
>
>$200?! Seriously?

For a shell account, not basic dialup.
Might have been less than that but it was still quite a lot.

You got to log into their UNIX server and do all the things that lets
you do (like FAST downloading at speeds higher than dialup could do,
then dialup speed download to the home computer later.)

Don't remember now all the shit he could do with it, but he felt it was
worth it.

>> Regular access in 2000 was more like $20 I think.
>
>That sounds about right. I think college was $10 per month and then
>Netcom and Earthlink were like $20.

We got free access in college (literally in the college, not home
access,) but it was quite limited - pre WWW, looking stuff up with
Archie or Veronica, FTPing files back to your account on the SUN
Microsystems min-mainframe, then going into the PC lab to cross link
into your UNIX account so you could get those files onto a floppy to
take home to, among other things, modify DOOM.

The internet was very much not user friendly in the pre-web days.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

On Tue, 23 May 2023 08:37:00 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
>ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
>spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
>>> ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
>>> spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>> >Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

>>> >...
>>> >> Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
>>> >> the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
>>> >> and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
>>> >> associated with snagging those files.

>>> >Well, CDs & Internet existed back then too! ;)

>>> Early 90s though when DOOM came out, it mostly was not available to the
>>> average person at home - not at affordable rates anyway.
>>> So either you had access at Uni or work or you had no access.
>>> Unless you were rich.
>>> I don't think affordable internet came to town for the average person
>>> until around 2000 here.

>>Well, I had dial-up accounts with colleges, Netcom, and then EarthLink. ;P

>>> Just checked, original setup cd for my first internet access (Dialup) is
>>> labeled 2000, but copyrighted 1999.
>>> Roommate some years earlier had a shell account back in 95 I think, but
>>> he paid a hellacious amount for it, like $200 a month for dialup access.

>>$200?! Seriously?

>For a shell account, not basic dialup.
>Might have been less than that but it was still quite a lot.

>You got to log into their UNIX server and do all the things that lets
>you do (like FAST downloading at speeds higher than dialup could do,
>then dialup speed download to the home computer later.)

>Don't remember now all the shit he could do with it, but he felt it was
>worth it.

>>> Regular access in 2000 was more like $20 I think.

>>That sounds about right. I think college was $10 per month and then
>>Netcom and Earthlink were like $20.

>We got free access in college (literally in the college, not home
>access,) but it was quite limited - pre WWW, looking stuff up with
>Archie or Veronica, FTPing files back to your account on the SUN
>Microsystems min-mainframe, then going into the PC lab to cross link
>into your UNIX account so you could get those files onto a floppy to
>take home to, among other things, modify DOOM.
>The internet was very much not user friendly in the pre-web days.

Ah, the glory days of early Internet.

I had access to the "Internet" from... oh, I don't know. Late 80s,
early 90s. Its hard for me to be more specific because it wasn't
really called the Internet then. It just happened that the servers I
had access to connected to other servers across some backbone that I
rarely used. I wasn't frequently logging onto some FTP server on the
other side of the world, at least not directly. Even my emails were
almost entirely local. But technically, it was there, and I was
starting my slow exploration of this new interconnected world with
forays into FIDONet (or was it BITNet? I honestly can't remember)...
and later proper Usenet.

But by the early 90s I was definitely shasaying onto foreign servers;
you couldn't get Doom without jumping onto ftp.wustl.edu, and most
major software publishers had similar ftp archives for patches and
demos. Until about '96, I accessed via a variety of methods - leeching
off company or university networks (semi-authorized by colleagues
working there, if not the actual people in charge), or via local
Bulletin Boards, or even - quite grudgingly - via CompuServ and
Prodigy. But around that time I finally ponied up for a "direct"
connection via a local dial-up provider. I think I paid the equivalent
of $20-30USD for the privilege. But only the earliest ISPs offered
shell access...

I stuck with dial-up for a long time; I only made the switch-over to
DSL in 2006(!), and even then it was less about the speed benefit and
more because I liked how broadband was "always on", negating the need
to ring-up the ISP before each Internet adventure (also, as my herd of
computers was growing, connecting through a single router instead of a
dial-up server was a lot simpler). I was lucky though; almost from the
start, I always had access to the 'net via 56.6kbps connections. As
slow as dial-up was, it was never quite as slow for me as it was for
the majority of users.

