<rant>

I'm going to tell you a deep, dark secret. Okay, it's not very deep or
dark, and not really a secret, but you probably didn't know (and, I
admit, didn't really care to know) the following either. But here it
is, regardless:

Until a month ago, I was still using Windows 7 as my primary gaming
machine and - indeed - my daily driver for most of my work. Oh, I had
access to Windows 10 - and other operating systems - for when software
(or situation) required, but most of the time when I sat down to work
or play? Yeah, Windows 7 was what I was using.

But I knew that my reliance on that outdated, 15-year old OS was one
with an obvious (some would say long-past) end-date, and my next PC
was going to have to use something else, and when the inevitable
upgrade came around, it came with Windows 11.

And I hate it.

Well, hate is perhaps too strong a word. But there's a lot about it
that I dislike. Some of the problems I've been able to work around,
but others remain consistent thorns in my side.

There's Microsoft's insistence on tying its OS to its online services.
Because I paid a premium, I could at least use the computer without
registering the PC with a Microsoft account (that's not an option if
you use the Home edition), but it's still annoyingly insistent at
times. I've done my best to disable most of the more egregious demands
- no more 'hints' (aka adverts) to use MS software the lock screen,
thank you very much), but God forbid I hit Win+C; Microsoft Teams will
pop up whether I want it or not (even after I uninstalled the damn
thing, it will helpfully reinstall the program... even if I've
followed Microsoft's own instructions and disabled that 'feature' with
a registry hack). And -even after too many of those MS apps that I've
uninstalled come back after Windows Update is done doing its thing.

Which leads to the major complaint I have with the OS; it's too
domineering. With Win11, even more than with Windows 10, it's not /my/
computer; it's Microsoft's. Features are added or removed at
Microsoft's whims, and decisions I've made are changed regardless of
my opinion to better fit with Microsoft's vision. Don't even get me
started on forced updates.

They've even fucked up gaming. Microsoft completely revamped how
'notifications' are handled (because that was a feature absolutely
needed on a desktop OS, right?), and Windows - and other apps - is
constantly stealing focus from the active program. Sometimes this is
inconsequential; even as I was writing this sentence, the desktop
wallpaper changed in the background, and the active app flicked in and
out of focus but it didn't really interrupt my workflow except for a
momentary visual aberration. But earlier today, as I was driving down
the road in Eurotruck Simulator, I was pulled out of the game for some
reminder, and - unguided by human hand - my truck ended up slamming
into a tree. (I had similar happenstance in 'Cyberpunk 2077'). You can
disable notifications, but it's an all-or-nothing thing. Notifications
were largely a solved problem prior to this; this reversion is
annoying for that reason alone.

Then there's the Start menu; the bane of the OS since Microsoft
decided to start fucking around with it again in Windows 8. Honestly,
I think it's the worst iteration, taking the worst parts of Metro and
trying to plaster over them with half-assed fixes. Sure, there are
third-party apps to revert the shell to something halfway useful but I
shouldn't HAVE to use something like that

(anyway, none of the third-party apps work that well with multiple
displays).

I've hacked together something halfway useful with a variety of
registry hacks and third-party fixes, but I've no confidence these
fixes will keep working six months down the line, and I've seen a
significant loss in capability even over Windows 10.

I'll grant you this much, Windows 11 is a fairly swift and stable OS,
but that's hardly remarkable; prior versions of Windows were no
slouches in this area, and if there's a five or ten percent speed
boost over Windows 10, it's not noticeable. And crashes? The number of
blue-screens I've seen since I installed XP - twenty years! - can
probably be counted on my two hands. It's a solved issue, and I'm not
crediting Windows 11 for any of it.

Of course, there are alternatives. Proton on Linux is remarkably
compatible, even if the OS does have a significant learning curve;
Linux was my OS of choice for 'secure' work (like checking the bank
accounts) while I was stuck in the Win7 doldrums. And Windows 10 -
flawed as it is - remains a more palatable vision. At least it doesn't
force you to combine buttons on the taskbar...

Windows 11? It's only on my PC because I know it's inevitable. But
it's nothing I'd recommend.

