When it comes to mid-90s FPS games, "Doom" is undoubtedly the king...
but "Dark Forces" always came a close second, as far as I was
concerned. And as much as I love "Doom", "Dark Forces" is by far the
more modern of the two games, with its more 'realistic' level design
and story-based adventure hearkening to what "Half Life" would later
standardize.

"Dark Forces" was never a 'lost' game; although a DOS game, it was
always fairly easy to get it running, either in Win9x directly or
later through DOSBox on NT-era machines. But while it was technically
runnable, its engine and controls were increasingly dated. Designed
for 4:3 monitors and before mouse-look was common, the original feels
cramped and claustrophobic compared to modern titles.

There have been attempts to modernize the engine - DarkXL was one such
project; another attempted to port the game to the Unreal engine - but
they never gained much recognition. TheForceEngine
(https://theforceengine.github.io/) is the latest, and here's hoping
it has better longevity.

This iteration is off to a good start; I gave it a test run through a
couple of levels and it's running pretty well. The wide-screen mode is
very welcome, but not nearly so much as the smooth mouse control. Of
course, being able to pinpoint headshots from across the level by
dropping the mouse cursor on a stormtrooper's noggin does take some of
the challenge away from the game.

Although it's not yet implemented, "Outlaws" is expected to be
supported by this engine as well. TheForceEngine also has support for
mods too, so hopefully graphic enhancements aren't too far behind
either.

Anyway, seeing as DarkXL is nearly impossible to find, TheForceEngine
is probably the best way to play "Dark Forces" nowadays. If you've
been hankering to replay this old classic, give it a try.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:18:11 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>
>When it comes to mid-90s FPS games, "Doom" is undoubtedly the king...
>but "Dark Forces" always came a close second, as far as I was
>concerned. And as much as I love "Doom", "Dark Forces" is by far the
>more modern of the two games, with its more 'realistic' level design
>and story-based adventure hearkening to what "Half Life" would later
>standardize.
>
>"Dark Forces" was never a 'lost' game; although a DOS game, it was
>always fairly easy to get it running, either in Win9x directly or
>later through DOSBox on NT-era machines. But while it was technically
>runnable, its engine and controls were increasingly dated. Designed
>for 4:3 monitors and before mouse-look was common, the original feels
>cramped and claustrophobic compared to modern titles.
>
>There have been attempts to modernize the engine - DarkXL was one such
>project; another attempted to port the game to the Unreal engine - but
>they never gained much recognition. TheForceEngine
>(https://theforceengine.github.io/) is the latest, and here's hoping
>it has better longevity.
>
>This iteration is off to a good start; I gave it a test run through a
>couple of levels and it's running pretty well. The wide-screen mode is
>very welcome, but not nearly so much as the smooth mouse control. Of
>course, being able to pinpoint headshots from across the level by
>dropping the mouse cursor on a stormtrooper's noggin does take some of
>the challenge away from the game.
>
>Although it's not yet implemented, "Outlaws" is expected to be
>supported by this engine as well. TheForceEngine also has support for
>mods too, so hopefully graphic enhancements aren't too far behind
>either.
>
>Anyway, seeing as DarkXL is nearly impossible to find, TheForceEngine
>is probably the best way to play "Dark Forces" nowadays. If you've
>been hankering to replay this old classic, give it a try.
>
Thank you. Always looking for new ways to play old games, and Dark Forces
was a good one.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 09:56:55 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:18:11 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
>Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>>There have been attempts to modernize the engine - DarkXL was one such
>>project; another attempted to port the game to the Unreal engine - but
>>they never gained much recognition. TheForceEngine
>>(https://theforceengine.github.io/) is the latest, and here's hoping
>>it has better longevity.

>Thank you. Always looking for new ways to play old games, and Dark Forces
>was a good one.

I think I had a bit more fun with DarkXL, if only because - if I'm
remembering correctly - it did a bit more with colored lighting, and
I'm a sucker for colored lighting effects. TheForceEngine is fairly
true to the original with regards to the rendering, so it doesn't look
quite as nice.

(OTOH, DarkXL didn't do wide-screen that I recall)

Of course, DarkXL is difficult to get ahold of and, in any case, is no
longer being developed. I've no idea if it even runs on modern
operating systems.

So it's cool to see another project keeping the dream alive.
Unfortunately, it is unclear if TheForceEngine is open-source or not
(the source code is available for download, but that doesn't
necessarily make it open source). Given how closely the code is based
on the original, the developer ("Lucius") might not be able to make it
open-source. Based on his blog-posts where he goes over the code of
the original game, the newer engine was in no way a clean-room
implementation. Disney nee LucasArts would therefore be within their
rights to shutdown the project at any time.

