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computers / news.software.nntp / Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

SubjectAuthor
* How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
`* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJohn Levine
 `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
  `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
   `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
    `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
     `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
      `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
       +- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
       `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
        +* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idyamo'
        |+* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
        ||`- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
        |+* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
        ||+* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idyamo'
        |||`- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
        ||`* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
        || `- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
        |`- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
        +- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
        `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
         `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
          +* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
          |+- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idLaLibreParole
          |+- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idMarc SCHAEFER
          |+* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
          ||+* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idThomas Hochstein
          |||`- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
          ||`* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
          || `- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
          |`* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
          | +- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
          | `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
          |  `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
          |   `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
          |    `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
          |     `- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
          `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idAdam H. Kerman
           `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
            +* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idAdam H. Kerman
            |`- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
            `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
             `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
              +* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
              |`- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idOlivier Miakinen
              `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck
               +- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idRuss Allbery
               `* Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idJulien ÉLIE
                `- Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-idFranck

Pages:12
Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<87zgeqfy8k.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=1212&group=news.software.nntp#1212

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 22:36:43 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87zgeqfy8k.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
<87y1ufxary.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <tgc30j$7s0o$4@news.trigofacile.com>
<87sfkmxcsj.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <tgje47$2eubv$4@dont-email.me>
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logging-data="17068"; mail-complaints-to="news@eyrie.org"
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 by: Russ Allbery - Fri, 23 Sep 2022 05:36 UTC

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:

> Let's assume the issue applies to hosts on different News sites. Either
> the News administrator or user decides there's a legitimate privacy
> reason that it's not desireable to use the working domain of the News
> server or the user's own host. With better random number generators
> available these days, is it possible to ensure uniqueness considering
> the left part of the Message-ID only if multiple News sites or users
> start to use domains in the right half that they don't uniquely control
> but are harmless to use, like literally example.com?

Yes, assuming you have a good random number generator, any random number
generator suitable for a cryptographic key will probably be good enough
for this. The constraints are slightly different, but avoiding collisions
across a fairly large space ends up looking somewhat similar to what you
need to get protection against brute-force attacks.

The general rule of thumb is that 128 bits is probably good enough for
anything (although I will say that hashes these days have mostly gone to
256 bits). With base64 encoding, that's fairly compact:

4k2LUqc6SWY6vcGiWefcag@example.com

Protection against collision is basically protection against a birthday
attack, and thus grows with the square root of the message ID space. If I
remember the math correctly, when there are 2^128 message IDs, you'll have
a 50% chance of a collision in 2^64 message IDs, which is substantially
larger than the number of Usenet messages there are ever likely to be. In
practice, this should get you to much less than 50% chance, basically low
enough that you don't have to care.

Even if you think that might not be enough somehow, if you add a timestamp
before the randomness, and you assume mostly non-malicious message ID
generators, you reduce the chances of a collision to effectively nothing
fairly easily, and now you don't care about how long Usenet will survive
with unlimited retention because every second you move into a new message
ID space. That gives you a message ID that looks something like:

EmQM4tZ4$4k2LUqc6SWY6vcGiWefcag@example.com

That takes the date as a number (20220922222200) and represents it in 6
bytes, which is good enough for the next 10,000 years. With a timestamp,
I'm pretty sure you could cut that down to 64 bits and still be pretty
comfortable, which gives you something like:

EmQM4tZ4$uYRo9tEy/80@example.com

which is quite compact.

> As long as you are thinking about this, can you give some consideration
> to appending a check digit to the left part?

> A certain user I shall not name (but many of you know exactly whom I am
> talking about) has been forging other users, copying their Injection
> headers for preloading into the proto forged article which is injected
> through the News site that he uses. He typically adds crossposted
> newsgroups that the actual author did not crosspost to.

> The original Message-ID is preloaded as well, but he gets around
> clashing Message-IDs by prepending a character.

> A check digit might prevent that. Of course, he'll find all new ways to
> commit abuse.

I'm not sure I understand how a check digit helps. The check digit won't
match and... then what? You need some way to filter out the forged
messages, but most people aren't going to be using some new message ID
generation algorithm. Also, since the whole message is forged, that
person can just make up a new message ID at the same domain with a good
check digit.

