In article <slrnt31n29.74d.g.kreme@zephyrus.local>,
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.don-t-email-me.com> wrote:
....
>Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>reasons not to use it.

I think you are confusing the telnet program and the telnet protocol (and
daemon). Yes, the concept of running the telnet daemon to allow remote
access is pretty much dead (although I still have a set of machines that
still use it), but the client program is still alive and well and useful.

And, yes, I do mean to indicate that there is a difference between the
telnet protocol and the telnet daemon.

>I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>for the first time.

Good for you! Treat yourself to a cookie!

--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough
men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1@gioia.aioe.org> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>
>>>> except when it is not
>>>
>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>
>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>
> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
> reasons not to use it.
>
> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
> for the first time.

Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.

The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
without using the telnet protocol at all.

For example, "telnet hostname 22" tells you whether "hostname" is
running an ssh server, and prints a string indicating the version of the
server.

Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
research).

And yes, there are ways to do the same thing with other commands. I'll
probably continue using telnet for this purpose just because of muscle
memory.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

In message <87o8273s4w.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1@gioia.aioe.org> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>>
>>>>> except when it is not
>>>>
>>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>
>>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>
>> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>> reasons not to use it.
>>
>> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>> for the first time.

> Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.

> The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
> port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
> can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
> without using the telnet protocol at all.

There are better tools.

> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
> research).

If it's important to you it is trivial to install. Hint: There's no ftp
either. Nor is there python 2. Don't think there's perl either, but it's
been decades since I used perl.

--
What's another word for Thesaurus?

Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
> In message <87o8273s4w.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>>> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1@gioia.aioe.org> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> except when it is not
>>>>>
>>>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>>
>>>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>>
>>> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>>> reasons not to use it.
>>>
>>> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>>> for the first time.
>
>> Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.
>
>> The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
>> port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
>> can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
>> without using the telnet protocol at all.
>
> There are better tools.

No doubt. That wasn't my point.

>> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
>> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
>> research).
>
> If it's important to you it is trivial to install. Hint: There's no ftp
> either. Nor is there python 2. Don't think there's perl either, but it's
> been decades since I used perl.

I already have a telnet command on my Ubuntu system. (I don't remember
whether it was preinstalled.) If I were a Mac user, I could either
install telnet or use something else.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 21:30:49 -0800
Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think it's time to argue to our company to abandon Macs except
> to run VirtualBox to run Linux.

The gadget you want is Multipass.

https://ubuntu.com/server/docs/virtualization-multipass

My information might be out of date, but 5 years ago VirtualBox used
25% of the CPU just sitting idle. I do the majority of my work on
Linux using a Mac as an X11 server and GUI. I've been happy with
Multipass for several months, although VMware is still installed and
sees use from time to time.

--jkl

Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Years ago I pushed our company to use Macs. Core Image,
> Quicktime, Apache, and so much software we needed came
> preinstalled. XCode was okay, especially when it could edit RTFs.
> And we previously used MPW on System 7.
>
> I tried to use telnet a few days and it's gone. Telnet is
> programmer tool that let's programmer explore most network
> protocols by hand. It's real useful for programmers and doesn't
> cost other customers when they don't use it.

Long ago Apple began the process of deprecating most commandline utilities,
libraries, and other third-party FOSS software as they were unable or
unwilling to keep them updated. Every release various things disappear, but
it's been a long, drawn-out process. One of the most intrusive changes, even
for those buildings native macOS GUI apps, was the removal of OpenSSL
headers, but because it was OpenSSL 0.9.8 (difficult and some cases
impossible to backport security fixes for in an API- and ABI-compatible
manner) nobody could reasonably fault them for it.

I'm surprised you're only now noticing. I also noticed the recent removal of
telnet, but it wasn't entirely unexpected. (Still annoying for those of us
habituated to telnet'ing to line-based services while hacking, debugging,
and poking around.) Notably next up on the chopping block, at least for the
base install, is Python:
https://www.macrumors.com/2022/01/28/apple-removing-python-2-in-macos-12-3.
I never use Python so won't notice. There are quite a few macOS utilites
implemented in Perl, so hopefully Perl won't be going away anytime soon, but
it's also technically deprecated. Tcl was removed awhile ago.

IME working at various tech companies using MacBooks as standard issue, most
developers use Brew to supplement or replace the installed environment. I
prefer MacPorts, but Brew is so ubiquitous that it's even how some teams
publish internal (nominally open source'd) tools.

> I lost my 10.7 laptop which finally went the way of all silicon
> flesh. I got 11.6 replacement, and my life has been hell on it.
> Nothing is straightforward. XCode is hopeless. We've already
> partially ported to Linux with ffmpeg replacing the dead
> Quicktime and imagemagick Core Image.

I recently began doing GUI development on macOS and I must say that, even
though much of the process is confusing and under-documented (in general,
not just the command-line interfaces), the XCode toolchain still works well
from the command-line and is clearly maintained by the toolchain engineers.
I can both build fat binaries (CFLAGS += -arch arm64 -arch x86_64) and sign
the resulting binaries (codesign(1)) from a relatively simple Makefile.