TL;DR: grab it sooner rather than later, because there's no promise
TheForceEngine won't go the same way as DarkXL in the future. ;-)

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in
news:u380bi9cral98ouq3gmdcsuq98na1b3ivs@4ax.com:

> This iteration is off to a good start; I gave it a test run through a
> couple of levels and it's running pretty well. The wide-screen mode is
> very welcome, but not nearly so much as the smooth mouse control. Of
> course, being able to pinpoint headshots from across the level by
> dropping the mouse cursor on a stormtrooper's noggin does take some of
> the challenge away from the game.
>
> Although it's not yet implemented, "Outlaws" is expected to be
> supported by this engine as well. TheForceEngine also has support for
> mods too, so hopefully graphic enhancements aren't too far behind
> either.
>

Thanks very much for this. Dark Forces and Outlaws were two of my favourite
games back in the 90s. I still have the boxes on my shelves. I also bought
them on Steam, trying to recapture the magic, but I never managed to get them
to run very well. TheForceEngine seems to run well and does the trick for me,

--
Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos -- the only sysadmins that matter

Mark P. Nelson <markpnelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:u380bi9cral98ouq3gmdcsuq98na1b3ivs@4ax.com:

> > This iteration is off to a good start; I gave it a test run through a
> > couple of levels and it's running pretty well. The wide-screen mode is
> > very welcome, but not nearly so much as the smooth mouse control. Of
> > course, being able to pinpoint headshots from across the level by
> > dropping the mouse cursor on a stormtrooper's noggin does take some of
> > the challenge away from the game.
> >
> > Although it's not yet implemented, "Outlaws" is expected to be
> > supported by this engine as well. TheForceEngine also has support for
> > mods too, so hopefully graphic enhancements aren't too far behind
> > either.
> >

> Thanks very much for this. Dark Forces and Outlaws were two of my favourite
> games back in the 90s. I still have the boxes on my shelves. I also bought
> them on Steam, trying to recapture the magic, but I never managed to get them
> to run very well. TheForceEngine seems to run well and does the trick for me,

Both were great games. I remember Outlaws' multiplayer too.
--
"Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need." --1 Timothy 5:3. Dang peeling skins on toes, fingers, and Eucalyptus trees. Also, Beatles' tunes.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
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On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 21:33:43 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>Mark P. Nelson <markpnelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:u380bi9cral98ouq3gmdcsuq98na1b3ivs@4ax.com:
>
>> > This iteration is off to a good start; I gave it a test run through a
>> > couple of levels and it's running pretty well. The wide-screen mode is
>> > very welcome, but not nearly so much as the smooth mouse control. Of
>> > course, being able to pinpoint headshots from across the level by
>> > dropping the mouse cursor on a stormtrooper's noggin does take some of
>> > the challenge away from the game.
>> >
>> > Although it's not yet implemented, "Outlaws" is expected to be
>> > supported by this engine as well. TheForceEngine also has support for
>> > mods too, so hopefully graphic enhancements aren't too far behind
>> > either.
>> >
>
>> Thanks very much for this. Dark Forces and Outlaws were two of my favourite
>> games back in the 90s. I still have the boxes on my shelves. I also bought
>> them on Steam, trying to recapture the magic, but I never managed to get them
>> to run very well. TheForceEngine seems to run well and does the trick for me,
>
>Both were great games. I remember Outlaws' multiplayer too.

Sadly, TheForceEngine doesn't yet run "Outlaws". It's a planned
feature, but not yet implemented. The GOG version of the game
fortunately runs well enough on modern operating systems, but I'm
eager to see the game running in wide-screen mode. And maybe get
updated with some visual flair.

That said, as much as I loved parts of "Outlaws", some its level
design was attrocious, incorporating the worst lessons from late-90s
FPS games. Too many of the levels (in particular, the canyons, the
mines and the sawmill) were attrociously maze-like. You'd scour the
map looking for a hard-to-see switch that would open a door on the
other side of the map. And then - after finally noticing the
difference and entering the new area - you'd have to repeat the
process again and again before coming to the end of the level.

