Starting when I upgraded my 2012 Mini to High Sierra in 2017, I began
having trouble putting it to sleep, sometimes, the display would go
black when I clicked "Sleep," but six seconds later it would come back
to life.

The log had no record that it had waked, meaning it hadn't gone to
sleep. Often I would keep Activity Monitor running to see if something
like Spotlight or Time Machine had been active. I never found an
activity to explain it.

A second click might work, but sometimes I'd end up switching the
monitor off or shutting down the computer. When I migrated to a 2018
Mini, the problem followed.

Recently, I decided to do a clean reinstall. I ordered a Silicon Mini so
I wouldn't be up the creek if something went wrong. It was delivered at
9 PM. I'd been up 16 hours. It needed an upgrade from OS 11 to 12. I
knew that unlike other upgrades, this would stop at two points until a
human clicked. I stayed up.

Then I migrated with Time Machine. I checked the results, and everything
seemed fine. I'd been up 21 hours. I hate the way Apple names your
machine without asking. Now I wanted to back up, and both computers had
the same name. Both TM folders would have the same name, which could
confuse me if I wanted to restore from one or other.

The obvious solution was to rename my Silicon, but in my fatigue, I
blundered. I erased the TM disk so that the 2020 backup would be the
only folder. In fact, it was a lucky mistake.

Now, following Apple's instructions for a re-install, I used Erase
Assistant on the 2018. It warned that it would erase the "contents." I
found that vague.

Surprisingly quickly, OS 12 was ready for setup. I wondered if Erase
Assistant had erased it. If it had, the installation must have come from
Time Machine because the computer had no internet connection. That
wasn't what I'd wanted. I migrated from the new Mini's backup.

The next day on the Silicon, I was asked for my Apple ID for iCloud. I
said no. It said I would have to wait for it to finish. Why had they
been uploading without permission? Why didn't they stop when I said No?

The next time I clicked "Sleep," the screen came back on almost
instantly. Now all three Minis had the affliction.

When I tried to log on at my bank, my username and password were gone.
Three years ago, that happened when I migrated to the 2018 Mini. Then,
12 of 40 passwords disappeared. This time, 32 out of 32 were gone. I
figured they be gone from the 2018, too, because I'd migrated from the
new Mini's backup.

The 2018 had them. That meant they'd been on the new Mini after
migration, when I'd backed up. iCloud's unpermitted upload had come
after that. The 2018 hadn't suffered an iCloud upload because its wifi
wasn't on.

System Preferences says iCloud has 226 photos amounting to 261.3 MB and
1 Apple Book amounting to 1.2 KB. Really? A 1.2 k book? At 64 bits, that
sounds right for 32 URLs, usernames, and passwords.

When you migrate and get the alert requesting your Apple ID for iCloud,
when you decline, the response threatens to remove files from your
computer if you do not comply. When I was confronted in 2018, I was
incredulous. Apparently it's true, and passwords may be the first thing
they remove.

I believe iCloud doesn't work with non-Apple mobile devices, so iCloud
can create a sort of captive tablet and phone market. If they grab files
without being asked, you could soon be paying Apple storage fees. Apple
claims the rights to what they upload from you, and they scan. It
doesn't have client-side encryption, so security is in doubt.

I'm convinced that in 2018 and 2021, Apple removed my passwords without
asking and that they became Apple's property. Maybe the fine print of
the user agreement covers it, but it seems like theft to me.

Further, my experience with Apple Support has led me to believe that
declining to use iCloud has been behind my plague of sleep problems
since 2017. That's another story.

I want to know how to recover my photos and rid all my devices of any
iCloud problems.

On 11/15/21 2:26 PM, J Burns wrote:

Darn! In System Preferences, I clicked "Manage" to see what was in
iCloud. When I closed it, I saw that iCloud drive had been switched back
on. When I deselected it, I was again warned that iCloud needed to
finish up, and files would be removed from my computer. This time I was
offered the option to keep copies, which I chose.

In article <smuc99$7hn$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns@nospam.com>
wrote:

> I believe iCloud doesn't work with non-Apple mobile devices, so iCloud
> can create a sort of captive tablet and phone market.

icloud for windows proves that wrong, as does the web site, which can
be used from any device, including android and linux.

> If they grab files
> without being asked, you could soon be paying Apple storage fees. Apple
> claims the rights to what they upload from you, and they scan. It
> doesn't have client-side encryption, so security is in doubt.

it's end to end encrypted, however, apple does have the keys, which
they will only release under a legitimate subpoena (and with multiple
signoffs).