On Mar 15, 2022 at 5:22:38 PM PDT, "Lewis" <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me>
wrote:
>
>
> If it's important to you it is trivial to install. Hint: There's no ftp
> either. Nor is there python 2. Don't think there's perl either, but it's
> been decades since I used perl.

% /usr/bin/perl -v

This is perl 5, version 30, subversion 3 (v5.30.3) built for
darwin-thread-multi-2level
(with 2 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail)

Copyright 1987-2020, Larry Wall

Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the
GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit.

Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be found on
this system using "man perl" or "perldoc perl". If you have access to the
Internet, point your browser at http://www.perl.org/, the Perl Home Page.
--
Jim Gibson

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:27:58 -0700, Keith Thompson wrote:

> I already have a telnet command on my Ubuntu system. (I don't remember
> whether it was preinstalled.) If I were a Mac user, I could either
> install telnet or use something else.

If it doesn't rub them the wrong way to do so, in bash,
they could:

$ alias telnet='nc -v'

or other shell expression of their choosing. Then when they try

$ telnet mail.example.com 25

It will act like one expects, because "nc -v mail.example.com 25"
is the valid nc command.

But any further than that, some users may want to just learn
nc, which can use UDP sockets, use Unix sockets, and can
listen for connections as well as create them.

Or even...

$ telnet() { echo Please use nc.; }

fu2: comp.sys.mac.system because it really is specific to MacOS.

And finally: The man page for nc on our iMac has some
Apple-specific options, which I assume are handy for crafty
systems programming on Macs.

[--apple-delegate-pid pid] [--apple-delegate-uuid uuid]
[--apple-ext-bk-idle] [--apple-nowakefromsleep]
[--apple-ecn mode]

--
-v

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 14:27:59 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>
>>>> except when it is not
>>>>
>>>
>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>
>>If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>
>
>I'd point out that nc (nee netcat) has been a useful network debugging
>tool for a quarter of a century. telnet (as a protocol) is, as I am sure
>you are aware, quite insecure. Unix telnet also open source, so one could
>quite simply compile it on MacOS if one really requires it and nc
>isn't sufficient.

Or just install it with brew. netcat is a sledgehammer for a nut in most cases
and has long been superceeded by wireshark for packet sniffing anyway.

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:34:49 -0000 (UTC)
Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1@gioia.aioe.org> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>
>>>> except when it is not
>>>>
>>>
>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>
>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>
>Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>reasons not to use it.
>
>I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>for the first time.

Apparently you don't understand the difference between the telnet server and
client. Thanks for playing.

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.mac.system.]
On 2022-03-15, Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1@gioia.aioe.org> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>>
>>>>> except when it is not
>>>>
>>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>
>>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>
>> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>> reasons not to use it.
>>
>> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>> for the first time.
>
> Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.
>
> The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
> port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
> can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
> without using the telnet protocol at all.
>
> For example, "telnet hostname 22" tells you whether "hostname" is
> running an ssh server, and prints a string indicating the version of the
> server.
>
> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
> research).
>
> And yes, there are ways to do the same thing with other commands. I'll
> probably continue using telnet for this purpose just because of muscle
> memory.
>
you could make a shell alias or function

In message <87k0cu4u7l.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
> else.

Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
macOS?

--
Schroedinger's Cat is <blink>not</blink> dead.
The only allowed use of the BLINK tag

Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> why the fuck are you complaining

Have you always been this obnoxious or did you take a course?

--
fold, spindle, mutilate.

Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 14:27:59 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>Muttley@dastardlyhq.com writes:
>>>On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>>Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>>
>>>>> except when it is not
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>>
>>>If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>>there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>>
>>
>>I'd point out that nc (nee netcat) has been a useful network debugging
>>tool for a quarter of a century. telnet (as a protocol) is, as I am sure
>>you are aware, quite insecure. Unix telnet also open source, so one could
>>quite simply compile it on MacOS if one really requires it and nc
>>isn't sufficient.
>
> Or just install it with brew. netcat is a sledgehammer for a nut in most cases
> and has long been superceeded by wireshark for packet sniffing anyway.

Netcat is a mostly a tool for connecting and talking to TCP servers. For
historical reasons, it's also a port scanner. It's positively incapable
of packet sniffing.

Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> writes:
> Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:
>> In message <t0q4gh$9lt$1@gioia.aioe.org> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 10:19:25 -0700
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>On 2022-03-14 9:54 a.m., Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>> On 3/13/22 14:18, vallor wrote:
>>>>>> telnet is deprecated.
>>>>>
>>>>> except when it is not
>>>>
>>>>Say something more meaningful than that, huh?
>>
>>> If you don't know why telnet is an extremely useful network debugging tool
>>> there's little point trying to explain it to you.
>>
>> Telnet had its day. There;s no reason to use it now and very good
>> reasons not to use it.
>>
>> I closed the telnet port on all my servers in 1998 when I got ssh setup
>> for the first time.
>
> Nobody is suggesting continuing to use the telnet port (23) or protocol.
>
> The telnet *command* was originally designed to be used with the telnet
> port and protocol, but with the ability to specify a non-default port it
> can still be useful as a quick and dirty way to query a different port,
> without using the telnet protocol at all.
>
> For example, "telnet hostname 22" tells you whether "hostname" is
> running an ssh server, and prints a string indicating the version of the
> server.
>
> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
> research).