(Another reason I stuck around on dial-up so long? Usenet, of course.
It was only after my dial-up provider killed its included NNTP service
that I really started looking at alternatives. ;-)

On Mon, 22 May 2023 17:57:54 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 May 2023 10:07:30 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,

>> I'm surprised LucasArts "Outlaws" wasn't in there. That game got very
>> little coverage back in the day. "Redneck Rampage" maybe too.
>
>Outlaws game was fun especially its multiplayer. Its introduction made
>me sad. :~( Redeck Rampage, Blood, etc. were OK. You guys forgot Heretic, Hexen, Strife, etc. ;)

The original list was "forgotten FPS" games, and - while the ones you
mentioned may not make the "top-10 FPS games list", they've retained a
bit of a following over the years. "Quake" and "DukeNukem3D" may be
the names everyone remembers first, but "Descent", "Dark Forces",
"Blood", and the rest were well-received runner-ups.

Arguably, some of the games in the original list ("Blake Stone",
"Shadowcaster", "Marathon", etc.) don't deserve to be there... but
many of them do. After all, when even /I/ have never heard of your
game, you know it's well-and-truly been forgotten ;-P

Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
> spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

> >Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> >> ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
> >> spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> >
> >> >Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> >> >...
> >> >> Had not heard of any of these, but then that was the BBS life back then,
> >> >> the BBS had only what the Sysop had snagged (or someone else uploaded,)
> >> >> and that was _very_ much dependant on where you were and the costs
> >> >> associated with snagging those files.
> >> >
> >> >Well, CDs & Internet existed back then too! ;)
> >
> >> Early 90s though when DOOM came out, it mostly was not available to the
> >> average person at home - not at affordable rates anyway.
> >
> >> So either you had access at Uni or work or you had no access.
> >
> >> Unless you were rich.
> >
> >> I don't think affordable internet came to town for the average person
> >> until around 2000 here.
> >
> >Well, I had dial-up accounts with colleges, Netcom, and then EarthLink. ;P
> >
> >
> >> Just checked, original setup cd for my first internet access (Dialup) is
> >> labeled 2000, but copyrighted 1999.
> >
> >> Roommate some years earlier had a shell account back in 95 I think, but
> >> he paid a hellacious amount for it, like $200 a month for dialup access.
> >
> >$200?! Seriously?

> For a shell account, not basic dialup.
> Might have been less than that but it was still quite a lot.

> You got to log into their UNIX server and do all the things that lets
> you do (like FAST downloading at speeds higher than dialup could do,
> then dialup speed download to the home computer later.)

> Don't remember now all the shit he could do with it, but he felt it was
> worth it.

> >> Regular access in 2000 was more like $20 I think.
> >
> >That sounds about right. I think college was $10 per month and then
> >Netcom and Earthlink were like $20.

> We got free access in college (literally in the college, not home
> access,) but it was quite limited - pre WWW, looking stuff up with
> Archie or Veronica, FTPing files back to your account on the SUN
> Microsystems min-mainframe, then going into the PC lab to cross link
> into your UNIX account so you could get those files onto a floppy to
> take home to, among other things, modify DOOM.

> The internet was very much not user friendly in the pre-web days.

Shell, FTP, sz, rz, etc. I still use them like right now. ;) Also, TIA &
SLiRP for SLIP & PPP for web access via shell accounts. I was the first
to use in my university back then with Windows 3.1's Trumpet Winsock
software addon. Everyone wanted it. ;)

--
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." --Acts 1:8. Slammy Mon. since after 3:14:15... AM PDT. Thanks God 4 no No. CA trip & dang Lakers again.
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ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> We got free access in college (literally in the college, not home
>> access,) but it was quite limited - pre WWW, looking stuff up with
>> Archie or Veronica, FTPing files back to your account on the SUN
>> Microsystems min-mainframe, then going into the PC lab to cross link
>> into your UNIX account so you could get those files onto a floppy to
>> take home to, among other things, modify DOOM.
>
>> The internet was very much not user friendly in the pre-web days.
>
>Shell, FTP, sz, rz, etc. I still use them like right now. ;) Also, TIA &
>SLiRP for SLIP & PPP for web access via shell accounts. I was the first
>to use in my university back then with Windows 3.1's Trumpet Winsock
>software addon. Everyone wanted it. ;)