> I'm convinced that in 2018 and 2021, Apple removed my passwords without
> asking and that they became Apple's property. Maybe the fine print of
> the user agreement covers it, but it seems like theft to me.

they didn't do that, nor could that possibly be considered theft even
if they had.

> Further, my experience with Apple Support has led me to believe that
> declining to use iCloud has been behind my plague of sleep problems
> since 2017. That's another story.

a story without any basis in reality.

> I want to know how to recover my photos and rid all my devices of any
> iCloud problems.

restore from backup.

In message <smuc99$7hn$1@dont-email.me> J Burns <burns@nospam.com> wrote:
> I believe iCloud doesn't work with non-Apple mobile devices

Like so many beliefs, that one is wrong. It certainly works on, for
example, a Microsoft Surface. I do not know, nor do I care, if iCloud
works with Android, but the surface is definitely classified as a mobile
device.

> If they grab files without being asked,

What nonsense is this? iCloud Drive si opt in and only stores the files
you tell it to store.

> Apple
> claims the rights to what they upload from you

Nonsense.

> I'm convinced that in 2018 and 2021, Apple removed my passwords without
> asking

No they didn't.

> Further, my experience with Apple Support has led me to believe that
> declining to use iCloud has been behind my plague of sleep problems
> since 2017. That's another story.

It's an idiotic "fake moon landing" level story. No one is required to
use iCloud and it has nothing to do with device sleep.

--
Oh, he's just like any other man, only more so.

In article <slrnsp685m.226e.g.kreme@m1mini.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> > Apple
> > claims the rights to what they upload from you
>
> Nonsense.

actually, the terms of service states that they have the right to make
copies, as does every other cloud service, because that's what servers
do with files, both for redundancy among multiple drives and to serve
them back to the user (or to other people if so configured).

> > Further, my experience with Apple Support has led me to believe that
> > declining to use iCloud has been behind my plague of sleep problems
> > since 2017. That's another story.
>
> It's an idiotic "fake moon landing" level story.

those are at least highly amusing.

> No one is required to
> use iCloud and it has nothing to do with device sleep.

yep.

On 11/15/21 10:08 PM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <smuc99$7hn$1@dont-email.me> J Burns <burns@nospam.com> wrote:
>> I believe iCloud doesn't work with non-Apple mobile devices
>

>
>> If they grab files without being asked,
>
> What nonsense is this? iCloud Drive si opt in and only stores the files
> you tell it to store.

Fact: They say they have 226 of my photos amounting to 296 MB.
Fact: I never asked to use iCloud.

Fact: They say they have 1.2KB if mine, and I can free up space by
deleting Apple Book's iCloud Drive folder in Finder. Never having seen
any such folder, I asked Spotlight. It came up with a Terms and
Conditions letter from December, 2019.

I remember. I'd just bought an iPad. It told me I should back up to
iCloud, and I said OK. There's never been much of anything on it because
I never found much use for it beyond of course inspecting my car's
muffler by inserting a camera a couple of feet up the tailpipe.

I'd never seen this message or any of the 16 others in the Apple
mailbox. Thanks to Apple's system upgrades, I have approximately 67
mailboxes. I check my inbox for new messages. These must have come
directly to the Apple mailbox, which I didn't know existed. If they'd
been marked unread, I might have noticed them.

The first in this box was in November, 2012, a year after Steve Jobs
died. It asked to verify my new Apple ID and went unanswered. I
remember. I'd had nothing but Macs for 26 years, and now I needed a new
ID to set up my new Mini. Four minutes later, a message welcomed me to
iCloud. If I'd seen it, I would have taken notice because I didn't want
it and knew nothing about it.

They don't claim my 2018 was ever enrolled. The message welcoming my
2020 to iCloud was dated minutes after I first plugged it in. I didn't
the message until the next day, and I was puzzled. When they demand your
Apple ID to set up a computer, apparently they count it as a request for
iCloud.

Find My Mac is among the services they say I signed up for. I remember
they asked if I wanted it and I said no.

Except for backups or an iPad that I've hardly ever opened, I didn't
know I had any tie to iCloud. I certainly didn't ask to upload 226 pictures.

>
>> Apple
>> claims the rights to what they upload from you
>
> Nonsense.

Wikipedia should be thoroughly ashamed of spreading that lie to gullible
readers like me. You should give them a piece of your mind.