If the goal is for people to be able to opt in to forgery protection, some
sort of public key signature is a more obvious choice.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgjl42$2fikn$2@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 06:52:50 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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Message-ID: <tgjl42$2fikn$2@dont-email.me>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <87sfkmxcsj.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <tgje47$2eubv$4@dont-email.me> <87zgeqfy8k.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
Injection-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 06:52:50 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader01.eternal-september.org; posting-host="65c472344123a7c0402d00b515a92708";
logging-data="2607767"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19m2Gq0MflN5jMVKBpVomKUtoVT0Iqy9r8="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:IoE0/ac/ngH9QkmkgrYWZZDyY80=
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
 by: Adam H. Kerman - Fri, 23 Sep 2022 06:52 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:

>>Let's assume the issue applies to hosts on different News sites. Either
>>the News administrator or user decides there's a legitimate privacy
>>reason that it's not desireable to use the working domain of the News
>>server or the user's own host. With better random number generators
>>available these days, is it possible to ensure uniqueness considering
>>the left part of the Message-ID only if multiple News sites or users
>>start to use domains in the right half that they don't uniquely control
>>but are harmless to use, like literally example.com?

>Yes, assuming you have a good random number generator, any random number
>generator suitable for a cryptographic key will probably be good enough
>for this. The constraints are slightly different, but avoiding collisions
>across a fairly large space ends up looking somewhat similar to what you
>need to get protection against brute-force attacks. . . .

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I appreciate it.

>>As long as you are thinking about this, can you give some consideration
>>to appending a check digit to the left part?

>>A certain user I shall not name (but many of you know exactly whom I am
>>talking about) has been forging other users, copying their Injection
>>headers for preloading into the proto forged article which is injected
>>through the News site that he uses. He typically adds crossposted
>>newsgroups that the actual author did not crosspost to.

>>The original Message-ID is preloaded as well, but he gets around
>>clashing Message-IDs by prepending a character.

>>A check digit might prevent that. Of course, he'll find all new ways to
>>commit abuse.

>I'm not sure I understand how a check digit helps. The check digit won't
>match and... then what? You need some way to filter out the forged
>messages, but most people aren't going to be using some new message ID
>generation algorithm. Also, since the whole message is forged, that
>person can just make up a new message ID at the same domain with a good
>check digit.

Fair enough. Suggestion withdrawn

>If the goal is for people to be able to opt in to forgery protection, some
>sort of public key signature is a more obvious choice.

Same issue. No reader checks.

He was preserving the original article's text but adding the crosspost.

The problem is that the News site was allowing the forged articles to be
injected despite the fact of the preloaded Injection headers belongng to
another News site, which was quite nonstandard indeed.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<87czbmf7yk.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=1214&group=news.software.nntp#1214

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 08:04:19 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87czbmf7yk.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
<87sfkmxcsj.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <tgje47$2eubv$4@dont-email.me>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
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logging-data="16559"; mail-complaints-to="news@eyrie.org"
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 by: Russ Allbery - Fri, 23 Sep 2022 15:04 UTC

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
> Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:

>> If the goal is for people to be able to opt in to forgery protection,
>> some sort of public key signature is a more obvious choice.

> Same issue. No reader checks.

Yeah, it's a real problem. We need something that's reasonable for
servers to implement, at least in filters, but the problem with that is
that somehow you need to bootstrap an identity management system since
otherwise forgery is essentially undefined.

This is basicallly "why Usenet stopped being popular" in a nutshell. It's
not the only reason, but lots of things related to identity are, I think,
the top reasons.

*If* you can figure out what public keys to check against, public key
signatures at least do work, technically. They can't be forged and
provide the information you want. But that's a big if.

> The problem is that the News site was allowing the forged articles to be
> injected despite the fact of the preloaded Injection headers belongng to
> another News site, which was quite nonstandard indeed.

Indeed, it violates a MUST in RFC 5537 section 3.5:

2. It MUST reject any proto-article that does not have the proper
mandatory header fields for a proto-article, that has Injection-
Info or Xref header fields, that has a Path header field
containing the "POSTED" <diag-keyword>, or that is not
syntactically valid as defined by [RFC5536].

