On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:30:08 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> The saddest, but hopeful thing is when someone is about to die of Covid
>> and begs their anti-vax relatives to not be stupid, and to get
>> vaccinated
>
> no, what's saddest is when they say they have no regrets about not
> being vaccinated, sometimes denying they even have covid.

Anecdotal and uncited "evidence" is being used by you to promote fear.

People take risks all the time, nospam.
It's called making decisions about life.

People buy a gun, a fast car, a motorcycle, insurance levels, etc.
They're all decisions about risk.

It's _hard_ to evaluate risk, nospam.
Nobody knows that better than I do.

I have a degree in this stuff, nospam.
None of you do.

Most of you don't even have a basic college education, nospam.
SO it's no wonder you base your entire belief system on fear anecdotes.

I got the shots, and the booster, nospam.
30 micrograms each (three times!) of pure adulterated mRNA, nospam.

And yet, I don't tell anyone else what to do.
To me, it's "My Body; My Choice" & for you it's "*Your Body; Your Choice*".

To these far-to-the-left wackos, it's "Your body; their choice!"

I'm sure you'll understand that I believe in basic human rights.
And yet, these wackos like Steve clearly do not.

I've noticed wackos like Steve _always_ are taking away your rights.
It's how their kindergarten too-simple fear-based solutions work, nospam.

My _adult_ point is not that they're ignorant (they clearly are).
It's not even that they promote only fear (and not facts).

My adult point is, was, and always has been on this thread that:
*Those most ignorant are the ones telling everyone else what to do*

On 2/13/22 12:02 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> My adult point is, was, and always has been on this thread that:
> *Those most ignorant are the ones telling everyone else what to do*

Oh, how perfect!
Irony: whooshed.

On 2/13/2022 4:00 PM, RocketSurgeon wrote:
> On 2/13/22 12:02 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
>> My adult point is, was, and always has been on this thread that:
>>   *Those most ignorant are the ones telling everyone else what to do*
>
> Oh, how perfect!
> Irony: whooshed.

LOL. Quite the chutzpah.

“When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. It's only difficult for
other people. It's the same when you're stupid.” ― Philippe Geluck

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 16:00:14 -0800, RocketSurgeon wrote:

>> My adult point is, was, and always has been on this thread that:
>> *Those most ignorant are the ones telling everyone else what to do*
>
> Oh, how perfect!
> Irony: whooshed.

Irony for sure.

You are the ignorant one here because I never told anyone what they should do.

I have said: It's YOUR body and YOUR choice. Not mine.

It's _you_ who whooshed.

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 16:00:14 -0800, RocketSurgeon wrote:
>
>>> My adult point is, was, and always has been on this thread that:
>>> *Those most ignorant are the ones telling everyone else what to do*
>>
>> Oh, how perfect!
>> Irony: whooshed.
>
> Irony for sure.
>
> You are the ignorant one here because I never told anyone what they should do.
>
> I have said: It's YOUR body and YOUR choice. Not mine.

In the context of an infectious respiratory disease pandemic, it isn't.
Your body is a potential vector to many other bodies solely through your
actions or inactions. So your choice affects many more people.

Your position is hopelessly simplistic, naive and counter factual.

> It's _you_ who whooshed.

False.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 2/13/2022 4:00 PM, RocketSurgeon wrote:
>> On 2/13/22 12:02 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>>> My adult point is, was, and always has been on this thread that:
>>>   *Those most ignorant are the ones telling everyone else what to do*
>>
>> Oh, how perfect!
>> Irony: whooshed.
>
> LOL. Quite the chutzpah.
>
> “When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. It's only difficult for
> other people. It's the same when you're stupid.” ― Philippe Geluck

Great quote.

On 2/14/2022 5:12 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

> In the context of an infectious respiratory disease pandemic, it isn't.
> Your body is a potential vector to many other bodies solely through your
> actions or inactions. So your choice affects many more people.
>
> Your position is hopelessly simplistic, naive and counter factual.

