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devel / comp.arch.embedded / Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

SubjectAuthor
* Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
|`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| | `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |   +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |   |`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |   | `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |   |  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |   |   `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |   |    `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |   |     `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |   |      `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |   |       `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |   |        `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |   |         `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |   |          `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |   |           `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| |   `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortAndrew Smallshaw
| |    `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| |     `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortAndrew Smallshaw
| |      +- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortAndrew Smallshaw
| |      `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
| `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDavid Brown
+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortTheo
|`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
| `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortTheo
|  +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
|  |`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|  | `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
|  |  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|  |   `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
|  +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortGrant Edwards
|  |+- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|  |`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
|  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|   +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortTheo
|   |+- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|   |`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
|   | +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
|   | |`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
|   | `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortTheo
|   `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortHerbert Kleebauer
|    `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|     `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDimiter_Popoff
|      `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|       +- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDimiter_Popoff
|       `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Portantispam
|        `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|         `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Portantispam
|          `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|           `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|            `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|             `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDimiter_Popoff
|              `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Portpozz
|`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|| +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|| |+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortTheo
|| ||`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|| |`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
|| | `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|| `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||   +- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||   `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortHans-Bernhard Bröker
||    +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortTheo
||    |+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||+- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortTheo
||    ||+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||    |||`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||| `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||    |||  +- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||    |||  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    |||   `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||    |||    `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    |||     `- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortPaul Rubin
||    ||`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    || `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||  +- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortGeorge Neuner
||    ||   +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   |+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortJim Jackson
||    ||   ||+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   |||+* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   ||||`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   |||| `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   ||||  +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   ||||  |`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   ||||  | `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   ||||  |  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   ||||  |   `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   ||||  |    +* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortJim Jackson
||    ||   ||||  |    |+- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   ||||  |    |`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   ||||  |    `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   ||||  `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDavid Brown
||    ||   |||`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   ||`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
||    ||   |`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    ||   `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortDon Y
||    |`- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortHans-Bernhard Bröker
||    `* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
|`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortHerbert Kleebauer
+- Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortRick C
`* Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 PortUwe Bonnes

Pages:1234567
Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

<tqfmsk$2eg02$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=1305&group=comp.arch.embedded#1305

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From: blockedo...@foo.invalid (Don Y)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:41:05 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Don Y - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 03:41 UTC

On 1/20/2023 8:14 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>> What is the use case for a programmable RS232-to-RS232 product? If
>> you can think of a use case, maybe you can find somebody who makes
>> such a thing.
>
> The search is not for an RS232-to-RS232 product per se, but for a small
> computer with two RS232 ports. In the Z80 era, those used to be
> plentiful. Of course they were considered full fledged personal
> computers, in large expensive boxes, given the technology of time.

A `7180 with some level-shifters would be a 3-chip solution "from the past".
But, you'd "program" it as a PROM, not some ASL.

> The lament is that there doesn't seem to be anything like that being
> made today with modern technology. Just a small box with a programmable
> microprocessor inside, and two RS232 ports. All the available products
> add a massive amount of additional complexity. It does seem like an
> opportunity.
>
> Imagining making something like that for myself makes me feel dismayed.
> Besides the MCU board and enclosure, you also need a bunch of mounting
> screws, standoffs, connectors, an enclosure made of sheet metal, tools
> to drill holes for the standoffs and make D-shaped cutouts for the DB9
> connectors, burn-in testing for everything, yada yada yada. All that
> stuff would have to be ordered from someplace, maybe multiple places.

More importantly, you'd have to CONSTRAIN yourself to ONLY putting
those two serial ports in the design. (Hmmm, should they support
modem control signals? hardware handshaking? flow control? what
if I want to connect it to something -- in the FUTURE -- that has one
of those needs, beyond Rd/Td?)

Should it be programmable as a masked part? Or, some sort of interpreted
language? What range of bit rates should it support? 134.5? 115.2K?

I mean, if you're going to all the trouble to design/build something,
wouldn't you want to make it as "universal" as possible? I.e., like
a VENDOR supplying a product to the largest possible market for a given
price point?

> Whenever I try to make anything physical, I invariably discover partway
> through that I need some 10 cent part that I didn't think of earlier, so
> I have to order that and wait N days for its arrival, then repeat this
> process several times. This is why custom made anything costs so much.

No, folks who make custom devices for a living already have those
items on hand. They likely use a particular set of components,
hardware, enclosures, etc. Because they don't want to have to
incur *extra* costs just to put it in a ROUND box (instead of square).

> It's not like programming where if I need some chunk of software, I can
> download it and have it a minute later.
>
> It doesn't seem like THAT outlandish a wish to hope that box described
> instead exists as an off the shelf product from somewhere. It is weird
> that it is so hard to find.

Why do you consider it weird? What use do folks have of EIA232 devices,
nowadays? Are they even commonplace on PCs? Or, have they gone the way
of the floppy disk, parallel port, PCMCIA slots, ISA bus, etc.? How
much longer before optical discs will be obsolete (instead of just
obsolescent)?

Other than the "fallback interface" on my UPSs (in case the ethernet
i/f is not functioning), I can't think of a use that merits my having a
"serial cable" on hand. (I think I have an old ICE that used a serial
port) Even my older printers only use SHORT parallel cables to connect
to 1/2/3-port print servers (do I have ANY parallel ports anymore?)!

