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computers / news.software.nntp / Re: Historical statistics on USENET

SubjectAuthor
* Historical statistics on USENETAioe
+- Re: Historical statistics on USENETThe Doctor
+- Re: Historical statistics on USENETFrank Slootweg
+- Re: Historical statistics on USENETRuss Allbery
+* Re: Historical statistics on USENETJulien ÉLIE
|+* Re: Historical statistics on USENETyamo'
||`- Re: Historical statistics on USENETThe Mover
|`* Re: Historical statistics on USENETAlbert E.
| `- Re: Historical statistics on USENETLaLibreParole
+* Re: Historical statistics on USENETSamuel Christie
|+* Re: Historical statistics on USENETRuss Allbery
||`* Re: Historical statistics on USENETSamuel Christie
|| `* Re: Historical statistics on USENETRuss Allbery
||  `* Re: Historical statistics on USENETAdam H. Kerman
||   `* Re: Historical statistics on USENETRuss Allbery
||    +* Re: Historical statistics on USENETAdam H. Kerman
||    |`- Re: Historical statistics on USENETFrank Slootweg
||    `* Re: Historical statistics on USENETFrank Slootweg
||     `* Re: Historical statistics on USENETMarc SCHAEFER
||      `* Re: Historical statistics on USENETEric M
||       +- Re: Historical statistics on USENETMarc SCHAEFER
||       `* Re: Historical statistics on USENETFrank Slootweg
||        +* Re: Historical statistics on USENETJulien ÉLIE
||        |+- Re: Historical statistics on USENETEric M
||        |`- Re: Historical statistics on USENETFrank Slootweg
||        `- Re: Historical statistics on USENETEric M
|`- Re: Historical statistics on USENETThe Doctor
+- Re: Historical statistics on USENETyamo'
`- Re: Historical statistics on USENETJesse Rehmer

Pages:12
Historical statistics on USENET

<ti8qr3$1gco$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=1275&group=news.software.nntp#1275

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!rft0yuHRqJxA8pEInl9ezw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: est...@aioe.org (Aioe)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:55:30 +0200
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <ti8qr3$1gco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
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User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
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 by: Aioe - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 10:55 UTC

Since 2018 aioe.org has been collecting some statistics on the messages
it receives. Since I have some time today, I have drawn some statistical
tables from the data collected in the last years.

1. Total flow of USENET articles

Graphs:

https://news.aioe.org/stats/articles-per-month.png
https://news.aioe.org/stats/size-per-month.png
https://news.aioe.org/stats/average-size-per-article.png

Data:

---------------------------------------
Month Articles Size S/A
---------------------------------------
201801 516165 1528066657 2960.42
201802 569507 1641615365 2882.52
201803 603170 1779372952 2950.04
201804 563858 1696914554 3009.47
201805 574950 1786902973 3107.93
201806 549196 1747158730 3181.30
201807 540056 1725930685 3195.84
201808 545841 1874784212 3434.67
201809 529333 1760587497 3326.05
201810 546394 1774182470 3247.08
201811 523604 1708987648 3263.89
201812 500670 1730881612 3457.13
201901 519762 1816210166 3494.31
201902 459297 1650824080 3594.24
201903 498619 1745844892 3501.36
201904 475712 1608849607 3381.98
201905 473313 1602779692 3386.30
201906 450216 1518701994 3373.27
201907 467221 1489700085 3188.43
201908 459270 1456381112 3171.08
201909 444713 1417046743 3186.43
201910 474349 1470276828 3099.57
201911 445345 1406771280 3158.83
201912 451423 1466206181 3247.97
202001 463836 1485718196 3203.11
202002 433064 1389431282 3208.37
202003 516791 1676330813 3243.73
202004 544032 1748260929 3213.53
202005 506642 1627524368 3212.38
202006 476675 1578878719 3312.28
202007 469084 1543609844 3290.69
202008 442891 1595404693 3602.25
202009 422546 1376539187 3257.73
202010 448080 1429156143 3189.51
202011 425184 1429238456 3361.46
202012 421665 1418422474 3363.86
202101 456679 1511930929 3310.71
202102 390927 1349527556 3452.12
202103 439245 1406307119 3201.65
202104 395300 1425231060 3605.44
202105 389237 1391094233 3573.90
202106 341375 1208150478 3539.07
202107 383516 1413259877 3685.01
202108 413179 1588414592 3844.37
202109 388536 1478182789 3804.49
202110 398714 1660914517 4165.68
202111 391231 1580272681 4039.23
202112 396216 1625420477 4102.36
202201 439076 1730166197 3940.47
202202 391350 1606238315 4104.35
202203 392103 1538139348 3922.79
202204 366150 1394803833 3809.38
202205 365393 1431508582 3917.72
202206 329316 1331526913 4043.31
202207 348577 1404367608 4028.86
202208 342680 1357939885 3962.71
202209 335011 1353244646 4039.40
202210 137223 554745663 4042.66
---------------------------------------