>
>> I'm convinced that in 2018 and 2021, Apple removed my passwords without
>> asking
>
> No they didn't.

Fact: I migrated to my 2020 from a backup of my 2018.
Fact: I erased the backup disk and backed up my 2020 on it.
Fact: I erased the 2018 and migrated from the 2020 backup.
Fact: A few hours later, the 2020 had no passwords.
Fact: The 2018 has them, and they must have come from the 2020.

They were on the 2020, and they disappeared, and Apple claims I signed
the 2020 up for iCloud.

Apple's Krissie told me to run a computer in Safe Mode for several days.
It took only seconds. In normal running, I'd merely had trouble putting
it to sleep. In Safe Mode, I was immediately hit with a demand saying
iCloud needed my Apple ID. If I clicked "later," I'd immediately be hit
with a similar demand from Face Time. Clicking "later" would bring
another iCloud demand, and vice versa. The option was to agree, then hit
"cancel" when the form came up for my Apple ID. Hitting "cancel" would
bring another demand for my Apple ID.

Following Krissie's advice brought me up against Apple malware, much
like those web pages where it seems you can't escape without installing
the software they demand.

In Safe Mode, that malware must have come from Apple. It looks as if the
years of sleep problem were to drive me to Krissie so she could guide me
to the malware, and I might provide my ID, which could be used as
permission to upload my files. Missing passwords could also have driven
me to Support, where I'd be told I'd inadvertently uploaded my passowrds

The iPhone scandal showed that Apple doesn't treat all customers the
same. Owners of older phones were targeted. Their phones were slowed to
induce them to buy new phones or new batteries.

In article <sn21c3$j4a$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns@nospam.com>
wrote:

> > What nonsense is this? iCloud Drive si opt in and only stores the files
> > you tell it to store.
>
> Fact: They say they have 226 of my photos amounting to 296 MB.
> Fact: I never asked to use iCloud.

yes you did.

> Fact: They say they have 1.2KB if mine,

1.2 kb is almost nothing.

> and I can free up space by
> deleting Apple Book's iCloud Drive folder in Finder. Never having seen
> any such folder, I asked Spotlight. It came up with a Terms and
> Conditions letter from December, 2019.
>
> I remember. I'd just bought an iPad. It told me I should back up to
> iCloud, and I said OK.

that's where you asked to use icloud.

>
> The iPhone scandal showed that Apple doesn't treat all customers the
> same. Owners of older phones were targeted. Their phones were slowed to
> induce them to buy new phones or new batteries.

no they weren't.

that is yet another conspiracy theory, one which doesn't even make
sense. if apple deliberately slowed down iphones, people would switch
to a competitor.

what apple did was prevent sudden shutdowns due to aging batteries by
limiting peak performance, thereby *extending* the life of the phone,
the very opposite of the conspiracy theory.

On 2021 Nov 16, J Burns wrote
(in article <sn21c3$j4a$1@dont-email.me>):

> On 11/15/21 10:08 PM, Lewis wrote:
> > In message<smuc99$7hn$1@dont-email.me> J Burns<burns@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > I believe iCloud doesn't work with non-Apple mobile devices
>
> >
> > > If they grab files without being asked,
> >
> > What nonsense is this? iCloud Drive si opt in and only stores the files
> > you tell it to store.
>
> Fact: They say they have 226 of my photos amounting to 296 MB.
> Fact: I never asked to use iCloud.

err... you say that you said ‘yes’ when asked about iCloud. You even
repeat that statement below.
>
>
> Fact: They say they have 1.2KB if mine, and I can free up space by
> deleting Apple Book's iCloud Drive folder in Finder. Never having seen
> any such folder, I asked Spotlight. It came up with a Terms and
> Conditions letter from December, 2019.

1.2 kB isn’t much. You can ‘free up space’ by having iCloud use
pointers to the various items it has stored in Apple’s cloud, instead of
having the items, full size, on your system _and_ in Apple’s cloud.
Personally, anything I have stored in a cloudy thing (DropBox, iCloud,
OneDrive) is also on my system. Putting just the pointer saves space, but
slows access, and requires a network connection. But that’s me.
>
>
> I remember. I'd just bought an iPad. It told me I should back up to
> iCloud, and I said OK.

ypu just turned on iCloud. Personally, I back up my various iDevices to a
local computer... and then back up the computer to a local hard drive. And
disconnect the drive after the backup is done. But that’s me.
> There's never been much of anything on it because
> I never found much use for it beyond of course inspecting my car's
> muffler by inserting a camera a couple of feet up the tailpipe.

