On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:

>On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>
>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>
>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>> phones in the home.
>>
>Snip
>>
>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>
>This is misleading.
>With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>backup battery.

I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
life.

Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.

The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
about being hit by lightning.

On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
>
>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>
>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>
>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>>> phones in the home.
>>>
>> Snip
>>>
>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>
>> This is misleading.
>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>> backup battery.
>
> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
> life.
>
> Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
> last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.
>
> The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
> for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
> about being hit by lightning.

105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.

I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>>
>>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>>>> phones in the home.
>>>>
>>> Snip
>>>>
>>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>>
>>> This is misleading.
>>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>>> backup battery.
>>
>> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
>> life.
>>
>> Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
>> last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.
>>
>> The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
>> for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
>> about being hit by lightning.
>
> 105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
> highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
> roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
> and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.
>
> I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.
>

In my experience, it is impossible to get through to the power company in
the event of a power cut, because everyone else is trying to do the same
thing.

On 04/08/2023 11:15, Tweed wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> 105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
>> highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
>> roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
>> and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.
>>
>> I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.
>>
>
> In my experience, it is impossible to get through to the power company in
> the event of a power cut, because everyone else is trying to do the same
> thing.

I've never had a long wait with Electricty North West.

On 04/08/2023 11:15, Tweed wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>> On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <MikeS@fred.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
>>>>> John Geddes <jgwinster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
>>>>>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
>>>>> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
>>>>> phones in the home.
>>>>>
>>>> Snip
>>>>> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now.
>>>>>
>>>> This is misleading.
>>>> With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
>>>> VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
>>>> backup battery.
>>> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
>>> life.
>>>
>>> Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
>>> last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.
>>>
>>> The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
>>> for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
>>> about being hit by lightning.
>> 105 is not 999, but it can be seen as an emergency number, which is
>> highly likely to be needed when there is a power cut, and would not use
>> roaming. We have several power cuts a year, usually short, no mobile data,
>> and I have an ancient unpowered POTS phone ready to use when they happen.
>>
>> I tried 105 on my mobile phone recently, and it does go straight to ENWL.
>>
> In my experience, it is impossible to get through to the power company in
> the event of a power cut, because everyone else is trying to do the same
> thing.
>
Yes, and it's pointless in those sort of power cuts, because IMHO the
DNO's telemetry picks up the issue straight away, and it's on the
tracker app within seconds.

For smaller power cuts (like a handful of homes) then the telemetry
probably won't, but it doesn't matter, because you will be able to get
through !

On Friday, 4 August 2023 at 09:57:39 UTC+1, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2023 08:39:48 +0100, MikeS <Mi...@fred.com> wrote:
>
> >On 04/08/2023 08:14, Chris wrote:
> >> John Geddes <jgwi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Can anyone point me to a coverage map that shows where one should be able
> >>> to make a 999 call from inside a building using a mobile phone?
> >>>
> >>> With the end of landline voice calls coming up,
> >>
> >> This is not happening. POTS may be going but people will still have wired
> >> phones in the home.
> >>
> >Snip
> >>
> >> No need to depend on their mobile they can use their home phone as now..
> >>
> >This is misleading.
> >With the end of the analogue (POTS) system all landline calls will use
> >VoIP. That will only operate with the local mains supply on or a working
> >backup battery.
> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
> life.

Not so lucky, assorted RTA's, crimes, injured persons and fires.

>
> Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over the
> last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network issues.

Very lucky only three [involuntary] minutes of power outage in 48 years, during which my mobile stayed up (because I was on a call). I actually thought my partner had tripped our RCD [again], because I was also using my tablet and back-up lights came on, until I looked out of the window and noticed it was pitch black

>
> The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile signal
> for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry more
> about being hit by lightning.

Not done the stats, but both less than 10**-6 chance a strike and 10**-7 chance of death per annum
"30-60 people are struck by lightning each year in Britain, and on average, 3 (5-10%) of these strikes are fatal."

On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
> life. Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over
> the last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network
> issues. The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile
> signal for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry
> more about being hit by lightning.