The combat, the atmosphere, the controls, the visuals, the music (the
music!) were all excellently done... but that level design? Argh.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 21:33:43 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

> >Mark P. Nelson <markpnelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:u380bi9cral98ouq3gmdcsuq98na1b3ivs@4ax.com:
> >
> >> > This iteration is off to a good start; I gave it a test run through a
> >> > couple of levels and it's running pretty well. The wide-screen mode is
> >> > very welcome, but not nearly so much as the smooth mouse control. Of
> >> > course, being able to pinpoint headshots from across the level by
> >> > dropping the mouse cursor on a stormtrooper's noggin does take some of
> >> > the challenge away from the game.
> >> >
> >> > Although it's not yet implemented, "Outlaws" is expected to be
> >> > supported by this engine as well. TheForceEngine also has support for
> >> > mods too, so hopefully graphic enhancements aren't too far behind
> >> > either.
> >> >
> >
> >> Thanks very much for this. Dark Forces and Outlaws were two of my favourite
> >> games back in the 90s. I still have the boxes on my shelves. I also bought
> >> them on Steam, trying to recapture the magic, but I never managed to get them
> >> to run very well. TheForceEngine seems to run well and does the trick for me,
> >
> >Both were great games. I remember Outlaws' multiplayer too.

> Sadly, TheForceEngine doesn't yet run "Outlaws". It's a planned
> feature, but not yet implemented. The GOG version of the game
> fortunately runs well enough on modern operating systems, but I'm
> eager to see the game running in wide-screen mode. And maybe get
> updated with some visual flair.

> That said, as much as I loved parts of "Outlaws", some its level
> design was attrocious, incorporating the worst lessons from late-90s
> FPS games. Too many of the levels (in particular, the canyons, the
> mines and the sawmill) were attrociously maze-like. You'd scour the
> map looking for a hard-to-see switch that would open a door on the
> other side of the map. And then - after finally noticing the
> difference and entering the new area - you'd have to repeat the
> process again and again before coming to the end of the level.

> The combat, the atmosphere, the controls, the visuals, the music (the
> music!) were all excellently done... but that level design? Argh.

Someone needs to make a remake of it! Even a clone.
--
"The people served the Lord throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had seen all the great things the Lord had done for Israel." --Judges 2:7. Dang peeling skins, poops, bodies, heat, bodies, humans, rodents, z, etc.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:18:11 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>There have been attempts to modernize the engine - DarkXL was one such
>project; another attempted to port the game to the Unreal engine - but
>they never gained much recognition. TheForceEngine
>(https://theforceengine.github.io/) is the latest, and here's hoping
>it has better longevity.

Meanwhile, an official remaster has just been announced: "Dark Forces
Remaster" (see the trailer here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b9TTurkH4c)and as excited as the
unofficial ForceEngine remake made me, this one just makes me
depressed.

Partly because I know this is going to doom all the unofficial
remakes, because those are now competing with an official product.
We'll see how quick the publishers are to 'Fox'* the fan-projects lest
they cannibalize sales of their Remaster. There was a lot of love and
effort put into those fan-projects, and it's all going to have to be
abandoned just to leech some more money from our wallets. You can bet
that owners of the original game aren't getting the Remaster for free.

Worse, the fan-remakes were helping to ensure that Dark Forces would
remain a viable game not only for the current generation of gamers,
but for future gamers too. I doubt that we'll see ports of the
official remaster to x128 chips or Winux 2045 or whatever OS/hardware
we're using twenty years down the line. But with fan-projects? It's
well within the realms of possibility.

More, the ForceEngine remake actually looks BETTER than NightDive's
official remaster. Nightdive is once again using their KEX engine and
redoing all the models and textures, and - by doing so - the game has
lost a lot of its grungy look. The fan-mods look a lot more colorful
too.

Finally, I have a continuing issue with publishers constantly pushing
out remakes. It's one thing if fans do it; it's a love-letter to old
games. But publishers are callously commercializing our nostalgia, and
I'd much rather their resources be put to actually creating something
new.

Well, I hope the ForceEngine team keeps working on their port up and
until they get the inevitable cease-and-desist arrives in their
post-box, adding as many new features and patching out as many bugs as
they can in the limited time they have left. Because I'd much rather
play their remake than buy a game I've paid for four times already.

* sing out if you remember the origin of this obscure term

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:18:11 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

> >There have been attempts to modernize the engine - DarkXL was one such
> >project; another attempted to port the game to the Unreal engine - but
> >they never gained much recognition. TheForceEngine
> >(https://theforceengine.github.io/) is the latest, and here's hoping
> >it has better longevity.

> Meanwhile, an official remaster has just been announced: "Dark Forces
> Remaster" (see the trailer here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b9TTurkH4c)and as excited as the
> unofficial ForceEngine remake made me, this one just makes me
> depressed.

> Partly because I know this is going to doom all the unofficial
> remakes, because those are now competing with an official product.
> We'll see how quick the publishers are to 'Fox'* the fan-projects lest
> they cannibalize sales of their Remaster. There was a lot of love and
> effort put into those fan-projects, and it's all going to have to be
> abandoned just to leech some more money from our wallets. You can bet
> that owners of the original game aren't getting the Remaster for free.