</rant>

On 6/18/2023 11:13 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
> <rant>
>
> I'm going to tell you a deep, dark secret. Okay, it's not very deep or
> dark, and not really a secret, but you probably didn't know (and, I
> admit, didn't really care to know) the following either. But here it
> is, regardless:
>
> Until a month ago, I was still using Windows 7 as my primary gaming
> machine and - indeed - my daily driver for most of my work. Oh, I had
> access to Windows 10 - and other operating systems - for when software
> (or situation) required, but most of the time when I sat down to work
> or play? Yeah, Windows 7 was what I was using.
>
> But I knew that my reliance on that outdated, 15-year old OS was one
> with an obvious (some would say long-past) end-date, and my next PC
> was going to have to use something else, and when the inevitable
> upgrade came around, it came with Windows 11.
>
> And I hate it.
>
> Well, hate is perhaps too strong a word. But there's a lot about it
> that I dislike. Some of the problems I've been able to work around,
> but others remain consistent thorns in my side.
>
> There's Microsoft's insistence on tying its OS to its online services.
> Because I paid a premium, I could at least use the computer without
> registering the PC with a Microsoft account (that's not an option if
> you use the Home edition), but it's still annoyingly insistent at
> times. I've done my best to disable most of the more egregious demands
> - no more 'hints' (aka adverts) to use MS software the lock screen,
> thank you very much), but God forbid I hit Win+C; Microsoft Teams will
> pop up whether I want it or not (even after I uninstalled the damn
> thing, it will helpfully reinstall the program... even if I've
> followed Microsoft's own instructions and disabled that 'feature' with
> a registry hack). And -even after too many of those MS apps that I've
> uninstalled come back after Windows Update is done doing its thing.
>
> Which leads to the major complaint I have with the OS; it's too
> domineering. With Win11, even more than with Windows 10, it's not /my/
> computer; it's Microsoft's. Features are added or removed at
> Microsoft's whims, and decisions I've made are changed regardless of
> my opinion to better fit with Microsoft's vision. Don't even get me
> started on forced updates.
>
> They've even fucked up gaming. Microsoft completely revamped how
> 'notifications' are handled (because that was a feature absolutely
> needed on a desktop OS, right?), and Windows - and other apps - is
> constantly stealing focus from the active program. Sometimes this is
> inconsequential; even as I was writing this sentence, the desktop
> wallpaper changed in the background, and the active app flicked in and
> out of focus but it didn't really interrupt my workflow except for a
> momentary visual aberration. But earlier today, as I was driving down
> the road in Eurotruck Simulator, I was pulled out of the game for some
> reminder, and - unguided by human hand - my truck ended up slamming
> into a tree. (I had similar happenstance in 'Cyberpunk 2077'). You can
> disable notifications, but it's an all-or-nothing thing. Notifications
> were largely a solved problem prior to this; this reversion is
> annoying for that reason alone.
>
> Then there's the Start menu; the bane of the OS since Microsoft
> decided to start fucking around with it again in Windows 8. Honestly,
> I think it's the worst iteration, taking the worst parts of Metro and
> trying to plaster over them with half-assed fixes. Sure, there are
> third-party apps to revert the shell to something halfway useful but I
> shouldn't HAVE to use something like that
>
> (anyway, none of the third-party apps work that well with multiple
> displays).
>
> I've hacked together something halfway useful with a variety of
> registry hacks and third-party fixes, but I've no confidence these
> fixes will keep working six months down the line, and I've seen a
> significant loss in capability even over Windows 10.
>
> I'll grant you this much, Windows 11 is a fairly swift and stable OS,
> but that's hardly remarkable; prior versions of Windows were no
> slouches in this area, and if there's a five or ten percent speed
> boost over Windows 10, it's not noticeable. And crashes? The number of
> blue-screens I've seen since I installed XP - twenty years! - can
> probably be counted on my two hands. It's a solved issue, and I'm not
> crediting Windows 11 for any of it.
>
> Of course, there are alternatives. Proton on Linux is remarkably
> compatible, even if the OS does have a significant learning curve;
> Linux was my OS of choice for 'secure' work (like checking the bank
> accounts) while I was stuck in the Win7 doldrums. And Windows 10 -
> flawed as it is - remains a more palatable vision. At least it doesn't
> force you to combine buttons on the taskbar...
>
> Windows 11? It's only on my PC because I know it's inevitable. But
> it's nothing I'd recommend.
>
> </rant>
>
Thank you for reinforcing my decision to do my best to never move to
Windows 11.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 12:00:36 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>Thank you for reinforcing my decision to do my best to never move to
>Windows 11.

I only update the OS when I have to or when I buy a new computer with
it preinstalled.

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 14:13:25 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Which leads to the major complaint I have with the OS; it's too
>domineering. With Win11, even more than with Windows 10, it's not /my/
>computer; it's Microsoft's. Features are added or removed at
>Microsoft's whims, and decisions I've made are changed regardless of
>my opinion to better fit with Microsoft's vision.

I believe this.

When I switched from Windows 7 to 10, I actually liked Microsoft's
tile system better then icons. That is what I use now to access
everything I need. I color code all of the tiles by program type. That
works for me.

But then in an update, Microsoft decided that all tiles should be this
translucent white color for some reason. There was no way to change it
back within the standard Windows options. There might be now, but at
the time, I had to follow the instructions on a youtube video which
had me go into the registry and tweak some settings to get my colors
back.

On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 11:13:32 AM UTC-7, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> <rant>
>
> I'm going to tell you a deep, dark secret. Okay, it's not very deep or
> dark, and not really a secret, but you probably didn't know (and, I
> admit, didn't really care to know) the following either. But here it
> is, regardless:
>
> Until a month ago, I was still using Windows 7 as my primary gaming
> machine and - indeed - my daily driver for most of my work. Oh, I had
> access to Windows 10 - and other operating systems - for when software
> (or situation) required, but most of the time when I sat down to work
> or play? Yeah, Windows 7 was what I was using.
>
> But I knew that my reliance on that outdated, 15-year old OS was one
> with an obvious (some would say long-past) end-date, and my next PC
> was going to have to use something else, and when the inevitable
> upgrade came around, it came with Windows 11.
>
> And I hate it.
>
> Well, hate is perhaps too strong a word. But there's a lot about it
> that I dislike. Some of the problems I've been able to work around,
> but others remain consistent thorns in my side.
>
> There's Microsoft's insistence on tying its OS to its online services.
> Because I paid a premium, I could at least use the computer without
> registering the PC with a Microsoft account (that's not an option if
> you use the Home edition), but it's still annoyingly insistent at
> times. I've done my best to disable most of the more egregious demands
> - no more 'hints' (aka adverts) to use MS software the lock screen,
> thank you very much), but God forbid I hit Win+C; Microsoft Teams will
> pop up whether I want it or not (even after I uninstalled the damn
> thing, it will helpfully reinstall the program... even if I've
> followed Microsoft's own instructions and disabled that 'feature' with
> a registry hack). And -even after too many of those MS apps that I've
> uninstalled come back after Windows Update is done doing its thing.
>
> Which leads to the major complaint I have with the OS; it's too
> domineering. With Win11, even more than with Windows 10, it's not /my/
> computer; it's Microsoft's. Features are added or removed at
> Microsoft's whims, and decisions I've made are changed regardless of
> my opinion to better fit with Microsoft's vision. Don't even get me
> started on forced updates.
>
> They've even fucked up gaming. Microsoft completely revamped how
> 'notifications' are handled (because that was a feature absolutely
> needed on a desktop OS, right?), and Windows - and other apps - is
> constantly stealing focus from the active program. Sometimes this is
> inconsequential; even as I was writing this sentence, the desktop
> wallpaper changed in the background, and the active app flicked in and
> out of focus but it didn't really interrupt my workflow except for a
> momentary visual aberration. But earlier today, as I was driving down
> the road in Eurotruck Simulator, I was pulled out of the game for some
> reminder, and - unguided by human hand - my truck ended up slamming
> into a tree. (I had similar happenstance in 'Cyberpunk 2077'). You can
> disable notifications, but it's an all-or-nothing thing. Notifications
> were largely a solved problem prior to this; this reversion is
> annoying for that reason alone.
>
> Then there's the Start menu; the bane of the OS since Microsoft
> decided to start fucking around with it again in Windows 8. Honestly,
> I think it's the worst iteration, taking the worst parts of Metro and
> trying to plaster over them with half-assed fixes. Sure, there are
> third-party apps to revert the shell to something halfway useful but I
> shouldn't HAVE to use something like that
>
> (anyway, none of the third-party apps work that well with multiple
> displays).
>
> I've hacked together something halfway useful with a variety of
> registry hacks and third-party fixes, but I've no confidence these
> fixes will keep working six months down the line, and I've seen a
> significant loss in capability even over Windows 10.
>
> I'll grant you this much, Windows 11 is a fairly swift and stable OS,
> but that's hardly remarkable; prior versions of Windows were no
> slouches in this area, and if there's a five or ten percent speed
> boost over Windows 10, it's not noticeable. And crashes? The number of
> blue-screens I've seen since I installed XP - twenty years! - can
> probably be counted on my two hands. It's a solved issue, and I'm not
> crediting Windows 11 for any of it.
>
> Of course, there are alternatives. Proton on Linux is remarkably
> compatible, even if the OS does have a significant learning curve;
> Linux was my OS of choice for 'secure' work (like checking the bank
> accounts) while I was stuck in the Win7 doldrums. And Windows 10 -
> flawed as it is - remains a more palatable vision. At least it doesn't
> force you to combine buttons on the taskbar...
>
> Windows 11? It's only on my PC because I know it's inevitable. But
> it's nothing I'd recommend.