Additionally, no entity in the U.S. has ever required that anyone be
vaccinated. Everyone is perfectly free to make the choice to not be
vaccinated, and not to wear a mask. No one's "rights" are being
violated. They simply need to be willing to face the consequences of
their decision, and understand that it can affect their employment
status, their ability to travel, and their ability to enter certain
establishments, because protecting the general population is more
important than acknowledging their ignorance.

The ridiculous trucker protest on the U.S.-Canada border was thankfully
ended with only 30 or so arrests, but with a large economic loss, loss
of wages, and supply chain disruption. Then you have nutcase Rand Paul
urging truckers on in the U.S. saying "‘I hope they clog up cities’.

On 2022-02-13 12:02 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:30:08 -0500, nospam wrote:
>
>>> The saddest, but hopeful thing is when someone is about to die of Covid
>>> and begs their anti-vax relatives to not be stupid, and to get
>>> vaccinated
>>
>> no, what's saddest is when they say they have no regrets about not
>> being vaccinated, sometimes denying they even have covid.
>
> Anecdotal and uncited "evidence" is being used by you to promote fear.
>
> People take risks all the time, nospam.
> It's called making decisions about life.
>
> People buy a gun, a fast car, a motorcycle, insurance levels, etc.
> They're all decisions about risk.
>
> It's _hard_ to evaluate risk, nospam.
> Nobody knows that better than I do.
>
> I have a degree in this stuff, nospam.

It seems you have "a degree" in every topic under discussion...

That also seems... ...unlikely.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:12:33 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

>> I have said: It's YOUR body and YOUR choice. Not mine.
>
> In the context of an infectious respiratory disease pandemic, it isn't.

Chris,

Should we lose all our basic human rights over 0.0002% or not, Chris?

I won't call you an idiot because what you just said is something that is
very important to discuss in a modern functional free democratic society.

Stalin, for example, whom David Higton quoted quite a few times, would be
able to decree whatever it is that he, purely intuitively, thought about.

Like you, Steve also claimed that we should lose our freedoms because he is
scared, and that's fine because the _discussion_ is what freedom is about.

I don't disagree with you that it is a common point of contention today:
a. Should we lose our rights because _others_ are scared out of their wits?
b. When it was easily proved those others are completely ignorant of facts?

> Your body is a potential vector to many other bodies solely through your
> actions or inactions. So your choice affects many more people.

My choice is based on the facts.
Your choice is based on ignorance.

That's a _huge_ difference, Chris.

a. You're scared out of your wits (of the unknown)
b. I'm not (because far less is unknown to me)

My rhetorical, rather adult question for you on this topic is:
*Why should I lose all my rights just because ignorant people are scared?*

> Your position is hopelessly simplistic, naive and counter factual.

Ah, but you're the one who knows nothing about virology while I know a lot.
You're also the one who knows nothing about immunology while I know a lot.
And you're the one who knows nothing about genetics while I know much more.

My _adult_ observation is:
*The more ignorant people are, the more scared they are of my rights*

>> It's _you_ who whooshed.
>
> False.

You bring up a great discussion because it's about our basic human rights.
a. Should we lose our rights because _others_ are scared out of their wits?
b. When it was easily proved those others are completely ignorant of facts?

Answer?
Steve === yes
Chris === yes
Me === depends on the actual risk

Bear in mind the risk to a child is 0.0002% of dying of covid.

Should we lose all our basic human rights for 0.0002% or not, Chris?

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 07:18:03 -0800, sms wrote:

> The ridiculous trucker protest on the U.S.-Canada border was thankfully
> ended with only 30 or so arrests, but with a large economic loss, loss
> of wages, and supply chain disruption. Then you have nutcase Rand Paul
> urging truckers on in the U.S. saying "�I hope they clog up cities�.

This is an important adult observation...

Adults will notice these wackos at the extreme far left like Steve can't
_understand_ the common people, who aren't scared shitless like Steve is.