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<878rmaf75b.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 08:21:52 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <878rmaf75b.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
<argle-bargle@argle.bargle.xyz>
<63279bd2$0$22055$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
<87h7148aq4.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
<6328a840$0$2976$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
<tgaje6$6pa5$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<6328dcc9$0$5132$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
<tganq1$6pa5$2@news.trigofacile.com> <87y1ufxary.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Fri, 23 Sep 2022 15:21 UTC

Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

> Do you think we should improve the generation of Message-IDs? They're
> currently based on the date, PID and a counter incrementing at each
> call. A quick improvement could be to also add for instance 6 bytes
> from RAND_bytes() if OpenSSL support is available (which is most often
> the case I believe).

Yeah, something like that is a good idea, I think.

INN's current algorithm is sort of interesting in that under most
circumstances it will guarantee (as opposed to make probabilistically
likely) unique message IDs, but only if the FQDN is unique. And it does
that at the cost of using a global static variable, which is usually
considered poor code, although INN uses static variables all over the
place so it doesn't really matter.

In theory, tossing the counter and the PID and replacing both with eight
random bytes is better, since it doesn't rely as heavily on the uniqueness
of the right-hand side. In practice, it feels weird because we're giving
up designed uniqueness for probability! But it's probably still the right
thing to do.

I think this is the only use of the Radix32() function in INN as well,
which doesn't assume that message IDs are case-sensitive. I see that we
were worried about case-insensitive matching on message IDs when we wrote
5536. That's unfortunate, since if you assume case-sensitivity, like I
did in my other message, you could make the message ID a lot shorter.

> Yes, servername looks like an appropriate name. It will be a useful
> improvement for the next major release. I propose to also have a
> servername parameter in inn.conf as inews generates Message-IDs (and
> currently uses the value of the domain parameter in inn.conf). And the
> value of servername can be overriden in readers.conf.

Ah, yes, I forgot about inews.

One interesting wrinkle here: if serverhost and pathhost are set to
different things, it's unclear what should go into Injection-Info. It
looks like we never said. The ABNF grammar says it's a path-identity,
which sort of implies it should be pathhost, but the grammar of course is
identical for both elements.

I suspect the right way to think of it is that serverhost is the identity
of nnrpd and pathhost is the identity of innd, so it should be serverhost.
(This is probably most interesting in the unusual configuration where you
have a farm of nnrpd servers on different hosts all feeding into a central
innd.)

> The default value of servername in inn.conf (optional parameter) would
> then be pathhost (mandatory to set in inn.conf).

Yup, that sounds right. 99% of the time you're probably going to want to
set them to the same thing.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgl9er$3rfvv$4@news.trigofacile.com>

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 23:46:03 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <tgl9er$3rfvv$4@news.trigofacile.com>
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Injection-Info: news.trigofacile.com; posting-account="julien"; posting-host="176-143-2-105.abo.bbox.fr:176.143.2.105";
logging-data="4046847"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.3.0
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sha1:Iyz7SyQJVpq4REDJI2+HQhJrQVA= sha256:KobJn/2irrQfOZab1L3OwY5hwAdQbuklwt5i69MuLw4=
In-Reply-To: <632cc993$0$2980$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 23 Sep 2022 21:46 UTC

Bonsoir LaLibreParole,

>> If "virtualhost" is not present it only modify the path in injection info.
>> For example:
>> With virtualhost: "injection-Info: machinename.readersconfDomain"
>> Without virtualhost: "injection-Info: machinename.InnConfDomain"
>>
>> it's a pity that we can't delete the name of the machine at this place
>
> This day, i update ubuntu and inn2 to version 2.6.4-2.
> The name of the machine has disappeared from injection-info :-)

There was an improvement in INN 2.6.3 in the way INN gets the FQDN and
handles local hostnames not in DNS. It may be the reason of the change
you see when upgrading from a version < 2.6.3 to 2.6.4.

At least, it solved your issue!

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Tu te conduis comme un jeune marcassin qui aurait encore des dents de
laie. » (Astérix)

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<nsn.20220924170459.1281@scatha.ancalagon.de>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=1217&group=news.software.nntp#1217

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From: thh...@thh.name (Thomas Hochstein)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 17:05:01 +0200
Message-ID: <nsn.20220924170459.1281@scatha.ancalagon.de>
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 by: Thomas Hochstein - Sat, 24 Sep 2022 15:05 UTC

Russ Allbery schrieb:

> INN's current algorithm is sort of interesting in that under most
> circumstances it will guarantee (as opposed to make probabilistically
> likely) unique message IDs, but only if the FQDN is unique.