Does anyone know why the average size of messages has increased over the
past four years?

2. Articles per hieararchy

---------------------------------------
Hier 2020 2021 2022
---------------------------------------
alt 1678237 1564919 1301927
free 507317 520566 398799
rec 559160 501256 386500
it 594824 461850 316256
de 460373 391625 310669
uk 415699 316295 219907cd Docxu
fr 288114 304424 226141
soc 224013 206442 130071
sci 206463 183227 132215
linux 197562 174952 131515
comp 170513 158840 117025
talk 127844 156017 131994
pl 161475 125311 92602
nl 112816 94162 62869
Other 712458 656459 422741
---------------------------------------

3. Articles per posting server (since 1/1/2022)

Graphs:

https://news.aioe.org/stats/articles-per-origin.png

Data:

------------------------------
Server Arts
------------------------------
googlegroups.com 780005
eternal-september.org 562436
aioe.org 319034
highwinds-media.com 316969
individual.net 229141
nic.it 126302
xlned.com 121143
xsnews.nl 79924
giganews.com 74333
edu.pl 69433
neostrada.pl 60517
bofh.team 38125
free.fr 35501
abavia.com 34551
pasdenom.info 34346
solani.org 31792
freedyn.de 27445
usenetsys.com 27095
demos.su 25185
fcku.it 23006
Other 430596
------------------------------

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

<ti8uf7$2phb$88@gallifrey.nk.ca>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=1276&group=news.software.nntp#1276

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From: doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:57:27 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: NetKnow News
Message-ID: <ti8uf7$2phb$88@gallifrey.nk.ca>
References: <ti8qr3$1gco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:57:27 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: gallifrey.nk.ca; posting-host="doctor.nl2k.ab.ca:204.209.81.1";
logging-data="91691"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@gallifrey.nk.ca"
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
Originator: doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
 by: The Doctor - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 11:57 UTC