Windows, obviously, since ages. The last time I looked (years ago), it
still shipped with a telnet client but - for some reasons entirly beyond
human comprehension - had to be enabled before it could be used.

On 3/16/22 07:14, Lewis wrote:
> In message <87k0cu4u7l.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
>> else.
>
> Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
> macOS?

Are you sure you aren't confusing him with someone else. I did a search
of this thread and didn't fine any such complaints coming from Keith.
The only such complaint I did see was the one that started this thread,
from Siri Cruise.

Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> writes:

> In message <87k0cu4u7l.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
>> else.
>
> Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
> macOS?

He isn't. Get you facts straight, particularly if you are going to go
off on one.

--
Ben.

In message <t0suog$8ti$1@dont-email.me> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On 3/16/22 07:14, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <87k0cu4u7l.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
>>> else.
>>
>> Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
>> macOS?

> Are you sure you aren't confusing him with someone else. I did a search
> of this thread and didn't fine any such complaints coming from Keith.
> The only such complaint I did see was the one that started this thread,
> from Siri Cruise.

Could be then. Still seems odd since the thread is about telnet on macOS
(or rather the lack of it) for someone who does not use the Mac to jump
in.

--
'It's easy to hold everything in common when no one's got anything.'

On 3/16/22 12:16, Lewis wrote:
> In message <t0suog$8ti$1@dont-email.me> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> On 3/16/22 07:14, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <87k0cu4u7l.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
>>>> else.
>>>
>>> Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
>>> macOS?
>
>> Are you sure you aren't confusing him with someone else. I did a search
>> of this thread and didn't fine any such complaints coming from Keith.
>> The only such complaint I did see was the one that started this thread,
>> from Siri Cruise.
>
> Could be then. Still seems odd since the thread is about telnet on macOS
> (or rather the lack of it) for someone who does not use the Mac to jump
> in.

This thread is posted not only on comp.sys.mac.system, but also on two
other groups that are not Mac-specific - in fact, the original message
was posted only to those other two groups. The thread drifted over to a
general discussion about telnet being obsolete, and he joined the thread
to comment on that issue.

In article <t0t2v9$frf$1@dont-email.me>,
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
....
>> Could be then. Still seems odd since the thread is about telnet on
>> macOS (or rather the lack of it) for someone who does not use the Mac
>> to jump in.
>
>
>This thread is posted not only on comp.sys.mac.system, but also on two
>other groups that are not Mac-specific - in fact, the original message
>was posted only to those other two groups. The thread drifted over to
>a general discussion about telnet being obsolete, and he joined the
>thread to comment on that issue.

This is what happens when people don't change Subject titles as a thread
progresses. I cannot stress how important it is to do that.

Also note: I'm reading and posting from comp.unix.programmer.

--
If there is anything more pathetic than Dr. Donald Trump, MD, giving out medical
advice, it is the pathetic followers of Dr. Trump trying to implement said advice.

James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
> On 3/16/22 12:16, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <t0suog$8ti$1@dont-email.me> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>> On 3/16/22 07:14, Lewis wrote:
>>>> In message <87k0cu4u7l.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> If I were a Mac user, I could either install telnet or use something
>>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> Then why the fuck are you complaining that there is no telnet client in
>>>> macOS?
>>
>>> Are you sure you aren't confusing him with someone else. I did a search
>>> of this thread and didn't fine any such complaints coming from Keith.
>>> The only such complaint I did see was the one that started this thread,
>>> from Siri Cruise.
>>
>> Could be then. Still seems odd since the thread is about telnet on macOS
>> (or rather the lack of it) for someone who does not use the Mac to jump
>> in.
>
> This thread is posted not only on comp.sys.mac.system, but also on two
> other groups that are not Mac-specific - in fact, the original message
> was posted only to those other two groups. The thread drifted over to a
> general discussion about telnet being obsolete, and he joined the thread
> to comment on that issue.

Exactly.

Lewis, try being less rude. You might also consider paying more
attention to who said what, but that's no excuse.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:21:10 +0000
Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@talktalk.net> wrote:
>Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> writes:
>> For example, "telnet hostname 22" tells you whether "hostname" is
>> running an ssh server, and prints a string indicating the version of the
>> server.
>>
>> Apparently Apple has decided to deprecate the telnet command. I've seen
>> no indication that anyone else has done so (though I haven't done any
>> research).
>
>Windows, obviously, since ages. The last time I looked (years ago), it
>still shipped with a telnet client but - for some reasons entirly beyond
>human comprehension - had to be enabled before it could be used.

The Windows telnet client was and remains junk - line mode doesn't work
properly. This would be easy to fix so clearly they never wanted it to work
properly.