I agree with everything said, though I only use W11 at work because
it's required. I'm on win 10 on my gaming PC.

I also hate the newer settings which could be mostly avoided with W10.

I think it's the ghost of 98se & vista returned.

- Justisaur

Am 18.06.23 um 20:13 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
> Of course, there are alternatives. Proton on Linux is remarkably
> compatible, even if the OS does have a significant learning curve;

Don´t tell me, I have not played on the PC even once, since I have
gotten my steam deck. What you cannot run with proton usually runs with
Proton-GE!

Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 11:13:32???AM UTC-7, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
> > <rant>
> >
> > I'm going to tell you a deep, dark secret. Okay, it's not very deep or
> > dark, and not really a secret, but you probably didn't know (and, I
> > admit, didn't really care to know) the following either. But here it
> > is, regardless:
> >
> > Until a month ago, I was still using Windows 7 as my primary gaming
> > machine and - indeed - my daily driver for most of my work. Oh, I had
> > access to Windows 10 - and other operating systems - for when software
> > (or situation) required, but most of the time when I sat down to work
> > or play? Yeah, Windows 7 was what I was using.
> >
> > But I knew that my reliance on that outdated, 15-year old OS was one
> > with an obvious (some would say long-past) end-date, and my next PC
> > was going to have to use something else, and when the inevitable
> > upgrade came around, it came with Windows 11.
> >
> > And I hate it.
> >
> > Well, hate is perhaps too strong a word. But there's a lot about it
> > that I dislike. Some of the problems I've been able to work around,
> > but others remain consistent thorns in my side.
> >
> > There's Microsoft's insistence on tying its OS to its online services.
> > Because I paid a premium, I could at least use the computer without
> > registering the PC with a Microsoft account (that's not an option if
> > you use the Home edition), but it's still annoyingly insistent at
> > times. I've done my best to disable most of the more egregious demands
> > - no more 'hints' (aka adverts) to use MS software the lock screen,
> > thank you very much), but God forbid I hit Win+C; Microsoft Teams will
> > pop up whether I want it or not (even after I uninstalled the damn
> > thing, it will helpfully reinstall the program... even if I've
> > followed Microsoft's own instructions and disabled that 'feature' with
> > a registry hack). And -even after too many of those MS apps that I've
> > uninstalled come back after Windows Update is done doing its thing.
> >
> > Which leads to the major complaint I have with the OS; it's too
> > domineering. With Win11, even more than with Windows 10, it's not /my/
> > computer; it's Microsoft's. Features are added or removed at
> > Microsoft's whims, and decisions I've made are changed regardless of
> > my opinion to better fit with Microsoft's vision. Don't even get me
> > started on forced updates.
> >
> > They've even fucked up gaming. Microsoft completely revamped how
> > 'notifications' are handled (because that was a feature absolutely
> > needed on a desktop OS, right?), and Windows - and other apps - is
> > constantly stealing focus from the active program. Sometimes this is
> > inconsequential; even as I was writing this sentence, the desktop
> > wallpaper changed in the background, and the active app flicked in and
> > out of focus but it didn't really interrupt my workflow except for a
> > momentary visual aberration. But earlier today, as I was driving down
> > the road in Eurotruck Simulator, I was pulled out of the game for some
> > reminder, and - unguided by human hand - my truck ended up slamming
> > into a tree. (I had similar happenstance in 'Cyberpunk 2077'). You can
> > disable notifications, but it's an all-or-nothing thing. Notifications
> > were largely a solved problem prior to this; this reversion is
> > annoying for that reason alone.
> >
> > Then there's the Start menu; the bane of the OS since Microsoft
> > decided to start fucking around with it again in Windows 8. Honestly,
> > I think it's the worst iteration, taking the worst parts of Metro and
> > trying to plaster over them with half-assed fixes. Sure, there are
> > third-party apps to revert the shell to something halfway useful but I
> > shouldn't HAVE to use something like that
> >
> > (anyway, none of the third-party apps work that well with multiple
> > displays).
> >
> > I've hacked together something halfway useful with a variety of
> > registry hacks and third-party fixes, but I've no confidence these
> > fixes will keep working six months down the line, and I've seen a
> > significant loss in capability even over Windows 10.
> >
> > I'll grant you this much, Windows 11 is a fairly swift and stable OS,
> > but that's hardly remarkable; prior versions of Windows were no
> > slouches in this area, and if there's a five or ten percent speed
> > boost over Windows 10, it's not noticeable. And crashes? The number of
> > blue-screens I've seen since I installed XP - twenty years! - can
> > probably be counted on my two hands. It's a solved issue, and I'm not
> > crediting Windows 11 for any of it.
> >
> > Of course, there are alternatives. Proton on Linux is remarkably
> > compatible, even if the OS does have a significant learning curve;
> > Linux was my OS of choice for 'secure' work (like checking the bank
> > accounts) while I was stuck in the Win7 doldrums. And Windows 10 -
> > flawed as it is - remains a more palatable vision. At least it doesn't
> > force you to combine buttons on the taskbar...
> >
> > Windows 11? It's only on my PC because I know it's inevitable. But
> > it's nothing I'd recommend.