In article <ti8qr3$1gco$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Aioe <estasi@aioe.org> wrote:
>Since 2018 aioe.org has been collecting some statistics on the messages
>it receives. Since I have some time today, I have drawn some statistical
>tables from the data collected in the last years.
>
>1. Total flow of USENET articles
>
>Graphs:
>
>https://news.aioe.org/stats/articles-per-month.png
>https://news.aioe.org/stats/size-per-month.png
>https://news.aioe.org/stats/average-size-per-article.png
>
>Data:
>
>---------------------------------------
>Month Articles Size S/A
>---------------------------------------
>201801 516165 1528066657 2960.42
>201802 569507 1641615365 2882.52
>201803 603170 1779372952 2950.04
>201804 563858 1696914554 3009.47
>201805 574950 1786902973 3107.93
>201806 549196 1747158730 3181.30
>201807 540056 1725930685 3195.84
>201808 545841 1874784212 3434.67
>201809 529333 1760587497 3326.05
>201810 546394 1774182470 3247.08
>201811 523604 1708987648 3263.89
>201812 500670 1730881612 3457.13
>201901 519762 1816210166 3494.31
>201902 459297 1650824080 3594.24
>201903 498619 1745844892 3501.36
>201904 475712 1608849607 3381.98
>201905 473313 1602779692 3386.30
>201906 450216 1518701994 3373.27
>201907 467221 1489700085 3188.43
>201908 459270 1456381112 3171.08
>201909 444713 1417046743 3186.43
>201910 474349 1470276828 3099.57
>201911 445345 1406771280 3158.83
>201912 451423 1466206181 3247.97
>202001 463836 1485718196 3203.11
>202002 433064 1389431282 3208.37
>202003 516791 1676330813 3243.73
>202004 544032 1748260929 3213.53
>202005 506642 1627524368 3212.38
>202006 476675 1578878719 3312.28
>202007 469084 1543609844 3290.69
>202008 442891 1595404693 3602.25
>202009 422546 1376539187 3257.73
>202010 448080 1429156143 3189.51
>202011 425184 1429238456 3361.46
>202012 421665 1418422474 3363.86
>202101 456679 1511930929 3310.71
>202102 390927 1349527556 3452.12
>202103 439245 1406307119 3201.65
>202104 395300 1425231060 3605.44
>202105 389237 1391094233 3573.90
>202106 341375 1208150478 3539.07
>202107 383516 1413259877 3685.01
>202108 413179 1588414592 3844.37
>202109 388536 1478182789 3804.49
>202110 398714 1660914517 4165.68
>202111 391231 1580272681 4039.23
>202112 396216 1625420477 4102.36
>202201 439076 1730166197 3940.47
>202202 391350 1606238315 4104.35
>202203 392103 1538139348 3922.79
>202204 366150 1394803833 3809.38
>202205 365393 1431508582 3917.72
>202206 329316 1331526913 4043.31
>202207 348577 1404367608 4028.86
>202208 342680 1357939885 3962.71
>202209 335011 1353244646 4039.40
>202210 137223 554745663 4042.66
>---------------------------------------
>
>Does anyone know why the average size of messages has increased over the
>past four years?
>
>2. Articles per hieararchy
>
>---------------------------------------
>Hier 2020 2021 2022
>---------------------------------------
>alt 1678237 1564919 1301927
>free 507317 520566 398799
>rec 559160 501256 386500
>it 594824 461850 316256
>de 460373 391625 310669
>uk 415699 316295 219907cd Docxu
>fr 288114 304424 226141
>soc 224013 206442 130071
>sci 206463 183227 132215
>linux 197562 174952 131515
>comp 170513 158840 117025
>talk 127844 156017 131994
>pl 161475 125311 92602
>nl 112816 94162 62869
>Other 712458 656459 422741
>---------------------------------------
>
>
>3. Articles per posting server (since 1/1/2022)
>
>
>Graphs:
>
>https://news.aioe.org/stats/articles-per-origin.png
>
>Data:
>
>------------------------------
>Server Arts
>------------------------------
>googlegroups.com 780005
>eternal-september.org 562436
>aioe.org 319034
>highwinds-media.com 316969
>individual.net 229141
>nic.it 126302
>xlned.com 121143
>xsnews.nl 79924
>giganews.com 74333
>edu.pl 69433
>neostrada.pl 60517
>bofh.team 38125
>free.fr 35501
>abavia.com 34551
>pasdenom.info 34346
>solani.org 31792
>freedyn.de 27445
>usenetsys.com 27095
>demos.su 25185
>fcku.it 23006
>Other 430596
>------------------------------
>

Al lteast I am under other!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
Why are so many happy only when controlling others? -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

<ti97ks.85s.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.servidellagleba.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: 13 Oct 2022 12:34:15 GMT
Organization: NOYB
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <ti97ks.85s.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
References: <ti8qr3$1gco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
X-Trace: individual.net C/m/77n1AfCmMo0GkE/B+gAyZz1z9KqGdvu+FbVkYKSmKmnNMe
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 12:34 UTC

Aioe <estasi@aioe.org> wrote:
> Since 2018 aioe.org has been collecting some statistics on the messages
> it receives. Since I have some time today, I have drawn some statistical
> tables from the data collected in the last years.
>
> 1. Total flow of USENET articles
>
> Graphs:
>
> https://news.aioe.org/stats/articles-per-month.png
> https://news.aioe.org/stats/size-per-month.png
> https://news.aioe.org/stats/average-size-per-article.png
>
> Data:
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Month Articles Size S/A
> ---------------------------------------
[...]
>
> Does anyone know why the average size of messages has increased over the
> past four years?