[The Market weeds out items that it doesn't consider to be of practical use]

ISTM that the entry-level product would be something with an ethernet
(or BT) port and ____________. Like a 1/2/3/etc. port terminal server
to bridge that obsolescent technology (EIA232) to more modern comms.
"You mean you have to connect that device directly to the machine
that USES it???"

What can you do with JUST a pair of serial ports? (because of the
requirement for it to be "in a box" and, thus, a *complete* product,
with just those I/Os). And, if the number of use cases is small,
you're likely going to pay a lot for that "special" ability.

The last commercial product I designed with serial ports was almost
35 years ago. And, it's goal was to *monitor* serial data streams
and provide remote notification and access to those ports (internal,
chip-level 212A modem) when certain strings were detected.

Nowadays, EVERYTHING has a network port and secure comms.

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

<HJl*keV8y@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: 21 Jan 2023 10:53:29 +0000 (GMT)
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <HJl*keV8y@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
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Originator: theom@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([212.13.197.229])
 by: Theo - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 10:53 UTC

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> > What is the use case for a programmable RS232-to-RS232 product? If
> > you can think of a use case, maybe you can find somebody who makes
> > such a thing.
>
> The search is not for an RS232-to-RS232 product per se, but for a small
> computer with two RS232 ports. In the Z80 era, those used to be
> plentiful. Of course they were considered full fledged personal
> computers, in large expensive boxes, given the technology of time.
>
> The lament is that there doesn't seem to be anything like that being
> made today with modern technology. Just a small box with a programmable
> microprocessor inside, and two RS232 ports. All the available products
> add a massive amount of additional complexity. It does seem like an
> opportunity.

A 'small computer' these days is a PC or a Raspberry Pi. Something smaller
than that isn't a 'computer', it's an 'embedded microcontroller' - and those
are usually expressly designed not to be programmable. Which means we're
left with repurposing something else where they happened to leave a JTAG/etc
port exposed.

A PC or Pi would be the wrong tool for the job IMO - one day you're going to
turn the power on and find the storage is corrupted or failed and it won't
boot.

The suggestion of a PLC is a good one - that is a use case for a
microcontroller-level programmable device, if you can put up with the size.
The cheap Chinese PLCs might do the job (but Rick has vetoed that route).

> Imagining making something like that for myself makes me feel dismayed.
> Besides the MCU board and enclosure, you also need a bunch of mounting
> screws, standoffs, connectors, an enclosure made of sheet metal, tools
> to drill holes for the standoffs and make D-shaped cutouts for the DB9
> connectors, burn-in testing for everything, yada yada yada. All that
> stuff would have to be ordered from someplace, maybe multiple places.

I agree, it's a PITA. Particularly if your organisation is not set up for
hardware manufacturing: if you need 100 units of the thing you aren't just
going to solder them up and screw them together yourself, but contracting
that volume out is annoying.

Personally I would design for the enclosure. With the right enclosure, like
the one I linked to, it would be PCB assembly - which you could more easily
contract out - followed by clipping the enclosure around it. There would be
no need for standoffs, screws, drilling, anything. But still clipping 100
enclosures over boards and packaging them up might not be something your org
is set up to handle - eg if you're a strictly office setup and not designed
for packaging and shipping.

> It doesn't seem like THAT outlandish a wish to hope that box described
> instead exists as an off the shelf product from somewhere. It is weird
> that it is so hard to find.

I think it's just that RS232 (at least in the DB9 form, UARTs are still
everywhere) is increasingly legacy these days, so it's getting harder to
find DB9s on things that aren't intended to convert away from RS232. The
SCADA field is the only one I can think where microcontroller RS232 might
still be popular.

Theo

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: blockedo...@foo.invalid (Don Y)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 05:05:46 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Don Y - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 12:05 UTC

On 1/20/2023 8:41 PM, Don Y wrote:
> ISTM that the entry-level product would be something with an ethernet
> (or BT) port and ____________.  Like a 1/2/3/etc. port terminal server
> to bridge that obsolescent technology (EIA232) to more modern comms.
> "You mean you have to connect that device directly to the machine
> that USES it???"

I've one of these in my toy chest:

<https://www.zdnet.com/article/shrunken-linux-enter-the-cerfcube/>

Of course, $400 and 20 years ago is likely a non-starter!

(and, as one of the six faces is explicitly omitted, I wonder if
it qualifies as "boxed"?)

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

<tqhgcl$8v6$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: antis...@math.uni.wroc.pl
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 20:02:29 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: antis...@math.uni.wroc.pl - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 20:02 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:58:49 PM UTC-5, anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:
> > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-5, Dimiter wrote:
> > > > On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
> > > > >> On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
<snip>
> > > My experience with Alibaba is not the same as yours. With Ebay, I can dispute a sale and get a refund. Alibaba spent literally months demanding more and more things from me, many which made no sense because of the language barrier. In the end, they said I failed to prove the vendor was lying when he said he shipped the item listed. Photos were not good enough. They wanted a video for some reason. Alibaba simply does not support their customers, so I don't use them. Ebay is worth while, but some things sold are perpetually fake, or crap and you have to buy them to find out, then make the "return", which the vendor is required to pay for, so they often say keep it.
> > >
> > > I even bought crap wire on Ebay from a vendor relatively local. The actual wire gauge was about three numbers below the claimed AWG. Bought 20 gauge and got 23 gauge. Bought 18 gauge and got 21 gauge, etc. I was getting the refund, so I thought I'd try seeing how far this went. 16 gauge was actually 19 gauge and 12 gauge, was actually 15 gauge. The vendor could not say they didn't know, the wire insulation has *their* name on it! So it's a custom marked product. How could they not know they are selling mislabeled wire?
> > >
> > > Yeah, they all sell crap. I just find it possible to get a refund from Ebay. Alibaba, not so much.
> > >
> > IIUC Alibaba is intended for larger transactions and has different
<snip>
> No, they send something, just not anything of value. Aliexpress can't seem to understand the ICs which don't work, are counterfeit and you don't have to test every one on the reel to know they are all crap. The real issue was the language barrier. They don't speak English, rather use automated translators in both directions, so don't understand half of what you are saying. They also don't understand what an IC is and think counterfeit is only for handbags.