> I agree with everything said, though I only use W11 at work because
> it's required. I'm on win 10 on my gaming PC.

> I also hate the newer settings which could be mostly avoided with W10.

> I think it's the ghost of 98se & vista returned.

Windows and other OSes keep getting worse. :(
--
"Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.' --John 3:5. Fell behind due 2 2 flicks (Shazam 2 & The Right Stuff) under <24 hrs. b4 Juneteenth.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 14:13:25 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>Windows 11? It's only on my PC because I know it's inevitable. But
>it's nothing I'd recommend.

Interesting rant

I have Windows 11 on one PC that I sometimes game on. It's OK but I'm
not at all enthused to 'upgrade' my main gaming PC from 10 to 11. I
don't care for it as an OS for daily use.

I also have an XP machine and a 98 machine that I quite frequently use
for older games. Both OS's are on separate systems.

Windows 7 was really good as far as my memory serves me. I jumped on
Windows 10 on the Insider program and never went back.

I did try Windows 8 and hated it with a passion. I never ever used
Vista or Windows 2000 at home. I used all other versions of Windows
starting with Windows 2.0 on a 286 12 MHZ (gaming was very limited on
that one!)

If I had to choose one, I would plump for XP for gaming, for nothing
other than reasons of nostalgia I suppose, with 98 a close second.

At work, I used everything from 3.11 onwards. It never bothered me
which one I used.

Like you, I'll have to move to 11 at some point I suppose.

--
Rob

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 11:18:00 +0100, Mr Rob
<noemailformethx@jsjsaiiowppw.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 14:13:25 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Windows 11? It's only on my PC because I know it's inevitable. But
>>it's nothing I'd recommend.
>
>Interesting rant
>
>I have Windows 11 on one PC that I sometimes game on. It's OK but I'm
>not at all enthused to 'upgrade' my main gaming PC from 10 to 11. I
>don't care for it as an OS for daily use.
>
>I also have an XP machine and a 98 machine that I quite frequently use
>for older games. Both OS's are on separate systems.

>Windows 7 was really good as far as my memory serves me. I jumped on
>Windows 10 on the Insider program and never went back.

I'd have stayed with Windows 7 if I could. But between increasing
security issues, ever fewer apps supporting it (both Firefox and Steam
will stop working on it in 2024), and increasingly poor support for
modern hardware, it's remaining lifespan was limited. But in terms of
usability, it hit a sweet spot few iterations of the OS have matched.

>I did try Windows 8 and hated it with a passion. I never ever used
>Vista or Windows 2000 at home. I used all other versions of Windows
>starting with Windows 2.0 on a 286 12 MHZ (gaming was very limited on
>that one!)

>If I had to choose one, I would plump for XP for gaming, for nothing
>other than reasons of nostalgia I suppose, with 98 a close second.

>At work, I used everything from 3.11 onwards. It never bothered me
>which one I used.

>Like you, I'll have to move to 11 at some point I suppose.

I've been with Windows since 3.0.

Actually, I may have used an older version - I don't know if it was
1.0 or 2.0 - but I don't think I was really aware that it was Windows.
It was just some launcher. I only think this because, years later, I
reinstalled Windows 2.0 into DOSBox and it looked awfully familiar.
But maybe I'm just remembering some other DOS Shell. They were a dime
a dozen in the mid/late 80s, and a lot of them looked alike. Windows
3.0 was the first one I remember as being distinctly "Windows".

Every new iteration of Windows has had its problems. XP had its awful
"Luna" theme. Vista was overly aggressive with its UAC prompts.
Windows 7 had a real hard time remembering windows positions*. Windows
8 had Metro. But most of these could be worked around, and - despite
my grumbles - I always had a feeling of progression when upgrading.

<rant mode re-engaged)

Not so with Windows 11. It doesn't do anything Windows10 doesn't (not
in any significant way), except further push the connection between OS
and Microsoft's online services, and fuck around with the interface.
It inherits all of the bad habits of its earlier siblings, corrects
none of them, and adds more of its own issues. It's a product designed
to fix Microsoft's problems, not the users.

And there are just so many niggling annoyances that just don't need to
exist. Oh, sure, on the face of it, there's not much change from
Windows 10 (or even Windows 7). But dig a little deeper and you start
bumping into constraints Microsoft has unnecessarily imposed for no
discernable reason.

So, here's an example.

I have an app - a command-line program with the usual alpha-numeric
gibberish for a filename - that I use to launch a document. The
shortcut is:

"c:\blahblah\x55d29.exe -t -r -f e:\blah\blah\CrucialFiles.flib".

I rename the shortcut to "Crucial Files" and pin it to the start menu.

Windows renames the shortcut "x55d29.exe". After all, that's the name
of the program, and that's the important bit, right? Docu-centric
workflow? That's so 2000s. We're all about apps now. It does similar
things with network shares.

There are work-arounds to these problems (in this instance, I just
duplicated the EXE and renamed it "Crucial Files.exe") but it's little
nonsense like that which I'm constantly bumping against.

Here's another: Microsoft actually has a pretty nice (if basic) Scan
app; I installed it for a tech-illiterate colleague who needed to scan
stuff. It's a Windows App store program; it downloaded and installed
quickly, found his scanner, and works flawlessly. Perfect. But the
gentleman in question - being older - still finds the whole 'Start
Menu' thing a bit confusing. No problem; I'll just drag it to the
desktop and he can double-click the icon to launch the desktop.
Except... nope. YOU CAN'T DO THAT! Pin it to the Start Menu? Sure. Pin
it to the desktop? Not a problem. But launch an app from the desktop?
What a mad idea.

It's stupid, it's counter-intuitive, it hampers productivity. It's
Windows 11 in a nutshell.

(Oh, and the bugs. As I'm typing this, File Explorer just randomly
opened. Just, pop and "Hello, File Explorer is here; I've stolen focus
away from the app you were using! Isn't this fun?" Why? No idea. It's
a known bug**. It just happens and all you can do is close it and hope
Microsoft gets around to fixing it. But that's Windows 11.)