In my view - based on the (limited number of) groups I follow -, it's
probably mainly caused by people not - or hardly - snipping quotes,
especially not in long threads with increasingly longer posts.

(Not) Snipping is a debatable issue.

I often complain about people dishonestly silently snipping (quotes
of) *relevant* previous text, i.e. pretending/implying those arguments
were never made. That's very bad and devious practice.

But not snipping irrelevant - or no longer releant - quotes is also a
bad practice.

[...]

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

<871qrbwznf.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 07:45:24 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <871qrbwznf.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <ti8qr3$1gco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
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 by: Russ Allbery - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:45 UTC

Aioe <estasi@aioe.org> writes:

> Does anyone know why the average size of messages has increased over the
> past four years?

Increased frequency of messages in multipart/alternative, maybe? They
tend to be significantly larger.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

<ti9j0j$166o7$1@news.trigofacile.com>

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 19:48:03 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <ti9j0j$166o7$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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In-Reply-To: <ti8qr3$1gco$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 17:48 UTC

Hi Paolo,

> Since 2018 aioe.org has been collecting some statistics on the messages
> it receives. Since I have some time today, I have drawn some statistical
> tables from the data collected in the last years.

Very interesting, thanks for them!

> 1. Total flow of USENET articles

Though the number of articles decreases, I hope the number of trolls
also decreases and therefore the quality of discussions improves :-)

> ------------------------------
> Server             Arts
> ------------------------------
> googlegroups.com     780005
> eternal-september.org    562436
> aioe.org        319034

Congrats to be in the top 3!
Many thanks for providing your free service!

> free.fr             35501
> pasdenom.info         34346

Soon the first French news server Stéphane :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Définition du romantisme : c'est les fleurs avant la tige. » (Philippe
Bouvard)

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

<87r0zba8sw.fsf@sdf.org>

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From: shc...@sdf.org (Samuel Christie)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:16:15 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <87r0zba8sw.fsf@sdf.org>
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 by: Samuel Christie - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:16 UTC

Fascinating.

I wonder if it's because the traffic volume is decreasing, so the spam
is a higher percentage? (since real articles are mostly short, but spam
is often pages)

Also interesting / sad to see the number of articles decline steadily
over that time-frame. People getting old and leaving? Competition from
other forums like Reddit? Groups slowly falling below some threshhold of
utility, so they lose users, who then reduce participation in other
groups in a downward spiral?

I'm also curious if the reason fewer people use Usenet anymore is partly
because it's hard to figure out how to access it. Not many places offer
connections, and it wasn't easy for me to find Aioe to connect (thanks
for the service btw!).

On a slight tangent: how much storage + bandwidth does running Aioe as
an open server consume? From your graphs it looks like <2GB/mo; does
that mean with a 4mo retention you only need 8GB of storage? How much
does being publicly accessible increase your bandwidth usage?

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

<87o7uf774u.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 14:20:33 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87o7uf774u.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:20 UTC

Samuel Christie <shcv@sdf.org> writes:

> I'm also curious if the reason fewer people use Usenet anymore is partly
> because it's hard to figure out how to access it.

I think one should assume that the reason why fewer people use Usenet is
the lack of moderation primarily. There are certainly other reasons, but
people are pretty used to *some* sort of moderation these days, whether
the old-school version that actually removes posts (common on a lot of
message boards and things like Discord) or the more sophisticated social
networking downvote algorithm stuff that goes all the way back to Slashdot
and that you see on Reddit, Twitter, etc. that mostly doesn't delete
things but dynamically adjusts what you see based on other people's
opinions of its quality.

Usenet has local killfiles, which are kind of annoying to use and
trivially easy to bypass, and it has full-blown moderated groups, which
are a giant pile of weird hacks and have always been difficult to make go.
There have been various attempts to build more sophisticated moderation
systems on top of Usenet (like Reddit-style voting systems), but Usenet is
kind of a poor platform for that stuff. It's way easier to build that
stuff into a web forum, which people are more used to these days anyway.