I don't think that's a problem because the FQDN should be unique anyway.

> In theory, tossing the counter and the PID and replacing both with eight
> random bytes is better, since it doesn't rely as heavily on the uniqueness
> of the right-hand side. In practice, it feels weird because we're giving
> up designed uniqueness for probability! But it's probably still the right
> thing to do.

I'm not sure that's the right way to go. The probability of duplicates on
correctly configured systems would increase, and this is a poor tradeoff
for a decreased probability of duplicates on suboptimally configured
systems.

-thh
--
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<87bkr4kcox.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=1218&group=news.software.nntp#1218

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 08:35:26 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87bkr4kcox.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 24 Sep 2022 15:35 UTC

Thomas Hochstein <thh@thh.name> writes:
> Russ Allbery schrieb:

>> In theory, tossing the counter and the PID and replacing both with
>> eight random bytes is better, since it doesn't rely as heavily on the
>> uniqueness of the right-hand side. In practice, it feels weird because
>> we're giving up designed uniqueness for probability! But it's probably
>> still the right thing to do.

> I'm not sure that's the right way to go. The probability of duplicates
> on correctly configured systems would increase, and this is a poor
> tradeoff for a decreased probability of duplicates on suboptimally
> configured systems.

The math implies that the chance of duplicates should actually go down
because it's more likely that you'll have two systems with the same FQDN
through some error or reuse an nnrpd PID within a second or have some
other very low-probability event occur than that you'll have an accidental
collision within a second in eight random bytes.

But it's very not intuitive and I have a hard time making myself believe
that.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgnfr6$3llg$1@news.trigofacile.com>

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 19:47:18 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <tgnfr6$3llg$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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In-Reply-To: <878rmaf75b.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Sat, 24 Sep 2022 17:47 UTC

Hi Russ,

> In theory, tossing the counter and the PID and replacing both with eight
> random bytes is better, since it doesn't rely as heavily on the uniqueness
> of the right-hand side. In practice, it feels weird because we're giving
> up designed uniqueness for probability! But it's probably still the right
> thing to do.

Besides, on two different servers, OpenSSL will compute different seeds
at startup (or better say the chance that the seeds are identical is
negligible).

> I think this is the only use of the Radix32() function in INN as well,
> which doesn't assume that message IDs are case-sensitive.

Radix32() only generates lower-case chars in the left-hand side. I
don't understand the remark that it "doesn't assume that message IDs are
case-sensitive": is it because it could also have used upper-case
letters and therefore generating even smaller message IDs?

> I see that we
> were worried about case-insensitive matching on message IDs when we wrote
> 5536. That's unfortunate, since if you assume case-sensitivity, like I
> did in my other message, you could make the message ID a lot shorter.

Indeed, though RFC 5536 only worries about case-insensitive matching on
the right-hand side:

Some software will try to match the <id-right> of a <msg-id> in a
case-insensitive fashion; some will match it in a case-sensitive
fashion. Implementations MUST NOT generate a Message-ID where the
only difference from another Message-ID is the case of characters in
the <id-right> part.

>> Yes, servername looks like an appropriate name. It will be a useful
>> improvement for the next major release. I propose to also have a
>> servername parameter in inn.conf as inews generates Message-IDs (and
>> currently uses the value of the domain parameter in inn.conf). And the
>> value of servername can be overriden in readers.conf.
>
> Ah, yes, I forgot about inews.
>
> One interesting wrinkle here: if serverhost and pathhost are set to
> different things, it's unclear what should go into Injection-Info. It
> looks like we never said. The ABNF grammar says it's a path-identity,
> which sort of implies it should be pathhost, but the grammar of course is
> identical for both elements.
>
> I suspect the right way to think of it is that serverhost is the identity
> of nnrpd and pathhost is the identity of innd, so it should be serverhost.
> (This is probably most interesting in the unusual configuration where you
> have a farm of nnrpd servers on different hosts all feeding into a central
> innd.)