And yet, Steve has an EE degree, not a virology degree.
Steve doesn't have any training in microbiology. None in genetics.
Certainly none in immunology.

This is an important adult question... given...
Steve is ignorant of every fact about Covid we stated in this very thread.

Answer this please:
*Do we really want ignorant people taking away all _our_ rights?*
*Just because _they_ are scared out of their minds!*

> Additionally, no entity in the U.S. has ever required that anyone be
> vaccinated. Everyone is perfectly free to make the choice to not be
> vaccinated, and not to wear a mask. No one's "rights" are being
> violated. They simply need to be willing to face the consequences of
> their decision, and understand that it can affect their employment
> status, their ability to travel, and their ability to enter certain
> establishments, because protecting the general population is more
> important than acknowledging their ignorance.

My _adult_ observation has been:
*The more ignorant people are, the more scared they are of _my_ rights*

The question Steve brings up is all about our basic human rights.
a. Should we lose our rights because _others_ are scared out of their wits?
b. Especially when I proved Steve was completely ignorant of CDC facts!

Answer?
Steve === yes
Chris === yes
Me === depends on the actual risk

FACT: Bear in mind the risk to a child is 0.0002% of dying of covid.

Steve wants us to lose our rights, and yet it was Steve who claimed:
*YOUR BODY _YOUR_ CHOICE*

What happened to Steve's own far-left mantra? Was he bullshitting us?
*Should we lose all our basic human rights for 0.0002% or not?*
--
Those most ignorant about Covid are who try to take away your rights.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 16:10:18 -0800, sms wrote:

>>> My adult point is, was, and always has been on this thread that:
>>> � *Those most ignorant are the ones telling everyone else what to do*
>>
>> Oh, how perfect!
>> Irony: whooshed.
>
> LOL. Quite the chutzpah.

Steve responded in kindergarten fashion but I'm responding as an adult.

I think it's irony that I easily proved Steve didn't know any facts.
Especially since I have a degree in this stuff (among other degrees).

I gave fact, after fact, after fact, many of which come from the CDC.
Yet, Steve brazenly _denied_ that any CDC fact was ever known to him.

Why?
I don't know why.

I suspect that CDC facts aren't what makes Steve come to his conclusions.

And yet, the fact remains, even as Steve denies all facts he simply hates.
*The chance of a child dying of Covid is 0.0002% and that's from the CDC*

The question is valid at what risk level should we lose all our rights?
Steve === you lose all your rights at a 0.0002% risk
Me === You can lose all your rights - but the risk has to outweigh it

Responding to Steve's kindergarten post, my adult observation is that:
a. Those most ignorant about Covid are the ones most scared,
(and that's ok)

b. But those most ignorant are the ones trying to destroy all your rights.
(and that is what is not ok)
--
Like it or not, Covid is here forever - so we need to learn about it.

On 2/14/2022 7:21 AM, Not nospam wrote:

<snip>

> It seems you have "a degree" in every topic under discussion...
>
> That also seems... ...unlikely.

LOL. He also doesn't understand the difference between engaging in risky
behavior where the only danger is to yourself, versus risky behavior
affects the general population. The latter is the behavior that the
government is obligated to regulate.

Note that the government could have mandated Covid-19 vaccinations for
all, there is precedent for this being constitutional. But no
governments did that, at least in the U.S.. Instead they said "you can
choose not to be vaccinated and these are the consequences...." Freedom
of choice doesn't get much better than that.

As to degrees, for $599 you can order a bachelors or masters degree
here: <https://www.ashwooduniversity.net>: "No Need to Take Admission
Exams, No Need To Study, Get Life Experience College Degree for What You
Already Know!" (or in the case of our favorite troll, "for What You
Think You Already Know!").

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:12:33 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>>> I have said: It's YOUR body and YOUR choice. Not mine.
>>
>> In the context of an infectious respiratory disease pandemic, it isn't.
>
> Chris,
>
> Should we lose all our basic human rights over 0.0002% or not, Chris?