I think Usenet therefore primarily appeals to people who either truly
don't want any moderation for philosophical reasons or whatever, and folks
like me who have been using Usenet for forever and keep going primarily
because it became a hobby. If you look at other truly unmoderated forums,
they also tend to have a fairly small number of users and have a great
deal of difficulty getting mindshare, particularly if they become popular
enough that people start trying to actively exploit the lack of
moderation.

The other really obvious thing that Usenet doesn't have is a well-known
mobile client. (I assume someone has written a mobile newsreader, but I
don't tend to hear about it much if so, so I don't think it has any
mindshare.) But that's a "simple matter of programming" (well, except for
the fact that Usenet is mostly plain text, which is very difficult to
display well on mobile screens) that probably would have happened if it
were more popular.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: shc...@sdf.org (Samuel Christie)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 17:54:08 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Samuel Christie - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 21:54 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> writes:

> Samuel Christie <shcv@sdf.org> writes:
>
>> I'm also curious if the reason fewer people use Usenet anymore is partly
>> because it's hard to figure out how to access it.
>
> I think one should assume that the reason why fewer people use Usenet is
> the lack of moderation primarily.

I wouldn't want to assume, but it's possible. Spam is annoying, and it
makes it hard to tell which newsgroups are actually active, and which
are merely spam. Or buries the real content if it's a small enough
percentage.

> There have been various attempts to build more sophisticated moderation
> systems on top of Usenet (like Reddit-style voting systems), but Usenet is
> kind of a poor platform for that stuff. It's way easier to build that
> stuff into a web forum, which people are more used to these days anyway.

Yes, the perennial "protocol vs platform" problem. It takes a lot of
work to get a decentralized group of people to adopt a new technology.
But at the same time, that shouldn't stop us from trying; if the new
feature is built in an unobtrusive parallel way (e.g., separate meta
groups that only contain votes), it should be possible for people to
organically adopt them.

> The other really obvious thing that Usenet doesn't have is a well-known
> mobile client.
> ...
> But that's a "simple matter of programming" (well, except for
> the fact that Usenet is mostly plain text, which is very difficult to
> display well on mobile screens) that probably would have happened if it
> were more popular.

Somewhat ironically perhaps, I think a major limitation for text Usenet
posts on mobile screens is that the hard line wrapping---intended to
make messages compatible with old narrow screens---is actually *too
wide* for mobile devices. Doing a simple test with your message, I found
my phone was indeed re-wrapping most of the lines. It may not be
impossible to intelligently re-wrap lines though, similar to how emacs'
"fill-paragraph" function works.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:05:18 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
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 by: Russ Allbery - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:05 UTC

Samuel Christie <shcv@sdf.org> writes:

> Somewhat ironically perhaps, I think a major limitation for text Usenet
> posts on mobile screens is that the hard line wrapping---intended to
> make messages compatible with old narrow screens---is actually *too
> wide* for mobile devices.

Yup, exactly.

> Doing a simple test with your message, I found my phone was indeed
> re-wrapping most of the lines. It may not be impossible to intelligently
> re-wrap lines though, similar to how emacs' "fill-paragraph" function
> works.

Right, you really need some help from the sender to flow text properly or
you will make mistakes because there just isn't enough information. I
have put a lot of effort into text to HTML conversion, which has a similar
problem, and it's a madhouse of heuristics and guesses even if all it has
to do is convert text that I personally have written.

format=flowed (RFC 2646) was intended to address this problem, but it
never caught on. I think my newsreader can generate it, but only with
some awkwardness in writing the message, which I have never bothered to
learn to live with.

This problem was "solved" in email by converting to HTML as the format for
email messages, which is now essentially universal in email except for us
grumpy old folks. Usenet is disproportionately grumpy old folks, so HTML
hasn't caught on here (and a lot of the older newsreaders don't support
generating it).