> Worse, the fan-remakes were helping to ensure that Dark Forces would
> remain a viable game not only for the current generation of gamers,
> but for future gamers too. I doubt that we'll see ports of the
> official remaster to x128 chips or Winux 2045 or whatever OS/hardware
> we're using twenty years down the line. But with fan-projects? It's
> well within the realms of possibility.

> More, the ForceEngine remake actually looks BETTER than NightDive's
> official remaster. Nightdive is once again using their KEX engine and
> redoing all the models and textures, and - by doing so - the game has
> lost a lot of its grungy look. The fan-mods look a lot more colorful
> too.

> Finally, I have a continuing issue with publishers constantly pushing
> out remakes. It's one thing if fans do it; it's a love-letter to old
> games. But publishers are callously commercializing our nostalgia, and
> I'd much rather their resources be put to actually creating something
> new.

> Well, I hope the ForceEngine team keeps working on their port up and
> until they get the inevitable cease-and-desist arrives in their
> post-box, adding as many new features and patching out as many bugs as
> they can in the limited time they have left. Because I'd much rather
> play their remake than buy a game I've paid for four times already.

> * sing out if you remember the origin of this obscure term

Fans' remakes looked better especially in the newer Unreal engine.
--
"Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.'" --Mark 9:30-31. Bug bites, heat, power outages, clocks, etc. D: Star Wars' Ahsoka, Rebels, loth-cats, etc. :D
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
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( )

Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
....
> Fans' remakes looked better especially in the newer Unreal engine.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJwWkj6Ml4yzFO47LVoFNJMy-yCInvYdZ for that one.
--
"Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, 'The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise.'" --Mark 9:30-31. Bug bites, heat, power outages, clocks, etc. D: Star Wars' Ahsoka, Rebels, loth-cats, etc. :D
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 19:29:29 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 12:18:11 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>There have been attempts to modernize the engine - DarkXL was one such
>>project; another attempted to port the game to the Unreal engine - but
>>they never gained much recognition. TheForceEngine
>>(https://theforceengine.github.io/) is the latest, and here's hoping
>>it has better longevity.
>
>Meanwhile, an official remaster has just been announced: "Dark Forces
>Remaster" (see the trailer here:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b9TTurkH4c)and as excited as the
>unofficial ForceEngine remake made me, this one just makes me
>depressed.
>
>Partly because I know this is going to doom all the unofficial
>remakes, because those are now competing with an official product.
>We'll see how quick the publishers are to 'Fox'* the fan-projects lest
>they cannibalize sales of their Remaster. There was a lot of love and
>effort put into those fan-projects, and it's all going to have to be
>abandoned just to leech some more money from our wallets. You can bet
>that owners of the original game aren't getting the Remaster for free.
>
>Worse, the fan-remakes were helping to ensure that Dark Forces would
>remain a viable game not only for the current generation of gamers,
>but for future gamers too. I doubt that we'll see ports of the
>official remaster to x128 chips or Winux 2045 or whatever OS/hardware
>we're using twenty years down the line. But with fan-projects? It's
>well within the realms of possibility.
>
>More, the ForceEngine remake actually looks BETTER than NightDive's
>official remaster. Nightdive is once again using their KEX engine and
>redoing all the models and textures, and - by doing so - the game has
>lost a lot of its grungy look. The fan-mods look a lot more colorful
>too.
>
>Finally, I have a continuing issue with publishers constantly pushing
>out remakes. It's one thing if fans do it; it's a love-letter to old
>games. But publishers are callously commercializing our nostalgia, and
>I'd much rather their resources be put to actually creating something
>new.
>
>Well, I hope the ForceEngine team keeps working on their port up and
>until they get the inevitable cease-and-desist arrives in their
>post-box, adding as many new features and patching out as many bugs as
>they can in the limited time they have left. Because I'd much rather
>play their remake than buy a game I've paid for four times already.
>
What the hell does "pre-alpha" mean? Is it in the zygote development
stage? That's not a thing.

I will keep downloading ForceEngine updates until Nightdive releases
something, if they even have the rights rn in the first place. At the
rate of the System Shock reboot, that'll be 7 years from now.

Nightdive is really pissing me off. They are the worst at hyped-up
marketing capitalizing on nostalgia with poor follow-through on
deliverables.*

This reads to me as highly speculative marketing, not indicative of a
product or even a rights agreement.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

*System Shock remake Kickstarter is pretty good, btw. But boy was
development a mess and it was delivered nearly half a decade late. I
think it was all luck.