That's a false assertion. The 0.0002% are irrelevant as you're so keen to
point out. It's the 10-20% we need to really be careful about or even the
0.1-1%.

Society is about protecting the most vulnerable, not "I won't do X because
it has no benefit to me."

Or do you deny that ~1m Americans were killed by COVID?

You're also not losing your basic human rights. Selfishness is not a basic
right.

Show your workings regarding how you're losing your basic human rights?

On 2/14/2022 7:21 AM, Not nospam wrote:

<snip>

> It seems you have "a degree" in every topic under discussion...
>
> That also seems... ...unlikely.

Reminds me of "Ask Dr. Science," see
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUAsmtfVFXU&t=63s>.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 16:20:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> That's a false assertion. The 0.0002% are irrelevant as you're so keen to
> point out. It's the 10-20% we need to really be careful about or even the
> 0.1-1%.

Chris,

As I have said, I welcome an erudite discussion where I can learn from you.
You haven't ever said anything I didn't know long ago though, Chris.

So tell me something (that's correct, of course) that I don't already know.

Long ago I gave you the chart from January 26th 2022 of the deaths broken
down by age group, from the CDC itself; I'm well aware of the statistics.

> Society is about protecting the most vulnerable, not "I won't do X because
> it has no benefit to me."

We have to weigh how many freedoms won in battle are we going to revoke
because ignorant people like Steve are scared out of their minds, Chris.

> Or do you deny that ~1m Americans were killed by COVID?

Now you are just using a kindergarten argument Chris.
Stop that.

I expect you to act like an adult.
How many freaking times did I quote the number of deaths, Chris?
Many times, right.

I even gave you the CDC site which quoted them, Chris.
So stop assuming that anyone who knows what you don't know doesn't know it.

You are the ignorant one here, Chris.
Not me.

The only way you can rationalize facts is like Steve did.
You demonize anyone who speaks facts that don't play into your belief.

Stop it.
It just means you own the mind of a kindergarten child Chris.

Do you know that people with a real PhD don't do such stupid things, Chris?

> You're also not losing your basic human rights.
> Selfishness is not a basic right.

Again, you're playing kindergarten games Chris.
Stop it.

You have no _adult_ response to my rather erudite observation.

At what risk level do we revoke the freedom of everyone that was won by
hundreds of thousands of dead Americans in wars to preserve those freedoms?
*That's the _adult_ question to ask here, Chris.*
> Show your workings regarding how you're losing your basic human rights?

Do we _force_ people to get a shot they clearly don't want, or not, Chris?
(and yes, losing your job is force)

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 08:22:52 -0800, sms wrote:

>> It seems you have "a degree" in every topic under discussion...
>>
>> That also seems... ...unlikely.
>
> Reminds me of "Ask Dr. Science," see
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUAsmtfVFXU&t=63s>.

Despite Steve's kindergarten response, mine will be that of an adult...

First off, notice _every_ post from Steve is that of a kindergarten child.
Secondly, Steve quotes "Alan Baker" (whom Steve identifies with).

FACT: I have _always_ said, for decades, what my degrees are in.
Those degrees have never changed (why would they).
It's only Alan Baker and Steve who are ignorant of what I've said.
Which, after all, goes with _everything_ they have said to date.

Now back to an intelligent erudite _adult_ discussion of the topic at hand.

The only thing I ask of Steve, who does have an EE degree (as also do I),
where both of us live in the most expensive areas of Silicon Valley
possible, to simply act like an adult for once.

Adults, even on Usenet, are supposed to be smarter than kindergarten kids.
I'm on Usenet to add value, and to receive value.

I'm not on Usenet for mere amusement (which is Alan Baker's only goal).
Tell me something I don't already know, Steve.

A fact perhaps?

The intelligent adult question to ask of Steve, who, as we all know, is a
far-to-the-left Democrat (and that's OK as I'm neither Democrat nor
Republican because I can think for myself, thank you) is this question...