Pretty sure nobody in the universe wanted Trumpet Winsock, it was just
what we were stuck with.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) looked up from reading the entrails of the porn
> spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> >Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> >> We got free access in college (literally in the college, not home
> >> access,) but it was quite limited - pre WWW, looking stuff up with
> >> Archie or Veronica, FTPing files back to your account on the SUN
> >> Microsystems min-mainframe, then going into the PC lab to cross link
> >> into your UNIX account so you could get those files onto a floppy to
> >> take home to, among other things, modify DOOM.
> >
> >> The internet was very much not user friendly in the pre-web days.
> >
> >Shell, FTP, sz, rz, etc. I still use them like right now. ;) Also, TIA &
> >SLiRP for SLIP & PPP for web access via shell accounts. I was the first
> >to use in my university back then with Windows 3.1's Trumpet Winsock
> >software addon. Everyone wanted it. ;)

> Pretty sure nobody in the universe wanted Trumpet Winsock, it was just
> what we were stuck with.

Yep, until Windows added their own Winsocks. Apple too in its macOS.
--
"Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ." --Acts 28:31. Slammy weeky & summer break already? Thanks God 4 no No. CA trip. Dang NBA (Lakers, Celtics, & Heat), colony, issues, humans, bodies, weather, break, $, Max, etc.
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Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> writes:

> Roommate some years earlier had a shell account back in 95 I think, but
> he paid a hellacious amount for it, like $200 a month for dialup access.

Damn. I remember I got my first paid for dialup back in 1995. The
monthly cost was just 35 Finnish Marks per month back then so that would
something like $5... I think there was an additional charge by
connection time but it was really cheap.

But that was with an early ISP that was started by some tech students in
my university and they knew full well the school's modem pool was
getting very overloaded and also what students could afford. I think the
school had maybe 10 or 20 modems and a few thousand students so
definitely not enough.

Anyways, got my first non-university email address from them too and I'm
only now starting to get rid of it since it actually costs money and
they're hiking the price and I get my shell/email/web hosting stuff
elsewhere.

On 23/05/2023 17:09, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> I had access to the "Internet" from... oh, I don't know. Late 80s,
> early 90s. Its hard for me to be more specific because it wasn't
> really called the Internet then. It just happened that the servers I
> had access to connected to other servers across some backbone that I
> rarely used. I wasn't frequently logging onto some FTP server on the
> other side of the world, at least not directly. Even my emails were
> almost entirely local. But technically, it was there, and I was
> starting my slow exploration of this new interconnected world with
> forays into FIDONet (or was it BITNet? I honestly can't remember)...
> and later proper Usenet.

My first experience was maybe 83 or 84 with something called Prestel
which was basically a large database of information you could access and
also had chat type features all displayed in much the same way as
Teletext. I actually won the modem (for the Speccky 48k) in a
competition and it was only many years later that I realised that they
basically gave away a lot of these things to try and push the service.

The next one wasn't until I was at university in the early 90's with
access to something called JANET which was far more internet like and
designed for academic institutions to exchange information.

Actual internet access the late 90's with I think AOL. You pretty much
couldn't buy a magazine with having one of their disks on the cover.

>>>>> On 2023-05-21, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

Can't say I've had access to that many games back in the
day, yet...

[...]

> "Blake Stone" actually added a number of features to the Wolf3D game
> (it's been a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall you could
> revisit levels, ammo lying around would explode if you shot it, it had
> an inventory system, and NPCs you could interact with), which were
> quite impressive additions.

> Unfortunately, the core gameplay - shooting bad guys in overly
> mazelike levels whilst collecting loot to earn the high score -
> hadn't changed a bit, which made "Blake Stone" feel more like an
> overly ambitious Wolf3D mod than a game that stood on its own merits.

> Oh, and that whole "Doom" thing might have had a bit of an impact too.
> ;-)

Have to concur. I have it in my GOG collection (among many
other DOS games), but so far haven't found much desire to
actually play it.

As to others...