Yes, that's an wise view, and we can consider servername for the
identity of nnrpd and pathhost for the identity of innd.
Maybe your point is that the name of the parameter should be serverhost
instead of the previously proposed servername?

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Tu crois qu'ils auront du sanglier, dis ?
– Faut pas te faire d'idées ; plus les armées sont puissantes, plus la
nourriture est mauvaise. Ça maintient les guerriers de mauvaise
humeur.
– …
– Je ne pensais pas que l'armée romaine était aussi puissante ! »
(Astérix)

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<87zgeoirgc.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=1220&group=news.software.nntp#1220

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 10:59:31 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87zgeoirgc.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 24 Sep 2022 17:59 UTC

Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

> Hi Russ,

>> In theory, tossing the counter and the PID and replacing both with
>> eight random bytes is better, since it doesn't rely as heavily on the
>> uniqueness of the right-hand side. In practice, it feels weird because
>> we're giving up designed uniqueness for probability! But it's probably
>> still the right thing to do.

> Besides, on two different servers, OpenSSL will compute different seeds
> at startup (or better say the chance that the seeds are identical is
> negligible).

Yeah, hopefully it's using /dev/urandom or getrandom(2) on most hosts.

> Radix32() only generates lower-case chars in the left-hand side. I
> don't understand the remark that it "doesn't assume that message IDs are
> case-sensitive": is it because it could also have used upper-case
> letters and therefore generating even smaller message IDs?

Right, there's no reason to use a 32-character alphabet instead of a
64-character alphabet unless you're worried about case-insensitivity.
(You have to be a little careful of the extra characters needed by base64
since the default ones aren't always valid, but there's usually some
alternate selection that will work.)

> Indeed, though RFC 5536 only worries about case-insensitive matching on
> the right-hand side:

> Some software will try to match the <id-right> of a <msg-id> in a
> case-insensitive fashion; some will match it in a case-sensitive
> fashion. Implementations MUST NOT generate a Message-ID where the
> only difference from another Message-ID is the case of characters in
> the <id-right> part.

Oh! I misread that and thought it said the left-hand side. Yeah, that's
fine then; it should be possible to assume case-sensitive message IDs, in
which case if we switched to a 64-character alphabet for the encoding we
could put substantial randomness, keep the existing elements of the
message ID, and probably still make it shorter (or at least the same
length).

> Yes, that's an wise view, and we can consider servername for the identity
> of nnrpd and pathhost for the identity of innd.
> Maybe your point is that the name of the parameter should be serverhost
> instead of the previously proposed servername?

Whoops, no, that was just a mental error. I think servername is better;
host is a bit confusing here.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgrdor$ddp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 07:36:27 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <tgrdor$ddp$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
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 by: Franck - Mon, 26 Sep 2022 05:36 UTC

Hello Julien,

>> INN's mesage ID generation algorithm is not great and we
>> could indeed get duplicates if multiple hosts are using the same
>> right-hand side. >
> Do you think we should improve the generation of Message-IDs?
> They're currently based on the date, PID and a counter incrementing at
> each call.  A quick improvement could be to also add for instance 6
> bytes from RAND_bytes() if OpenSSL support is available (which is most
> often the case I believe).

Although Spitfire News Server does not support virtual hosts, it uses
this form of Message-Id:

<session.timestamp_arrival_gmt@fqdn>

The "Session" is a complex calculation based on information like "Date"
and "PID" but also on other information from the hardware (Processor AND
interface that accepts the client socket), which makes it unique to the
"machine/interface" pair.

The session is generated when a client connects and remains bound to its
socket for its lifetime.

If articles arrive from different sockets, the "session" makes a
difference. If articles arrive from the same socket, the "timestamp"
makes the difference.

The PID and hardware information does the rest of the work to make the
Message-ID (almost) unique in all cases.

Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgrfk4$vcq$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 08:08:04 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <tgrfk4$vcq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Franck - Mon, 26 Sep 2022 06:08 UTC

Hello,

> The session is generated when a client connects and remains bound to its > socket for its lifetime.
To be more precise, session is generated when a client connect (and
linked to the accepted socket) in a way (almost) like this :

session = DATE + PID + INFO_PROCESSOR +
INFO_INTERFACE_WHO_ACCEPT_CONNECTION + INFO_CLIENT

Message-ID = <session.timestamp_arrival_gmt@fqdn>

Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgt381$7h2k$1@news.trigofacile.com>

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 22:49:05 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <tgt381$7h2k$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
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In-Reply-To: <tgrdor$ddp$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Mon, 26 Sep 2022 20:49 UTC

Hi Franck,

> Although Spitfire News Server does not support virtual hosts, it uses
> this form of Message-Id:
>
> <session.timestamp_arrival_gmt@fqdn>
>
> The "Session" is a complex calculation based on information like "Date"
> and "PID" but also on other information from the hardware (Processor AND
> interface that accepts the client socket), which makes it unique to the
> "machine/interface" pair.

Are you sure that the information from the hardware will be different in
a virtual private server (VPS)? Couldn't all the virtual machines have
the same processor and interface name?

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Lots of people want to ride with you in the limo, but what you want is
someone who will take the bus with you when the limo breaks down. »
(Oprah Winfrey)

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgtvue$286$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 06:58:54 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <tgtvue$286$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Franck - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 04:58 UTC

Salut Julien,

> Are you sure that the information from the hardware will be different in
> a virtual private server (VPS)?  Couldn't all the virtual machines have
> the same processor and interface name?

The generation of the "session" name is not only based on the
"processor" and "interface" informations. There is a lot of other
information taken into account to generate, at a given time, this
"session" name.

The list was not exhaustive, so I will detail it a little bit more:

For the machine (Hardware) :

- Processor information.
- Network interface information (MAC address).

For the machine (Software) :

- Name of the Windows platform edition.
- Windows serial number.
- Date/time of Windows startup.

For the service:

- Start date/time.
- PID.
- IP address / FQDN.
- Spitfire News Server serial number.

For the client (Reader / Feed) :

- IP of Network interface accepting the connection.
- Date/time of connection.
- Remote IP address of the client.
- Remote port of the client.
- Client's reverse resolution name.
- Client account name (if any).

This is how I like to kill a fly with a bazooka, and it takes no time to
generate.

For all this to be identical at any given time, chance really did it right!

But since we don't play with chance, I took the precaution of writing:
"To make the Message-ID (almost) unique in all cases".

"Almost" was the precaution :-)

Have nice day,
Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<tgu3tc$1a9s$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 08:06:36 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Franck - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 06:06 UTC

Salut Julien,

Even if I am convinced that two articles sent on the same socket (one
after one) cannot have the same timestamp to the nearest hundredth of a
second, I have taken into account your remark (elsewhere) on the
timestamp placed after the "session" name.

Spitfire News Server now use this format :

<session.number-of-items-submitted-during-the-same-session@fqdn>

Btw, it's a good thing because it shorten the Message-ID :-)

Have nice day,
Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 09:13:20 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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In-Reply-To: <tgu3tc$1a9s$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 07:13 UTC

Salut Franck,

> Even if I am convinced that two articles sent on the same socket (one
> after one) cannot have the same timestamp to the nearest hundredth of a
> second, I have taken into account your remark (elsewhere) on the
> timestamp placed after the "session" name.

:-)
It is true that TAKETHIS can be pipelined contrary to POST, so the
chance to POST more than 100 articles in one second is very small,
contrary to a feed where we managed to exchange 140 articles in one
second with TAKETHIS.

A malicious poster may pipeline POST and achieve that rate, but it won't
do any harm; his posts will just be discarded because of duplicate
Message-IDs.

> Spitfire News Server now use this format :
>
> <session.number-of-items-submitted-during-the-same-session@fqdn>
>
> Btw, it's a good thing because it shorten the Message-ID :-)

That's a good change then :-)
<C63328ebc00293aaa.1@news.spitfire-nntp.fr>

Thanks for your detailed explanation of what is present in the session
number. Pretty complex with rare chances of collision.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Un poisson ! Mon règne pour un poisson ! » (Cétautomatix)

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2022 22:48:49 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Franck - Tue, 27 Sep 2022 20:48 UTC

Bonsoir julien,

> :-)
> It is true that TAKETHIS can be pipelined contrary to POST, so the
> chance to POST more than 100 articles in one second is very small,
> contrary to a feed where we managed to exchange 140 articles in one
> second with TAKETHIS.