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:14:22 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: NetKnow News
Message-ID: <tia2ju$2r4e$66@gallifrey.nk.ca>
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 by: The Doctor - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:14 UTC

In article <87r0zba8sw.fsf@sdf.org>, Samuel Christie <shcv@sdf.org> wrote:
>Fascinating.
>
>I wonder if it's because the traffic volume is decreasing, so the spam
>is a higher percentage? (since real articles are mostly short, but spam
>is often pages)
>
>Also interesting / sad to see the number of articles decline steadily
>over that time-frame. People getting old and leaving? Competition from
>other forums like Reddit? Groups slowly falling below some threshhold of
>utility, so they lose users, who then reduce participation in other
>groups in a downward spiral?
>
>I'm also curious if the reason fewer people use Usenet anymore is partly
>because it's hard to figure out how to access it. Not many places offer
>connections, and it wasn't easy for me to find Aioe to connect (thanks
>for the service btw!).
>
>On a slight tangent: how much storage + bandwidth does running Aioe as
>an open server consume? From your graphs it looks like <2GB/mo; does
>that mean with a 4mo retention you only need 8GB of storage? How much
>does being publicly accessible increase your bandwidth usage?

GG has a lot of spammers.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@nk.ca Ici doctor@nk.ca
Yahweh, King & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
Why are so many happy only when controlling others? -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:45 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:

>. . .

>format=flowed (RFC 2646) was intended to address this problem, but it
>never caught on. I think my newsreader can generate it, but only with
>some awkwardness in writing the message, which I have never bothered to
>learn to live with.

The standard isn't unreasonable. It's readily implmented with the root
article in a thread. There is not a single newsreader that I've tried
that makes it convenient to make sure that quoted text flows.

Plus the general failure to make sure that even with flowed text, long
lines aren't being sent (with the exception of long URLs that are
undesireable to break).

>This problem was "solved" in email by converting to HTML as the format for
>email messages, which is now essentially universal in email except for us
>grumpy old folks. Usenet is disproportionately grumpy old folks, so HTML
>hasn't caught on here (and a lot of the older newsreaders don't support
>generating it).

Why does converting to HTML come with adding in non-printing characters?

The real problem is that kids today cannot be convinced that plain text
is written in a text editor in a terminal window or terminal emulation.
What smart phone makes it straight forward to get to the terminal
window?

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:59:21 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
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 by: Russ Allbery - Thu, 13 Oct 2022 22:59 UTC

"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:

> The standard isn't unreasonable. It's readily implmented with the root
> article in a thread. There is not a single newsreader that I've tried
> that makes it convenient to make sure that quoted text flows.

Yeah, I think there was some design for how that was supposed to work, but
the problem is surprisingly tricky and the implementations never really
came together with good editing tools, etc.

> Why does converting to HTML come with adding in non-printing characters?

I dunno man the shit that people do with HTML has amazed me for 25 years.
I've written a bunch of HTML generators that convert other formats to HTML
or generate HTML directly and it's not that hard to make the HTML
basically readable, and yet, everyone decides to make it look like shit
and full of all sorts of useless garbage.

> The real problem is that kids today cannot be convinced that plain text
> is written in a text editor in a terminal window or terminal emulation.
> What smart phone makes it straight forward to get to the terminal
> window?

There are ssh apps and whatnot for the major phones (the phone OS itself
usually doesn't have a console or shell per se and the sandbox structure
makes such a thing not very meaningful or useful), but as mentioned
elsethread the phone screen is a truly awful size and configuration for 80
column text, which breaks a lot of assumptions about how most plain text
is written.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
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 by: yamo' - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 05:36 UTC

Hi Julien,
Julien ÉLIE a écrit :

>
>> free.fr             35501
>> pasdenom.info         34346

> Soon the first French news server Stéphane :-)

I'm very surprised!

Maybe it's an effect of the nemo* gateway?

--
Stéphane
* <http://news2.nemoweb.net/>

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 by: yamo' - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 07:02 UTC

Hi,

Aioe a tapoté le 13/10/2022 12:55:
> Since 2018 aioe.org has been collecting some statistics on the messages
> it receives. Since I have some time today, I have drawn some statistical
> tables from the data collected in the last years.

Thanks for your work!

--
Stéphane

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 by: Albert E. - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 10:41 UTC

Julien ÉLIE a formulé la demande :

>> 1. Total flow of USENET articles

> Though the number of articles decreases, I hope the number of trolls also
> decreases and therefore the quality of discussions improves :-)

do not forget that some robot has suppressed more than 4.000 posts, as well
as some unliked users...