The mains supply here is reliable but I have been at places where that
is not the case. I was visiting friend one Christmas when we lost mains
power, landline telephone and mobile phone coverage for several days.
Fortunately it was in a town but a much bigger problem in a rural area
where more likely to happen.

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 08:19:53 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 04/08/2023 09:57, Chris in Makati wrote:
>> I can only remember having to make one or two 999 calls in my entire
>> life. Our home broadband has been down for perhaps 3 hours in total over
>> the last 5 years, either because of power interruptions or network
>> issues. The chances of both the above coinciding AND not have a mobile
>> signal for some reason are not zero, but are vanishingly small. I worry
>> more about being hit by lightning.
>
>
>The mains supply here is reliable but I have been at places where that
>is not the case. I was visiting friend one Christmas when we lost mains
>power, landline telephone and mobile phone coverage for several days.
>Fortunately it was in a town but a much bigger problem in a rural area
>where more likely to happen.

How many 999 calls did you need to make in those few days but were
unable to do so?

On 10/08/2023 09:32, Chris in Makati wrote:
> How many 999 calls did you need to make in those few days but were
> unable to do so?

Not sure of the relevance of that?

>
> The mains supply here is reliable but I have been at places where that
> is not the case.  I was visiting friend one Christmas when we lost mains
> power, landline telephone and mobile phone coverage for several days.
> Fortunately it was in a town but a much bigger problem in a rural area
> where more likely to happen.
>
>

Where did this happen ? I was under the impression that BTOR would
deploy portable emergency generators at those "exchanges" with no built
in facilities.

--
random signature text inserted here

On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 12:03:17 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 10/08/2023 09:32, Chris in Makati wrote:
>> How many 999 calls did you need to make in those few days but were
>> unable to do so?
>
>
>
>Not sure of the relevance of that?

It's relevant to my post which you commented on. The one in which I
suggested the chances of having a power failure AND your home
broadband down AND no mobile phone signal AND needing to make a 999
call all at the same time are vanishingly small.

You said you'd had three out of those four things happened
simultaneously, so I wondered whether the fifth occurred as well.

Chris

On Friday, 11 August 2023 at 13:50:03 UTC+1, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2023 12:03:17 +0100, MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
> >On 10/08/2023 09:32, Chris in Makati wrote:
> >> How many 999 calls did you need to make in those few days but were
> >> unable to do so?
> >
> >
> >
> >Not sure of the relevance of that?
> It's relevant to my post which you commented on. The one in which I
> suggested the chances of having a power failure AND your home
> broadband down AND no mobile phone signal AND needing to make a 999
> call all at the same time are vanishingly small.
>
> You said you'd had three out of those four things happened
> simultaneously, so I wondered whether the fifth occurred as well.
>
> Chris

Well a major flood could lead to all these - they are not mutually exclusive risks.

Indeed a wildfire in Hawaii caused all of these with a woman [on BBC news] complaining that the power, and mobiles were out (mast burnt out) and some people needed urgent treatment for burns.

Although fibre would decrease the likelihood of landline phone failure in a flood conditions I doubt our local exchange would still operate after submersion.

On 12/08/2023 12:46, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Well a major flood could lead to all these - they are not mutually exclusive risks.

Whilst I agree that major disasters can create a common cause of all
these problems...

> Although fibre would decrease the likelihood of landline phone failure in a flood conditions I doubt our local exchange would still operate after submersion.

Your local exchange will cease to operate once the switch to fibre is
complete, even without a disaster, although I do wonder if lessons are
being learned from Ukraine, as the further you are from you local
exchange, the more likely it is under the control of a different country.

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/08/2023 12:46, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Well a major flood could lead to all these - they are not mutually exclusive risks.
>
> Whilst I agree that major disasters can create a common cause of all
> these problems...
>
>> Although fibre would decrease the likelihood of landline phone failure
>> in a flood conditions I doubt our local exchange would still operate after submersion.
>
> Your local exchange will cease to operate once the switch to fibre is
> complete, even without a disaster, although I do wonder if lessons are
> being learned from Ukraine, as the further you are from you local
> exchange, the more likely it is under the control of a different country.
>
>

You mean the inhabitants of Berwick upon Tweed should be worried?