My impression was that verndors understood resonably well what I
wrote and answered sensibly. The things were probably too small to
really involve a person from Aliexpress, communication from
Aliexpress looked like canned text. So really no big problem with
Engish, but potentially could be different if matters got more
complicated (more value at stake and vendor contradicting my claims).

BTW: Aliexpress want very much to translate offers into my native
Polish. Compared to English text that they have translations into
Polish are really funny/misleading.

> > Most Aliexpress seller have resonably high volumes. They sell
> > what customers want to buy. It can not be completely non functional,
> > there are not enough fools to support this.
>
> LOL! If they buy counterfeit ICs at $0.05 each, they don't need to sell many at $5.00 to make profit.

In general, probably 1 in 100 customers makes comments dealing with
actual performance of given product. So after 100 sales, if thing is
non-functional you can expect bad opinion and after that more folks
looking at what they get and cascade of more bad opinions. Actually
if thing is completely non-functional I would expect complaints
much earlier. So maybe bad guy can collect few hundreds or maybe
some thousends dollars. If one could do such thing without a cost,
then surely, there would be a lot of folks doing this. But there
is probably some cost setting Aliexpress seller account and if
enetrprise is pure fraud, then Aliexpress is likely to take some
action (say via court or police).

My impression is that complete, pure fraud is not big problem.
Rather, problematic are goods that appear to work but are substandard
or have hidden defects.

> > The problem is
> > that most customers are unable or unwillig to fully examine
> > what they bought. So you get rechargable batteries with
> > completely bogus stated capacity or USB chargers with inflated
> > charging current. I bought a lot of things on Aliexpress
> > but I am trying to keep realistic expectations. I bought
> > few USB chargers knowing that stated current (2.1 A) is
> > much bigger than real one (0.85 A), but they were good enough
> > for my purpose. I bought resistors and small power transistors.
> > My reasoning was that making something that looks like resistor
> > or transistor in small/medium volume is probably more expensive
> > than real resistor/transistor in high volume. And hopefully
> > there are not enough fools to fund high volume manufacturing
> > of fake transistors.
>
> I don't think you understand. There are any number of things that look like the thing they are selling you, which will pass a visual inspection if you close one eye and have no idea what you are looking for. But they are fake. Even a $0.10 transistor has a lot of markup if they only pay $0.001 each for a reject. It might work well enough to light the LED on a transistor tester.

I was writing about basic transitors like 2N3904, BC237 and similar.
AFAICS $0.10 for such transistor is well above market price. Few
years ago 2N3904 from big American distributor was $0.0234 per piece when
you wanted 500. About 10 years ago reputable local distributor had
basic types for equivelent of $0.015 per piece in quantities of 100.
And BF493 was half of that. This distributor had a warehouse and
same day (if order was early enough in the day) or next day shipping.

Chinese seller had batches of 100, with prices of order $1 per batch,
that is $0.01 per transitor. I was a bit curious so I looked at
availability numbers. Apparently he started from 10000 and counter
went relatively fast down. And then restarted from 10000. So
he was selling milions of transitors (10000 times 100 is milion).
I also looked at Farnell. For similar type they had something like
35000 and counters were slowly changing. So Chinese guy had _much_
larger volume than Farnell and almost surely much lower operating cost.

At prices between $0.10 and $0.20 per piece I got few TO-220
powers MOSFETS. They were out of specs and probably rejects:
both Rds_on and junction capacitance was larger than it should
be, so this was not smaller MOSFET relabeled as bigger one.
I consider them good enough for undemanding uses in experimental
circuits. Certainly I would not allow them to get anywhere
near production (too much risk that they would end up in
critical circuits).

> > Well, I got resistors and resonably
> > performing transistors. I can not say if there are some hidden
> > troubles but to the moment I am satisfied with what I bought.
>
> Sure, if you only need crap components, then you are good to go!

If I had extreme requirements, then I would not use 2N3904 or
BC237. But they are good enough for most uses.
> > In the past I bought few STM chips from Chinese sellers.
> > AFAIK those chips were widely used in China, the unit price was
> > much lower than unit price from western distributors, but
> > significantly higher that supposed volume price. So it
> > looked resonable that Chinese seller could sell them at lower
> > margin and still make a profit. And up to now I had no
> > problem with those chips.
> >
> > OTOH if there is advanced/rare western part it would be strange
> > if Chinese seller had some magic cheap source of the part, so
> > I am very suspicious of such offers. Power mosfets were
> > borderline case. Around 2019 I bought packs of 10 from several
> > sellers. Essentially all were out of specs (too large Rds_on). If
> > there were moderate discrepancy I made comments stating real paramenter,
> > in few cases of really large discrepancy I requested partial
> > refund (and got it possibly after a dispute). To say the truth,
> > refunds that I got were probably not worth my time, I did this
> > mostly from feeling of moral duty, to make sure sellers know
> > that there is problem and to discourage them from selling such
> > bad parts.
> >
> > When buying on Aliexpress it is useful to read buyers comments.
> > Especially Russians tend to measure/test bought parts, so you
> > can have resonable idea what you are buying.
>
> I've never found any selling sites with good reviews. Many are made up from whole cloth. I recall when Ebay had some sort of rating system in both directions. There were vendors who would set up buyer accounts and buy things at a penny. Good reviews in both directions and credibility would increase.