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 by: Adam H. Kerman - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 11:36 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:

>. . .

>>The real problem is that kids today cannot be convinced that plain text
>>is written in a text editor in a terminal window or terminal emulation.
>>What smart phone makes it straight forward to get to the terminal
>>window?

>There are ssh apps and whatnot for the major phones (the phone OS itself
>usually doesn't have a console or shell per se and the sandbox structure
>makes such a thing not very meaningful or useful), but as mentioned
>elsethread the phone screen is a truly awful size and configuration for 80
>column text, which breaks a lot of assumptions about how most plain text
>is written.

Oh, they won't even use a terminal emulation if carrying around a laptop.

You're both right about the incnvenience of the phone screen.

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 17:34:36 -0000 (UTC)
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Message-ID: <tic6jb$2piq$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
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 by: Jesse Rehmer - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 17:34 UTC

On Oct 13, 2022 at 5:55:30 AM CDT, "Aioe" <estasi@aioe.org> wrote:

> Does anyone know why the average size of messages has increased over the
> past four years?

I'm guessing, but my assumption is larger headers and more generous use of
HTML formatting. I've noticed newer clients tend to add more headers and the
larger providers tend to tack on some of their own too.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: vrai.ou....@laposte.net (LaLibreParole)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 19:41:36 +0200
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 by: LaLibreParole - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 17:41 UTC

"Albert E." <AlbertE@laposte.net.invalid> composa la prose suivante:

>Julien ÉLIE a formulé la demande :
>
>
>>> 1. Total flow of USENET articles
>
>> Though the number of articles decreases, I hope the number of trolls also
>> decreases and therefore the quality of discussions improves :-)
>
>do not forget that some robot has suppressed more than 4.000 posts, as well
>as some unliked users...

You can say the name of the robot: "miakibot" from the "alphanet.ch" server.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: 14 Oct 2022 18:03:57 GMT
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:03 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
> "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
[...]

> > The real problem is that kids today cannot be convinced that plain text
> > is written in a text editor in a terminal window or terminal emulation.
> > What smart phone makes it straight forward to get to the terminal
> > window?
>
> There are ssh apps and whatnot for the major phones (the phone OS itself
> usually doesn't have a console or shell per se and the sandbox structure
> makes such a thing not very meaningful or useful), but as mentioned
> elsethread the phone screen is a truly awful size and configuration for 80
> column text, which breaks a lot of assumptions about how most plain text
> is written.

Smartphone screens and their aspect ratio are indeed not ideal for
etNews use. My 6.5" screen is too narrow in portrait mode. In landscape
mode it's perfectly OK to read articles, but when composing, the
keyboard would take away (too?) much of the viewing area.

That said, a news.software.readers regular has built trn under Termux
and seems reasonably happy with it.

Termux [1] is a Linux-like environment for Android, so one could build
other 'console' newsreader, such as slrn and tin. (I'm using tin, but not
on a smartphone.).

[1] 'Termux'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.termux>

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: 14 Oct 2022 18:07:04 GMT
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:07 UTC

Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
> >"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
>
> >. . .
>
> >>The real problem is that kids today cannot be convinced that plain text
> >>is written in a text editor in a terminal window or terminal emulation.
> >>What smart phone makes it straight forward to get to the terminal
> >>window?
>
> >There are ssh apps and whatnot for the major phones (the phone OS itself
> >usually doesn't have a console or shell per se and the sandbox structure
> >makes such a thing not very meaningful or useful), but as mentioned
> >elsethread the phone screen is a truly awful size and configuration for 80
> >column text, which breaks a lot of assumptions about how most plain text
> >is written.
>
> Oh, they won't even use a terminal emulation if carrying around a laptop.

I *heard* that! :-) (Guess what this computer is?)

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: schae...@alphanet.ch (Marc SCHAEFER)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 08:45:05 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Posted through news.alphanet.ch
Message-ID: <tidruh$7a6$1@shakotay.alphanet.ch>
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 by: Marc SCHAEFER - Sat, 15 Oct 2022 08:45 UTC

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Termux [1] is a Linux-like environment for Android, so one could build
> other 'console' newsreader, such as slrn and tin. (I'm using tin, but not
> on a smartphone.).