Given that I've proved those most ignorant of Covid...
Are the ones most adamant about what _others_ should do...
Because, out of their ignorance, they're scared of those other people...

*At what risk level do we lose all our hard-won freedoms, Steve*

On 2/14/2022 8:20 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

> You're also not losing your basic human rights. Selfishness is not a basic
> right.
>
> Show your workings regarding how you're losing your basic human rights?

The alt-right loves to scream about "freedom" and "human rights."

In reality, any freedom they've lost during the pandemic is a direct
result of bad decisions that they've made as a result of not
understanding science or statistics. Sadly, those bad decisions also
negatively affect the general population.

No human rights have been lost. The basic human rights are as follows:
1. The right to life
2. The right to freedom from torture
3. The right to equal treatment
4. The right to privacy
5. The right to asylum
6. The right to marry
7. The right to freedom of thought, opinion, and expression
8. The right to work
9. The right to education
10. The right to social services

I guess someone could claim that their right to work has been affected
by employer vaccine mandates, but they can always get a job somewhere
that doesn't have those mandates, so they can still work, just maybe not
at the same pay they've been used to getting.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 2/14/2022 8:20 AM, Chris wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> You're also not losing your basic human rights. Selfishness is not a basic
>> right.
>>
>> Show your workings regarding how you're losing your basic human rights?
>
> The alt-right loves to scream about "freedom" and "human rights."
>
> In reality, any freedom they've lost during the pandemic is a direct
> result of bad decisions that they've made as a result of not
> understanding science or statistics. Sadly, those bad decisions also
> negatively affect the general population.
>
> No human rights have been lost. The basic human rights are as follows:
> 1. The right to life
> 2. The right to freedom from torture
> 3. The right to equal treatment
> 4. The right to privacy
> 5. The right to asylum
> 6. The right to marry
> 7. The right to freedom of thought, opinion, and expression
> 8. The right to work
> 9. The right to education
> 10. The right to social services
>
> I guess someone could claim that their right to work has been affected
> by employer vaccine mandates, but they can always get a job somewhere
> that doesn't have those mandates, so they can still work, just maybe not
> at the same pay they've been used to getting.

Exactly. You have no right to a specific job but you cannot be denied the
opportunity to work.

On 2/14/2022 10:12 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

> Exactly. You have no right to a specific job but you cannot be denied the
> opportunity to work.

Love this cartoon: <https://ifunny.co/picture/QJ4iDHL19>.
“Don't look at it as being fired for refusing to get vaccinated, look at
it as an opportunity 'to get one of those minimum-wage jobs you think
everyone should be so grateful for.”

“Above all, do not lie to yourself. A man who lies to himself and
listens to his own lie comes to a point where he does not discern any
truth either in himself or anywhere around him, and thus falls into
disrespect towards himself and others.” ― Fyodor Dostoevsky

Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 16:20:12 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>> That's a false assertion. The 0.0002% are irrelevant as you're so keen to
>> point out. It's the 10-20% we need to really be careful about or even the
>> 0.1-1%.
>
> Long ago I gave you the chart from January 26th 2022 of the deaths broken
> down by age group, from the CDC itself; I'm well aware of the statistics.

Why do you pretend otherwise and focus on 0.0002%, then?

>> Society is about protecting the most vulnerable, not "I won't do X because
>> it has no benefit to me."
>
> We have to weigh how many freedoms won in battle are we going to revoke
> because ignorant people like Steve are scared out of their minds, Chris.

Remind me. Which battle was won for the right to reject vaccines?

>> Or do you deny that ~1m Americans were killed by COVID?
>
> Now you are just using a kindergarten argument Chris.
> Stop that.

Just answer the question. You're continually trying to diminish the
seriousness of COVID by focusing on the minutiae. It's an utterly relevant
question.

Stop getting defensive.

> Do you know that people with a real PhD don't do such stupid things, Chris?

You have no idea! :)

>> Show your workings regarding how you're losing your basic human rights?
>
> Do we _force_ people to get a shot they clearly don't want, or not, Chris?