There may be something like that at Aliexpress. But I meant actual
text of comments. It would take some effort to make up text that
is belivable and it is not clear what seller would gain. Aliexpress
allow you to view opinions corresponding to given rating, so you
can look up why people give bad rating (while good ratings frequently
came with no text, bad ones usually give some justification).


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
Injection-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 01:12:03 +0000
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 by: Rick C - Mon, 23 Jan 2023 01:12 UTC

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:02:34 PM UTC-5, anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:58:49 PM UTC-5, anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:
> > > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-5, Dimiter wrote:
> > > > > On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
> > > > > >> On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
> <snip>
> > > > My experience with Alibaba is not the same as yours. With Ebay, I can dispute a sale and get a refund. Alibaba spent literally months demanding more and more things from me, many which made no sense because of the language barrier. In the end, they said I failed to prove the vendor was lying when he said he shipped the item listed. Photos were not good enough. They wanted a video for some reason. Alibaba simply does not support their customers, so I don't use them. Ebay is worth while, but some things sold are perpetually fake, or crap and you have to buy them to find out, then make the "return", which the vendor is required to pay for, so they often say keep it.
> > > >
> > > > I even bought crap wire on Ebay from a vendor relatively local. The actual wire gauge was about three numbers below the claimed AWG. Bought 20 gauge and got 23 gauge. Bought 18 gauge and got 21 gauge, etc. I was getting the refund, so I thought I'd try seeing how far this went. 16 gauge was actually 19 gauge and 12 gauge, was actually 15 gauge. The vendor could not say they didn't know, the wire insulation has *their* name on it! So it's a custom marked product. How could they not know they are selling mislabeled wire?
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, they all sell crap. I just find it possible to get a refund from Ebay. Alibaba, not so much.
> > > >
> > > IIUC Alibaba is intended for larger transactions and has different
> <snip>
> > No, they send something, just not anything of value. Aliexpress can't seem to understand the ICs which don't work, are counterfeit and you don't have to test every one on the reel to know they are all crap. The real issue was the language barrier. They don't speak English, rather use automated translators in both directions, so don't understand half of what you are saying. They also don't understand what an IC is and think counterfeit is only for handbags.
> My impression was that verndors understood resonably well what I
> wrote and answered sensibly.

I didn't say anything about the vendors not understanding. I'm talking about the dispute process. It is very heavily weighted in favor of the seller and on top of that, they have no language barrier. I had to read their Chinese, which they suddenly started using for the dispute and Alibaba use the translator to communicate with me. Much of the problem I had, was because they were asking me for very silly things, some of which was a language issue, no doubt, but also the fact that they are set up for selling funny clocks, t-shirts and handbags, not technically oriented items.

> The things were probably too small to
> really involve a person from Aliexpress, communication from
> Aliexpress looked like canned text. So really no big problem with
> Engish, but potentially could be different if matters got more
> complicated (more value at stake and vendor contradicting my claims).
>
> BTW: Aliexpress want very much to translate offers into my native
> Polish. Compared to English text that they have translations into
> Polish are really funny/misleading.

Oh, yes! The want very much to do what it takes the close the deal, they just don't care if you get ripped off.

> > > Most Aliexpress seller have resonably high volumes. They sell
> > > what customers want to buy. It can not be completely non functional,
> > > there are not enough fools to support this.
> >
> > LOL! If they buy counterfeit ICs at $0.05 each, they don't need to sell many at $5.00 to make profit.
> In general, probably 1 in 100 customers makes comments dealing with
> actual performance of given product. So after 100 sales, if thing is
> non-functional you can expect bad opinion and after that more folks
> looking at what they get and cascade of more bad opinions.

Alibaba doesn't work that way.

> Actually
> if thing is completely non-functional I would expect complaints
> much earlier. So maybe bad guy can collect few hundreds or maybe
> some thousends dollars. If one could do such thing without a cost,
> then surely, there would be a lot of folks doing this. But there
> is probably some cost setting Aliexpress seller account and if
> enetrprise is pure fraud, then Aliexpress is likely to take some
> action (say via court or police).

Alibaba has virtually no effective rating system. What is there, is easily scammed by generating fake reviews and starting over with a new company name when you get bad reviews. Like Ebay in the early days. Ebay took the matter seriously, and stopping the vendors from being able to blacklist customers because the blue the whistle. I remember sellers threatening me to give good, or no reviews.

> My impression is that complete, pure fraud is not big problem.
> Rather, problematic are goods that appear to work but are substandard
> or have hidden defects.

Your impression is very wrong. "Hidden defects" such as being totally counterfeit, meaning likely some reject part in the same package, that's not even the same part number.