I understand that you are making a comparison with TAKETHIS just to
refer to the speed of transmission of articles since, in this case,
there is no generation of Message-ID.
> A malicious poster may pipeline POST and achieve that rate, but it won't
> do any harm; his posts will just be discarded because of duplicate
> Message-IDs.

I think a malicious poster will be confronted with one of the
discussions we had about commands that cannot be pipelined, like POST.

In this case, my implementation adopts part 3.5 of RFC3977 :

If the specific description of a command says it "MUST NOT be
pipelined", that command MUST end any pipeline of commands. That is,
the client MUST NOT send any following command until it receives the
CRLF at the end of the response from the command. The server MAY
ignore any data received after the command and before the CRLF at the
end of the response is sent to the client.

My server does the check, and pipelining will be broken, so I think the
client will be disconnected at some point, because of a timeout or for
too many consecutive bad commands.

I would give it a try...

Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2022 05:24:40 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Franck - Sun, 9 Oct 2022 03:24 UTC

Hello Russ,

> That takes the date as a number (20220922222200) and represents it in 6
> bytes, which is good enough for the next 10,000 years. With a timestamp,
> I'm pretty sure you could cut that down to 64 bits and still be pretty
> comfortable, which gives you something like:
>
> EmQM4tZ4$uYRo9tEy/80@example.com

Quickly implemented in Spitfire News Server for testing purposes.

Message-ID: <EmQSD29Yka97hBQCPZo=@news.spitfire-nntp.fr>

The result is only slightly larger than my previous format but I give it
a chance :)

Have nice day.
Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2022 22:11:19 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sun, 9 Oct 2022 05:11 UTC

Franck <franck@email.invalid> writes:

> Hello Russ,

>> That takes the date as a number (20220922222200) and represents it in 6
>> bytes, which is good enough for the next 10,000 years. With a timestamp,
>> I'm pretty sure you could cut that down to 64 bits and still be pretty
>> comfortable, which gives you something like:
>> EmQM4tZ4$uYRo9tEy/80@example.com

> Quickly implemented in Spitfire News Server for testing purposes.

> Message-ID: <EmQSD29Yka97hBQCPZo=@news.spitfire-nntp.fr>

> The result is only slightly larger than my previous format but I give it a
> chance :)

Oh, since someone is actually using this, I should mention that I realized
after my post that this is a kind of silly encoding of the date and you
should just use seconds since epoch, which will carry the same information
and be a lot more compact.

Also, you can drop the = padding signs from the end of the base64 output.
The amount of padding required can be calculated from the length of the
string once you know it's base64-encoded, so it doesn't add any
information.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2022 12:04:52 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Franck - Sun, 9 Oct 2022 10:04 UTC

Hello Russ,

> Oh, since someone is actually using this, I should mention that I realized
> after my post that this is a kind of silly encoding of the date and you
> should just use seconds since epoch, which will carry the same information
> and be a lot more compact.
>
> Also, you can drop the = padding signs from the end of the base64 output.
> The amount of padding required can be calculated from the length of the
> string once you know it's base64-encoded, so it doesn't add any
> information.

Done.

Message ID : <Y0KVxHLrtq6oCVJ2@news.spitfire-nntp.fr>

Now, the result is slightly smaler than my previous format 😄

Have nice day,
Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 07:58:49 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Franck - Tue, 11 Oct 2022 05:58 UTC

Hi Russ,

> Oh, since someone is actually using this, I should mention that I realized
> after my post that this is a kind of silly encoding of the date and you
> should just use seconds since epoch, which will carry the same information
> and be a lot more compact.

At this time, when generating a Message-ID, there is no chance to get a
timestamp (at least) in the range of years 1970 to 2021, witch represent
about 1640905200 seconds.

Wouldn't it make sense to set the "0 Date" to 2022-01-01 so the
Message-ID will be more compact?

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<878rlmwf5r.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:31:12 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <878rlmwf5r.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
<87y1ufxary.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <tgc30j$7s0o$4@news.trigofacile.com>
<87sfkmxcsj.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <tgje47$2eubv$4@dont-email.me>
<87zgeqfy8k.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <thteto$1777$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:x4sjM9WUjGkRbPJZrO5mY222wss=
 by: Russ Allbery - Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:31 UTC

Franck <franck@email.invalid> writes:

> Hi Russ,

>> Oh, since someone is actually using this, I should mention that I realized
>> after my post that this is a kind of silly encoding of the date and you
>> should just use seconds since epoch, which will carry the same information
>> and be a lot more compact.