Microsoft recently announced it's bringing a new version of File
Explorer where you won't be able to change certain options (like
showing operating system files) without a registry hack. Why? Nobody
asked for this. The option - keeping the files hidden is already the
default - was only used by people who needed it, and it was hidden
behind multiple levels of menu already. But being able to tinker with
those files makes it easier to break Microsoft's stranglehold on its
control of your PC.

Look how difficult they make it to find the program files for their
Windows App Store programs. Windows - and PCs in general - have long
been all about the freedom to do things your way; Microsoft wants to
change that, and turn it into a locked-down ecosystem to emulate
Apple's IOS platform... and Windows 11 is a big step in that
direction.

I /endure/ Windows 11. But it's very much a work in progress with no
defined purpose except to facilitate Microsoft's own goals. It's not a
recommended upgrade, except that Windows10 is being deprecated so if
you want to keep your computer secure you'll eventually have to
upgrade, and - as much as I wish otherwise - Linux alternatives just
aren't there yet for the hoi polloi.

On the plus side, it manages to make Windows 10 look awesome in
comparison.

<rant mode disengaged>

----------------
* Side note: I just want to give ShellFolderFix a shout out.
https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/shellfolderfix.html It was a
life-saver in this regard and ended up on every Win7+ machine I've
owned. Folders now stay on the monitor where I left them! It still
works in Windows 11, which is similarly amnesiac, albeit not quite as
smoothly.
**
https://www.howtogeek.com/884624/youre-not-alone-windows-11-is-randomly-opening-file-explorer/

It sounds like MS is going "all in" on making Windows for corporate use
_only_. A lot of those restrictive features are things that large
corporations that have to support thousands of workstations want. They
want every workstation _exactly_ the same and no customization or
alterations by the user. One, to keep tech support requirements low by
preventing "outside" programs from interacting with what they want the
employee using the workstation for. And two, "Big Brother" type control
and surveillance of their employees to "protect from legal action".
(Gotta stop those whistleblowers from letting the regulators know how
far outside the law the company operates.) (Yes, I know #2 sounds
paranoid but I actually pay attention to the news.)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 14:13:25 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>They've even fucked up gaming. Microsoft completely revamped how
>'notifications' are handled (because that was a feature absolutely
>needed on a desktop OS, right?), and Windows - and other apps - is
>constantly stealing focus from the active program. Sometimes this is
>inconsequential; even as I was writing this sentence, the desktop
>wallpaper changed in the background, and the active app flicked in and
>out of focus but it didn't really interrupt my workflow except for a
>momentary visual aberration. But earlier today, as I was driving down
>the road in Eurotruck Simulator, I was pulled out of the game for some
>reminder, and - unguided by human hand - my truck ended up slamming
>into a tree. (I had similar happenstance in 'Cyberpunk 2077'). You can
>disable notifications, but it's an all-or-nothing thing. Notifications
>were largely a solved problem prior to this; this reversion is
>annoying for that reason alone.

You may be using borderless window? If you use full-screen mode, Windows
11 should go into Do Not Disturb mode. There may be a setting you have to
tick, but it will shut up and when you return it will give you a digest
of things that happened while you were in full-screen mode.

In any event, that ain't supposed to happen and doesn't on my system. It
may be a borderless window thing.

You can also tick the sleepy little bell on the clock menu, if you'd
rather have explicit control of it, but this may already be your "all or
nothing" solution.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:

> I'll grant you this much, Windows 11 is a fairly swift and stable OS,
> but that's hardly remarkable; prior versions of Windows were no
> slouches in this area, and if there's a five or ten percent speed
> boost over Windows 10, it's not noticeable. And crashes? The number of
> blue-screens I've seen since I installed XP - twenty years! - can
> probably be counted on my two hands. It's a solved issue, and I'm not
> crediting Windows 11 for any of it.

I thought those were gone too but then my work PC started blue screening
this winter. Usually when going to hibernation so instead of a wake up I
got a reboot. I'm not sure what finally fixed it, there was a BIOS
update which may have helped. Before that I did make a new acquaintance
called the Windows Driver Verifier. It's a builtin tool in Windows 10 to
try and find out which driver is messing up your computer.

I turned it on, then the computer wouldn't boot at all and I had an
embarrassing visit to the IT department to get the unlock code to be
able to get to safe mode and turn it off again. Not trying that again,
at least not with a corporate PC.

> Windows 11? It's only on my PC because I know it's inevitable. But
> it's nothing I'd recommend.

So far I've demurred the offers to "upgrade" my desktop but I do have a
lightweight laptop which came with Windows 11. I basically got it to
have a computer to get shit done and that I can give friends and family
and they can get their shit done on it too. On the go or at
home. Although the UI language is English and caps is mapped to control,
it's my computer after all. But then most of my family and friends don't
know what the control button is for anyways...

The biggest annoyance for me is the primitive task bar. With today's low
aspect displays I usually want it on the right edge. There's Explorer
Pathcer which brings back mostly the Windows 10 task bar including
placement on any edge. Problem is, when Windows is updated, things
sometimes break. Sometimes so badly I need to boot to safe mode to fix it.

So Explorer Patcher is hardly an ideal solution. But when it works, it's
brilliant. Or at least as good as Windows 10 which is pretty good.

As for the good, well, I really like how Windows 11 improves multiple
display support. You'd think Microsoft would've licked it a while ago
but no. In Windows 10 there's all this flickering and blinking and
general craziness when displays come and go. Some apps even place their
windows outside the visible area or minimize to a single pixel (looking
at Firefox, here). Windows 11 seems to skip all that weirdness and just
go.

Re the Windows account, I don't think I've bothered with that. Maybe
it's due to age, it's a 2021 Samsgung Galaxy Book Pro 360 and the
stronger push to having a Windows account has come later? Of course,
since it's a Samsung there's the extra push to have a Samsung account
too but I don't think I've needed that either.

On 18/06/2023 20:59, Mike S. wrote:
> I only update the OS when I have to or when I buy a new computer with
> it preinstalled.

Yep same here, I put off updating from Win7 to Win10 until MS announced
support for Win7 was being withdrawn. I did have a slight moment of
panic when it seemed that the free upgrade had been withdrawn but a bit
of googlefoo fixed that for me.