> > > The problem is
> > > that most customers are unable or unwillig to fully examine
> > > what they bought. So you get rechargable batteries with
> > > completely bogus stated capacity or USB chargers with inflated
> > > charging current. I bought a lot of things on Aliexpress
> > > but I am trying to keep realistic expectations. I bought
> > > few USB chargers knowing that stated current (2.1 A) is
> > > much bigger than real one (0.85 A), but they were good enough
> > > for my purpose. I bought resistors and small power transistors.
> > > My reasoning was that making something that looks like resistor
> > > or transistor in small/medium volume is probably more expensive
> > > than real resistor/transistor in high volume. And hopefully
> > > there are not enough fools to fund high volume manufacturing
> > > of fake transistors.
> >
> > I don't think you understand. There are any number of things that look like the thing they are selling you, which will pass a visual inspection if you close one eye and have no idea what you are looking for. But they are fake. Even a $0.10 transistor has a lot of markup if they only pay $0.001 each for a reject. It might work well enough to light the LED on a transistor tester.
> I was writing about basic transitors like 2N3904, BC237 and similar.
> AFAICS $0.10 for such transistor is well above market price.

Dear god! It was just a number to illustrate the idea. Pick you own numbers.

> Few
> years ago 2N3904 from big American distributor was $0.0234 per piece when
> you wanted 500. About 10 years ago reputable local distributor had
> basic types for equivelent of $0.015 per piece in quantities of 100.
> And BF493 was half of that. This distributor had a warehouse and
> same day (if order was early enough in the day) or next day shipping.
>
> Chinese seller had batches of 100, with prices of order $1 per batch,
> that is $0.01 per transitor. I was a bit curious so I looked at
> availability numbers. Apparently he started from 10000 and counter
> went relatively fast down. And then restarted from 10000. So
> he was selling milions of transitors (10000 times 100 is milion).
> I also looked at Farnell. For similar type they had something like
> 35000 and counters were slowly changing. So Chinese guy had _much_
> larger volume than Farnell and almost surely much lower operating cost.
>
> At prices between $0.10 and $0.20 per piece I got few TO-220
> powers MOSFETS. They were out of specs and probably rejects:
> both Rds_on and junction capacitance was larger than it should
> be, so this was not smaller MOSFET relabeled as bigger one.
> I consider them good enough for undemanding uses in experimental
> circuits. Certainly I would not allow them to get anywhere
> near production (too much risk that they would end up in
> critical circuits).

Ok, buy your transistors at Alibaba. Just don't buy anything that requires some real money.

> > > Well, I got resistors and resonably
> > > performing transistors. I can not say if there are some hidden
> > > troubles but to the moment I am satisfied with what I bought.
> >
> > Sure, if you only need crap components, then you are good to go!
> If I had extreme requirements, then I would not use 2N3904 or
> BC237. But they are good enough for most uses.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 3 Feb 2023 17:22 UTC

Crap! I posted about this in several forums and got nibbles from a few, including here. I stopped replying because the waters got more murky rather than more clear. So I wanted to wait until I had something more accurate to provide people. I am planning to reply to you too Paul Rubin. I just have some of my own stuff to deal with first.

Meanwhile, someone sent a reply by a means I don't recall. He specifically mentioned that he had designed a product in a similar enclosure to what I want. I think he even mentioned it being IP67. But durned if I can find it. EEVBLOG has the worst messaging facility. You get to see the messages coming to you, but not the messages you send. So no conversational context!

If this jogs anyone's memory, please contact me again.

--

Rick C.

+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 3 Feb 2023 18:04 UTC

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:22:55 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
> Crap! I posted about this in several forums and got nibbles from a few, including here. I stopped replying because the waters got more murky rather than more clear. So I wanted to wait until I had something more accurate to provide people. I am planning to reply to you too Paul Rubin. I just have some of my own stuff to deal with first.
>
> Meanwhile, someone sent a reply by a means I don't recall. He specifically mentioned that he had designed a product in a similar enclosure to what I want. I think he even mentioned it being IP67. But durned if I can find it.. EEVBLOG has the worst messaging facility. You get to see the messages coming to you, but not the messages you send. So no conversational context!
>
> If this jogs anyone's memory, please contact me again.

Nevermind. I found the email. I will be meeting with my brother this weekend to figure out how to proceed. Thanks for your interest.

--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Wed, 22 Mar 2023 19:18 UTC

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 11:24:33 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
> The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
>
> The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
>
> The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
>
> Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.

I was skimming the web for this again and I think I found something from Aaeon. Not sure why I didn't find this before. Maybe I did, but at that time was really looking for something with a simple CPU, rather than something to run a full OS. Beggars and choosers...

https://eshop.aaeon.com/ultra-slim-box-pc-boxer-6405.html

This one is $366, which is more than I'd like, but beggars... It is cheaper than the tailored unit a guy is working on for us. A sample unit doesn't work right and debugging across an ocean is not working very well. I could have this up and running in a day or something, as long as it comes with Linux installed.

They have a cheaper unit with a single serial port, $287.

https://eshop.aaeon.com/rockchip-android-system-boxer-rk88.html

Not sure if there is any real risk to sharing the serial port between the two devices. I know there's no handshaking. In fact, the Arduino shares a single serial port.

The only real problem is communications. Aaeon only has a couple each. So far, they have not responded to my requests for delivery on 20 units.

BTW, to those who contacted me about this and haven't heard back after the initial exchange, I'm sorry. I got busy with my own work and lost track of the emails. Of those who did reply, only one had a design in a box, ready for software. But that is not yet working.

--

Rick C.

+-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 20:35:06 -0700
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 by: Paul Rubin - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 03:35 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> BTW, to those who contacted me about this and haven't heard back after
> the initial exchange, I'm sorry. I got busy with my own work and lost
> track of the emails. Of those who did reply, only one had a design in
> a box, ready for software. But that is not yet working.