> At this time, when generating a Message-ID, there is no chance to get a
> timestamp (at least) in the range of years 1970 to 2021, witch represent
> about 1640905200 seconds.

> Wouldn't it make sense to set the "0 Date" to 2022-01-01 so the Message-ID
> will be more compact?

Oh, sure, you could definitely do that. I didn't think about it since the
message ID already seemed reasonably short, but that would make it even
shorter (and make more room for other information if one wants to add it).

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<ti6np6$14c53$1@news.trigofacile.com>

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:51:02 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <ti6np6$14c53$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <632790d3$0$22052$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
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<87sfkmxcsj.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <tgje47$2eubv$4@dont-email.me>
<87zgeqfy8k.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> <thteto$1777$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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logging-data="1192099"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
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In-Reply-To: <ti30mp$1i7a$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Wed, 12 Oct 2022 15:51 UTC

Salut Franck,

> At this time, when generating a Message-ID, there is no chance to get a
> timestamp (at least) in the range of years 1970 to 2021, witch represent
> about 1640905200 seconds.
>
> Wouldn't it make sense to set the "0 Date" to 2022-01-01 so the
> Message-ID will be more compact?

We could also save 1 byte more (in the resulting Base64 string) if
changing the timestamp every minute instead of every second. Dividing
the number of seconds by 2^6=64 (or shifting 6 bits to the right) would
do that, without really adding a noticeable risk of duplicate
Message-IDs I think.

> Message-ID: <Y0KVxHLrtq6oCVJ2@news.spitfire-nntp.fr>
16 bytes at the left-hand side of the Message-ID, and probably less with
your suggestion of changing the "0 Date".

FWIW, INN currently generates 13 bytes (ex:
<tgu7qh$8iq1$1@news.trigofacile.com>, without random number) and I see
that Gnus generates 14 bytes (ex: <87lepph98o.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>).

--
Julien ÉLIE

« A program should always respond to the user in the way that astonishes
him least. » (Plauger's Law of Least Astonishment)

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<ti89o0$1mqn$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: fra...@email.invalid (Franck)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:03:44 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <ti89o0$1mqn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Franck - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 06:03 UTC

Bonjour Julien,

> We could also save 1 byte more (in the resulting Base64 string) if
> changing the timestamp every minute instead of every second.  Dividing
> the number of seconds by 2^6=64 (or shifting 6 bits to the right) would
> do that, without really adding a noticeable risk of duplicate
> Message-IDs I think.

If timestamp is in minutes, with a "0 date" set to 2022-01-01, the
Base64 result looks like <QzlcrZx0k8PldQ@news.spitfire-nntp.fr>.

It's 14 bytes.

Franck

Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id

<ti8qad$25p1$1@cabale.usenet-fr.net>

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From: om+n...@miakinen.net (Olivier Miakinen)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: How to permit user to set the right part of message-id
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:46:37 +0200
Organization: There's no cabale
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User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
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In-Reply-To: <thu6c4$1l95$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Olivier Miakinen - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:46 UTC

Hello,

Le 09/10/2022 12:04, Franck a écrit :
>>
>> Also, you can drop the = padding signs from the end of the base64 output.
>> The amount of padding required can be calculated from the length of the
>> string once you know it's base64-encoded, so it doesn't add any
>> information.
>
> Done.
>
> Message ID : <Y0KVxHLrtq6oCVJ2@news.spitfire-nntp.fr>
>
> Now, the result is slightly smaler than my previous format 😄

For the cancel reports of miakibot, I use the standard timestamp (with 1970
as the "0-date"), but coded in a "base81" of my own. The 81 characters are :
_ATEXT = "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ" + \
"abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" + \
"0123456789" + \
"!#$%&'*+-/=?^_`{|}~"

Example :
Message-ID: <m4Pke.TCW.1@miakinen.net>

Where "m4Pke" is the base81 of the timestamp, "TCW" the base81 of the process
id, and "1" a simple disambiguation count if more than one messages are sent
by the same process in the same second.

--
Olivier Miakinen

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