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 09:15:38 +0300, Anssi Saari
<anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:

>So far I've demurred the offers to "upgrade" my desktop but I do have a
>lightweight laptop which came with Windows 11. I basically got it to
>have a computer to get shit done and that I can give friends and family
>and they can get their shit done on it too. On the go or at
>home. Although the UI language is English and caps is mapped to control,
>it's my computer after all. But then most of my family and friends don't
>know what the control button is for anyways...
>
>The biggest annoyance for me is the primitive task bar. With today's low
>aspect displays I usually want it on the right edge. There's Explorer
>Pathcer which brings back mostly the Windows 10 task bar including
>placement on any edge. Problem is, when Windows is updated, things
>sometimes break. Sometimes so badly I need to boot to safe mode to fix it.
>
>So Explorer Patcher is hardly an ideal solution. But when it works, it's
>brilliant. Or at least as good as Windows 10 which is pretty good.

Explorer patcher is a must, if you want to move your taskbar or
prevent the shell from merging duplicate windows into a single button.
Microsoft's insistence on constantly changing the interface is the
bane of many users and enterprises, and their tone-deaf refusal to
listen to criticism or suggestions is telling.

>As for the good, well, I really like how Windows 11 improves multiple
>display support. You'd think Microsoft would've licked it a while ago
>but no. In Windows 10 there's all this flickering and blinking and
>general craziness when displays come and go. Some apps even place their
>windows outside the visible area or minimize to a single pixel (looking
>at Firefox, here). Windows 11 seems to skip all that weirdness and just
>go.

Yeah, Microsoft really lagged behind on the multi-desktop craze.
Having doubled and trebeled on monitors since the XP days, it's been
annoying how I've always had to rely on third-party apps to make up
for the OS's lapses. Even Windows 11 is still imperfect (why can't I
customize each taskbar to each screen, with different icons and
position of the 'bar on each, for instance?)

>Re the Windows account, I don't think I've bothered with that. Maybe
>it's due to age, it's a 2021 Samsgung Galaxy Book Pro 360 and the
>stronger push to having a Windows account has come later? Of course,
>since it's a Samsung there's the extra push to have a Samsung account
>too but I don't think I've needed that either.

While it was possible to bypass the requirement in Windows 10 by
creating a 'local account', Windows 11 Home (which is what most people
will get) doesn't allow you to use the computer without creating an
Microsoft account. That is - currently - only possible if using Win11
Professional or higher... and there are suspicions that option will be
removed from all but the Enterprise editions.

The TL;DR of it is that Windows 11 is not ready for prime-time; it was
rushed to market with too many inconsistencies, bad design choices,
and bugs.

JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
> On 18/06/2023 20:59, Mike S. wrote:
> > I only update the OS when I have to or when I buy a new computer with
> > it preinstalled.

> Yep same here, I put off updating from Win7 to Win10 until MS announced
> support for Win7 was being withdrawn. I did have a slight moment of
> panic when it seemed that the free upgrade had been withdrawn but a bit
> of googlefoo fixed that for me.

For me, it was the newer hardwares. :(
--
"Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD." --Psalm 34:11. Summer hump day, but still crappy after Zing <7 hrs.
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On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 04:15:34 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>> On 18/06/2023 20:59, Mike S. wrote:
>> > I only update the OS when I have to or when I buy a new computer with
>> > it preinstalled.
>
>> Yep same here, I put off updating from Win7 to Win10 until MS announced
>> support for Win7 was being withdrawn. I did have a slight moment of
>> panic when it seemed that the free upgrade had been withdrawn but a bit
>> of googlefoo fixed that for me.
>
>For me, it was the newer hardwares. :(

Same, for my primary machine. Usually. Except when not.

But given that I've a herd of other PCs to tinker with, I'm never
limited to a single OS. Linux, MacOS, Haiku, DOS, Windows of every
variety; I got 'em all (but no, no TempleOS machine, stop asking). And
if I don't have a machine with an OS, there's always an emulator to
test it. And if even that isn't available, there's always a friend who
has the OS on their computer. So getting hands-on is never an issue.

Still, its rare that I upgrade the OS of a working machine. For one
thing, I almost never do 'in place' upgrades, because I find them too
messy and unreliable. Thus, a full wipe-n-reinstall is required, and
while the OS install is fairly quick, the time to apply all the
patches, install all the apps and tweak all the settings can be
enormous. And during that time I'm without my primary PC? Bah, humbug.

So usually I only do an OS upgrade when I get a new PC. There are, of
course, exceptions (I think I jumped from XP to Win7), but they're
rare.

Besides, new Operating Systems almost inevitably require more
horsepower than the old ones, and who wants to upgrade their PC only
to discover it's running SLOWER? At least with new hardware, the added
overhead is disguised by the added performance.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2023 04:15:34 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

> >JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
> >> On 18/06/2023 20:59, Mike S. wrote:
> >> > I only update the OS when I have to or when I buy a new computer with
> >> > it preinstalled.
> >
> >> Yep same here, I put off updating from Win7 to Win10 until MS announced
> >> support for Win7 was being withdrawn. I did have a slight moment of
> >> panic when it seemed that the free upgrade had been withdrawn but a bit
> >> of googlefoo fixed that for me.
> >
> >For me, it was the newer hardwares. :(

> Same, for my primary machine. Usually. Except when not.

> But given that I've a herd of other PCs to tinker with, I'm never
> limited to a single OS. Linux, MacOS, Haiku, DOS, Windows of every
> variety; I got 'em all (but no, no TempleOS machine, stop asking). And
> if I don't have a machine with an OS, there's always an emulator to
> test it. And if even that isn't available, there's always a friend who
> has the OS on their computer. So getting hands-on is never an issue.

Same!

> Still, its rare that I upgrade the OS of a working machine. For one
> thing, I almost never do 'in place' upgrades, because I find them too
> messy and unreliable. Thus, a full wipe-n-reinstall is required, and
> while the OS install is fairly quick, the time to apply all the
> patches, install all the apps and tweak all the settings can be
> enormous. And during that time I'm without my primary PC? Bah, humbug.

Same. It gets messy and confusing! Sometimes I just wait for my drives
or corrupted old installations to force me to clean install. :)

> So usually I only do an OS upgrade when I get a new PC. There are, of
> course, exceptions (I think I jumped from XP to Win7), but they're
> rare.