You still want someone to do this custom? What is your budget and how
many units do you want? Did you ever find out more about the
requirements? I know a good who is good at this stuff. You are
probably looking at $1000 or more of NRE, but spread across a few dozen
units it might not be too bad, as the hardware itself should be quite cheap.

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 06:26 UTC

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 11:35:18 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> > BTW, to those who contacted me about this and haven't heard back after
> > the initial exchange, I'm sorry. I got busy with my own work and lost
> > track of the emails. Of those who did reply, only one had a design in
> > a box, ready for software. But that is not yet working.
> You still want someone to do this custom? What is your budget and how
> many units do you want? Did you ever find out more about the
> requirements? I know a good who is good at this stuff. You are
> probably looking at $1000 or more of NRE, but spread across a few dozen
> units it might not be too bad, as the hardware itself should be quite cheap.

If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks. That is what I meant to say in the post, but I guess I glossed over that. I found a platform that is affordable, even if it is way overkill. A custom board design is not needed. Heck, a custom board design was never needed, except that RS-232 voltage levels are needed at the serial port I/Os. Otherwise, an Arduino of some variation, would be ideal.

I will just write the software myself with the $300 platform I guess. Being a PC type platform, running an OS, updating the software is just a matter of copying a file from an SD card or a USB memory stick. It could even be hooked up through the Ethernet port, although I'm not so familiar with that these days.

Years ago, I had a couple of desktop PCs running Win2k and from the info I found on the website World of Windows Networking, was able to connect them so the disk drives were available on either machine. I tried to do the same think a couple of years ago and it was much, much harder. Microsoft has made networking much more complex now.

I did manage to find my way through management speak and arrive at a very simple set of requirements. In fact, the problem with the guy we currently have working on the effort, is he added requirements of his own, that mess up the operation we intended. We might still use his solution, if he can get it to work for us. But he's in the UK and this is mucking up the debugging.

This device goes between a sensor, and an EDAS, which is just an industrial computer acting as an intermediary, collecting other data and sending it all on to other receivers of the data. A product update in the sensor (third party product) changed the data format. Before this new sensor was used, the translator was not needed. The translator makes the new sensor output compliant with the old sensor format which is expected downstream.

Serial formats are 9600, 8, N, 1. The input data is 1 line per second, output as soon as converted. A header is appended after each 20th input line. At these data rates, there will be no handshaking and no chance of any collisions.

New data format on incoming message example:
# 032023 174930 23.024 6.79 17.37 12.44
Terminated with /r/n

Old data format on output message example:
01/30/23 19:15:28 21.788 6.23 17.41 12.66
Terminated by /r/n

The modifications in the data are removing the "# " at the beginning and inserting '\' and ':' into the date and time fields.

Every 20 lines a header should be inserted and sent to the output. If something corrupts the line count, it's not a problem.

========================================== Date Time Temp SpCond pH ODO
m/d/y hh:mm:ss C mS/cm mg/L
-------------------------------------------
*** 1-LOG last sample 2-LOG ON/OFF, 3-Clean optics ***

Anything received that isn't in the input format specified above, should be sent on to the output. No other data should be sent to the output, such as boot messages. The only error checking should be that the line does not overflow the internal translator buffers. A watchdog timer could be used to reset the unit, if the software is lost in the weeds. The goal here is not for any data error checking, or other optimizations. If the old sensor produced any crap data, it didn't muck up the works before, and it shouldn't be a problem now, so just send it on.

I don't know for certain that the input data format is always the same length, so this should not be assumed. I would say an 80 character max length is a safe assumption. The /r/n should be the line delimiter. If garbage is received on the input before a message, it will prevent detection of the start of the message, which is fine. As soon as the next /r/n is received, it will be back in alignment. That's all that matters.

If I had more free time, I would have this done by now. lol

--

Rick C.