Show me where not wanting something is enshrined in human rights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

> (and yes, losing your job is force)

(No it isn't)

Whereas denying the vulnerable good health and risking their lives is
clearly a breach of their human rights.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 18:56:39 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

>> Long ago I gave you the chart from January 26th 2022 of the deaths broken
>> down by age group, from the CDC itself; I'm well aware of the statistics.
>
> Why do you pretend otherwise and focus on 0.0002%, then?

I never "pretended" that, you moron.
I stated _many_ times how many people in the USA died of Covid, Chris.

You _fabricate_ your entire belief system, Chris.
Everything you claim is fabricated out of exactly _zero_ facts.

Do you know _why_ you just did that, Chris?
I do.

You _hate_ that you have no _adult_ response to the facts I present.

This is an adult observation, Chris, of what happens to all ignorant people
like you are, and like Steve is, and like most people happen to be (IMHO).

1. People who are ignorant can still often hold fears very dear to them.
2. Hence, all their arguments, are ignorant, but they're more about fear.
3. They don't actually incorporate facts into their belief systems.

That's you, Chris.
And Steve.

And that's fine.
People are allowed to own purely fear based ignorant belief systems, Chris.

The only time I give a shit is when you're _forcing_ others to be like you.
*The most ignorant people are those most wanting to take away our rights*
Given ignorance === fear, you can say that same statement yet another way:
*The most fear-filled people are those most taking away our rights*

That's you.
That's Steve.
That's not me.

I _believe_ in the Democrat's oft-claimed slogan:
"My Body, My Choice"
"Your Body, Your Choice"

I'm not telling you what to do, Chris.
I'm telling you the facts.

You decide what to do for yourself.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 09:56:00 -0800, sms wrote:

> The alt-right loves to scream about "freedom" and "human rights."

Is Steve actually claiming that only the "alt-right" cares about freedom?

Is Steve really that wacko?

Seriously?
--
The only way Steve can process logical people is to demonize them.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:33:59 -0800, sms wrote:

> Love this cartoon: <https://ifunny.co/picture/QJ4iDHL19>.
> Don't look at it as being fired for refusing to get vaccinated, look at
> it as an opportunity 'to get one of those minimum-wage jobs you think
> everyone should be so grateful for.

Does Steve really believe everyone who understands Covid is to be ridiculed?

Is Steve really that wacko?

Seriously?
--
The only way Steve can process logical people is to demonize them.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 18:12:57 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Exactly. You have no right to a specific job but you cannot be denied the
> opportunity to work.

Chris,

I probably don't have much more than an average intelligence, but if you
can't see what Steve is doing, then you lack the powers that I have.

Steve has to _demonize_ every person who thinks logically.
Because logical thinkers think _differently_ than does Steve.

Steve has the same reaction to all problems (e.g., gun violence).
a. Steve comes up with a too simple (kindergarten) solution
b. Then Steve tries to take away your rights
c. Because Steve is both ignorant, and scared (scared out of his mind)

Steve's entire belief system is based on what I just said above.
Fear. Ignorance. Removal of rights.

Look!
Look at _every_ statement from Steve.

He _exudes_ those three things, Chris.
a. Fear
b. Ignorance
c. Taking away your rights

Whenever Steve is confronted with someone who is logical, he demonizes them.
Can't you see this Chris?

Can't you see Steve ridicules everyone who uses facts, and not fear.
You don't see this, Chris?

Really?
Are you serious?

You don't see Steve ridicules everyone who based their beliefs on facts?
I do.

If you can't see this, then you're dumber than I thought, Chris.
Every word out of Steve's mouth is to demonize people who think logically.

He can't control them by fear.
He can only control them by taking away their rights.

You don't see this?
I do.

Every word out of Steve's mouth is to demonize people who think logically.

He can't control fact-based people by fear alone.
He can only control them by taking away their rights.

You don't see this?
I do.
--
I can easily predict Steve's arguments even before the thread is opened.