> Besides, new Operating Systems almost inevitably require more
> horsepower than the old ones, and who wants to upgrade their PC only
> to discover it's running SLOWER? At least with new hardware, the added
> overhead is disguised by the added performance.

Yep.
--
"Ill-gotten treasures are of no value, but righteousness delivers from death." --Proverbs 10:2. RIP 2 Titanic's & Titan submersible's peep.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
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Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Explorer patcher is a must, if you want to move your taskbar or
>prevent the shell from merging duplicate windows into a single button.
>Microsoft's insistence on constantly changing the interface is the
>bane of many users and enterprises, and their tone-deaf refusal to
>listen to criticism or suggestions is telling.

The taskbar merging windows is the one thing I really can't stand about
Windows 11. I'm still using Windows 7 on my old computer for everything
except playing games in large part because of that. Fortunately the
same update that is supposed to be removing those File Explorer options
is also supposed to be adding back the option of having separate taskbar
buttons for each window.

Even with that fixed, I'd still rather be using Windows 7. It was the
last version of Windows to support the classic Windows 95 style UI desgin,
which was both simple and effective. Buttons that looked like buttons
without having to look like real shiny plastic buttons. But Windows
7 hardware support is dead at this point, and most new games won't run
on it. So my new computer has Windows 11 and I'l eventually make it my
main PC.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
....
> Even with that fixed, I'd still rather be using Windows 7. It was the
> last version of Windows to support the classic Windows 95 style UI desgin,
> which was both simple and effective. Buttons that looked like buttons
> without having to look like real shiny plastic buttons. But Windows
> 7 hardware support is dead at this point, and most new games won't run
> on it. So my new computer has Windows 11 and I'l eventually make it my
> main PC.

W2K was the best Windows version of all! :( Windows and other OSes keep
getting worse IMO. So yeah, W7 > W10 > W11. Heck, I'd even use Vista
over them.

--
"But [Jesus] said, 'I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.' --Luke 4:43." RIP 2 Titanic's & Titan submersible's peep.
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On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 23:35:44 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>...
>> Even with that fixed, I'd still rather be using Windows 7. It was the
>> last version of Windows to support the classic Windows 95 style UI desgin,
>> which was both simple and effective. Buttons that looked like buttons
>> without having to look like real shiny plastic buttons. But Windows
>> 7 hardware support is dead at this point, and most new games won't run
>> on it. So my new computer has Windows 11 and I'l eventually make it my
>> main PC.
>
>W2K was the best Windows version of all! :( Windows and other OSes keep
>getting worse IMO. So yeah, W7 > W10 > W11. Heck, I'd even use Vista
>over them.

Vista gets a bad rap. It's not entirely undeserved, but it's a lot
better than most people think. Windows 7 is, essentially, Vista with
some of the rougher edges sanded down, and W7 is considered one of the
better editions of the OS.

Several things hampered Vista's uptake. First, it was too often
released on hardware that simply couldn't support it. Vista wanted at
least 4GB (and could get by on 2GB) but it was often released on PCs
with 1GB... or less. It also didn't help that - because of XP's
longevity - that was an immense jump in system requirements between XP
and Vista, which meant a lot of older machines couldn't realistically
make the upgrade. Released on such paltry hardware, the Vista
experience was extremely painful, and gave the users an immediate bad
impression of the OS. Everything just felt so much slower.

Another big fault was the exhuberance of Microsoft's User Account
Controls. It felt like almost everything you did would trigger the
pop-up. Oddly, I don't disagree with this choice: developers had been
too long taking unsafe shortcuts in their programming, and the
frequent UAC notifications helped point this out. And it was an
effective warning; programmers quickly took the lesson and turned to
less invasive methods of doing things to avoid the disruptive
pop-ups... but in the meantime, users suffered. And Vista got the
blame.

Locking DirectX 10 to Vista didn't gain it fans either. There was no
real reason - except to help Microsoft's bottom line - that Dx10
couldn't be backported to XP (and, in fact, there were hacks that did
just that). Of course, there were some fundamental - and, arguably,
quite necessary - changes to the video subsystem in Vista, and
allowing Dx10 onto XP would only have extended that OS's lifespan...
but that choice alienated a lot of PC gamers.

Vista's tortured development also meant that many of its newer
features were half-baked; either not completely fleshed out, or having
irksome design choices, or being poorly optimized. But a lot of these
problems were fixed in later updates. Many of the under-the-hood
changes from Win7 were backported to Vista, and - nowadays - there's
not much difference between the two.

These days, its hard for me to see much difference between Vista and
Windows 7. I mean, if forced to make a choice I'd much rather the
latter over the former - and, inevitably, if installing Windows on
2010-era hardware, I pick Windows 7 every time - but both are
functionally equivalent.

Even if it does sort of gall me to admit it.

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 10:50:34 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 23:35:44 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>
>>Ross Ridge <rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>...
>>> Even with that fixed, I'd still rather be using Windows 7. It was the
>>> last version of Windows to support the classic Windows 95 style UI desgin,
>>> which was both simple and effective. Buttons that looked like buttons
>>> without having to look like real shiny plastic buttons. But Windows
>>> 7 hardware support is dead at this point, and most new games won't run
>>> on it. So my new computer has Windows 11 and I'l eventually make it my
>>> main PC.
>>
>>W2K was the best Windows version of all! :( Windows and other OSes keep
>>getting worse IMO. So yeah, W7 > W10 > W11. Heck, I'd even use Vista
>>over them.
>
>Vista gets a bad rap. It's not entirely undeserved, but it's a lot
>better than most people think. Windows 7 is, essentially, Vista with
>some of the rougher edges sanded down, and W7 is considered one of the
>better editions of the OS.
>
>Several things hampered Vista's uptake.

IIRC, Vista also launched before Nvidia's drivers were fully ready, which
meant that the whole aero interface didn't work properly, video crashes,
etc. I remember muttering to myself that you don't release without major
third party vendors ready to go. Microsoft did. Nvidia's fault. MS got
the blame though.

Also, Aero let users enable it whose systems had no business doing so.

Again, IIRC.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
....
> IIRC, Vista also launched before Nvidia's drivers were fully ready, which
> meant that the whole aero interface didn't work properly, video crashes,
> etc. I remember muttering to myself that you don't release without major
> third party vendors ready to go. Microsoft did. Nvidia's fault. MS got
> the blame though.