+-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 06:28 UTC

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 2:26:40 AM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 11:35:18 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> > Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > BTW, to those who contacted me about this and haven't heard back after
> > > the initial exchange, I'm sorry. I got busy with my own work and lost
> > > track of the emails. Of those who did reply, only one had a design in
> > > a box, ready for software. But that is not yet working.
> > You still want someone to do this custom? What is your budget and how
> > many units do you want? Did you ever find out more about the
> > requirements? I know a good who is good at this stuff. You are
> > probably looking at $1000 or more of NRE, but spread across a few dozen
> > units it might not be too bad, as the hardware itself should be quite cheap.
> If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks. That is what I meant to say in the post, but I guess I glossed over that. I found a platform that is affordable, even if it is way overkill. A custom board design is not needed. Heck, a custom board design was never needed, except that RS-232 voltage levels are needed at the serial port I/Os. Otherwise, an Arduino of some variation, would be ideal.
>
> I will just write the software myself with the $300 platform I guess. Being a PC type platform, running an OS, updating the software is just a matter of copying a file from an SD card or a USB memory stick. It could even be hooked up through the Ethernet port, although I'm not so familiar with that these days.
>
> Years ago, I had a couple of desktop PCs running Win2k and from the info I found on the website World of Windows Networking, was able to connect them so the disk drives were available on either machine. I tried to do the same think a couple of years ago and it was much, much harder. Microsoft has made networking much more complex now.
>
> I did manage to find my way through management speak and arrive at a very simple set of requirements. In fact, the problem with the guy we currently have working on the effort, is he added requirements of his own, that mess up the operation we intended. We might still use his solution, if he can get it to work for us. But he's in the UK and this is mucking up the debugging.
>
> This device goes between a sensor, and an EDAS, which is just an industrial computer acting as an intermediary, collecting other data and sending it all on to other receivers of the data. A product update in the sensor (third party product) changed the data format. Before this new sensor was used, the translator was not needed. The translator makes the new sensor output compliant with the old sensor format which is expected downstream.
>
> Serial formats are 9600, 8, N, 1. The input data is 1 line per second, output as soon as converted. A header is appended after each 20th input line. At these data rates, there will be no handshaking and no chance of any collisions.
>
> New data format on incoming message example:
> # 032023 174930 23.024 6.79 17.37 12.44
> Terminated with /r/n
>
> Old data format on output message example:
> 01/30/23 19:15:28 21.788 6.23 17.41 12.66
> Terminated by /r/n
>
> The modifications in the data are removing the "# " at the beginning and inserting '\' and ':' into the date and time fields.
>
> Every 20 lines a header should be inserted and sent to the output. If something corrupts the line count, it's not a problem.
>
> ===========================================
> Date Time Temp SpCond pH ODO
> m/d/y hh:mm:ss C mS/cm mg/L
> -------------------------------------------
> *** 1-LOG last sample 2-LOG ON/OFF, 3-Clean optics ***
>
> Anything received that isn't in the input format specified above, should be sent on to the output. No other data should be sent to the output, such as boot messages. The only error checking should be that the line does not overflow the internal translator buffers. A watchdog timer could be used to reset the unit, if the software is lost in the weeds. The goal here is not for any data error checking, or other optimizations. If the old sensor produced any crap data, it didn't muck up the works before, and it shouldn't be a problem now, so just send it on.
>
> I don't know for certain that the input data format is always the same length, so this should not be assumed. I would say an 80 character max length is a safe assumption. The /r/n should be the line delimiter. If garbage is received on the input before a message, it will prevent detection of the start of the message, which is fine. As soon as the next /r/n is received, it will be back in alignment. That's all that matters.
>
> If I had more free time, I would have this done by now. lol

The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20 in a few months. After that, not sure.

--

Rick C.

++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: 23 Mar 2023 10:06:38 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Theo - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 10:06 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20 in a
> few months. After that, not sure.

We've been here before, but there are many many 'mini PCs' (often Celeron or
similar low power CPU) coming out of China that have multiple RS232 ports.
There doesn't seem to be much special about this one.

If such a 'mini PC' is within your spec (you were talking about
microcontrollers originally), it's just a case of finding a distributor who
meets your requirements. Easiest is to just go on Aliexpress [1] and buy
them, but if that's not your thing then I'm sure there is a US/wherever
importer.

If you're going to need many years worth of supply that's a bit trickier,
since they tend to update the product lines every time Intel releases a new
chip.

Theo

[1] https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-mini-pc-rs232.html

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 08:54:49 -0700
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 by: Paul Rubin - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 15:54 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.

No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support, pick some enclosure
out of a catalog, put the stuff together, get the code running on the
board and test everything, etc. Then send the assembled unit to the
actual deployment site for in situ testing before making more units.

There is always some stuff going wrong or consuming time in any process
like that. Thus there will be some NRE.

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:00:22 -0700
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 by: Paul Rubin - Thu, 23 Mar 2023 16:00 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20
> in a few months. After that, not sure.

You are really willing to spend $300 per box in that quantity? So $6000
or $12000 depending? This sounds very doable.

Where is the deployment site geographically?

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:59 UTC

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 6:06:46 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20 in a
> > few months. After that, not sure.
> We've been here before, but there are many many 'mini PCs' (often Celeron or
> similar low power CPU) coming out of China that have multiple RS232 ports..
> There doesn't seem to be much special about this one.

Yes, but initially I was looking for something more like an Arduino in a box. That never materialized. The solution we are looking at now, is a custom design someone did for another project, that suits our needs, but since the production quantities are low, the unit price is a bit steep, even if manageable.

> If such a 'mini PC' is within your spec (you were talking about
> microcontrollers originally), it's just a case of finding a distributor who
> meets your requirements. Easiest is to just go on Aliexpress [1] and buy
> them, but if that's not your thing then I'm sure there is a US/wherever
> importer.

LOL! Aliexpress is literally the last place I would go for commercial gear..

> If you're going to need many years worth of supply that's a bit trickier,
> since they tend to update the product lines every time Intel releases a new
> chip.
>
> Theo
>
> [1] https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-mini-pc-rs232.html

Useless, since you may not be able to buy the same unit even six months from now.

But thanks for the suggestion. I'm presently talking to Aaeon who has some affordable units.

--

Rick C.

++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 08:02 UTC

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> > If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.
> No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
> Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,

That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially, with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board. Don't know why, but half of them tend to hang, even if after days. Not acceptable.

> pick some enclosure
> out of a catalog, put the stuff together, get the code running on the
> board and test everything, etc. Then send the assembled unit to the
> actual deployment site for in situ testing before making more units.

Sounds great. Do you have a proposal?

> There is always some stuff going wrong or consuming time in any process
> like that. Thus there will be some NRE.

Yeah, I'll just do the software myself. The cost difference between the Arduino and a minature PC is so small, it's more than made up in the savings of not having to do any of the stuff you mentioned other than write software.

--

Rick C.

+++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 08:03 UTC

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:00:35 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> > The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20
> > in a few months. After that, not sure.
> You are really willing to spend $300 per box in that quantity? So $6000
> or $12000 depending? This sounds very doable.
>
> Where is the deployment site geographically?

Multiple. Some are in the DC area.

--

Rick C.

++++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 01:43:45 -0700
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 by: Paul Rubin - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 08:43 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232
> support.