I use tin on termux on my Android smartphone, but through SSH, not
natively. I have also installed a Perl environment, and it works

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: conanosp...@gmail.com (Eric M)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Supersedes: <tiln8r$jcj$1@shakotay.alphanet.ch>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 08:15:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Eric M - Tue, 18 Oct 2022 08:15 UTC

Marc SCHAEFER a écrit le Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:45:05 dans news.software.nntp :

>> Termux [1] is a Linux-like environment for Android, so one could build
>> other 'console' newsreader, such as slrn and tin. (I'm using tin, but not
>> on a smartphone.).

> I use tin on termux on my Android smartphone, but through SSH, not
> natively. I have also installed a Perl environment, and it works

How can I install tin on termux on an Android smartphone natively ?
This would be great.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: schae...@alphanet.ch (Marc SCHAEFER)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:28:51 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Marc SCHAEFER - Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:28 UTC

Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
> How can I install tin on termux on an Android smartphone natively ?
> This would be great.

You need to either find a binary package for that architecture, or
(cross-)compile it yourself.

Ask me again in a few months by e-mail, I might have done it, then.

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: thi...@ddress.is.invalid (Frank Slootweg)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
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 by: Frank Slootweg - Tue, 18 Oct 2022 15:42 UTC

Eric M <conanospamic@gmail.com> wrote:
> Marc SCHAEFER a écrit le Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:45:05 dans news.software.nntp :
>
> >> Termux [1] is a Linux-like environment for Android, so one could build
> >> other 'console' newsreader, such as slrn and tin. (I'm using tin, but not
> >> on a smartphone.).
>
> > I use tin on termux on my Android smartphone, but through SSH, not
> > natively. I have also installed a Perl environment, and it works
>
> How can I install tin on termux on an Android smartphone natively ?
> This would be great.

As I mentioned, a news.software.readers regular has built trn under
Termux, so it's probably best to ask/cross-post in/to that group, as he
can probably provide some general Termux build advice.

The tin maintainer Urs Janßen also follows/monitors that group.

As I and Marc said, you probably have to build - i.e. make, compile,
link, etc. - it yourself.

I don't have any experience with Termux nor Android CPU-architectures,
but my phone says "aarch64" - which is the 64-bit extension of the ARM
architecture family (ARM64) [1] - and <http://tin.org/builds.html#Linux>
lists aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu as one of the 'Known successful builds'.
So I think it should be rather straightforward to build tin under
Termux.

FYI/FWIW, a long time ago I build a standalone version of tin for
Windows, using a few Cygwin libraries, but not the rest of Cygwin. It
was no big deal, but I had software development (in C) experience on
(real) UNIX, so YMMV/YMWV.

[1] 'AArch64'
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AArch64>

Re: Historical statistics on USENET

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Historical statistics on USENET
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 18:08:38 +0200
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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In-Reply-To: <timohr.e78.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Tue, 18 Oct 2022 16:08 UTC

Hi Frank,

> FYI/FWIW, a long time ago I build a standalone version of tin for
> Windows, using a few Cygwin libraries, but not the rest of Cygwin. It
> was no big deal, but I had software development (in C) experience on
> (real) UNIX, so YMMV/YMWV.

It should now be straight-forward to use tin in Windows. With WSL 2
(Windows Subsystem for Linux), one can download a Linux distribution
from the Microsoft Store and just install the tin package available in
that installed distribution.

wsl --install --distribution Ubuntu-22.04

will install Ubuntu 22.04 LTS for instance.

There are other distributions ready for WSL like Debian (stable
Bullseye), OpenSUSE, Fedora, Alpine, Pengwin, Kali, Arch Linux...

apt-get install tin inn2

and you'll normally have a fresh installation of tin and INN on Windows
without any difficulty. Then begins the configuration :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Cet homme qui est sorti du palais, nous renseignera peut-être sur la
façon d'y entrer. Suivons-le.
– Mais… Il sait sortir d'accord, mais rien ne prouve qu'il sache
entrer, et… » (Astérix)

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