On 10/08/2023 12:45, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
> Where did this happen ? I was under the impression that BTOR would
> deploy portable emergency generators at those "exchanges" with no built
> in facilities.

That is OK when one site lost power but more difficult when dozens lose
power unless they keep a large stock of generators and in that case they
might as well just install one at every site as was the case with the
previous emergency services radio networks.

On 13/08/2023 07:54, MB wrote:
> On 10/08/2023 12:45, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
>> Where did this happen ? I was under the impression that BTOR would
>> deploy portable emergency generators at those "exchanges" with no
>> built in facilities.
>
>
> That is OK when one site lost power but more difficult when dozens lose
> power unless they keep a large stock of generators and in that case they
> might as well just install one at every site as was the case with the
> previous emergency services radio networks.
>
>

And at one time thats exactly what they did - a lot of the massive
battery rooms were "rationalised" to much smaller batteries and
permanent diesel generators were fitted to take up the slack.

--
random signature text inserted here

On Sun 13/08/2023 08:38, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
> On 13/08/2023 07:54, MB wrote:
>> On 10/08/2023 12:45, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
>>> Where did this happen ? I was under the impression that BTOR would
>>> deploy portable emergency generators at those "exchanges" with no
>>> built in facilities.
>>
>>
>> That is OK when one site lost power but more difficult when dozens
>> lose power unless they keep a large stock of generators and in that
>> case they might as well just install one at every site as was the case
>> with the previous emergency services radio networks.
>>
>>
>
>
> And at one time thats exactly what they did - a lot of the massive
> battery rooms were "rationalised" to much smaller batteries and
> permanent diesel generators were fitted to take up the slack.
>
>

Surprisingly many of those 'diesel' generators were actually gas
powered. Perhaps diesel on big sites, but small switches and radio link
sites gas was preferred. Some had the Propane cylinders inside, others
outside in a secure cage.

Chris in Makati wrote:

> It's relevant to my post which you commented on. The one in which I
> suggested the chances of having a power failure AND your home broadband
> down AND no mobile phone signal AND needing to make a 999 call all at
> the same time are vanishingly small.

The point where someone suggested each person only calls 999 a couple of
times during their lifetime isn't far removed from saying we might as
well scrap 999 calls.

On Sun, 13 Aug 2023 13:07:37 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Chris in Makati wrote:
>
>> It's relevant to my post which you commented on. The one in which I
>> suggested the chances of having a power failure AND your home broadband
>> down AND no mobile phone signal AND needing to make a 999 call all at
>> the same time are vanishingly small.
>
>The point where someone suggested each person only calls 999 a couple of
>times during their lifetime isn't far removed from saying we might as
>well scrap 999 calls.

I didn't say "each person" only makes a couple of 999 calls in their
lifetime. I said I can only remember ever making one or two 999 calls
myself.

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that the 999 service should be
scrapped. That would be quite ridiculous.

On Sunday, 13 August 2023 at 13:07:40 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> Chris in Makati wrote:
>
> > It's relevant to my post which you commented on. The one in which I
> > suggested the chances of having a power failure AND your home broadband
> > down AND no mobile phone signal AND needing to make a 999 call all at
> > the same time are vanishingly small.
> The point where someone suggested each person only calls 999 a couple of
> times during their lifetime isn't far removed from saying we might as
> well scrap 999 calls.

At least half a dozen times, probably at least ten, plus five occasions getting emergency assistance in person - 1 fire, 1 ambulance and 3 police (two resulting in arrests :-) )

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris in Makati wrote:
>
>> It's relevant to my post which you commented on. The one in which I
>> suggested the chances of having a power failure AND your home broadband
>> down AND no mobile phone signal AND needing to make a 999 call all at
>> the same time are vanishingly small.
>
> The point where someone suggested each person only calls 999 a couple of
> times during their lifetime isn't far removed from saying we might as
> well scrap 999 calls.

That's obviously a ridiculous interpretation.