I thought I had located one and posted a link here. I'll look again.

> Sounds great. Do you have a proposal?

I'm open to this but I'm probably not the best person for it, since I'm
mostly a software guy. Do you have a timeframe? I can also check with
other people I know who might be interested, and will refer them to you
by email if they are.

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: HBBroe...@t-online.de (Hans-Bernhard Bröker)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
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 by: Hans-Bernhard Bröke - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 11:44 UTC

Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
>>> If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.
>> No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
>> Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
>
> That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially, with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.

Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232 level
shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford using
ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: 24 Mar 2023 14:20:30 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Theo - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 14:20 UTC

Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> wrote:
> Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
> > On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>> If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.
> >> No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
> >> Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
> >
> > That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232
> > support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially,
> > with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.
>
> Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232 level
> shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford using
> ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?

The problem is that commercial microcontroller boards like Arduinos tend to
have TTL level serial ports (or USB ones). If you want a box holding one of
those with some RS232 ports, you need to make a PCB with a MAX232 and a DB9,
and an enclosure to match. Rick was trying to find a box with all that
already done for him and drew a blank.

It's not the design that's the problem, it's the manufacturing.

Although for quantity 20 at these kind of price points, I might be tempted
to build something using dev boards, eg:
https://www.dfrobot.com/product-1030.html
and maybe a bit of 3D printing for an enclosure. For two of those boards
you might need to hand-patch one to use different pins, but it's not hard
and could be done.

If the customer is willing to pay $300 a unit it might be worth Rick's (or
somebody else's) time to do it. I'll be happy to take that contract, email
address works :-)

Theo

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 15:03 UTC

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-4, Hans-Bernhard Bröker wrote:
> Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
> > On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>> If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.
> >> No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them..
> >> Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
> >
> > That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially, with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.
> Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232 level
> shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford using
> ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?

That's what they used. I simply meant it was not a commercial product on a PCB. Half the units have some problem.

Did you think I meant they designed their own level shifter chip?

--

Rick C.

----- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
----- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 15:08 UTC

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 10:20:37 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:
> Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBr...@t-online.de> wrote:
> > Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
> > > On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
> > >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >>> If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.
> > >> No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
> > >> Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
> > >
> > > That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232
> > > support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially,
> > > with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.
> >
> > Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232 level
> > shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford using
> > ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?
> The problem is that commercial microcontroller boards like Arduinos tend to
> have TTL level serial ports (or USB ones). If you want a box holding one of
> those with some RS232 ports, you need to make a PCB with a MAX232 and a DB9,
> and an enclosure to match. Rick was trying to find a box with all that
> already done for him and drew a blank.
>
> It's not the design that's the problem, it's the manufacturing.
>
> Although for quantity 20 at these kind of price points, I might be tempted
> to build something using dev boards, eg:
> https://www.dfrobot.com/product-1030.html
> and maybe a bit of 3D printing for an enclosure. For two of those boards
> you might need to hand-patch one to use different pins, but it's not hard
> and could be done.

This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on the DB9 is the data output?

> If the customer is willing to pay $300 a unit it might be worth Rick's (or
> somebody else's) time to do it. I'll be happy to take that contract, email
> address works :-)

You will need to post an email address. GG doesn't provide the email. Just HBBr...@t-online.de

--

Rick C.

----+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
----+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: kle...@unibwm.de (Herbert Kleebauer)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 17:16:00 +0100
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 by: Herbert Kleebauer - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 16:16 UTC

On 22.03.2023 20:18, Rick C wrote:

> I was skimming the web for this again and I think I found something from Aaeon. Not sure why I didn't find this before. Maybe I did, but at that time was really looking for something with a simple CPU, rather than something to run a full OS. Beggars and choosers...
>
> https://eshop.aaeon.com/ultra-slim-box-pc-boxer-6405.html
>
> This one is $366, which is more than I'd like, but beggars... It is cheaper than the tailored unit a guy is working on for us. A sample unit doesn't work right and debugging across an ocean is not working very well. I could have this up and running in a day or something, as long as it comes
with Linux installed.

A lot of power consumption for such a task! An Atmel board
would only consume about 0.4 W, for example something like
that:

https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=33
https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=35

The price is crazy, but there should be similar
devices for only 1/5 of this price.

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Theo)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
Date: 24 Mar 2023 16:23:51 +0000 (GMT)
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 by: Theo - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 16:23 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 10:20:37 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:
>
> This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on the DB9 is the data output?

TXD (output of MAX2323ESE) is pin 2, RXD (input of MAX2323ESE) is pin 3.

ie would connect to a PC via a straight-through cable, not a null modem.

> > If the customer is willing to pay $300 a unit it might be worth Rick's (or
> > somebody else's) time to do it. I'll be happy to take that contract, email
> > address works :-)
>
> You will need to post an email address. GG doesn't provide the email. Just HBBr...@t-online.de

My email is on the bottom of http://www.markettos.org.uk/

(I am in the UK, if that makes a difference)

Theo

Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port

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From: kle...@unibwm.de (Herbert Kleebauer)
Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
Subject: Re: Boxed MCU with RS-232 Port
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 by: Herbert Kleebauer - Fri, 24 Mar 2023 17:54 UTC

On 24.03.2023 17:16, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:

> https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=33
> https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=35

The same company (ledato.de, taskit.de) has also an ARM
board with Ubuntu and 2 (or 3) RS232 ports which is cheaper:

https://www.taskit.de/produkte/flex-iot/
https://youtu.be/Fsr8F6B7j0s

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