I have some music, some books, some pics. None is currently in iCloud. The
music and some of the books, the ones in Books, were temporarily there. The
books in Marvin came in via DropBox, and are also now gone from there.
>
>
> I'd never seen this message or any of the 16 others in the Apple
> mailbox. Thanks to Apple's system upgrades, I have approximately 67
> mailboxes.

err... how did you do that?
> I check my inbox for new messages. These must have come
> directly to the Apple mailbox, which I didn't know existed. If they'd
> been marked unread, I might have noticed them.

I suspect a filter... and filters tend to happen only by conscious effort.
>
>
> The first in this box was in November, 2012, a year after Steve Jobs
> died. It asked to verify my new Apple ID and went unanswered. I
> remember. I'd had nothing but Macs for 26 years, and now I needed a new
> ID to set up my new Mini. Four minutes later, a message welcomed me to
> iCloud. If I'd seen it, I would have taken notice because I didn't want
> it and knew nothing about it.

that would be a filter. And there would have been a little badge on mail.
>
>
> They don't claim my 2018 was ever enrolled. The message welcoming my
> 2020 to iCloud was dated minutes after I first plugged it in. I didn't
> the message until the next day, and I was puzzled. When they demand your
> Apple ID to set up a computer, apparently they count it as a request for
> iCloud.

it says ’set up iCloud’ rather explicitly.
>
>
> Find My Mac is among the services they say I signed up for. I remember
> they asked if I wanted it and I said no.
>
> Except for backups or an iPad that I've hardly ever opened, I didn't
> know I had any tie to iCloud. I certainly didn't ask to upload 226 pictures.

they went in automatically when you said ‘yes’ to iCloud. Which you have
admitted that you did.

You can certainly pull the pix off iCloud and close it down at any time.
It’s trivially done.
>
>
> >
> > > Apple
> > > claims the rights to what they upload from you
> >
> > Nonsense.
>
> Wikipedia should be thoroughly ashamed of spreading that lie to gullible
> readers like me. You should give them a piece of your mind.
>
> >
> > > I'm convinced that in 2018 and 2021, Apple removed my passwords without
> > > asking
> >
> > No they didn't.
>
> Fact: I migrated to my 2020 from a backup of my 2018.
> Fact: I erased the backup disk and backed up my 2020 on it.
> Fact: I erased the 2018 and migrated from the 2020 backup.
> Fact: A few hours later, the 2020 had no passwords.
> Fact: The 2018 has them, and they must have come from the 2020.
>
> They were on the 2020, and they disappeared, and Apple claims I signed
> the 2020 up for iCloud.
>
> Apple's Krissie told me to run a computer in Safe Mode for several days.
> It took only seconds. In normal running, I'd merely had trouble putting
> it to sleep. In Safe Mode, I was immediately hit with a demand saying
> iCloud needed my Apple ID. If I clicked "later," I'd immediately be hit
> with a similar demand from Face Time. Clicking "later" would bring
> another iCloud demand, and vice versa. The option was to agree, then hit
> "cancel" when the form came up for my Apple ID. Hitting "cancel" would
> bring another demand for my Apple ID.
>
> Following Krissie's advice brought me up against Apple malware, much
> like those web pages where it seems you can't escape without installing
> the software they demand.
>
> In Safe Mode, that malware must have come from Apple. It looks as if the
> years of sleep problem were to drive me to Krissie so she could guide me
> to the malware, and I might provide my ID, which could be used as
> permission to upload my files. Missing passwords could also have driven
> me to Support, where I'd be told I'd inadvertently uploaded my passowrds
>
> The iPhone scandal showed that Apple doesn't treat all customers the
> same. Owners of older phones were targeted. Their phones were slowed to
> induce them to buy new phones or new batteries.

In message <171120210750530759%nospam@nospam.invalid> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <sn21c3$j4a$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns@nospam.com>
> wrote:

>> > What nonsense is this? iCloud Drive si opt in and only stores the files
>> > you tell it to store.
>>
>> Fact: They say they have 226 of my photos amounting to 296 MB.
>> Fact: I never asked to use iCloud.

> yes you did.

>> Fact: They say they have 1.2KB if mine,

> 1.2 kb is almost nothing.

I have empty folders that are larger than 1.2KB.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but why would anyone want to see Snow White and
the Seven Samurai?"