OP> Lethal Tender

I've read about this game sometime in the 1990s, but don't
think I've ever as much as seen it.

OP> CyClones

Played the shareware version from http://classicdosgames.com/
for a bit at some point; don't recall much, TBH.

OP> Witchaven

This one I remember finding pretty enjoyable. Not sure it
quite fits the 'first person /shooter/' label (all weapons
there but one are close range... though there're also spells,
IIRC?), and perhaps the novelty of that offsets the somewhat
subpar (?) graphics, and the gameplay that would've been
entirely ordinary otherwise.

I think we've completed it in cooperative mode c. 1998.
Also played deathmatch, but I don't recall it to be any
better than that of the similarly "2.5D" Doom and Heretic.
(Add to that that the map editors for the latter, as well
as Duke Nukem 3D, were readily available at that point...)

--
FSF associate member #7257 np. Children of Lir by Sora

On Wed, 24 May 2023 18:35:48 -0000 (UTC), Ivan Shmakov
<ivan@siamics.netNOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-05-21, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> OP> Witchaven

> This one I remember finding pretty enjoyable. Not sure it
> quite fits the 'first person /shooter/' label (all weapons
> there but one are close range... though there're also spells,
> IIRC?), and perhaps the novelty of that offsets the somewhat
> subpar (?) graphics, and the gameplay that would've been
> entirely ordinary otherwise.

> I think we've completed it in cooperative mode c. 1998.
> Also played deathmatch, but I don't recall it to be any
> better than that of the similarly "2.5D" Doom and Heretic.
> (Add to that that the map editors for the latter, as well
> as Duke Nukem 3D, were readily available at that point...)

"Witchaven" was always a guilty sin of mine. I'll be frank: it's not a
good game. It's uses an early version of the Build engine, it has
floaty movement, poor performance, overly mazelike levels, and
unbalanced combat. The story is ridiculous, the monsters
unimaginative, and the weapons/spells unexciting. The fact that it was
developed by Capstone is really all you need to know about the quality
of this game.

And yet...

Wandering through its tight, twisty halls - in SVGA, no less - with my
sword drawn in one hand and a torch spell bringing bringing a
flickering, uncertain light to the dungeon felt amazingly visceral.
More than even when playing my beloved "Ultima Underworld", I felt
like I was really there, ensconced in an actual realm of sword and
sorcery. "This," I said to myself, "is what it must really feel like
if I were a D&D character sneaking through a dungeon: the uncertainty
of the way forward, the claustrophobia of the narrow passage, the
distant moan of some monster. It was all my fantasies of Conan or the
Mines of Moria brought to life.

Then some actual gameplay occured and a lot of that immersion was
ruined by the lackluster design because, you know, Capstone... but it
returned once I got back to wandering. Few games have matched that
feeling since, and even now - when I go back to Witchaven's haunted
halls, I can still feel the faintest reminders of why I persevered
with this game, despite all its numerous faults.

"Witchaven" is not a game I could ever recommend to anybody else
because it /is/ so flawed, and those few strengths it had are now so
commonplace as to be expected. But for me, "Witchaven" came out at
just the right time that its production-values were able to cast a
spell whose enchantment still lingers thirty years on.

Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
> Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> writes:

> > Roommate some years earlier had a shell account back in 95 I think, but
> > he paid a hellacious amount for it, like $200 a month for dialup access.

> Damn. I remember I got my first paid for dialup back in 1995. The
> monthly cost was just 35 Finnish Marks per month back then so that would
> something like $5... I think there was an additional charge by
> connection time but it was really cheap.

> But that was with an early ISP that was started by some tech students in
> my university and they knew full well the school's modem pool was
> getting very overloaded and also what students could afford. I think the
> school had maybe 10 or 20 modems and a few thousand students so
> definitely not enough.

<My college university started with only 3 dial-up POP #s. :( I was
always hogging one. Hahaha. And then, seven, and then more! Dorms didn't
have network connections until after I graduated. :(

> Anyways, got my first non-university email address from them too and I'm
> only now starting to get rid of it since it actually costs money and
> they're hiking the price and I get my shell/email/web hosting stuff
> elsewhere.

Yeah, my university dumped alumnus even if we paid!
--
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