> Also, Aero let users enable it whose systems had no business doing so.

Wow, NVIDIA waited after Vista? When I was working for Symantec, we had
to crunch on getting Norton products ready for it! NVIDIA had a lot of
time to test too! So yeah, they failed.
--
"Andrew, Simon Peter???s brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, 'We have found the Messiah' (that is, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus." --John 1:40-42. Slammy week so far.
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:34:34 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>...
>> IIRC, Vista also launched before Nvidia's drivers were fully ready, which
>> meant that the whole aero interface didn't work properly, video crashes,
>> etc. I remember muttering to myself that you don't release without major
>> third party vendors ready to go. Microsoft did. Nvidia's fault. MS got
>> the blame though.
>
>> Also, Aero let users enable it whose systems had no business doing so.
>
>Wow, NVIDIA waited after Vista? When I was working for Symantec, we had
>to crunch on getting Norton products ready for it! NVIDIA had a lot of
>time to test too! So yeah, they failed.

That's not entirely accurate. There were WHQL-certified drivers for
nVidia cards available for Vista prior to launch.*

However,the NVidia drivers that /were/ available on release were
fairly buggy, to the point a few disgruntled users filed a
class-action suit.** This was especially noticable in Nvidia's new G80
cards, which were released in conjunction with Vista.

The end result of this combination - a brand new GPU architecture
coupled with Microsoft's significant revamp of Windows video subsystem
- resulted in significant problems: some 30% of crashes in Vista's
first few months could be laid squarely at the feet of nVidia's
drivers (ATI did slightly better, causing only 10% of the crashes.
Intel was only slightly behind)***. Of course, NVidia had a
significantly larger market share too, which magnified its numbers.
Older Nvidia cards - especially those that didn't support the new
DirectX10 API - fared better.

So NVidia undoubtedly had a driver issue on Vista's release... but so
did everyone else. But those sort of teething troubles weren't
uncommon to new Microsoft operating systems, and most of the issues
were smoothed away by mid-2007.

But none of it helped Vista's reputation. Still, those teething
troubles were probably inevitable; the changes to the video subsystem
were fairly radical but necessary and I think that - even had hardware
companies been given more times - they still would have stumbled. But
once OEMs started developing better drivers and shipping machines with
hardware better matched to Vista's requirements - and Microsoft ironed
out some of the more egregious bugs - Vista was a fairly capable OS.
Of course, by the time that happened, Windows 7 was already in late
beta, and Microsoft was doing everything it could to make people
forget about Vista entirely.

TL;DR: Vista wasn't as bad as people remember.

* https://hothardware.com/news/nvidia-releases-vista-ready-drivers
**
https://www.zdnet.com/article/vista-users-frustrations-with-nvidia-come-to-a-head/
***
https://www.crn.com/news/components-peripherals/206905475/vista-capable-suit-sheds-harsh-light-on-nvidia.htm

On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 18:48:49 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:34:34 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>
>>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>...
>>> IIRC, Vista also launched before Nvidia's drivers were fully ready, which
>>> meant that the whole aero interface didn't work properly, video crashes,
>>> etc. I remember muttering to myself that you don't release without major
>>> third party vendors ready to go. Microsoft did. Nvidia's fault. MS got
>>> the blame though.
>>
>>> Also, Aero let users enable it whose systems had no business doing so.
>>
>>Wow, NVIDIA waited after Vista? When I was working for Symantec, we had
>>to crunch on getting Norton products ready for it! NVIDIA had a lot of
>>time to test too! So yeah, they failed.
>
>That's not entirely accurate. There were WHQL-certified drivers for
>nVidia cards available for Vista prior to launch.

Yeah, they were WHQL; so Microsoft's fault too. They certified the mess.

Basically, the whole thing went out half-baked, instead of "it's done
when it's done." Bad choice. Made by marketers I'm sure. I hope someone
got fired.

Microsoft did a major overhaul of the video system, removing it from the
kernel, and they should have done far more extensive testing. I'm pretty
sure they just slapped on the WHQL imprimatur just to release.

So again, MS not completely innocent here, but it was good to revert from
the days of NT4 when the video was wrapped up in the kernel in the first
place. Remember the new OpenGL screensavers?

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 08:00:40 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 18:48:49 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:34:34 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>>
>>>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>...
>>>> IIRC, Vista also launched before Nvidia's drivers were fully ready, which
>>>> meant that the whole aero interface didn't work properly, video crashes,
>>>> etc. I remember muttering to myself that you don't release without major
>>>> third party vendors ready to go. Microsoft did. Nvidia's fault. MS got
>>>> the blame though.
>>>
>>>> Also, Aero let users enable it whose systems had no business doing so.
>>>
>>>Wow, NVIDIA waited after Vista? When I was working for Symantec, we had
>>>to crunch on getting Norton products ready for it! NVIDIA had a lot of
>>>time to test too! So yeah, they failed.
>>
>>That's not entirely accurate. There were WHQL-certified drivers for
>>nVidia cards available for Vista prior to launch.
>
>Yeah, they were WHQL; so Microsoft's fault too. They certified the mess.
>
>Basically, the whole thing went out half-baked, instead of "it's done
>when it's done." Bad choice. Made by marketers I'm sure. I hope someone
>got fired.
>
>Microsoft did a major overhaul of the video system, removing it from the
>kernel, and they should have done far more extensive testing. I'm pretty
>sure they just slapped on the WHQL imprimatur just to release.
>
>So again, MS not completely innocent here, but it was good to revert from
>the days of NT4 when the video was wrapped up in the kernel in the first
>place. Remember the new OpenGL screensavers?

No. ;-)

But there significant performance gains to running video-drivers in
the kernel-space, and back when CPUs measured their speed in dozens -
or even a few hundred - megahertz, you needed to eke out every
advantage you could. I don't fault Microsoft for allowing ring-0
drivers; the performance hit would have made Windows unsuitable for
gaming for close to a decade otherwise.

Not that I'm complaining about it (most) drivers being in user-space
now, though. I've got performance to spare.

(Hey, cpu cores #16 through #23; wake up! I dunnom, find something to
do! I'm not feeding you electricity just so you can loaf about! ;-)